Seawolf Real Life Question

[Kirk]

Is it true that on a real Seawolf Class that they do not use the Harpoon missle? Next question is about the tubes. Are each tube designed for a different weapon? Say tubes 1 & 2 for the Mark 48, tubes 3 & 4 for the harpoon(if they really use them in real life) and tubes 5 - 8 for the tomahawk? Or are the tubes all the same? Because I can't see how a tube for a Mark 48 would also work for a tomahawk or harpoon? The reason I ask this, is I though I read somewhere in real life that a harpoon could fit in the VLS on the 688 class? Sorry about being picky, I just would like to play the sim as in real life. Thanks for any thought.

[awood6535]

From what I have seen The navy is not showing any harpoons being loaded on any of our subs. As for the tubes the are all the same 8-660mm torpedo tubes.But sea wolf was designed for
50 Tomahawk cruise missiles (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/bgm-109.htm) or
50 Harpoon antiship missiles (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-84.htm) or
50 Mark 48 ADCAP torpedoes (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48.htm) or
up to 100 mines (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mines.htm)

as for the harpoon I haven't heard about it beeing able to launch from a VLS tube but I wouldn't see a problem. And remember your not being picky your paying attention to detail.

[Henson]

The Harpoon has been deemed less useful for subsurface platforms than the ADCAP torpedo. Likewise the TASM. The sublaunched harpoon has been out of service longer than I have been IN the service. The TASMs have all been converted to TLAMs nd shot at Iraq by now.

As for the tube question, our tubes are fitted to carry any weapon we have on board. They basically fit the weapon to the tube, not the other way around. VLS is significantly different from CLS (torpedo tube launched) weapons; it is, in effect, a completely different weapons system.

I hope this answers your questions.

[SeaQueen]

The Harpoon has been deemed less useful for subsurface platforms than the ADCAP torpedo. Likewise the TASM. The sublaunched harpoon has been out of service longer than I have been IN the service. The TASMs have all been converted to TLAMs nd shot at Iraq by now.


I think it's interesting because even though they don't deploy Harpoons anymore, they still fund R&D on "the next Harpoon." I think they want to maintain the capability of deploying a sub launched ASCM, even though they don't anticipate them being useful against their estimated future threats.

[Henson]

The technology hasn't caught up with the intent of the missile yet. Until things advance a little further, it's in the realm of pointlessness to have an over-the-horizon weapon deployed from submarines. It's the equivalent of bringing a cannon to a kinfe fight...unwieldy and impractical.

[Kirk]

Thanks all. That does clear things up. Never served in the Navy but very interested in the boats & weapons.

[SeaQueen]

The technology hasn't caught up with the intent of the missile yet. Until things advance a little further, it's in the realm of pointlessness to have an over-the-horizon weapon deployed from submarines. It's the equivalent of bringing a cannon to a kinfe fight...unwieldy and impractical.

It also raises the question, why didn't you just target the ship for a strike by aircraft? I guess ASCMs from subs, from are US perspective, a really very Kola Penninsula/Norwegian Sea.

[Nexus7]

Not directly regarding the armament but still a RL question:

Like the stealth bombers can adsorb RADAR radiation, is it not thinkable to have a sub with a surface able to adsorb active pings? This would make active torps useless as well as active intercept... Is this theorically possible?

[SeaQueen]

They DO have a surface for absorbing sonar energy. It's called an anechoic coating. It reduces a submarine's target strength.

It doesn't make active torpedoes useless, nor does it make active intercept useless (not sure why it would?) but it does offer some help against active homing torpedoes.

The technology is actually quite old, the Germans in WWII covered their boats in an anechoic coating. The had a code name for it, Alberich. When I was taking a course in acoustics at Penn State, there was actually an interesting discussion of what materials make the best coatings. Apparently, there's a lot of voodoo to it, with no real general theory on how to make the best possible coating. They just experiment and see what works.

I found this article on them:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/archive/index.php/t-3638.html


Not directly regarding the armament but still a RL question:

Like the stealth bombers can adsorb RADAR radiation, is it not thinkable to have a sub with a surface able to adsorb active pings? This would make active torps useless as well as active intercept... Is this theorically possible?

[ASWnut101]

couldn't you just put rubber all over the hull (impractical I know, but will it work?)

[SeaQueen]

couldn't you just put rubber all over the hull (impractical I know, but will it work?)

That's sort of what an anechoic coating is. And yes, it works quite well. The hard part was developing the technology to make it stick to the hull, but they solved that and they've been able to do it pretty well for a long time now.

[ASWnut101]

Cool, Im doing that to my bike.....:arrgh!:

[Kapitan]

Personaly the harpoon missile is well not very effective, against a modern DDG or even FFG or bigger it is pretty dam useless, its a small war head 70nm range it wouldnt do much damage to a ship if it did hit.

