Is the swastika too offensive?

[shegeek72]

Since I created a Grey Wolves sig using it, and found out it's prohibited in Germany, I wanted to get feedback from you guys. I realize SH3 is just a game and the swastika
has been used as a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism and occurs in other Asian, European, African and Native American cultures, there may be some who find it offensive (even though it used in the game). If so, I'll remove it from my sig. Thx. :)

wikipedia on swastikas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastikas
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http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/sh3_dark_gw3c.jpg

[Hylander_1314]

I find no issue with it, but also understand the use in it's context. The game is set in WWII Germany, so...........................

But I'm also not a believer in rewriting history to make it more politically correct as some people seem to have a dire need too.

The thing to remember is as you said, it's just a game. It's too bad that a symbol that stood for good luck, or the sun or the many other meanings behind it's use had to be pervesely adopted by a madman, and his henchmen.

[Subnuts]

Not unless it has nipples on it.

[Shahed]

I do not have any issue with it. I'm quite careful with what I relate to and connect to, I look for the meaning in things before I commt in any way. So knowing what it stood for in WW2, I would not associate with it.

I love the swastikas in game though. I think it's necessary for accuracy and for the atmosphere.

I can understand that some would find it offensive. Then again freedom of expression is just like this, some have views and associate with ideas and things that others find offensive. Freedom of expression does have it's limits, when it infringes on the rights, ideas, and values of others that's where it stops e.g We should exterminate all Germans (FOR EXAMPLE). This statement goes beyond freedom of expression and suggests genocide, which is a crime, as murder is. Therefore this statement and those who associate with it, associate with genocide. That's where freedom of expression ends, and the law steps in (hopefully).

If you are looking for advice mine is: examine what it stands for in context, in your sig, it's quite clear that it does'nt stand for anything Hindu, it stands for Nazism (not that you stand for nazism but that flag does), in fact the flag is Nazi. So if you are comfortable associating with that, then so be it. If you are not, then you should'nt associate with it. Lastly you should'nt do things because others find it offensive, but because you have your own values you do things according to your own values, independently.

[SeaWolf IV]

Its part of history so I find no problem with it.

[CWorth]

I have no issues with it being shown or used..if used in a historical context and no other.

Being this is a WW2 German Uboat sim the use of the swastika is to be expected.It's the close minded ones that will have an exception to it..or ones that want to hide/shield themselves from the truth of history.

[Marriott]

I have no problem with it. Its historical and relates to the game. Theres no point in trying to ignore history.

[THE_MASK]

Who cares:yep: , looks better than say this

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7999/sh3darkgw3ccopywb9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[shegeek72]

Who cares:yep: , looks better than say this

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7999/sh3darkgw3ccopywb9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Good point. :smug:

[Deep-Six]

I too have no problem w/ it.:D

[enaceo]

No prob with it either.It's just a symbol what harm can it do?
As long as it's not used by weird neo-nazis to relate to Hitler,just use it !

On a side note,why is the swastika prohitibited,but using communist signs/symbols not?
Just because they won the war?
Stalin was a "good" friend of Hitler in the beggining and helped him somewhat.And also,I heard this from my grand-mother and father (I mean no disrespect to anyone who is russian or has had russian relatives in the war ,I don't want to insult your family and I respect them for the fact that they went to war dressed in nothing but some thick clothes with a cartrige in their hands,just waiting for a gun to show up or to get killed,just because some politicians had a quarrel),they said that when the germans came here in Romania,the were generaly good to the rural population (they gave them chocolate , food,drinks (not to mention after they left Romania they left a lot of good stuff behind them ,like fridges,bikes,weapons ,cars,fuel,money ,and a lot of other cool things:D ),but the russians,they were in majority ...behaving badly to not say something more offensive.They destroyed the houses,took the people's food and drinks,got drunk like hell and other general bad things ...)

[Achtung Englander]

Zich Hail !

nah - its all good fun

[bill clarke]

I have no problem with it, and i hate political correctness, the war happened, get over it, to ban it's use in the context of the game is madness, how ever I would have no hesitation if a nazi flag were flown near me in tearing it down and burning it. I'll step down from my soap box now :smug:

[Safe-Keeper]

What I dislike is that you can't use a regular swastika without being associated with nazism.

The war happened 60 years ago, and it's not even the same symbol (level vs. on-edge).

Just start using it again. It was a peaceful symbol for thousands of years before that ******* Hitler came around and ruined it in less than a decade.

Pink Nazi Temple in Asia somewhere:p:
http://thormay.net/photos/korea/bansong/swastika.jpg

[joea]

No prob with it either.It's just a symbol what harm can it do?
As long as it's not used by weird neo-nazis to relate to Hitler,just use it !

On a side note,why is the swastika prohitibited,but using communist signs/symbols not?
Just because they won the war?
Stalin was a "good" friend of Hitler in the beggining and helped him somewhat.And also,I heard this from my grand-mother and father (I mean no disrespect to anyone who is russian or has had russian relatives in the war ,I don't want to insult your family and I respect them for the fact that they went to war dressed in nothing but some thick clothes with a cartrige in their hands,just waiting for a gun to show up or to get killed,just because some politicians had a quarrel),they said that when the germans came here in Romania,the were generaly good to the rural population (they gave them chocolate , food,drinks (not to mention after they left Romania they left a lot of good stuff behind them ,like fridges,bikes,weapons ,cars,fuel,money ,and a lot of other cool things:D ),but the russians,they were in majority ...behaving badly to not say something more offensive.They destroyed the houses,took the people's food and drinks,got drunk like hell and other general bad things ...)

Not this again!!! :damn: No problem with it.

enaceo, no doubt, but I heard another story from my relatives in Greece about the Germans (and Bulgarians), Italians were better even as occupiers. There were Romanians at Stalingrad weren't there? I wonder if the Russian soldiers coming from poor circumstances thought to get payback in Europe especially from those who attacked them. Granted Romania changed sides (and were used to attack Hungarians by the Soviets). not trying to excuse this behaviour but we have to look at all sides, and franklythe story of many in Eastern Europe is not well known.

[stabiz]

I see no problem as long as it is in context, as everybody else around here seem to mean. (Except those that probably havent spoken yet)

It annoys me that you cant have swastikas in the harbour traffic mod. The flags look really stupid without.

[Achtung Englander]

isn't also the Hindu symbol for peace ?

[andy_311]

I have no problems with neither it was part of history so I have no qualms with it.

[The General]

I don't play Silent Hunter because I support the Nazi regime. Anybody who does is an ignorant fool. When SHIV comes out it'll be American subs and I'll play that. I just love subs.:up:

[Dowly]

No probs with swastika. Game is a game and past is past. Showing a kriegsmarine flag in one´s sig isnt offensive, Doenitz didnt get to pick the flag design. :lol:

Just to clear things, the nazi swastika is standing on it´s tip, the other ones arent nazi swastikas.

Dang, why should swastika offence anyone?! It´s wasnt created by the nazis! It´s one of the oldest symbols in the world, it has four 'L' letters for Luck, Life, Light and Love. :up:

[Saukko]

No problems what so ever.
Sad really that old symbol was ruined by a bunch of nazis.

Another example of swastika used today, flag of Karelia Air Command of Finnish Air Force:
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7686/kareliaairhf3.jpg

[STEED]

The problem with the swastika is it's a symbol of hatred and violences granted it's only a symbol after all its evil men who start wars, the Third Reich is dead but the symbol goes on being used by the extreme right wing. I except most of us here look at it as a flag of the past but there are some who will not hold that same view and find it offencive, so be carefully and treat them with respect.

[CWorth]

The sad thing is that people are still blind to the true meaning of the swastikas.

The swastika itself is NOT a symbol of hatred..it is the Nazi's who made it as such.The use of the swastika has been around for over 3000 years...long before the Nazis ever touched it and was used all over the world by many cultures.

It is still in use today by Hindu's and Buddists and many other religious groups.

And even the US Army used the swastika as a symbol.The 45th Infantry Division use a yellow swastika on a red diamond background until the 1930's when it changed to a Thunderbird.

As well as until 1940 the Arizona state highway markers contained an arrowhead symbol with a swastika on top of it.

[stabiz]

That may be so, but thats not the point here. Many people find it offencive because of what the Nazis did with it.

[kiwi_2005]

The L' letters for Luck, Life, Light and Love. Only work for the wearer if they're a peaceful ppl. The symbol was used in the wrong way the day hitler designed the nazi flag he had signed away his life.

I have a problem with it., Whenever i see a nazi swastica it causes me to send a signal to my neighbour and wish them a good hunt.:arrgh!: But then again shegeek your asking us silent hunter players if we find it offensive???.

[buck28]

Everyone needs to remember this is a simulation. To make it accurate the nazi symbol is used. This is what makes it real, for histories sake. People that are offended need to stay out of the forums and stay away from the game. SHIV
is using another emblem that is hated, "The Rising Sun" of Japan. Although I detest this symbol as well, I do not want to play the game with a blank Japanese flag, or to have the red circles removed from the zero's.
If you play SH and the symbols offend you, you can remove them. Grey Wolves
comes with a feature to remove the swatstika if so desired. It's really that simple!
GREY WOLVES ROCKS

[joea]

Everyone needs to remember this is a simulation. To make it accurate the nazi symbol is used. This is what makes it real, for histories sake. People that are offended need to stay out of the forums and stay away from the game. SHIV
is using another emblem that is hated, "The Rising Sun" of Japan. Although I detest this symbol as well, I do not want to play the game with a blank Japanese flag, or to have the red circles removed from the zero's.
If you play SH and the symbols offend you, you can remove them. Grey Wolves
comes with a feature to remove the swatstika if so desired. It's really that simple!
GREY WOLVES ROCKS

Good point, ironic in the West you find lots of people with t-shirts, jackets or bandanas with that rising sun symbol which would be seen in a very negative light in China or Korea whereas over there you find bars with a Nazi theme. :lol:

[Takeda Shingen]

The swastika, in the context of the game, does not symbolize eastern or western pacifist ideology. In this context, it is a symbol of German National Socialism. As such, I prefer not to have it displayed in my game.

