View Full Version : Hunting a sub with the FFG?
Not sure if this was ask but is there a way that FFG's hunts for subs? It took almost 2 hours to hunt for one that I made. I made an area for the sub to navigate in then in a FFG it was time to hunt for it. Went to the area and sent my helicopter to drop some buoys in the four corners of the area and I thought where it was loudest is where the sub would be? Make sense? Now is it custom to lower the towed array or do what they do in the movies and start using the active sonar and start pinging? Just wondering mind you for I was never in the Navy.
SeaQueen
09-25-06, 12:02 AM
Went to the area and sent my helicopter to drop some buoys in the four corners of the area and I thought where it was loudest is where the sub would be? Make sense?
Sort of. It sort of gets to the question... if you've lost your wallet and you think it's a little more likely that you lost it in the dark than under the lamp post, do you look under the lamp post or in the dark first? :-)
I don't usually use the helo as an independent searcher. My feeling is that it's best to save it for localizing and attacking subs at a distance. That's just my opinion, though. Using up all the sonobuoys for searching just means I have to maintain a higher sortie rate to keep one in the air that I can use to pounce on any subs that pop up. I'll use it for non-acoustic search sometimes, relying on MAD and radar. That's turned out to be profitable a few times.
Now is it custom to lower the towed array or do what they do in the movies and start using the active sonar and start pinging? Just wondering mind you for I was never in the Navy.
It depends. The best thing to do is probably to do both and be sure to keep an eye on both displays. It also depends on the target type, SSP, water depth, etc... The hull array on an FFG is not very useful passive, though. Stealth is not a surface ship's strong point, so the advantages of remaining silent aren't always as clear cut as with a submarine.
Sea Demon
09-25-06, 12:19 AM
I'm kinda figuring all this stuff out myself. :-? I normally always deploy the towed array when I'm doing ASW. It is the best way to get a sniff of what's out there without wasting bouys from the helo. I also use a series of slight zig-zagging maneuvers to make sure I get a total 360 degree picture of the area. It doesn't take much. Along the way, I also deploy some OTS bouys in a line pattern. If I'm hunting an enemy sub near a channel or in a certain operating area, I'll do like you do and travel around deploying a box pattern or a line across the channel itself. And yes, all the while, I do have an MH-60 up and ready.
All I really need is a line of bearing and at least an ID that it is indeed a submarine contact to begin my TMA, and I can deploy the helo to go and drop a pattern of VLAD or DIFAR sonobouys on it to begin localizing the target. I prefer VLAD. Don't forget to analyze the SSP. I go into directional mode on the acoustic station to analyze the sonar signature of the contact from the VLAD sonobouys. I usually move my FFG away from the enemies datum to hopefully keep me safe at this point. And as I refine the solution for more accuracy, I direct my helo to drop DICASS and I go active once I'm confident enough to do so. At this point, if I've done everything right, I should get a precise location (bearing and range from the bouy), and I can prosecute (kill him). I'll direct my helo to drop a torpedo, then stand him off 1-2 Nm to be ready for another shot if needed.
Note: If I'm close enough, I do use active hull sonar. It just really depends on my own tactical situation. That's a decision I make based on the events at the moment. And yes, passicve hull sonar isn't much use that I can see.
How do some of you other FFG skippers do it???
ASWnut101
09-28-06, 04:38 PM
scuttle me boat, and get me P-3!:arrgh!:
I started today to play the FFG a little bit. My mission is to find a foxtrot in open sea without any indication of its possible location.
The first time i played this mission, i used the active sonar many times and (luckily) the AI sub got nervous, and started cavitating.
This allowed me to pick him up with the towed array and close in, the helo was already in the air. I killed the sub with the helo, just to do practice (mission is to force sub to surface).
The second time i played the mission I wasn't able to locate the sub :shifty:
Right now I'm trying to figure if i can resupply the helo with buoys.
SeaQueen
10-01-06, 09:35 AM
Right now I'm trying to figure if i can resupply the helo with buoys.
Once he lands, take him down to alert 30 and start readying it for launch again. It will have a full load of buoys and torpedoes.
Right now I'm trying to figure if i can resupply the helo with buoys.
Once he lands, take him down to alert 30 and start readying it for launch again. It will have a full load of buoys and torpedoes.
OK, as I did expect ;)
... but I suppose to order the Helo to use the dipping sonar or MAD from the FFG is not possible. Correct ?
... but I suppose to order the Helo to use the dipping sonar or MAD from the FFG is not possible. Correct ?
It is possible .. with LWAMI mod .. there helo always dips when it reaches fly-to waypoint. And it always has MAD on ..
... but I suppose to order the Helo to use the dipping sonar or MAD from the FFG is not possible. Correct ?
