View Full Version : Legal status of mods?
Fropm this locked thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=97553
My last post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfmann
We have to realize one simple point the I hate X-1 and I am willing to destroy sub sims forever to get my way, crowd: There is a difference to “Being right” and “Having the right”. Being right could cost us future open capacity (I do not know this to be true) and diminish what we enjoy because we want to attack those that utilize mods that actually they have every (“Legal, not moral”) right to use.
We can hurt ourselves more than help if we make too much out of something we can do nothing about
Wulfmann
Are you really saying that X1/CP had the legal right to use mods created by others and sell them? I call BS. Stop characterising those who stand for honesty as wanting to destroy sub sims.
Now could it really be legal for someone to take something created by someone else and sell it? Yes or no and why? I want contracts and legal codes and precedents. NO FLAMES.
Thanks.
I think Wulfmann is in a meeting with the rest of X1 in the Deathstar.
I think Wulfmann is in a meeting with the rest of X1 in the Deathstar.
:rotfl::rotfl:
The Noob
09-07-06, 07:42 AM
@joea
Your last post? Goodbye then...:-?
Jimbuna
09-07-06, 07:54 AM
I think Wulfmann is in a meeting with the rest of X1 in the Deathstar.
:rotfl::rotfl:
ROFLMAO :rotfl: :rotfl:
HunterICX
09-07-06, 12:11 PM
I think Wulfmann is in a meeting with the rest of X1 in the Deathstar.
Not for long I suppose:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Special/SF/DeathStar-SE62-104.jpg
TORPEDO HIT!!!!!
Wulfmann
09-07-06, 01:33 PM
The problem here is many of you refuse to recognize what you don't like because you don't like it. That denial does not help but making me the target of your wrath because X-1 is not here while making you feel cool only shows your ignorance.
It is not BS, it is a legal fact. Like I said it is not about being right it is about having the right. The legal right.
What you fail to realize, face, recognize, admit to etc is Ubisoft owns the copyright to all these files. When one is altered or modified that file still belongs to Ubisoft.
It does not belong to the mod maker of it.
So, when Ubisoft gave X-1 permission to make an add on to SH3 they had legal right to utilize the files copyrighted by Ubisoft.
My stating this legal fact has been taken to mean I endorse them doing so. I am not making any judgment as it seems some common courtesy would have gone a long way to preventing discord but I was never involved with or contacted in any way by X-1.
I provided historical data to Combat Planes and beta tested and reported to them only, I was not compensated a single dime. Those facts are ignored and innuendo in the form of random conjecture are then considered fact.
Any opinions made by me, and that is all they are, are not endorsed or approved by Combat Planes and are made of my own accord. If you think attacking me to vent helps your ego, well than perhaps it is well served. If you think I care, you have me confused with someone that gives a Scheise!
What I meant above was hassling Ubisoft might provide and opposite result as it did with Combat Flight Simulator 3 which we so complained about that they cancelled CFS4 when it was more than half done. They then released consol games like “Heroes of the Pacific”. If you think that is impossible for SH series, well I hope you are right.
While I have no reason other than a fear of possibility, I was merely stating we could push UBI into wanting to avoid being bothered by marginally profitable games if we make more of this than we have.
I am not saying it would be honest people doing it. Honesty, fairness etc have nothing to do with the legality.
I am saying we must realize they have the legal right to do as they wish with their copyrighted material and we have no legal right nor do those that modify Ubisoft copyrighted material.
It is not BS. It is Copyright laws and your denying it changes nothing. It seems many prefer to be in denial than face reality.
Wulfmann
The problem here is many of you refuse to recognize what you don't like because you don't like it. That denial does not help but making me the target of your wrath because X-1 is not here while making you feel cool only shows your ignorance.
It is not BS, it is a legal fact. Like I said it is not about being right it is about having the right. The legal right.
What you fail to realize, face, recognize, admit to etc is Ubisoft owns the copyright to all these files. When one is altered or modified that file still belongs to Ubisoft.
It does not belong to the mod maker of it.
So, when Ubisoft gave X-1 permission to make an add on to SH3 they had legal right to utilize the files copyrighted by Ubisoft.
My stating this legal fact has been taken to mean I endorse them doing so. I am not making any judgment as it seems some common courtesy would have gone a long way to preventing discord but I was never involved with or contacted in any way by X-1.