To make a simulation accurate, one needs realistic sea states, accurate hydrodynamic physics, properly-modeled acoustic conditions, realistic weapons loadouts and performance, and proper boat modeling. A flag may very well induce immersion, but it does not affect the simulation aspect the game.

[Jmack]

the cross is historical and it is not ofensive in any way and i believe that every historical game should have it...

its my opinion

[Sailor Steve]

When I attend an air show and a Bf-109 or He-111 shows up with a swastika on its tail, I'm glad to see it. If someone at that same airshow wants to display the flags of all the participants, I won't salute the German WWII flag.

I find it offensive that models of WWII German aircraft and ships have to have decals with no swastika, since that is the way they actually flew. I would take exception if my neighbor wants to fly one in his front yard.

Within the game I would be offended if I couldn't have the ships flying the proper flag. Shegeek, If you want to have the proper Kriegsmarine flag in your sig alongside your U-boat, I'm behind you 100%. I think it looks fine.

[SubSerpent]

Well, this is my feeling about it...

A flag is only as powerful as the people who stand behind it and since Hitler and his goons are out of power and never to return I say there is no problem with it as long as it's not used in any other way outside of a historically accurate context.

You dont' see people getting all bent out of shape over the Jolly Roger anymore do you? People actually fly those for fun ontop the masts of their sailboats. Does the Coastguard give a damn? No. Does anybody? No. Yet there are people that still do pirating out at sea by boarding, murdering, stealing, raping, etc.

The only flag that you shouldn't fly now that really gets people pissed is the U.N. flag.

[The Noob]

Geez People, it's just a *meep*ing symbol!:lol:

No Problems with that, especially if it is used in a Historic Game or Movie. I'm against it begin used in the Public though, since that would make it easier for Nazis.

[Takeda Shingen]

Thankfully, the designers of the game have rendered the installation so that flags may be edited to the taste of the individual owner. If one wishes to have the flags, they may do so. If they do not, they may alter them. They have, therefore, struck the delicate balance for the user. Thus, the issue is moot, for one may have it, or not have it as they see fit.

[SteamWake]

Im really supprised that no one brought this one up !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5275866.stm

[Safe-Keeper]

I saw that on a Norwegian site, too.

Reminds me of the Europeans who walk around with Che Guevara-T-shirts:roll:.

Hasta ignorancia la siempre, amigos Communisticas! Er, pronto:p!

Yes, my Spanish s***s:-?...

[Qairyl]

I really don't mind it that much. It's historically accurate and whatnot, and it just wouldn't be as immersive without it. I build model planes every now and again, and whenever I get a German plane without it on the decal sheet, I just paint it on myself:up:

An interesting side note: I recently bought 3 models at once: a 1:48 Revell Bf 109E-4/7 Trop., a 1:32 Hasegawa Me 163B, and a 1:48 Tamika Do 335A. Only the two Japanese models actually included the swastika on the decal sheet; but all of the part lists and directions only mark it as a black diamond...

-Qairyl

[fredbass]

We're talking about a computer game which is in the category of simulation, so it would be inappropriate if it were not included. (think of it as a biography or a documentary or a true story, so to speak). It just wouldn't be right without it.

[Takeda Shingen]

There are no flags in Dangerous Waters. It remains a simulation in the truest sense of the word. This is because a flag does not simulate submarine operations. In fact, my box has the words, 'submarine simulation' printed all over it. It does not say 'historical documentary' or 'virtual flag display case'. You could make the Kriegsmarine flag into a smiley face on a purple background. It would not change the simulation of submarine warfare, which is the aim of the product.

[enaceo]

There are no flags in Dangerous Waters. It remains a simulation in the truest sense of the word. This is because a flag does not simulate submarine operations. In fact, my box has the words, 'submarine simulation' printed all over it. It does not say 'historical documentary' or 'virtual flag display case'. You could make the Kriegsmarine flag into a smiley face on a purple background. It would not change the simulation of submarine warfare, which is the aim of the product.


But isn't trying to identify the flags part of the simulation?

[Takeda Shingen]

And so, identify the flag. Does it matter what it is? If purple flags are friendly, green flags are hostile, and orange flags are neutral, do you not have a simulation of operations?

EDIT: As such, you have a realistic depiction of archaic diesel-electric submarine operations. This is without swastikas, crosses, stars, stripes, hammers and sickles, rising suns or even Stars of David. Still, the mechanics of simulation and warfare are the same. Many of you do not like to play in this manner. Many of you do. Either is fine.

Some of you prefer to look at historical swastika flags in you game. This is fine. It is your copy of the game. You may play as you see fit, and there is nothing wrong with doing so. You are not labeled a fascist, bigot, racist, anti-semite, litterbug, grifter, drunkard or pickpocket. There is no precedence for simulation involved. You view this for immersion purposes and nothing more. This being stated, why not just say this in the first place? Why invent grandiose reasons for using flags of any type? Too much is made of this.

[popol0011]

I have absolutely nothing aigainst the use of that symbol. In fact , like many others have said , it IS part of the game...

[enaceo]

And so, identify the flag. Does it matter what it is? If purple flags are friendly, green flags are hostile, and orange flags are neutral, do you not have a simulation of operations?

I was actually talking about the "no-flag" bit .

[Takeda Shingen]

And so, identify the flag. Does it matter what it is? If purple flags are friendly, green flags are hostile, and orange flags are neutral, do you not have a simulation of operations?

I was actually talking about the "no-flag" bit .

Platform identification is accomplished through ESM and Narrowband Signal Analysis in Dangerous Waters. No flags are modeled in the game, and putting your periscope up within 1000 yards of the enemy is suicide.

[shegeek72]

The L' letters for Luck, Life, Light and Love. Only work for the wearer if they're a peaceful ppl. The symbol was used in the wrong way the day hitler designed the nazi flag he had signed away his life.

I have a problem with it., Whenever i see a nazi swastica it causes me to send a signal to my neighbour and wish them a good hunt.:arrgh!: But then again shegeek your asking us silent hunter players if we find it offensive???.
Yes, and thanks to all who've expressed their feelings and opinions! :rock:
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http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/sh3_dark_gw3c.jpg

[kiwi_2005]

:gulp:

[Eichenlaub]

Since this is a historical game, I have no qualms about it. I would object to SHIII simmers walking down my street with one on their way to a clan-meeting...

The new youths have to get their knowledge from somewhere and if it's through games, we had better not make them too politcially correct, lest they know not the truth.

For the modellers: if you buy a model that comes without swastika decals, you might want to model those planes (if they are fighters) as a JG 53 Pik-As plane. JG 53 dropped the swastika fairly early in the war (in 1942 I believe) after a disagreement between the Geschwader top and the Luftwaffe top.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[IronOutlaw]

If anyone has visited the Marine Ehrenmal at Laboe near Kiel, you will find a collection of all thr ensigns flown by the German Navies from the beginning until today. Hanging in its rightful place is the Kriegsmarine Ensign.

Another point on the Hakenkreuz in Germany is that it is okay to use it as long as it its use is in a a sort of official historical context. For example, in the Army Museum in Koblenz, all the displays of Wehrmach uniforms and medals have the Hakenkreuze where it is supposed to be.

Like one other person has said in this thread, I also take offence at organisations having to be politically correct by removing the Hakenkreuz thereby creating an incorrect image of history. It's like expecting the Russians to make the hammer and sickle illegal because of the deaths Stalin was responsible for, (considerably more than Hitler I might add)!

Leave the past as it was and in the past.

[SkvyWvr]

This is a game. No one here is marching through the streets destroying Jewish shops and beating up political opponets. The symbol is a part of history. In the states, there are those who get upset at the sight of a Confederate flag. I'm a Yankee but I understand what that flag meant. IMHO people who have a problem with this have too much time on their hands.:nope:

[Redwine]

Is the swastika too offensive?

Sure it will depend on each personal feelings, in my case it is only a part of history, nothing more, really i can remember if it is into my installation or not, i need to reopen the sim or look into the graphics, i have places where it is, and another places or graphics where it is in blank or replaced by a simple cross.

Are the roman simbols prohibited, or may judes hate me because i descend from them ?

The little city of my father was builded in the top of a mountain to resist the Anibal invasion, there is a roman bridge you can use today, my grandfather always tells me when i was a kid, ..."you are not a lamb of any F$%% god, you are a wolf of Mars"..., i have lot of judes friends, they know i dont belive in god, we talk too much about it, they know my people made many more damage to their people than the Adolf, and they never hate me.

It is just history guys... of course, may be people with diferent feeling, if you make a mod, just give the people the 2 choices, to have it or not.

[FIREWALL]

What does IHMO mean ?:-?

[enaceo]

What does IHMO mean ?:-?
In My Humble Opinion :up:

[Dantenoc]

No no no, I think you're all missing the real issue... It doesn't matter if it is offensive or not, that's not the reason why they left it out of the game in the first place. As I understand it, the real issue is being able to sell the product in some European countries where the symbol is ILEGAL, that's it. This debate is so old.... back from the days of "Wolfenstein 3D", when ID software had legal problems selling their game to german costumers.

no?

[KL Seestern]

Im really supprised that no one brought this one up !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5275866.stm

What's really absurd is the claim by the restaurant owner, quoted in the article: "Our intention was not to glorify Hitler - or his atrocities or ideology in any way - and we regret the anguish caused by the use of this name".

[Pablo]

Hi!

I personally don't mind using a swastika in the context of SH3, but I could certainly understand someone who lost a family member or someone close to them to Nazi barbarism not wanting to do so.

Pablo

[P_Funk]

Im really supprised that no one brought this one up !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5275866.stm
What's really absurd is the claim by the restaurant owner, quoted in the article: "Our intention was not to glorify Hitler - or his atrocities or ideology in any way - and we regret the anguish caused by the use of this name".
Indeed. You have to be a real fool to not realize what putting Hitler's face up in public would mean. But not to worry the Jews were right on top of that one!:up: Though I might add I'm also tired of the hyperactive jewish reaction. Can't we just say "please it's in bad taste to show such an image. Sir it is wrong." Besides who is in the right state of mind gonna be seen walking into that palce? It's hard to disarm the power of Hitler's image if we continue to treat him like he's still alive and waiting to invade the Yurals.