It is possible .. with LWAMI mod .. there helo always dips when it reaches fly-to waypoint. And it always has MAD on ..
OK.
Back to the topic title... I think it's unavoidable to send the helo out to find enemy subs. When intelligence reports confirm the presence of a sub in the area I think it's a must to send the helo out and have it drop buoys, the sensors aboard the FFG are plainly to low-ranged in comparison to a sub.
SeaQueen
10-02-06, 10:15 PM
... but I suppose to order the Helo to use the dipping sonar or MAD from the FFG is not possible. Correct ?
Stock won't dip, but I believe it will get a MAD hit. You should be able to see them on the link.
Back to the topic title... I think it's unavoidable to send the helo out to find enemy subs. When intelligence reports confirm the presence of a sub in the area I think it's a must to send the helo out and have it drop buoys, the sensors aboard the FFG are plainly to low-ranged in comparison to a sub.
With FFG going slow (under 5kts) it wont cavitate and is VERY quiet. Properly deployed FFG's tail sonar is pretty good. With good handling it's fair even without helos.
Also good trick is to drop OTS buoys. Think of it as towed array which never washes away, just takes 2 minutes to deploy.
To learn about FFG's own noise, drop OTS diffar shallow, circle around it at different speeds and watch how signal changes on buoy display.
Back to the topic title... I think it's unavoidable to send the helo out to find enemy subs. When intelligence reports confirm the presence of a sub in the area I think it's a must to send the helo out and have it drop buoys, the sensors aboard the FFG are plainly to low-ranged in comparison to a sub.
With FFG going slow (under 5kts) it wont cavitate and is VERY quiet. Properly deployed FFG's tail sonar is pretty good. With good handling it's fair even without helos.
Also good trick is to drop OTS buoys. Think of it as towed array which never washes away, just takes 2 minutes to deploy.
To learn about FFG's own noise, drop OTS diffar shallow, circle around it at different speeds and watch how signal changes on buoy display.
What do you mean with "properly used"?
Because what I did is to check for a layer with a BT: I found a convergence zone at around 2000ft. Ordered all stop so the TA went down to ~2200ft. Was still unable to see the Foxtrot at around 10nm...
And the buoys, what's theyr range? I use DICASS D/S and it seems to be less than 5nm against a non cavitating diesel sub...
Another question: do they have the ability to fire buoys in RL ?
ANd the MAD on the helo, what altitude do you have to fly to have it be efficent? and it's approx range?
By 'properly used' I mean not dragging it on the bottom and having it far from surface. Usually good approach is 'deploy as much is it is possible (without dragging it on the bottom).
In stock DW, VLAD has best range. About 7nm. With LWAMI VLAD can't be used that much because it has modified depths.
DIFFAR has better range than DICCAS in both variants. DICCAS is little penalized in range against DIFFAR because of active mode.
Can't tell about HELOs MAD range. And you can't control helo's altitude anyway.
I've never seen MAD working no FFG's helos. I would not know. Helo just promotes the contact to the link. It does not say how the helo did find out.
But sometimes it gives the contact to link so soon, that it must have been MAD. Especially in quick missions with FFG some sub is close to the FFG (under 1nm). Then you just order helo to launch and in the moment it takes off there is sub on the link.
compressioncut
10-08-06, 03:33 PM
Back to the topic title... I think it's unavoidable to send the helo out to find enemy subs. When intelligence reports confirm the presence of a sub in the area I think it's a must to send the helo out and have it drop buoys, the sensors aboard the FFG are plainly to low-ranged in comparison to a sub.
With FFG going slow (under 5kts) it wont cavitate and is VERY quiet. Properly deployed FFG's tail sonar is pretty good. With good handling it's fair even without helos.
Also good trick is to drop OTS buoys. Think of it as towed array which never washes away, just takes 2 minutes to deploy.
To learn about FFG's own noise, drop OTS diffar shallow, circle around it at different speeds and watch how signal changes on buoy display.
What do you mean with "properly used"?
Because what I did is to check for a layer with a BT: I found a convergence zone at around 2000ft. Ordered all stop so the TA went down to ~2200ft. Was still unable to see the Foxtrot at around 10nm...
And the buoys, what's theyr range? I use DICASS D/S and it seems to be less than 5nm against a non cavitating diesel sub...
Another question: do they have the ability to fire buoys in RL ?
ANd the MAD on the helo, what altitude do you have to fly to have it be efficent? and it's approx range?
You are unlikely to detect a submerged conventional sub with the TA - it was not designed for that. The SQR-19 was designed to detect nuclear subs in the open ocean, which it does well, particularly in the game. 20 miles in the surface duct is not unusual. To detect a non nuc you can try active sonar, and the helo dipping, and buoy fields if possible, although passive buoy ranges will tend to be terrible. Detection ranges are not going to be long; what you are doing versus a non-nuc is suppressing it and/or avoiding it.