I provided historical data to Combat Planes and beta tested and reported to them only, I was not compensated a single dime. Those facts are ignored and innuendo in the form of random conjecture are then considered fact.
Any opinions made by me, and that is all they are, are not endorsed or approved by Combat Planes and are made of my own accord. If you think attacking me to vent helps your ego, well than perhaps it is well served. If you think I care, you have me confused with someone that gives a Scheise!
What I meant above was hassling Ubisoft might provide and opposite result as it did with Combat Flight Simulator 3 which we so complained about that they cancelled CFS4 when it was more than half done. They then released consol games like “Heroes of the Pacific”. If you think that is impossible for SH series, well I hope you are right.
While I have no reason other than a fear of possibility, I was merely stating we could push UBI into wanting to avoid being bothered by marginally profitable games if we make more of this than we have.
I am not saying it would be honest people doing it. Honesty, fairness etc have nothing to do with the legality.
I am saying we must realize they have the legal right to do as they wish with their copyrighted material and we have no legal right nor do those that modify Ubisoft copyrighted material.
It is not BS. It is Copyright laws and your denying it changes nothing. It seems many prefer to be in denial than face reality.
Wulfmann
If someone writes a book, a copyrighted one, do they own the words in it?
Of course its not illegal, but thats not the point.
It is highly immoral, and a good old kick in the face for anyone making mods. This is the most arrogant and inconsiderate treatment of customers - yes CUSTOMERS - I have ever seen, so the fact that you are defending X1 is for me not just strange, but also a bit daft.
Try selling X1-software to anybody who knows their story in the future, and see how you`ll fare.
Companies of any size can not afford to alienate themselves from the customer.
This is also a problem for Ubisoft, and my guess is they will have to do something about it at one point.
@joeaYour last post? Goodbye then...:-?
Bump not post, your usename is very appropriate.:know: (Joke) Bump means to push up a thread again, I posted, no one answered for a few days so I bumped it once to get a response that's all.
@ Wulfmann, sorry I would like to see laws, paragraph and number. If freeware mods are technically illegal, and X1/CP took illegal mods to put in their approved payware product, isn't that illegal? :hmm:
CFS3 is a bad example. I really don't think, with the possible exception of MSFS, that companies care about the modding community. Also products as bad as CFS3 should not have to be "fixed" by the mod community.:down: What does that have to do with the cancelation of CFS4 anyway? We should not complain when companies release crud games?? You make it sound like the "ungratitude" of the public made them cancel CFS4, rather than disappintment with CFS4 which had broken with the pattern of previous MS sims and was not even compatible with the civie line. Of course as it is all speculation as no one knows the real story. :roll:
So basically we should shut up and not complain about immoral activity and sh#t payware. :shifty:
Wulfmann
09-07-06, 03:34 PM
This only shows how both S and J do not want to face reality and want to attack me with this as an excuse.
Pathetic.
The book bit is preposterous and not applicable here. A better example would be if someone took War and Peace, used most of the same book but changed a few words (The mod maker) and then declares he owns the book and not the published author.
Ubi owns these files and you agree to that when you install the game. The fact they leave it open is partially so we will improve it for our pleasure and later, if they so choose, there treasure.
You keep saying I am defending X-1.
I am not.
I am trying to explain reality to people that are in denial.
Demanding something be done about something nothing will be done has no merit in reality.
The fact something is not right or moral or nice has nothing to do with legality.
J, you ask me to quote what law? This has been investigated many times and not once has any cause been shown that has any legal merit. Not once.
Don’t agree.
Sue.
I dare you or anyone.
But, at that point you will lose and end the SH series.
You will really show them.
Making inaccurate assertions to satisfy your unhappiness with this add on does not do anything but stir the pot and continues a negative aspect.
The opposite of love is not hate. It is indifference.
I was part of a team advising on CFS4 so have a clue but am sure you would know more about something you know nothing.
CFS3 required being totally rebuilt by the mod community, which we did and made it far superior to IL-2. Anyone that got into it had to be willing to spend huge amounts of time tweaking and most just wanted to fly in WWII so IL-2 was much better for them (as well as much better online)
But, I did not have to attack IL-2 because the gaming community preferred it 10 to 1. I was indifferent to it as I was involved in something far superior. I simply did not care and did not bother with it.