History is history. People who get all bent out of shape who weren't even there really ought to calm down. Some people might find the confederate flag offensive or the British ensign because their personal history saw the respective power commit atrocities to their ancestors. What we really need to do is stop being so angry at other people. Respect history by learning from it. If Jews always get so angry cause some dumb idiot had a bad idea we're just perpetuating the hatred which these symbols wrought accross the world so long ago.

But as for the swastica in a game I like seeing it. Some people say it's a simulation and the politics and national loyalties of the conflict are irrelavent. I say that's bull. You might ignore what the game means but a simulation is recreating an event or a series of events. The fact is we are pretending we're a bunch of german sailors sinking british and allied tonnage in a global war in which our side is lead by the Nazi party. I'm not a fascist. But I also know that I'm satisfying a fetish. One which almost everyone has in some form or another. We are all fascinated by the perverse world of war and especially in playing the side of the bad guys.

So a swaztica represents Hitler's regime in the context of SH3. That reminds me of what I'm experiencing. And even though it's a game and I get a rush of exitement when I sink a ship I can also take a greater understanding of the war from the other side of things when I go to bed. It gives me perspective.

But some people just do it for fun and don't give a **** about Hitler. It's all about you. What you want and what yopu take from it.

Fly a swaztica from your mast or don't, but it's your experience. I just don't like it when people get all huffy about a symbol which they never had to fear as so many did 60 years ago. Lets remember but lets not replay the hatred that was so prevalent.

[Eichenlaub]

Hey Redwine, you wrote:


The little city of my father was builded in the top of a mountain to resist the Anibal invasion,...


Exactly what town is that? I'm interested since I wrote my thesis on Hannibal.

Sorry for being off topic.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[SkvyWvr]

What does IHMO mean ?:-?

:oops: IMHO

[THE_MASK]

Its just an abbreviation IMHO .

[stabiz]

For me this is like buying a Formula 1 model - say a Williams FW19 - without the Rothmans logo. I would for sure add it, even though tobacco commercials are far worse than swastikas in todays world. (:cool:)

Its all about realism, and they DID have the signias.

Maybe I would feel differently if I were a jew.

[shegeek72]

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1685/subsigcopy4hk.jpg
If I come to Romania will they give me a ride? ;) :up:
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http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/sh3_dark_gw3c.jpg

[Tuddley3]

I think in Japan, the Swastika symbol is a sign gor good luck. It is on some pottery from the 1700's and 1800's, I saw it on antiques road show

[enaceo]

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1685/subsigcopy4hk.jpg
If I come to Romania will they give me a ride? ;) :up:
--
http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/sh3_dark_gw3c.jpg


Not today,no,but if you come in 2007 ,when the sub will have been re-fitted ,I think they will:D
You might also meet me there:up:

[DAB]

As someone who does find the Swastica offensive...

I'd point out its not the symbol itself, but the context. I know the origins of the symble and have no problem with it itself. But the Swasticas on display are in the context of the regalia of the Third Reich which is the context of its meaning.

I don't use the swastica in the simulation - I don't find it neccecery for emersion and I can identify the alternative flag just as easy as I can the Swastica. Not because I can't bare to be around the symbol - but because I make the choice.

A choice to make the gesture myself, and a gesture to my Grandfather who lost most of his friends on Kristallnacht, was victimised himself throught the 1930's and who risked a lot to fight the Germans in the 1940's. If he were to walk in and see the symbols - he too wouldn't be draconion, but I think he would rather his grandson made the gesture to recognise what happened.

Saying that... its my choice - and if I really had a problem with your choices, I wouldn't be on this board...would I?

[Mokey]

I don't really understand how someone can play a game where you're a German U-boat captain tasked with sinking innocent merchant ships during World War Two if they can't stomach the sight of the swastika.

I always try to put it back into games that have had it removed, just for the sake of historical accuracy. I don't pretend to be any kind of history buff, but the German flag that came with un-modded SH3 just stuck out like a sore thumb to me, and ruined my immersion.

[Immacolata]

The sad thing is that people are still blind to the true meaning of the swastikas.

The swastika itself is NOT a symbol of hatred..it is the Nazi's who made it as such.The use of the swastika has been around for over 3000 years...long before the Nazis ever touched it and was used all over the world by many cultures.

It is still in use today by Hindu's and Buddists and many other religious groups.

And even the US Army used the swastika as a symbol.The 45th Infantry Division use a yellow swastika on a red diamond background until the 1930's when it changed to a Thunderbird.

As well as until 1940 the Arizona state highway markers contained an arrowhead symbol with a swastika on top of it.

Symbols have no true meaning, only the meaning you put into them. IF people put a certain meaning of racial hatred, nationalistic superiority feeling and the iron clad boot of opression together with the swastika symbol, well, thats what the symbol means. It is used in many parts of the world with other meanings, since they didn't have scores of heiling fascists using the symbol as an icon, under which they conquered lands, killed millions of innocent people and caused uncountable suffering for many more. No member of these boards can claim they are unaware of this connotation, so when they chose to sport the nazi flag anyways, they better have a real good reason to do it. Not liking politcal correctness, unfortunately, seems to be the new excuse for bad behaviour.

I am fine with having the authentic naval flag colours flying in the game. I take no offense in seeing the swastika. But I do not understand why people find it necessary to include this symbol in their bloody board sigs. It is just not necessary in my opinion.

I think in Japan, the Swastika symbol is a sign gor good luck. It is on some pottery from the 1700's and 1800's, I saw it on antiques road show

Yes, it is a character of the japanese language manji, also known as fylfot or swastika 卍. The actual nazi symbol, the hakenkreuz is spelled ハーケンクロイツ. You can find the manji on temples, or as you saw, other places.The nazi version took the liberty of revolving the symbol about 1/8th, or 45 degrees. You can draw the original symbol with the wings either way I think, the direction isn't important.

[Landshark]

a game where you're a German U-boat captain tasked with sinking innocent merchant ships during World War Two

Innocent? Have you ever looked on the decks of those ships? Some of them are carrying trucks, tanks and airplanes! ALL of them are carrying supplies which will be used in the war against Germany. That makes them legitimate military targets - not innocent at all.

But I digress.

Some skinhead moron marching down the street, waving a swastika flag while chanting "white power" or somesuch - yeah, that's offensive.

Some guy making posts on a website about a game about WWII submarine warfare who happens to include a swastika as part of his siggy - that's not offensive.

And the one has absolutely no relationship with the other.

[Takeda Shingen]

I don't really understand how someone can play a game where you're a German U-boat captain tasked with sinking innocent merchant ships during World War Two if they can't stomach the sight of the swastika.

It is very simple: No one dies as a consequence of Silent Hunter 3. No political agenda is served. This is a simulation of submarine operations in the Second World War, and as such, I did not have to swear allegiance to any political party or profess concordance with any ideology in order to purchase, install, load or play the game.

Since I have purchased and am the legal owner of my copy of the game, I am free to mute the swastika as I see fit. You are free to follow suit, or not, as you see best. Regardless, let's try to remember that this is a game; not a documentary, a history text, seminar, survey course or independent study. As such, let us try not to chastize our fellow forum members over something so petty.

This is SubSim, not Ubi. Let's be mature about this.

[Sulikate]

I have no problem with it. Its historical and relates to the game. Theres no point in trying to ignore history.
Agreed.

[MuscleBob.Buffpants]

Is the Japanese flag considered offensive? Will this also be detuned in SHIV for the South east asian market?

People around here still have long memories about atrocities committed under that flag.

[Gunner]

I'd be 'ave'n an interest in 17th century an WW11 events,so don't mind me pirate flag, jeez hope nobody here takes offfence to it :D

[Immacolata]

I'd be 'ave'n an interest in 17th century an WW11 events,so don't mind me pirate flag, jeez hope nobody here takes offfence to it :D

Employees of the Recording Industry might take offense ^_^

[Eichenlaub]

Gunner posted:


I'd be 'ave'n an interest in 17th century an WW11 events,so don't mind me pirate flag, jeez hope nobody here takes offfence to it :D


Actually, one of my paternal great-great-greatgrandfathers was killed centuries ago when he was randomly selected by pirates to walk the plank...I'm offended and considering a lawsuit against you!:o

Just kidding...:rock:

Joking regards,

Eichenlaub

[Steeltrap]

Is the Japanese flag considered offensive? Will this also be detuned in SHIV for the South east asian market?

People around here still have long memories about atrocities committed under that flag.

Depends on your point of view and level of knowledge. I'm Australian, and the most offensive part is the fact that the Japanese have, for decades, totally whitewashed their history from 1931-1945 in terms of what they teach their own citizens. No 'Rape of Nanking', 'Burma Railway', 'Deathmarches' etc....

Ironically, the point above is perhaps the single biggest reason to oppose 'political correctness' as it typically = ignorance, and ignorance is usually one ingredient in most atrocities.

As one of my favourite sayings puts it:

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!"

[MuscleBob.Buffpants]

Originally Posted by MuscleBob.Buffpants
Is the Japanese flag considered offensive? Will this also be detuned in SHIV for the South east asian market?

People around here still have long memories about atrocities committed under that flag.


Unfortunately there are no irony tags that I could place around my original post.

I was trying to bring up the point that if people find a swastika offensive, why don't they also find the Rising Sun offensive?

Ironically, the point above is perhaps the single biggest reason to oppose 'political correctness' as it typically = ignorance, and ignorance is usually one ingredient in most atrocities.

Accusing me of being (1) politically correct and (2) ignorant is neither appreciated or valid.

[Soviet_Sharpshooter]

Thats a good point about the Japanese flag.. if anything people in the US, Britain, Australia, China and the Dutch should be horribly offended, as there people were used as slave labour by the japanese.


But i realise its a white flag with red dot.. :rotfl:

As for the Swastika.. its nothing to be worried about. The flag didnt commit war crimes.

[DAB]

Wasn't quite expecting such a 'inimical' response to a expression of personal choice!?

A flag is just a flag.

But why do I get the suspician that if I posted an image of me burning the United States Flag, there would be an outcry.

Its not the symbol i'm interested in, its the symbolism.

[Eichenlaub]

Thats a good point about the Japanese flag.. if anything people in the US, Britain, Australia, China and the Dutch should be horribly offended, as there people were used as slave labour by the japanese.