I'm also being led to believe that perhaps your oceanographic knowledge could use a little more robustness (if that's a word), or at least the terminology. What you describe is not a convergence zone, or at least not how a convergence zone works. It sounds maybe like you tried to put your tail in the deep sound channel axis, which isn't necessary or effective. You want to tow it somewhere near the sub's expected depth to exploit a submerged CZ, although again with a non-nuc on battery CZ propagation is unlikely enough that I'd say you'd never see it. Tow in the surface layer to enhance torpedo detection.
And yes surface ships can deploy and process sonobuoys. 5nm with a DICASS buoy is flat out amazing range. Sonobouys are tiny little devices and ranges are extremely limited, which is why you normally need fields (or other arrangements) of them. DW is very generous in that regard.
Wow .. not using TA while hunting subs is a liberating idea. I played yesterday FFG quick mission to practice just that .. localization of sub with TA. But it really is quite hard. I'd say I improved myself in TA handling a lot, I'm now MUCH better then autocrew. But I can't do TMA on FFG (the interface is just impossible), so it takes like 10 minutes to get good range estimate from TA track. In that time I can kill the sub twice with helo. I just send it flying down the bearing line. With LWAMI helo detects the sub with MAD and atacks by itself.
Also as you noted, FFG's TA does not have that much range. One of the first thing I do on the quick mission start is I drop OTS DIFFAR or VLAD. Situation when TA get's something which buoy does not, is very rare.
On the other hand, using active with LWAMI is risky. Subs are aggresive as hell. Ping them few times from close range, and be sure to have fish on you. And FFG has very very few anti-torpedo options.
Which takes us to another topic: evading torpedoes in FFG. What I found is that speed helps, but not always. When dragging Nixie, it is crucial not to be more loud then Nixie. I trained evading with show truth and torpedoes never went on nixie when I was at flank. With LWAMI you also have to turn a lot, since torpedoes does not explode on Nixie. But when I slow down, or even stop, things get better. Torpedo can just ignore me. I guess it's because slow FFG is very quiet.
But then you have these wakehomers, and be sure that human oponents will send just that at you. It's pretty imposible to evade them. I miss deploying lifeboats in such cases :cool: Does not US really have something like torpedo countermeasures ?
SeaQueen
10-09-06, 08:18 AM
But then you have these wakehomers, and be sure that human oponents will send just that at you. It's pretty imposible to evade them. I miss deploying lifeboats in such cases :cool: Does not US really have something like torpedo countermeasures ?
They can be evaded. Bare in mind, in the game, they can only go about 10Nmi, unlike the ADCAP which can go over double that. They also tend to take a random looking path to their target, so they're effectively fairly slow. Speed is a good way to get away from wakehomers.
You are unlikely to detect a submerged conventional sub with the TA - it was not designed for that. The SQR-19 was designed to detect nuclear subs in the open ocean, which it does well, particularly in the game. 20 miles in the surface duct is not unusual. To detect a non nuc you can try active sonar, and the helo dipping, and buoy fields if possible, although passive buoy ranges will tend to be terrible. Detection ranges are not going to be long; what you are doing versus a non-nuc is suppressing it and/or avoiding it.
I'm also being led to believe that perhaps your oceanographic knowledge could use a little more robustness (if that's a word), or at least the terminology. What you describe is not a convergence zone, or at least not how a convergence zone works. It sounds maybe like you tried to put your tail in the deep sound channel axis, which isn't necessary or effective. You want to tow it somewhere near the sub's expected depth to exploit a submerged CZ, although again with a non-nuc on battery CZ propagation is unlikely enough that I'd say you'd never see it. Tow in the surface layer to enhance torpedo detection.
And yes surface ships can deploy and process sonobuoys. 5nm with a DICASS buoy is flat out amazing range. Sonobouys are tiny little devices and ranges are extremely limited, which is why you normally need fields (or other arrangements) of them. DW is very generous in that regard.
Got me, I risked to say "convergence" meaning the minimum of the (negative) peack in the SSP. Actually my oceanographic knowledge is very rough :shifty:
I'm very interested in the concept of "suppressing" a nuke. Is it to let him know that you know where he is? Implicitally say "if you engage me, you're dead" ? How do you succeed in doing that concretely?
Slowly the FFG turns out to be "psychologically" interesting to me ;)
Wanna him to know where he is ? Drop DICCAS right on him.
Also as you noted, FFG's TA does not have that much range. One of the first thing I do on the quick mission start is I drop OTS DIFFAR or VLAD. Situation when TA get's something which buoy does not, is very rare.
Are we playing different games here? The only cases I've ever had something only on a buoy and not on the ta is when a helo dropped those buoys far away.