You, however, are far from indifferent over Seawolves and are throwing a hissy fit over something none of us can do anything about.
Except choose not to buy it. That does not require a post here and is actually more effective.
Wulfmann
[/quote] The book bit is preposterous and not applicable here. A better example would be if someone took War and Peace, used most of the same book but changed a few words (The mod maker) and then declares he owns the book and not the published author.
Ubi owns these files and you agree to that when you install the game. The fact they leave it open is partially so we will improve it for our pleasure and later, if they so choose, there treasure.
[/quote]
A better example would be if someone took (IE) the mod makers work, used most of the same mod but changed a few things (X1) and then declares he owns the mod, and not the mod maker who made it different. (X1 even sold it)
Does X1 own the .exe type files? or the .ogg? or .jpeg, .mp3, .txt, .cfg and so on??
Then my whole computer belongs to X1..
Maybe, just maybe they own the "composition", but when a modder changes that, the file isnt the original one anymore. And if X1 "own" the original one, they sure as h*** doesnt own the other one (the one that the modder made, using letters and words that human evolution has made possible). If i buy a house (or some files), and i decide to build an extension/annex (which would make the house look different, and more valuable), who could stop me? The seller cant say "dont do it, because the house is copyrighted!" He cant even have some of the profit im making on a sale....
And if someone "steals" my extended house, and try to sell it themselves (with the annex and everything), how about that??
I respect your fight, wulfmann, but sometimes people just have too see behind the money and the greed, and think more ethical and morally over their actions..:rock:
"Does X1 own the .exe type files? or the .ogg? or .jpeg, .mp3, .txt, .cfg and so on??
Then my whole computer belongs to X1.."
That right there is the main point.X1 nor Ubi own any of these filetypes.
Also what the modders do falls under the "Fair Use Act" of the copyright laws.Here permission is not needed to modify the work.
The mods made by the members here are for non-profit work the benefits the public.So they fall under the "Fair Use Act" of the copyright laws.
This is part from a book on copyright laws that I have..Its called "The Copyright Handbook" by Attorney Stephen Fishman.
Congress passed a law authorizing the use of copyrighted materials in certain circumstances deemed to be "fair" -- even if the copyright owner doesn't give permission.
Often, it's difficult to know whether a court will consider a proposed use to be fair. The fair use statute requires the courts to consider the following questions in deciding this issue:
Is it a competitive use? (In other words, if the use potentially affects the sales of the copied material.)
How much material was taken compared to the entire work of which the material was a part?
How was the material used? Is it a transformative use? (If the material was used to help create something new it is more likely to be considered a fair use that if it is merely copied verbatim into another work. Criticism, comment, news reporting, research, scholarship and non-profit uses are most likely to be judged fair uses. Uses motivated primarily by a desire for a commercial gain are less likely to be fair use). As a general rule, if you are using a small portion of somebody else's work in a non-competitive way and the purpose for your use is to benefit the public, you're on pretty safe ground. On the other hand, if you take large portions of someone else's expression for your own purely commercial reasons, the rule usually won't apply.
John Channing
09-07-06, 05:10 PM
Hands up everyone here that has actually read the EULA when they installed SH3.
That's what I thought
JCC
*raises hand*
It is not permitted:
- To make copies of the Multimedia Product,
- To operate the Multimedia Product commercially,
- To use it contrary to morality or the laws in force,
- To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work,
- To transmit the Multimedia Product via a telephone network or any other electronic means, except during multi-player games on authorised networks,
- To create or distribute unauthorised levels and/or scenarios,
- To decompile, reverse engineer or disassemble the Multimedia Product.
HunterICX
09-07-06, 06:21 PM
:x CUT THIS X1 CRAP!
We have enough topics about this crapload about X1
How many do we need when all result in the same bitch fight.
:shifty: Those who think the products of X1 is full of stolen mods
Answer: DONT BUY IT!
:shifty: those who wanna buy it
Note: Whats on that CD are the same things you can download RIGHT here for free. on Subsim provided by many mod maker that share their work with us and let us enjoy it.
My meaning is:
Whatever X1 does , I dont care I just ignore it and do not buy any of their products in my part they can stick their CD right up their @sses.
HunterICX Out.....
This only shows how both S and J do not want to face reality and want to attack me with this as an excuse.
Pathetic.