True. And the Indonesians might be offended by the Dutch flag considering our track record there.

Nowadays it is better since our government issued a formal pardon for Dutch actions in Indonesia (until 1949 known as the Dutch East Indies).

But all these examples only prove that any flag can symbolize something cruel or at the least sensitive to a certain group, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant, which was my original position on the subject. When in doubt, go with what was historically correct since that is less likely to change than the modern or future perceptions about its morality.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[Jimbuna]

As someone who does find the Swastica offensive...

I'd point out its not the symbol itself, but the context. I know the origins of the symble and have no problem with it itself. But the Swasticas on display are in the context of the regalia of the Third Reich which is the context of its meaning.

I don't use the swastica in the simulation - I don't find it neccecery for emersion and I can identify the alternative flag just as easy as I can the Swastica. Not because I can't bare to be around the symbol - but because I make the choice.

A choice to make the gesture myself, and a gesture to my Grandfather who lost most of his friends on Kristallnacht, was victimised himself throught the 1930's and who risked a lot to fight the Germans in the 1940's. If he were to walk in and see the symbols - he too wouldn't be draconion, but I think he would rather his grandson made the gesture to recognise what happened.

Saying that... its my choice - and if I really had a problem with your choices, I wouldn't be on this board...would I?

Speaking personally, I don't find the swastika offensive. The use or non use of it in the game is the choice of each individual depending on what context they base their perceptions on.

My grandfather served in the merchant navy during WWII and was lost with all hands when his ship (ammunition carrier) was torpedoed.

My father was a lot luckier, he also served in the merchant navy during WWII and often likes to remind me of his experiences eg:
Dunkirk (quote) " the army...ha, I was sick of taking them over the channel and then having to bring them back" (the usual banter between the services I believe)
Last ship to leave Marseille (with a French Admiral on board as a passenger he reckons) before France fell.
Convoy PQ17
First and only convoy to sail to Murmansk and back without an escort (escorts were kept back for invasion of Sicily...12 merchants sailed and 3 returned...£50 per man war bonus he reckoned):hmm:
Beaching his vessel on the Normandy beachead to allow the ship to offload howitsers with the derricks 3 hours after the first wave landed...and witnessing the bombing of a nearby hospital ship and the cowardly straffing of nurses in their lifejackets.
And the list/stories could go on and on...I'm sure many of you have family who have given similar acounts of their experiences.

Now imagine my surprise in the late 70's when during my time in the navy I visited somewhere called Port Kelang and came upon the symbol in a temple!!!:hmm:
It was not very long before my astonishment was abated by a simple explanation of in what context the symbol was being used for........namely religion/peace.

DAB is correct when all he is actually doing is excersising his individual right to make a personal choice. If nothing else, all sides of this terrible conflict are at least left with the freedom of choice.

PEACE

P.S. just a little footnote....approx 15 year ago my father and 32 veterans (all that were still alive and traceable apparently) of the Murmansk convoy were formally recognised by Russia who sent their ambassador from London to present them with individual medals in recognition and thanks for their deeds.:rock:
Question-What did the British Government give them?
Answer-Nowt, Zilch, Nada...feckin tight unnapreciative gits :damn:

[VON_CAPO]

As such, let us try not to chastize our fellow forum members over something so petty.

This is SubSim, not Ubi. Let's be mature about this. I totally agree :yep::yep::yep:

I do not think at all that anyone has to justify if to use one symbol or another.

If troublemakers are trying to mess with moral, guilty feelings, or whatever, they are in the wrong forum (IMHO, of course).

The focus here is to play and to enjoy a game. ;)

[IrishUboot]

It has long been a symbol of good luck in European culture, as well as many other cultures, and remains so. It's not an offensive symbol at all. There's a book you may find interesting, 'The Phoenician Origin of Britons, Scots & Anglo-Saxons' by L.A. Waddell (1924).

And the idea that the NSDAP flipped the swastika the wrong way is also a modern fallacy. The right facing swastika is the sun facing version, symbolizing hope, life and good fortune for our people. The other direction, representing the rebirth of the setting sun, was commonly used on gravestones.

"This [the Swastika] is formed from the simple 'St. George's Cross' by adding to its free ends a bent foot, pointing in the direction of the Sun's apparent movement across the heavens,i.e.,towards the right hand and thus forming the 'Swastika' or what I call the 'Revolving Cross.' This discloses for the first time the real origin and meaning of the Swastika Cross and its feet, and its talismanic usage for good luck. This swastika form of the Sun Cross occurs on early Hittite and Sumerian seals and sculptures and is very frequent in the ruins of Troy (see Fig. J J') – where it is very frequent on whorls, used especially as amulets for the dead, with the feet reversed as the Resurrecting Cross." (pp. 293, 298).

[bubblehead1948]

:cool: No. The swastika is not offending unless... There is a pointed political agenda; presumably national socialism which uses this symbol to promote itself. As long as its clear that the historical display of the swastical remains apart from a political agenda, than the swastika is nothing more than a historical emblem.

[Deputy]

My objection would be if it WASN'T present. I prefer maximum accuracy in any historical sim. If it's a Civil War sim they should have the Confederate Flag. To heck with all this touchy-feely politically correct junk :nope:

Dep

[Steeltrap]

Originally Posted by MuscleBob.Buffpants
Is the Japanese flag considered offensive? Will this also be detuned in SHIV for the South east asian market?

People around here still have long memories about atrocities committed under that flag.


Unfortunately there are no irony tags that I could place around my original post.

I was trying to bring up the point that if people find a swastika offensive, why don't they also find the Rising Sun offensive?

Ironically, the point above is perhaps the single biggest reason to oppose 'political correctness' as it typically = ignorance, and ignorance is usually one ingredient in most atrocities.

Accusing me of being (1) politically correct and (2) ignorant is neither appreciated or valid.

It seems you misinterpreted what I wrote - or I didn't make it clear enough. I was not, and am not, accusing YOU of anything.

The point I was trying to make was that suppressing knowledge, as per the example I gave of Japan's complete whitewash of their history as taught to their own citizens, is not a good thing. I would apply the same logic to suppressing knowledge of Nazis history (any history, for that matter).

To argue that ignorance is preferable to painful knowledge is, I think, a nonsense. Those who insist that flags and other such things not be seen/discussed etc. I tend to view as advancing the cause of ignorance over knowledge.

That was the point I was trying to make (and thought I had), so let me assure you again that nothing I wrote was intended to be aimed at anyone, and certainly not meant to be seen as an accusation (still not sure how it can be viewed as one, but apparently it was).

Cheers

[Skubber]

I am really impressed with the respectful tone of this discussion.
Most of the rest of the world seems to go #F&H$|O anytime a subject like this comes up.

Context and intent matter most in the use of a symbol, and it sounds like most of us can appreciate that, while remaining sensitive to the fact that once this symbol was used with terrible intent.

[Jmack]

i will never understand why the suastica disturbs everyone this much ... and what makes me even more confusion is why everyone tries to hide a part of history that involved so many people in the world , i truly believe that it is a matter to remenber and not to hide and forget.

it would be like hidding the roman coliseum, or ... like banning all crucifixes around the world ... really ill never get the point in this

and beside that the swastica it goes way more back in history than the national socialist symbol ...


oh well ...

so any pictures of it ? or history ... how did you get it ?

[Drebbel]

i will never understand why the suastica disturbs everyone this much ... and what makes me even more confusion is why everyone tries to hide a part of history that involved so many people in the world , i truly believe that it is a matter to remenber and not to hide and forget.

Why do people always think forbidding the swastika is done to hide and forget. I never understood that connection, it is simply not true.

It was forbidden by our grandpas and grandmas, those who where tormented and suffered in WWII. They decided to make it illegal, and many people are simply respecting their wishes. I can fully understand that after WWII they never wanted to see a German Swastika again.

Changing that law now would be a stab in their backs. And not only that, I regard the symbol as very offending myself too, therefore I am glad it is forbidden in my country.

[The Noob]

It was forbidden by our grandpas and grandmas, those who where tormented and suffered in WWII. They decided to make it illegal, and many people are simply respecting their wishes. I can fully understand that after WWII they never wanted to see a German Swastika again.

Changing that law now would be a stab in their backs. And not only that, I regard the symbol as very offending myself too, therefore I am glad it is forbidden in my country.

I don't like that symbol either (Even if i do not find it very offensive, only if used by EVIL NAZIS) but i still want my U-Boat stuff.

I mean, the Law should be Clear: Not for Nazi Propaganda BUT for Historics/Collectors/WWII Crazy Persons.

Most of them who were in WWII are now dead, or will be in a Few years. You can't stab a dead Persons Back. Well, you can pysically, but you understand. In such matters i believe in IMHO Logic Viewpoints and not in Morale Political Correctness bullcrap. Changing the Law now would be Correct. At least ease the Restrictions and stop that Political correctness spreading and restricting People to look at different sites.

Now i have enought. Time for a Proxy of a Country where no one Cares.

Then my IP reads "No-one-cares-land"=Site allowed.

[Drebbel]

Most of them who were in WWII are now dead, or will be in a Few years. You can't stab a dead Persons Back. Well, you can pysically, but you understand. In such matters i believe in IMHO Logic Viewpoints and not in Morale Political Correctness bullcrap. Changing the Law now would be Correct. At least ease the Restrictions and stop that Political correctness spreading and restricting People to look at different sites.

I guess we all have different views when it comes to loyalty and respect.

[DanCanovas]

we can all find the symbol offensive, what reasonable person wouldn't? but if you cant look at it because its "too" offensive then I think your making a mountain out of a molehill. Anybody that sees a swastika and has to "look the other way quickly" I think is putting on a show! I dont like the symbol but Im not going to hide in my wardrobe and pretend it didnt exist. I think you also need to look at the object. This is a navy medal awarded to U-boat sailors, not a Nazi party members badge.

[Drebbel]

It is definately a NAZI medal, that is why most of them have the NAZI symbol on them.

[Drebbel]

i think its very shallow to get upset by symbols if they're not being used in a negative way, such as this case.

I have never seen a German Swastika being used in a positive way, have you ?