The TASM on the other hand is a lot better and i think they should either revert to using TASM or build another ASM weapon cause right now Russia, China and india all have the monopoly with the SS-N-19 and SS-N-22's

[hyperion2206]

Personaly the harpoon missile is well not very effective, against a modern DDG or even FFG or bigger it is pretty dam useless, its a small war head 70nm range it wouldnt do much damage to a ship if it did hit.

The TASM on the other hand is a lot better and i think they should either revert to using TASM or build another ASM weapon cause right now Russia, China and india all have the monopoly with the SS-N-19 and SS-N-22's

I think the most important question is: are ASMs really usefull? IMHO you give away your position if you use the Harpoon and those missiles are quite easy to kill (at least when you play DW, don't know if that's the same in RL).
I think that an ASM isn't the weapon of choice for a sub. Anybody aggree/disagree?;)

[Kapitan]

SSGN such as an oscar are designed to carry anti ship missiles its thier primary role.

Soviet and russian doctorine is to overwhelm enamy radar but masses and masses of missiles, each oscar can carry 24 nuclear armed super sonic SS-N-19 anti ship missiles and each flys at mach 2+

The missile if fired from around 40 miles away you would have incredibly little time to react by the time you classify the contact 24 are headed your way and by the time you fired the missile to intercept they are within 5 miles of hitting you.

CIWS is totaly useless against them from the time it gets into range its about 0.0000468 seconds to impact, each missile is fully capible of mission killing a carrier or sinking a DDG out right, even such ships as aegis cruiser and destroyers would have a rough time trying to swat them all.

However aegis is now so advanced that i wouldnt doubt that they would stop all but a few and the oscar war time doctrine is to either hunt in groups of 2 or 3 aided by and escorting akula or victor so that could mean 72 missiles heading towards you not including tube launched ASM missiles.

now days though the standard patrol is done alone one oscar is fully capible of holding up a battle group for a day or two untill back up arrives, id say that with all them missiles flying around aegis may have a hard time im not saying it couldnt do the job its a very effective and powerful system but i would say it may have a rough time.

[hyperion2206]

SSGN such as an oscar are designed to carry anti ship missiles its thier primary role.

Soviet and russian doctorine is to overwhelm enamy radar but masses and masses of missiles, each oscar can carry 24 nuclear armed super sonic SS-N-19 anti ship missiles and each flys at mach 2+

The missile if fired from around 40 miles away you would have incredibly little time to react by the time you classify the contact 24 are headed your way and by the time you fired the missile to intercept they are within 5 miles of hitting you.

CIWS is totaly useless against them from the time it gets into range its about 0.0000468 seconds to impact, each missile is fully capible of mission killing a carrier or sinking a DDG out right, even such ships as aegis cruiser and destroyers would have a rough time trying to swat them all.

However aegis is now so advanced that i wouldnt doubt that they would stop all but a few and the oscar war time doctrine is to either hunt in groups of 2 or 3 aided by and escorting akula or victor so that could mean 72 missiles heading towards you not including tube launched ASM missiles.

now days though the standard patrol is done alone one oscar is fully capible of holding up a battle group for a day or two untill back up arrives, id say that with all them missiles flying around aegis may have a hard time im not saying it couldnt do the job its a very effective and powerful system but i would say it may have a rough time.

I understand that it seems to be working fine for the Russians, but what about the US?
The US just have normal subs who could fire Harpoons or TASMs (which are out of service). Nowadays there are no western ASMs that are suitable to be fired from a sub (in my oppinion). They don't have enough range and are too slow so they can be killed way to easy (assumed that the missile is detected early enough).

I think if western navies need a sub-launched missile it must be a long range super sonic missile which would need a whole new sub type to be launched from.

[Kapitan]

Not realy you could can launch them, and if your taking on say an udaloy or even a frigate of the russian navy air defence is a big thing for them, the kirov has three types of SAM missile systems not including the two types of CIWS.

The exocet is a good missile however lacks the range and by the time the sub is in position to fire there will already be torpedos in the water.

Harpoons and TASM are way too slow and the harpoons warhead's would just bounce off most warships anyway, the TASM would be a good mid range missile if it could go faster than mach 1.5 but the USN doesnt want to develope it.

To be honest the USN has realy shot themselves in the foot big time, if TASM and harpoons are defunct what on earth are thier ships going to defend themselves with if they ever got into a sea battle you cant rely on the 5inch guns cause they wont go further than 12 miles, and bare in mind most enamys who have ASM's will be firing from the 50nm mark.

[XabbaRus]

Because any opposing navy will find them selves with an SSN guning for them. Also most us navy ships AFAIK work in a CBG which should pic up the bad guys outside of missile range and thus allow an airstrike on them..