The book bit is preposterous and not applicable here. A better example would be if someone took War and Peace, used most of the same book but changed a few words (The mod maker) and then declares he owns the book and not the published author.
Ubi owns these files and you agree to that when you install the game. The fact they leave it open is partially so we will improve it for our pleasure and later, if they so choose, there treasure.
You keep saying I am defending X-1.
I am not.
I am trying to explain reality to people that are in denial.
Demanding something be done about something nothing will be done has no merit in reality.
The fact something is not right or moral or nice has nothing to do with legality.
J, you ask me to quote what law? This has been investigated many times and not once has any cause been shown that has any legal merit. Not once.
Don’t agree.
Sue.
I dare you or anyone.
But, at that point you will lose and end the SH series.
You will really show them.
Making inaccurate assertions to satisfy your unhappiness with this add on does not do anything but stir the pot and continues a negative aspect.
The opposite of love is not hate. It is indifference.
I was part of a team advising on CFS4 so have a clue but am sure you would know more about something you know nothing.
CFS3 required being totally rebuilt by the mod community, which we did and made it far superior to IL-2. Anyone that got into it had to be willing to spend huge amounts of time tweaking and most just wanted to fly in WWII so IL-2 was much better for them (as well as much better online)
But, I did not have to attack IL-2 because the gaming community preferred it 10 to 1. I was indifferent to it as I was involved in something far superior. I simply did not care and did not bother with it.
You, however, are far from indifferent over Seawolves and are throwing a hissy fit over something none of us can do anything about.
Except choose not to buy it. That does not require a post here and is actually more effective.
Wulfmann
First, grant me the courtesy of calling me by my name, Joe and not an initial. Second, where have I attacked you? I just asked some questions and you answered them with this and your previous post. Not entirely to my satisfaction, as I would like to know if in fact there ever was a court case on this issue or the investigations you mention.
As for CFS vs. Il2, well you were on the CFS very good, and I NEVER claimed I knew why it was cancelled. You said it yourself the gaming community preferred it 10 to 1, and you graciously decided not to attack it because you were involved in something "superior" (never mind that Eirc Brown the famous British test pilot was very impressed with IL2/FB, critical too but thought it quite accurate, but your history knowledge is so broad I guess). Right, as if that is the same as what X1/CP are accused of doing. Sorry for the sarcasm, but I was always trying to be polite, asking pointed questions is not the same as attacking, if I had a mod would have said something, too bad you can't see the difference.
All well I can only laugh: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Here since you like these smilies have a few extra from me: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Seriously not worth my time anymore, I already have NOT bought SW or MED:u-boat so that is that. I will not keep quiet about games/sims I am unhappy with, or addon producers who produce substandard schlock either. :|\\
:x CUT THIS X1 CRAP!
We have enough topics about this crapload about X1
How many do we need when all result in the same bitch fight.
:shifty: Those who think the products of X1 is full of stolen mods
Answer: DONT BUY IT!
:shifty: those who wanna buy it
Note: Whats on that CD are the same things you can download RIGHT here for free. on Subsim provided by many mod maker that share their work with us and let us enjoy it.
My meaning is:
Whatever X1 does , I dont care I just ignore it and do not buy any of their products in my part they can stick their CD right up their @sses.
HunterICX Out.....
HERE HERE :rock:
I am in no defending X-1 never played it...never WILL, But these forums are supposed to be helping the SH3 comminity..these new guys coming on the forums see all these posts regarding SW:Bitm are going to turn around and not bother coming on the forums again and "WE" could loose some potential Modders. I also know that it can be turned around to say you are informing/ helping the comminity by telling everyone about SW and X-1..but please it has been going on for WAY to long...If people want to buy it who are we to stand in thier way, we have already informed them that most of the content is available through freeware..and when i do see posts regarding SW:Bitm from people who have bought it and are expirencing problems..i know it's not thier fault IF they hav'nt read any posts about it, but the ones who have read the posts and STILL gone out and bought it and are having problems..I sit here laughing.You read the posts, you still bought it..your fault.