[The Noob]

i think its very shallow to get upset by symbols if they're not being used in a negative way, such as this case.
I have never seen a German Swastika being used in a positive way, have you ?

Yes, i have. In some "Banned-Cartoons". Was funny as hell.

[Rhodes]

i think its very shallow to get upset by symbols if they're not being used in a negative way, such as this case.
I have never seen a German Swastika behind used in a positive way, have you ?

Yes, i have. In some "Banned-Cartoons". Was funny as hell.

Yes, I think one of thoose was when Daffy Duck is drop beind Germany lines in the Looney Toones "Daffy Commando". The only time I saw it was when the looney toones was being broadcast in the saturday morning a good few years ago.
When cartoon netwoork was broadcasting a few eps I thought that I was going to see it again, but the channel only put in the air the same eps. Never thought that was banned,the eps is great.

[Hylander_1314]

Drebbel,

If you wish not to use or see it in a game, I can appreciate that. And I do respect your attitude towards what the symbol in it's twisted sense stood for. For a little over 5 and 1/2 years, Europe was torn to pieces by those who glorified evil. This is not forgetting the countries that fell under the Nazi yoke before Sept. 1, 1939.

But I hope you can understand, that from a historical point, in a game that is trying to recreate what it was like to serve aboard a German U-boat during the desperate Battle of the Atlantic, that I would prefer to have it on the medals, and standards that were used. I do not, and will never condone what those evil men did to their own country, or the the countries that were involved with defeating them, or the countries that had to suffer under their rule. Because of their actions, and those that were allied with them, 50 million souls were lost world wide at the best estimate. It has been said that the death toll for WWII could be even higher, since it is impossible to account for every human life lost.

The underlying fact should be, that none of us or our children should ever forget the lessons of the past or things like what happenned in Bosnia, will continue to reoccur, with things like ethnic cleansing, and what not.

[Deputy]

I don't see how a swastika on a German WW2 medal immediately makes it "Nazi". Especially considering EVERYTHING during the 3rd Reich had a swastika on it. Items I would consider "Nazi" would be Nazi PARTY emblems like the armbands or party pins. Certainly everyone who had a swastika on their uniform during WW2 (which was the WHOLE German Wehrmacht) were NOT all Nazis. I would be rather careful out here in the West in the USA to apply the "Nazi" label to someone who displayed the swastika. It's an American Indian symbol that predates Hitler by quite a long time.
As a matter of fact, an American infantry division (the 45th ID) actually had a swastika as it's unit patch up until 1939.

Dep

[Drebbel]

don't see how a swastika on a German WW2 medal immediately makes it "Nazi".

Because the Swastika was the NAZI (NSDAP) party symbol !

[Danelov]

Originally Posted by enaceo
No prob with it either.It's just a symbol what harm can it do?
As long as it's not used by weird neo-nazis to relate to Hitler,just use it !

On a side note,why is the swastika prohitibited,but using communist signs/symbols not?
Just because they won the war?
Stalin was a "good" friend of Hitler in the beggining and helped him somewhat.And also,I heard this from my grand-mother and father (I mean no disrespect to anyone who is russian or has had russian relatives in the war ,I don't want to insult your family and I respect them for the fact that they went to war dressed in nothing but some thick clothes with a cartrige in their hands,just waiting for a gun to show up or to get killed,just because some politicians had a quarrel),they said that when the germans came here in Romania,the were generaly good to the rural population (they gave them chocolate , food,drinks (not to mention after they left Romania they left a lot of good stuff behind them ,like fridges,bikes,weapons ,cars,fuel,money ,and a lot of other cool things:D ),but the russians,they were in majority ...behaving badly to not say something more offensive.They destroyed the houses,took the people's food and drinks,got drunk like hell and other general bad things ...)


What do you want of the Russian after all this atrocities,violations and destructions make in Ukranie and Crimea by the invading Rumanian troops of the south German groups or armies in 1941-1942? .Candys?Like many citizens of your country you have a version very deformed of the historic reality.Antonescu was a allied of Hitler and the Rumanian Army together with the Hungarian and Bulgarian were part of the invading forces in the attack and invasion of Soviet Union the 22-06-41.Rumania was the initiall agressor and not the Soviet Union.And the conduct of the Rumanian troops was all minues friendly ,terrible moments for the Ukranian people and specially womens ,thousands were violated or forced to go in the prostibules of the Army.Also not necessary to speak about the treatment reserved for the Jews.
After the documents of the time by the Ukranians and Russians, the more civilized and "human" invaders in this south sector were the Italians,many forced to go to the war.

Rumanian can self consider very lucky to conserve his old borders before 1940 ,a gift of Stalin, he was absolutly not obliged to return the Transylvannia to Rumania from the Hungarian territory and also same for the territories of Bulgarie and Besarabia.
This partition of the country in 1940 was accepted by the King Carol II, but not for the people, and was organized under the recomendations and direction of Hitler.
Besarabia and Bucovina for the Russian, Transylvannia for Hungary,and a border coastal southeast region to Bulgaria.Of course , after that Carol II was forced to scape and go to exile with madame Lupescu and a great fortune, to evade the fury of the Rumanian citizens.His "virtual" sucessor was his son Michael,but the power was in the hands of the old 1th minister Antonescu, future dictator and the Fascist Iron Guard.

Like with Finland , Stalin was really very"gentle" with his defeated enemy and agressor(that was a complet surprise for the USA and the British); and Roumania was lucky to conserve his territorial integrity and again also the extra territory loss in 1940, and not the nation converted in a sea of "vendetta" and vengeance in 1944.

[Deputy]

Yes, the swastika was USED as a symbol of the Third Reich. But NO, it was NOT exclusive to Nazism. And everyone who wore or displayed a swastika was NOT automatically a Nazi.That was my point.
And I agree 100% with Danelov's post. Interesting that the swastika stirs up such fevered emotions, but the hammer and sickle gets completely ignored. Stalin and Communism made the Nazis look like Girl Scouts when it came to opressing and killing people. Yet there is no big outcry against the Communist flags. If a Soviet (remember them?) ship has a Soviet flag displayed on it (I haven't seen any Soviet ships in SH3 yet, so I don't know), would there also be a gigantic uproar to have it removed? I doubt it very much.

Dep

[Drebbel]

It has long been a symbol of good luck in European culture, as well as many other cultures, and remains so. It's not an offensive symbol at all.

Well, err, for some people it is, some even posted in this thread. So how can you make such an statement as if it was a fact ?

And anyone knows what a german swastika looks like, it normally looks very different then the swastikas from centuries ago. Anyone who can not see the difference needs to buy some glasses

[Kingcobra24]

For me, the swastika is merely a symbol. The people who brought it to the public eye the most - Hitler and his regime - are who made it into an evil symbol.
But, what I find MOST interesting about the swastika discussion is "one" person's views, which seem to have made a 180 degree turn from the near riot he caused at Ubisoft complaining about its use in the forums. :nope:

[Drebbel]

But I hope you can understand, that from a historical point, in a game that is trying to recreate what it was like to serve aboard a German U-boat during the desperate Battle of the Atlantic, that I would prefer to have it on the medals, and standards that were used.

Maybe that is the difference between us. The dev team has made zillion historical adjustments, mainly because a realistic WWII uboat sim would not sell at all. Too boring, too expensive. They also did not put any sorrow and grief in the sim, because the the sim could not be sold to people under 18. They also stayed away from the major WWII issues, because that would give the sim a political incorrect appearance.

All these changes are not even discussed by the community, maybe not even realized. Maybe that is because a major part of the community is mainly interested in the looks of the sim, something which is a very dangerous thing imho and will kick us in the back the coming years.

I applaud the the dev team is ignoring NAZIsm, including the swastika/songs/papers/radio/etcetera, in SHIII. I don't need SHIII to remind me of history. SHIII is a game and can in no way give anyone a historical balanced view of WWII

[SubSerpent]

The Nazi flag hasn't had any power since Hitler shot himself and WWII ended. This was over 60 years ago now people. The power of the flag is only as powerful as the people who stand behind it. This is just a simulator, nothing more nothing less! Play the sim or don't. Play the sim without the Nazi flag if that is your cup of tea. Quit whinning about it and quit posting "I feel I have betrayed my nation" by playing this sim threads. If you are that fragile a person, you might be best to not play any games nowadays since they all contain some form of death, murder, rape, robbery, war crimes, etc in them. THEY ARE JUST GAMES! :nope:


I recommend moderators delete further posts based on these types of threads. They are just troll bait to get a lot of attention and they have been done several times now already and almost 99% of the people on here don't care about the Nazi flag anymore. That reality has been dead for over 60 years now!

If people are not interested in this game for what it is they should leave and find some other type of game to play. Perhaps one based on personal morals like Black & White I or II? Or Fable? Or Oblivion? where you have to choice whether you want to be bad or good!

[The Noob]

I strongly disagree. Just to let you know.

They also stayed away from the major WWII issues, because that would give the sim a political incorrect appearance.
Political Correctness? GOD HELP ME! *Hides under Desk*
There is not one thing i hate more then political correctness madness.

Yes, i want to have "Bood 'n Gore" in my game, because it would be there in reality. Yes i want swastika. Yes i want songs (Only the Not-to-Nazi military ones, like "Westerwald"). And no, i am no nazi. I am left wing actually. And still, in my opinion, this should be included for Historical Accuracy.

So, now it's time to leave the thread, before this escalates into a full grown flame war.

I am against deleting such posts/threads through, because then we would be lowering to Ubis level. And that would piss people of.

[HunterICX]

the topic name already gave me a ''What the Hell'' moment

Is the Swastika too offensive? An symbol offensive? its an swastika symbol..
so If hitler used an red Heart symbol to symbolize his nazism...would the heart symbol be offensive now?

take that in mind , that this all is about an Symbol nothing more.

So if the Heart symbol was used by the nazis. would people not play cardgames anymore because they would say at an game of poker ''I pass this one , I only have Nazi Cards(heart cards)''

But remember we always used symbols. for example
the Christians in the crusade , we killed muslims under the Cross symbol, they killed christians under the moon with the star symbol.

but still is the symbol the bad guy?
No the people who walked under it. the people wo lifted the sign in the air and killed in the name of it.