On the other hand, using active with LWAMI is risky. Subs are aggresive as hell. Ping them few times from close range, and be sure to have fish on you.
; attack active intercept
IF TgtSource $= "Active Intercept" AND ( TgtID $= "Hostile" ) AND TgtSrcLevel "Active Intercept" > 50 AND NOT snapshot THEN {
DEBUGOUT "Attacking Active Ping"
ATTACKBEST
snapshot = TRUE
} ELSE {
And FFG has very very few anti-torpedo options.
Which takes us to another topic: evading torpedoes in FFG. What I found is that speed helps, but not always. When dragging Nixie, it is crucial not to be more loud then Nixie. I trained evading with show truth and torpedoes never went on nixie when I was at flank. With LWAMI you also have to turn a lot, since torpedoes does not explode on Nixie. But when I slow down, or even stop, things get better. Torpedo can just ignore me. I guess it's because slow FFG is very quiet.
But then you have these wakehomers, and be sure that human oponents will send just that at you. It's pretty imposible to evade them. I miss deploying lifeboats in such cases :cool: Does not US really have something like torpedo countermeasures ?
Wakehomers are nearly useless against ships that don't leave a wake. Such as the perry at 4 or less knots. (By then it would have to find the ship itself. With lwami, that means max 50 yards off.)
As for the acoustic ones, I've found that one torpedo will usually shut down on you if you use the nixie and have it approach from 180 relative. (Where it previously detonated, I think.) Subsequent torpedoes apparently requires re-deploying the nixie. (If torps come in pairs... problem.)
I don't know much about real life though.
I mean it like this: when you have both VLAD and TA on same location, you usually get same contacts on both. TA has better range, but it counts only when target is close enough to be detected by TA and far enough not to be detected by VLAD. Which is rare in quick missions, where sub is usualy VERY close to FFG.
Anyway TA has one major advantage, I have found lately. Bearing reported from buoys is very inaccurate. It depends on where you click on the gram in directional mode ! Cursor line has to touch contact dot, but it will mark cursor bearing, not contact bearing (as it does with most sensors). It may even depend on screen resolution I guess, since on bigger gram you have more cursor positions. All together, buoys gives very bad bearing info.
TA gives accurate bearing and it has automatic updates.
Yesterday I played quick mission FFG against Akula .. and I've learned to value TA again. It was rough sea and I lost contact many times. I did not use helos from the begining (for practice purposes). I had contact on 2 OTS buoys and TA track. Then I get some DICAS active track, but it seemed way off both pasive buoy tracks and TA track (TMA solution). So I circled around and I really could not get nice fix. Then I found buoys bearing problem and I clicked the cons as sharp as possible and it helped, and I have also found that TMA solution is quite old and that actual TA track bearing fits DICAS active track.
So I send 2 fishes there .. and Akula send fish at me.
I did 180 and ahead flank, and I evaded torpedo nicely (I tracked torpedo with buoys and screen markers). During that I launched helo, because I was worried torpedo will sink me and Akula would run away. I hoped even stand alone helo could kill Akula by promoted link.
At that time Akula run away from buoys and I had it only on TA. But position changed a lot with every TMA update. I've sent helo to dip around TMA solutions and it found nothing. After 10 minutes TMA solution more or less stayed on the same position, so I ordered helo to drop some DICAS, and I got nice strong active return on it. Then first torpedo from helo hit, mission complete. Helo hit the water and died on return, but it was really nice mission, lot of fun.
I did 180 and ahead flank, and I evaded torpedo nicely (I tracked torpedo with buoys and screen markers). During that I launched helo, because I was worried torpedo will sink me and Akula would run away. I hoped even stand alone helo could kill Akula by promoted link.
I've learned through experience not to expect much from self-controlled heloes launched from my ffg.
At that time Akula run away from buoys and I had it only on TA. But position changed a lot with every TMA update. I've sent helo to dip around TMA solutions and it found nothing. After 10 minutes TMA solution more or less stayed on the same position,
This is a feature of the autoTMA, and will generally happen every time the target track changes its course and/or speed. All you can really do is to learn when you can trust it and when you can not. Turning on target history helps a lot.
Of course, this feature makes tracking subs that maneuver every couple minutes (think multiplayer) a nightmare. It will make their own TA (if any) pretty useless, however. And looking over the tma plot will, at least to trained eyes, provide a clue about distance. Worst case, go active. They know you're there.
I did not want to go active, because LWAMI subs are really aggresive. Even if I order 2/3 in FFG, sub will ususally ID me and will shoot. In quick missions, where subs are close to you, it is wise to order engine-stop right on the start. Evaluate situation as much as possible from passive sources (or DICASS, subs wont attack it). Then slowly move. FFG does not cavitate under 5 kts and is really hard to detect (and hard to ID) - you can check it with buoys.
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