Tread lightly guys, I would hate UBI to stop SH4 or hard code future games, so we can't mod them anymore, that would really hurt!:cry:
I don't like the ethics of what X1 did by using other peoples creativity, but not much we can do about it, especially since UBI has given them permission to produce expansion packs, if we rock the boat too hard it will sink!:down:
FIREWALL
09-08-06, 09:50 AM
You said it right and easy to understand.:up:
Wulfmann
09-08-06, 10:24 AM
Tread lightly guys, I would hate UBI to stop SH4 or hard code future games, so we can't mod them anymore, that would really hurt!:cry:
I don't like the ethics of what X1 did by using other peoples creativity, but not much we can do about it, especially since UBI has given them permission to produce expansion packs, if we rock the boat too hard it will sink!:down:
That is what I was saying but is actually much more concise and better put.:rotfl: :rotfl:
Joea, I was not trying to insult you by using an initial. When I respond I don’t look up to copy niks and only take note of an abbreviation. My nick has been spelled Wulfman, wolfmann wulffman wolfman, and many other different ways and I never thought it was intentional.
The thing to remember is when some guy bought this add on and finds our site how encouraging is it to him if we call him an idiot for buying it?
Do you really think people like being told they have poor judgment?
Tell someone that just bought a new car what a pile of crap it is and see if you made a friend.
How does it appear when we only degrade things we don’t agree with?
If you were planning a vacation would Baghdad be on your list? Why not, don’t you like being involved in bitter infighting?
These constant attacks do not improve or lift up our community or forum.
This has been addressed over and over and the bottom line is they did it because they legally can and those that don’t like it have said so and they simply don’t buy it.
For the record. I may have beta tested SW-Med and enjoyed doing so, but I play a version of Grey Wolves 1.1 with things from NYGM and I have extensively modified both those sets of files to suit my version of reality.
I do play the SW-Med out of Salamis but if the next GWX is what it claims I will likely be using that.
I should also state I never once sent Combat Planes any file I downloaded and was always on the look out for anything I suspected was someone else’s. I found two of Serg’s ships (The first two merchants) and asked they be removed and was thanked as they did not realize they were even in the game.. But, I do not do any work on ships (The modeling part) so would not have known about others and my request to Serg for clarification has gone unanswered so still don’t know what is what.
For the tired pilot thing many of those I worked with in CFS3 were retired (a few active) military pilots and frankly it was over my head as to the reasoning why they claimed CFS3 was much more realistic.
Oleg got every little bit out of his outdated engine while MS barely used any of their new engine’s potential. Please believe as you want, I do not care as that debate was lame then and only looks more so now.
We had a choice.
One that worked good out of the box and another that stunk but with hundreds of hours of intense work could be made to work better. Not hard to see why IL-2 was much preferred.
Wulfmann
I´m waiting the day when new release comes from X1;
Seawolves: Your Grandma´s Grey Wolves :nope:
Tread lightly guys, I would hate UBI to stop SH4 or hard code future games, so we can't mod them anymore, that would really hurt!:cry:
I don't like the ethics of what X1 did by using other peoples creativity, but not much we can do about it, especially since UBI has given them permission to produce expansion packs, if we rock the boat too hard it will sink!:down:
Well, if the do that, they are really stupid. Nothing increases the lifespan of games like mods. How many have gotten interested in SH3 because of the two supermods?
Here's a clarifcation.
Mods which modify ingame files (say modified campaign file, or kitbashed ships, or a modified skin for a u-boat) are indeed Ubisoft's property and can be licensed to CombatPlanes without modders being able to do anything about it.
Original sounds, original text, completely new textures and new models (not kitbashed) are however copyright of the author and it would be illegal for CombatPlanes or anyone else to use them without permission.
Don't like it? Well, as I've increasingly come to realise, modding is a fools paradise. What you gain in convenience (game engine already set up and waiting) you lose in actual creative control and long-term commitment. It's increasingly my contention that if you want to contribute something positive in the simulation sphere, contribute to an open source project.
www.dangerdeep.net - u-boat simulation
www.flightgear.org - civilian flight simulator
Wulfmann
09-08-06, 06:37 PM
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=305952#post305952
A new twist requires a new thread.
Wulfmann
The whole idea of intellectual property goes against everything that our entire culture is based on. For thousands of years our greatest authors and poets have ripped off the greatest of the last generation and from that have come our greatest pieces of literature. The idea has been for centuries that the next generation is supposed to take from the last generation in order to improve on it and thus move society forward.