Symbols are not to blame!
Symbols are Symbol they represent almost everything in our lives, you see symbols everywhere: Airports, traffic, paintings, religion.

the Symbol itself is not offensive , but the way that people used it and the story of those people behind it.

HunterICX

[SubSerpent]

Agree with HunterICX!


Note the original symbol was about peace and love.


If Hitler decided to use the American flag, British flag, etc only inverted or with slight changes like adding an extra bar or star this wouldn't even be a topic.

If he used a heart symbol on his flag would that means that the carebear with the heart on his chest was actually evil and spreading violence onto kids with his carebear stare? Creepy! :o

[stuka1166]

This topic reminds me of the protest that took place due to the "Enola Gay" exhibit at the Smithsonian...Yes, it dropped the first A-Bomb, Yes, many people were killed, was it the "right" thing to do ??...Good, bad, or indifferent, it was part of History.

Just like the swastika...It was part of history...When I play a "simulation"...I would like to "simulate" WWII...I would PREFER it was historically accurate.

[SubSerpent]

This topic reminds me of the protest that took place due to the "Enola Gay" exhibit at the Smithsonian...Yes, it dropped the first A-Bomb, Yes, many people were killed, was it the "right" thing to do ??...Good, bad, or indifferent, it was part of History.

Just like the swastika...It was part of history...When I play a "simulation"...I would like to "simulate" WWII...I would PREFER it was historically accurate.

Excellent post!


It's funny how so many people are easily offened by things from history that didn't even affect them directly. Most of us were born way after WWII and were not directly involved in bringing down Hitler's regime or oppressed by it.

Even Jews of today should drop it. Whinning and complaining about something that happened to their ancestors from over a half century ago is the same as what a lot of blacks do today in America.

They go around and accuse many white people that they're racists and mean to them for what their ancestors did over 200 years before. WTF?!?!

Yet a lot of them go around and call one another "nigga" and their girlfriends "bitches" and other derogatory names. Sheer ignorance and bad upbringing by parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., that all lived during those times and have instilled into their childern hatred and prejudice against the people they had a problem with during their days.

Of course some blacks would interpret this statement to be racists...But is it REALLY racists or is it the truth that they have a problem with?

I never owned slaves, neither did my father, or his father before him, or his father, or his father before him. Perhaps my great great great great great great grandfather did though? That still doesn't make me a slave owner and evil towards blacks!

[Deputy]

It has long been a symbol of good luck in European culture, as well as many other cultures, and remains so. It's not an offensive symbol at all.

Well, err, for some people it is, some even posted in this thread. So how can you make such an statement as if it was a fact ?

And anyone knows what a german swastika looks like, it normally looks very different then the swastikas from centuries ago. Anyone who can not see the difference needs to buy some glasses

A German swastika actually looks very SIMILAR to most other swastikas used THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. Better check your facts (and glasses) first. The distinction the German swastika has, is that it is normally dsiplayed facing clockwise and in a "rolling" position instead of flat on a side.

Here is a picture of the variations of swastika used throught the WORLD.

http://pi.zen.ru/arhiv/2002/005/img/swastika.gif

Dep

[HunterICX]

:-? I think this is going to get Deep now with the subject turning too America vs Japan. lets stick with the swastika symbol:know: Counts for me too :up:

[Gizzmoe]

:-? I think this is going to get Deep now with the subject turning too America vs Japan. lets stick with the swastika symbol:know:

Yes, please don´t hijack the thread!

[Deputy]

I find it interesting that anyone who hates the swastika and the Third Reich so much would even PLAY SH3. There...a bit more on topic. :smug:

Dep

[Spaxspore]

All i got to say is

I have no problem it what so ever,
i hate games that are suppose to be based during WW2, and the complely butcher the German flag of the period. Yes its a swastika, but that was the ruling party symbol at the time, and it replaced the prenazi era's iron cross.

Its better to learn from history, instead of pretending it never happened and hide it away out of sight. Because, those who do not know thier history are condemened to repeat it.

[VON_CAPO]

Its better to learn from history, instead of pretending it never happened and hide it away out of sight. Because, those who do not know thier history are condemened to repeat it.
:rock::rock::rock::rock::rock:

[Deputy]

All i got to say is

I have no problem it what so ever,
i hate games that are suppose to be based during WW2, and the complely butcher the German flag of the period. Yes its a swastika, but that was the ruling party symbol at the time, and it replaced the prenazi era's iron cross.

Its better to learn from history, instead of pretending it never happened and hide it away out of sight. Because, those who do not know thier history are condemened to repeat it.

Well said!!! :up: :up:

[Tuddley3]

First time reading this thread. I think If you bought this game, you should have known what you were in for. Like for instance, SH4 will most likely have the US Flag displayed. I am from USA, and I'm sure folks are mad at my country, but should the Star & Strips not be included in Sh4.

It's history folks, whether it's the Swastika, or the American Flag, It's gonna be in history books in school. The past is the past as far as I'm concerned, no hatred here to fellow Kaleuns here or at UBI forums. We all need to share this Earth, and we do a damn good job of it in subsim forums.:rock:

[mookiemookie]

This game is a historical simulation of German U-Boat operations in the Second World War. To exclude the use of the swastika, despite all the evil and horrible things associated with it, would be a disservice to the aim of the simulation. Immersion is key in a computer game, especially in a sim. It would be painfully obvious and a mistake to change the swastika in the game...it wasn't that way in real life, it shouldn't be that way in the game. The majority of the people who play this game are high on historical accuracy and realism (the poularity of the NYGM, RUB and GW mods back me up on this)

I'm sure all of us are mature enough to realize that we're even though we're "sailing" under the flag of Nazi Germany in the game, that we're not really Nazis, and we're not condoning the atrocities committed under that flag during that time period. It's merely a simulation of the tactics and equipment used by the Kriegsmarine during WW2. If you keep that distinction clear, then I see no reason to be offended by the presence of the Nazi flag. It's simply a simulation of the situation that these U-boat sailors found themselves in, regardless of political beliefs, as political belief had little bearing on whether you would be depth charged all to hell or not. Your skill as a submarine commander had everything in the world to do with it though. And that's what the object of the game is.

[Pants]

This game is a historical simulation of German U-Boat operations in the Second World War. To exclude the use of the swastika, despite all the evil and horrible things associated with it, would be a disservice to the aim of the simulation. Immersion is key in a computer game, especially in a sim. It would be painfully obvious and a mistake to change the swastika in the game...it wasn't that way in real life, it shouldn't be that way in the game. The majority of the people who play this game are high on historical accuracy and realism (the poularity of the NYGM, RUB and GW mods back me up on this)

I'm sure all of us are mature enough to realize that we're even though we're "sailing" under the flag of Nazi Germany in the game, that we're not really Nazis, and we're not condoning the atrocities committed under that flag during that time period. It's merely a simulation of the tactics and equipment used by the Kriegsmarine during WW2. If you keep that distinction clear, then I see no reason to be offended by the presence of the Nazi flag. It's simply a simulation of the situation that these U-boat sailors found themselves in, regardless of political beliefs, as political belief had little bearing on whether you would be depth charged all to hell or not. Your skill as a submarine commander had everything in the world to do with it though. And that's what the object of the game is.

Hear hear :rock:

[_Seth_]

Well, guys (and chicks), How about history...? Should we forget it, or just forget those things we didnt like about it, or should we learn from it, and never allow anything related to history in our daily communities... Thats a big question, mates....
Is there anyone here, reading this thread, who could admit to being Neo-Nazi's?
If so, i think the general population of this forum, and the admins would like you to find somewhere else to present your desillusions...
I Hate Adolf Hitler. I hate everything he stood for. I hate the whole concept of the third reich. But i dont hate the swastica. I dont hate the iraqi flag. I dont hate the US flag. H*ll, not even the German flag!
We all know what a horrible thing war can be. We dont play SH3 because we like to kill innocent people. We dont play SH3 because we like Nazi's. We play SH3 because we want a level of realism that exceeds the political correct history. Like it or hate it: Germany had the largest u-boat activity in WWII. So its natural that the axis side was represented in this game.
BTW: My car is an AUDI. Its German. I live in Norway. I havent seen anything of the Norwegian resistance yet, but i recon they will come and blow up my car, when they are finished with that Heavy Water plant in Rjukan...

Aristotle separeted the existense of things into Mind & Matter. Those who dont like the use of the swastica, thinks of it as a "Mind"-issue. Those that have no problem using it, sees the symbol as "matter".
It is not wrong to remember the war or the swastica. The important thing is the people that remembers this. Dont be narrow-sighted or stupid. Its not stupid to have an open mind.

I respect every opinion on this forum, when its within reasonable measures.

[Drebbel]

I Hate Adolf Hitler. I hate everything he stood for. I hate the whole concept of the third reich. But i dont hate the swastica.

You hate Adolf ? So I assume you hate the NAZI party too ?

From that the NAZI party symbol is not far away.

The NAZIs hat two main Symbols, Adolf and the Swastika. I perfectly understand people hating, or being offended by, the swastika

The Swastika is forbidden in my country, yet we are all educated about WWII, have many WWII books on the shelves, have many monuments in each city, have a national day to remember the dead, and so on.

It seems we do a decent job in being aware of WWII history and the lessons to learn. I wonder how that is possible, afterall we are ignoring part of our history by forbidding the swastika :arrgh!:

[_Seth_]

I Hate Adolf Hitler. I hate everything he stood for. I hate the whole concept of the third reich. But i dont hate the swastica.
You hate Adolf ? So I assume you hate the NAZI party too ?

From that the NAZI party symbol is not far away.

The NAZIs hat two main Symbols, Adolf and the Swastika. I perfectly understand people hating, or being offended by, the swastika

The Swastika is forbidden in my country, yet we are all educated about WWII, have many WWII books on the shelves, have many monuments in each city, have a national day to remember the dead, and so on.

It seems we do a decent job in being aware of WWII history and the lessons to learn. I wonder how that is possible, afterall we are ignoring part of our history by forbidding the swastika :arrgh!:

Good reply. mate. I hate Adolf, because he had the direct power to kill. The swastica didnt. The nazi party (NSDAP) was politically braindead, so that explain why they misunderstood the real meaning of the swastica. The evil isnt in the sign, its in the people who is using it. :rock:

[Myxale]

Wow, it seems this stirred quite some dust, eh mates!