[Kapitan]

Plans can be easily shot down, and yes the USN uses the "protection in numbers" tactics as did the soviets, in a way it is a good tactic but in others its best to have that ASM there just in case.

[ASWnut101]

I actually agree. US weapons are VERY out of date. Even our carrier groups are vulnrable to an Oscar with the ss-n-19 and an effective remote passive sensors. All it needs to do is wait until the Nimitz is close, too far in range for any quick action by the Arlegh (i think thats how its spelled:88) ) Burke, Ticonds, or OHP's. one shot to the Control tower will ground the jets, then the Nimitz is a floating mile long target(that means :dead: for tin can). US very desperatily needs a Mach 1.5+ sub-launch missile with atleast a 1000kg warhead.

[Smaragdadler]

Nice pic, showing the anechoic coating of a Type U212.

http://zone.sousmarins.free.fr/h-U212-fin-lancement.jpg

[SeaQueen]

Nice pic, showing the anechoic coating of a Type U212.

Is it just me or does that sub just look TOTALLY sci-fi?

[Henson]

Harpoon is not defunct, sub-launched harpoons are. There is a difference.

I am unqualified to comment on surface action group tactics.

[XabbaRus]

Whilst also a fan of the Russian sub force I also think the effectiveness of the SS-N-19 is overstated. Sure on paper it looks good but how often are these things test fired in realistic exercises.

All we have is the official Russian blurb on them which of course is going to be complementary, just like any nations blurb of its own weapons systems.

It would be folly for the US to ignore the potential threat but at the same time Kapitan, until they are tested in combat or there is some independent verifiable records of such tests I think you are being a bit overenthusiastic.

It might just be better to sneak in and send some torps from up below instead of having to rely on offboard sensors to give you a position fix which will become old quickly esp if not updated regularly.

[Kapitan]

Its not uncommon to have them test most of thier missiles at least twice a year which is more than the americans acctualy do.

Kursk had tested one of her 24 SS-N-19 missiles before she was lost in spingex and wintex i would not be surprised if they are firing 3 or 4 of them in tests.

[hyperion2206]

Nice pic, showing the anechoic coating of a Type U212.

Is it just me or does that sub just look TOTALLY sci-fi?


I agree: the sail looks a bit odd but the rest looks normal to me. What makes you think that the 212 class looks sci-fi?

[ASWnut101]

its got a sci-fi engine. its a hydrogen powered battery, like the new experimental cars:know:

[hyperion2206]

I know, but SeaQueen said that the sub LOOKED sci-fi. Since you can't see the hydrogen powered batteries...:know:

[ASWnut101]

.....you can just imagine that they are there:know: :rock:

[SeaQueen]

I know, but SeaQueen said that the sub LOOKED sci-fi. Since you can't see the hydrogen powered batteries...:know:

The sail, the tail and the bow array are TOTALLY STYLIN' DUDE

[hyperion2206]

Glad you like the design, the 212 looks definitely better than the 209 class!;) You can't see it on the pic but when I build the model of the 212 I noticed that the torpedo tubes are mostly on the port side. Does anybody know if this is correct?

[Dr.Sid]

Some info about 212, nice pictures.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/

[ASWnut101]

funny that this was a Seawolf topic first....:)

[zeropoint]

Yeah, but Seawolf is less pretty.

[SeaQueen]

Yeah, but Seawolf is less pretty.

I wouldn't say that... it's less unique looking. I used to think the sail was kinda interesting, but then they came out with the VA.

It's interesting, though, because for a long time US SSNs all looked pretty much the same. They're getting more interesting now.

[ASWnut101]

Yes, I also like the new stern of the boat, with its propellor looking like it is.....sexy.

[swimsalot]

Not sure about sci-fi lookin, but it does look like it has porthole windows on the bow. Are those for the bow sonar, or do they provide a little natural light? :)

[Smaragdadler]

Seawolf has classic style, u212 looks more alternative...:)
Can't really decide, which one I should choose, so I think will take both...

http://www.bronco-model.com/350/NB5001/NB5001.jpg
http://www.thepmw.com/phorum/download.php/13,783/boats%201126.jpg

[SeaQueen]

Seawolf has classic style, u212 looks more alternative...:)
Can't really decide, which one I should choose, so I think will take both...

Ooo models. I built a Seawolf (this one was resin, Yankee Modelworks) and a Kilo (another resin one). Both of them are in my office. I love making models.

[ASWnut101]

where did you get them?

[SeaQueen]

where did you get them?

Online from Yankee modelworks. I want to build some more. I think it'd be neat to decorate my office with nice models of ships and submarines.

[Kapitan]

Airfix and Zvesda are the models i use mainly have the K19 K3 K267 and others as well when i bought the K19 model i got the SSN21 model free well i didnt acctualy buy it it was given to me :D