Now apparently if someone wants to do something they have to start from scratch. This idea of a person or even worse an abstract corporate cosnciousness owning all the rights to an idea which has real cultural significance means that we as free individuals are actually more and more forbidden from expressing ourselves. Games aren't exactly high culture and these mods aren't on the same level as War and Peace but the application is universal. An idea belongs to no one but the law says otherwise. Obviously the ideas of copyrights were designed to protect individuals from being cheated and that is of course a good idea. However it has been perverted by the Microsoft generation and now the individuals right to expression is actually under threat. Musicians have to sign over rights of their music to corporations just to get it recorded. And look at the recent case with the Davinci Code and The Holy Blood, The Holy Grail in court. Apparently now our history is supposed to belong to the author of a book discussing it.
I reject these assertiosn that Ubi owns mods because I reject the idea that they own coding. I'm an open source lover. I believe in sharing. Guess what I'm socialist too. So screw American law and what it says we can and caonnot do. The American legal system has been perverted consistently for decades anyway. Intellectual property doesn't favour small individuals or society at large. It favours large corporations beacause it favours those with wealth and lawers. The cost of maintaining a copyright is high and defending it in court is similar. The American constitution has been forgotten in the US and capitalist fervor has replaced liberty. The interests of the individual as was the original insight of the constitution is not reflected in many of the laws passed recently. look at the current attack on the internet brought forward in Congress. If that law were passed it would favour corporations and limit individuals from using the internet for themselves.
If we're not careful we'll prove Marx right and one day we'll wake up in a society in which the average man has been disenfranchised by his own society. That's where he says communism will arise. Now we don't want a commie loving US of A do we?
Wulfmann
09-08-06, 08:27 PM
Disney is based entirely on ripping off the classics like Brothers Grimm. They even stole their centercastle from Neauschwanstein castle in Bavaria. They freely admit the laws they help enact to protect what they stole would prevent them from doing the same thing today.
However, UBI goes by French Law and international agreements so the US is bad HMMM-kay thing is not what applies here.
Wulfmann
elite_hunter_sh3
09-08-06, 09:09 PM
hey everyone heres an idea FORGET ABOUT SW!!!
jeez if any legal action was possible the modders wud have taken it. cut the sw spamming ffs , wulfman keep explaining to pple the blaa blaa blaa u say about the ubi EULA , personally im gonna ignore these stupid threads, x1 stole it BIG DEAL ITS IN THE PAST ITS OVER , MOVE ON WITH LIFE , right now im not buying sh4 until i see ingame videos of it. and if these threads keep popping up who knows how i might get sh4
To be honest, I have not been following this thread so much. I know it's about stealing mods a.s.o and then selling them. A couple a day ago I ran over this:
http://www.megastore.se/template/next%2CProduct.vm?itemid=1578748&source=1700
It's a online-store selling game and other stuf
have been thinking of sending them a mail and explain what they are selling. But I have not enough knowledge about this subject.
Markus
Disney is based entirely on ripping off the classics like Brothers Grimm. They even stole their centercastle from Neauschwanstein castle in Bavaria. They freely admit the laws they help enact to protect what they stole would prevent them from doing the same thing today.
However, UBI goes by French Law and international agreements so the US is bad HMMM-kay thing is not what applies here.
Wulfmann True but the idea of intellectual property began in the US however it has spread throughout the world. I cite the US because it is the #1 proponent of it because it is the major economic force in the world thus it has great impact on world law. Precedents set in the US very often find root in other countries. How else could so many nations trade so easily? Harsh differences in basic concepts such as ownership between two countries would lead to a very difficult relationship. Thus you also see why the US could easily pressure lesser nations to adopt particular laws or policies. We shouldn't dsicount the evil US just yet.;)
Fact is though that it's not really the US but major corporations. However they have vast control over America's legislative policy and are much more prolific lobbiers than any public or individual interest. The corporations are beginning to have a monopoly of the democratic replublic. In Canada it's just as pronounced.
Jimbuna
09-09-06, 06:14 AM
Tread lightly guys, I would hate UBI to stop SH4 or hard code future games, so we can't mod them anymore, that would really hurt!:cry:
I don't like the ethics of what X1 did by using other peoples creativity, but not much we can do about it, especially since UBI has given them permission to produce expansion packs, if we rock the boat too hard it will sink!:down:
HERE! HERE! (x1000).....very well put/said Reece :up:
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