But for some reason this debate is getting nowhere! +

Do i like the Swastika? No, not really since i don't mind this at all. That symbol's bee around the bend for ages.
Do I love Germany, Hell yes...and the rest of the world too!:rock:
Do I like Hitler? Hell no! Hope he burns in hell!
Do I Like Stalin? No, hope he holds Adolf hands while the rotter burns!
Do I like the USA droppin' the Bomb? Hell no. That for sure doesn't make them better than the bad guys they were fighting!

Do I like those things in a Sim! Sure! As for me personally, i can connect with he Marine and the U-Boot people, but not to the evil of war. And this is the fact why this doesn't affect me! Because it really isn't its behind my screen! And we’re in no way ridiculing the fallen by doing this!

Bah!

[Eichenlaub]

The Swastika is forbidden in my country, yet we are all educated about WWII, have many WWII books on the shelves, have many monuments in each city, have a national day to remember the dead, and so on.

It seems we do a decent job in being aware of WWII history and the lessons to learn. I wonder how that is possible, afterall we are ignoring part of our history by forbidding the swastika :arrgh!:

It's not completely forbidden - have you seen Zwartboek yet? I don't think a publisher would find the Dutch government on its path if he decided to market a game with a swastika here.

Place a swastika on your newly formed right wing extremist party and presto - you'll be getting an official response though!

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[SkvyWvr]

Ok, I lied, this is my last OT.

Finland was never an ally of Germany. Finland and Germany had a pact, Finland gets weapons and men to fight off the Soviets, while Finland allows german troops to attack Soviets from Finland.

You are forgetting something. The oh-so-big&powerfull US lost a war to a little men in pyjamas back in´60s. While under 200,000 finnish troops held back almost 2mil soviet troops backed by over 2000 tanks, artillery and aircraft. Where was US then? Where was US when British were fighting for their lives? Only after US was attacked, it declared war to axis. What would have happened if Pearl Harbor wouldn´t have been attacked?

But can you really say that US has never done anything wrong? Were the A-bombs justified? If that´s the case, 9/11 was too justified. What Hitler did was justified, so was the Stalins executions. If I declare a personal war towards you and shoot you, that would be justified too.

Those little guys in pjs were Soviet proxies and our government didn't allow the generals on the ground to effectively conduct the war. At least we didn't make a pact with the devil so survive.

I agree, Finland fought a hell of a good fight, but remember they only had to defend a tiny corridor. I am not putting down their heroic stand, mearly pointing out an important fact.

While Britian was fighting for it's life we were supporting their struggle with equipment and doing what the world seems to think we should do now. Staying out of it.

Read up on the island fighting in the Pacific and the casualities sustained by both sides. The Japanese were prepared to defend their homeland with the same ferocity they displayed at Tarawa, Saipan and other battles. The War Department estimated over one million allied casualities would be necessary to take the Japanese Islands. The defenders would have lost ten times that number. With these numbers in mind and, taking into account 214,000 total Atom bomb deaths, it is clear to see that the use of these bombs actually saved lives.

Oh, and if you shoot at me, don't miss because I won't.

[djdemo]

Other than the legal issue in Germany, if people are offended by Nazi symbols, they are probably not spending their time 'playing' at being part of the Nazi war-machine.

Historically that is what was branded no the uniforms of the U-Boat sailors, and so shuold it be branded on the uniforms of any serious recreation - be it film, or be it a simulation.

It draws you out of reality to change minor details, and simply hiding the swasitka, doesn't change the ultimate fact that the player is 'playing' at doing the bidding of Hitler... who, at the end of the day, was the commander in chief of all German forces.

I don't like games that use alternate symbols to the swasitka - for two reasons;

1) It's not historical
2) You should not break the association between German forces in WW2 and the Swasitka.

My younger brother did not equate the Germans he so loved in Axis and Allies with the Nazis he so hated from his history lessons.

[Boris]

From a pure asthetic point of view I think nothing looks worse than a swastika that's been removed from where it should be. I mean, everyone then knows what was in that space, so it may as well be there.
What will be achieved if the swastika is removed? Are some people afraid they might turn into a NAZI by having to look at the symbol. That would be like turning gay from watching gay porn. I do realise though, that for some people, seeing a swastika is the equivalent of reading the F-word. But like a swear word, the swastika is nothing more than a visual composition of lines, and fundamentally it is ridiculous to be offended by it.
It's no secret which side the u-boats fought on, omitting a symbol isn't going to change anything.

[Deputy]

I really think this whole swastka thing is much ado over ancient history. But for those who can't get enough of beating a dead horse, here's a website that sells a large selection of WW2 German music that can be added to SH3, as well as flags, armbands, medals, etc., from the Third Reich.

http://www.epier.com/store/outpostflags/default.asp

You can hang the flags in your rec room and throw darts at them or throw salutes at them....whichever you prefer. ;)
Of course, if you live in a country that bans these items, be careful about displaying them where someone might see them. They might inform the local Gestapo in your country and then you'd be in deep poop. Kinda makes one wonder if the liberated countries actually threw off all the oppression.

Dep

[Drebbel]

I really think this whole swastka thing is much ado over ancient history.

NOT so ancient for the people who are still suffering from WWII. Imagine you being in the last decades of your life an someone telling you the grief you have, caused by things happening to you as a kid, are ancient history. :-?

As so many I respect the sacrifice of the people who suffered in WWII too much to give it the label ancient history. I also respect their wishes to forbid certain things that where related to the NAZIs

It has nothing to do with hiding or ignoring history. But for me it has all to do with respect. We respect their sacrifices, then why not respect their decissions ?

[Myxale]

A good example Drebbel mate!:up:

[macstu23]

Im really supprised that no one brought this one up !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5275866.stm


News just in, it's now been re-named 'The Bin Laden Bistro'

[Deputy]

I really think this whole swastka thing is much ado over ancient history.

NOT so ancient for the people who are still suffering from WWII. Imagine you being in the last decades of your life an someone telling you the grief you have, caused by things happening to you as a kid, are ancient history. :-?

As so many I respect the sacrifice of the people who suffered in WWII too much to give it the label ancient history. I also respect their wishes to forbid certain things that where related to the NAZIs

It has nothing to do with hiding or ignoring history. But for me it has all to do with respect. We respect their sacrifices, then why not respect their decissions ?

Okay....HOW MANY of those people that are "still suffering" are playing SH3???
Not many I bet. My comment was regaring the swastika IN SH3. That is the context of this thread, since this is the SH3 forum.

As far as forbidding certain things related to the Nazis...isn't that the SAME THING the Nazis did during their regime? It's called censorship and under any guise it's just plane WRONG. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression are part of what the second world war was all about. You can't have any "except fors" when you fight and die for those concepts. Otherwise, it makes the whole war one gigantic waste of lives and effort.

Dep

[Drebbel]

As far as forbidding certain things related to the Nazis...isn't that the SAME THING the Nazis did during their regime? It's called censorship and under any guise it's just plane WRONG. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression are part of what the second world war was all about. You can't have any "except fors" when you fight and die for those concepts. Otherwise, it makes the whole war one gigantic waste of lives and effort.

This a much too simplified shortcut for me. Have a nice day :D

Drebbel

[Deputy]

As far as forbidding certain things related to the Nazis...isn't that the SAME THING the Nazis did during their regime? It's called censorship and under any guise it's just plane WRONG. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression are part of what the second world war was all about. You can't have any "except fors" when you fight and die for those concepts. Otherwise, it makes the whole war one gigantic waste of lives and effort.

This a much too simplified shortcut for me. Have a nice day :D

Drebbel

In other words, I win :rock:
LOL

:up:

Dep

[Boris]

I really think this whole swastka thing is much ado over ancient history.
NOT so ancient for the people who are still suffering from WWII. Imagine you being in the last decades of your life an someone telling you the grief you have, caused by things happening to you as a kid, are ancient history. :-?

As so many I respect the sacrifice of the people who suffered in WWII too much to give it the label ancient history. I also respect their wishes to forbid certain things that where related to the NAZIs

It has nothing to do with hiding or ignoring history. But for me it has all to do with respect. We respect their sacrifices, then why not respect their decissions ?
Okay....HOW MANY of those people that are "still suffering" are playing SH3???
Not many I bet. My comment was regaring the swastika IN SH3. That is the context of this thread, since this is the SH3 forum.

As far as forbidding certain things related to the Nazis...isn't that the SAME THING the Nazis did during their regime? It's called censorship and under any guise it's just plane WRONG. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression are part of what the second world war was all about. You can't have any "except fors" when you fight and die for those concepts. Otherwise, it makes the whole war one gigantic waste of lives and effort.

Dep

... wars are always a gigantic waste of lives and effort

[Dowly]

Well said, Boris. :up:

[Drebbel]

As far as forbidding certain things related to the Nazis...isn't that the SAME THING the Nazis did during their regime? It's called censorship and under any guise it's just plane WRONG. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression are part of what the second world war was all about. You can't have any "except fors" when you fight and die for those concepts. Otherwise, it makes the whole war one gigantic waste of lives and effort.

This a much too simplified shortcut for me. Have a nice day :D

Drebbel

In other words, I win :rock:
LOL

:up:

Dep

Yes you win, now go back to your homework !

[Deputy]

" ... wars are always a gigantic waste of lives and effort"

A statement from someone who has obviously never fought in one...else you'd know.
Some of mans greatest achievements, both personal and cultural, have occured while trying to destroy an oppressor. And many of them were actually FROM an oppressor. But of course, if you have blinders on and can only see the BAD in everything, you will have missed all of it. Too bad...so sad. :nope:

Dep

[Boris]

Ok, maybe I was being a bit generalstic...

Sure war has brought on many technological advances, at a huge cost. So what your saying is that it's ok to cash in thousands or millions of lives for some cultural or personal advancement? Stuff always happens, sure stuff is going to happen as a result of war, it's just cause and effect. War is never good, to say it's good would be to say it's ok to start any conflict whenever, for whatever reason. After all, look at all the good that come of wars... hell lets start another one.

Of course fighting an opressor cannot be avoided, theres already someone who has started the fight in that case.

Most soldiers who have fought in a real war have not liked it and won't ever want to again! You think if I get the chance to kill some people and get bombrded by artillery I'll realise its all worthwhile?
Sure it was ok try and stop the Nazi's, but the Nazis were wrong to start the war.

[KeybdFlyer]

I'd be willing to bet that SheGeek72 (who I notice has remained quietly absent) is sitting askance at the furore she has stirred up! :D
As for my own feelings? Anything that attempts to cover-up, alter, amend, hide, edit or dis-avow any part of history is contemptible.
To Deputy, I would like to point out that as he lives in the USA (as do I) he cannot decry censorship, as the USA is the most heavily censored country I have lived in, and I am including the time I spent in South Africa during the final years of Apartheid. I offer no evidence of this as the subject is hardly for this forum to discuss.
To Dowly, you have my respect (I hope you're suitably gratified, lol). Your posts on this topic have shown considerable restraint despite provocation and your arguments well-reasoned. Congratulations.
I feel that the Swastika shouldn't cause offence, but it undoubtably does to a sizable minority. Minorities, unfortunately, tend to shout louder and longer than the more comfortable-feeling majority.

[Deputy]

Actually, there is very little censorship in the USA. There are laws against screaming fire in a crowded place like a movie theater, but most authors in the rest of the world COME to the US because they can print or say pretty much ANYTHING they want. Flags are not only NOT banned, but are used in all kinds of displays from the most disgusting to the most patriotic. The swastika flag is not banned, nor are the Communist flags or any other flag. We even let lowlife scumbags like that Chavez creep from Venezuela come to the UN and spout off his BS about our President without anyone doing anything about it. There is ONE flag that has been removed from some buildings in the South, the Confederate Battle flag, but it's not illegal to display it in front of your house...only on certain public buildings. And the state of Mississippi still has the Confederate Flag as part of their state flag and it flies on ALL their state buildings.
You can march down the street if you so please and wave pretty much any flag you want.

Would I try the above things in South Africa or any Euro country? I don't think so.

Dep

[Boris]

Actually, there is very little censorship in the USA. There are laws against screaming fire in a crowded place like a movie theater, but most authors in the rest of the world COME to the US because they can print or say pretty much ANYTHING they want. Flags are not only NOT banned, but are used in all kinds of displays from the most disgusting to the most patriotic. The swastika flag is not banned, nor are the Communist flags or any other flag. We even let lowlife scumbags like that Chavez creep from Venezuela come to the UN and spout off his BS about our President without anyone doing anything about it. There is ONE flag that has been removed from some buildings in the South, the Confederate Battle flag, but it's not illegal to display it in front of your house...only on certain public buildings. And the state of Mississippi still has the Confederate Flag as part of their state flag and it flies on ALL their state buildings.
You can march down the street if you so please and wave pretty much any flag you want.

Would I try the above things in South Africa or any Euro country? I don't think so.

Dep

Chavez a lowlife scumbag? they musn't only be sensoring your news... they're showing you propaganda.
Your president isn't that awesome, in fact, in the rest of the world, where the media is not so controlled, people have a very different view of your president and your government. Not that it's a bad view, just more realistic.

[jason210]

The nazi flag is not just a swastika. It's a reversed swastika in a white circle surrounded by red, which Hitler designed, so it's not like it's "just a swastika". I believe it was originally meant to symbolise "Nazi strength" resisting communism, but it has since proved to be a very powerful and distinct symbol of twentieth century madness, inhumanity and brutality.

I know it's not allowed in some countries. The games by the Swedish company Paradox, - "Hearts of Iron" and "Hearts of Iron II" - both avoid the use of the flag, and refuse to allow any discussion of it in their forums.

Personally, I have no problem with the use of accurate historical flags on ships, or in games like SHIII. I mean, having a Nazi U-boat simulator is just as morally questionable, if not more so, than allowing the use of the nazi flag.

One thing I do feel uncomfortable about are those Nazi SS songs that you can get for the gramophone. I doubt whether U-boat commanders had any time for that bull****, and would much rather listen to a sexy (and banned) marlene dietrich or the like, to take their minds off things.

[Onkel Neal]

Public service reminder: I appreciate that this topic has been mature and civil. Thanks for keeping it that way. Remember, we can differ and still discuss it. :ping:

[mookiemookie]

As a public service announcement, please remember that views such as the ones previously expressed by Deputy do sound ultra-radical and jingoistic even to some of his own countrymen. Even to some from "good ol' boy" states like Texas.

Just don't want anyone paiting all Americans with a broad brush ;)

[shegeek72]

I'd be willing to bet that SheGeek72 (who I notice has remained quietly absent) is sitting askance at the furore she has stirred up! :D I'm a bit amazed at how long the thread has gone on - though it is a controversial topic. I'm impressed that the vast majority of the posts are civil. I think it's neat that a video game can bring people from all over the world together. You're a great bunch! :up:

As for my own feelings? Anything that attempts to cover-up, alter, amend, hide, edit or dis-avow any part of history is contemptible.
To Deputy, I would like to point out that as he lives in the USA (as do I) he cannot decry censorship, as the USA is the most heavily censored country I have lived in, and I am including the time I spent in South Africa during the final years of Apartheid. I offer no evidence of this as the subject is hardly for this forum to discuss.
I'm interested in your ideas on censorship in the US, as I've dabbled in the subject for years. Since you don't want to (understandably) present them here, could you PM me?

Today on NPR (US public radio) I heard a newstory about a German store owner who was raided by the police for selling anti-swastika items (a swastika with a bar across it). The thinking was that pro-Nazi groups would adopt the symbol, thereby circumventing the ban. Sounds a bit over-reactive to me.

On another forum there's a thread about the swastika. I was interested that the posts reflected those here: http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=77671 (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=77671)
--
http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/sh3_u100.jpg

[JSalinger]

Well, I find the swastika to be downright evil, regardless of its historical roots beyond Nazism and the Second World War. I'm Jewish, my father is Jewish, and so were all of those members of my extended family who were gassed by the Nazi scumbags at Auschwitz, Dachau, Mauthausen, Thereisenstadt, and many other places or were partisans who fought Nazi tyranny.

I have no problem playing SH3 and having the Bismarck, Hipper, Prinz Eugen, Scharnhorst, etc. with the swastika on their bows, because I know that the developers of the game most likely do not advocate Nazism, but otherwise, if you hold Nazistic views, do not acknowledge them in this public forum, or in private message to me, as there is a good reason for the saying "The Jews have long arms."

[Onkel Neal]

[Nothing is perfect, not even the US. Sure you're country has achieved a lot, and that's cool. But to say the US is the foundation of modern civilisation is a bit of a stretch.

Very true.

[csg_enven]

To sum this up...

I think the Swastika is not offensive..In context with WW2 history that is.

Other than that...If you're raising a Swastika...Or hailing it in public (most countries..) you should have a problem; same as any other flag that swears an allegiance to another form of govt./ideology no matter what it is.

But for the sake of games, history, modelling, ww2 in general; the Swastika is not 'in the wrong' and should be taken as a historical mark and soley for that.

------

For my own personal opinion though; I find the swastika to represent a lot of wrongs that had happened from the 30's (33 I think it was inducted to the party..I cant recall..It cant be 1918...Although the party-roots started then...on.) to the end of WW2. I can say with confidance that the wrong doings committed by hard-line Nazi-Party folks..and the SD/Polizei/black-brown shirts/etc. were in-fact horrid atrocity...that no man should have ever committed. (I am not trying to start a counter-comment to this..because I know..the Sov's and the Japs...as well as the Chinese and Americans/etc. have done their share..but for the sake of the actual argument...I argue that yes...as a personal opinion...People should parade around with a Nazi/Swastika in day to day life in modern times...Its just wrong...Same as if I had a flag that said...Abort-a-queer-fetus-for-jesus ; that wouldnt fly either..Or damning a specific race or party..but these are my personal ethics..and I stand by them..Soley for the common good of man..Hopefully my actions as well as others will help not repeat history.)

Either way...everyone has posted good points...some real good..some not so great...

Its all opinion..but yes...Can't change people..Or even try to understand at times.


Regards,
CSG_Enven

[edjcox]

The Flag of Germany today and before the Nazi's Black Red Gold flies, the Japanese chose to maintain their Red Sun on White.

The Flags in the game doesn't offend me our upset me. They are in Historical context....

What bugs me the most is a sinking ship with it's flag flying as if in air... Minor annoyance but a marvelous small opportunity for a programmer.:cool:

[Pants]

Going back to the original topic..
It all depends on the individual...if it's in game or not you can install it or not, most mods have it as an optional install so it's up to you the player, that is it in a nutshell

[joea]

Kpt. Lehmann great posts, all my respect for you and especially your granddad. Dowly just ignore it...not important.

I say again, let the Swastika in as an option, unless it is illegal in certain countries. Is that so hard?

[gray]

At the end of the day it is being used in a historical manner and not to glorify or promote a political belief! It may not be liked in some areas but it is an historical fact.

gray

[jeevesthegreek]

I don't mind the swastika on the flag in silent hunter it is historical fact. I am British, has anyone checked out the white ensign; the red cross was used by Richard the third in the crusades see what he got up too.:hmm:

[Gizzmoe]

Time to end this thread. If you like to continue the current OT discussion please start a new thread in our General Topics forum.

[Drebbel]

Dang , this thread was going fine. Maby posts and good discussions. Will look into splitting it up later guys. But got to run now, busy busy busy.

Ok, thread cleared and some post split away to a new thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=98777

[gimpy117]

too me the swastika is not an offensive symbol, in no way sould it be glorified or accepted if painted on a building for example, but it is only a symbol for a horribly oppressive government.I'm betting most of the controversy stems back to the Holocaust,however, im not of jewish heritage or know victims of the holocoust, so i can't account for the feeling of the affected groups but i can see how they can be offened by it all considering the horrible things done to them by the nazi party.

[joea]

Why the hell did you bump this two year old topic??? Doesn't anyone ever look at the "date posted" anymore??

[SUBMAN1]

Its purely history. Do not stamp out history. Nothing annoys me more than people stamping out history through banning something. The best way to remember the atrocities is to see the symbol that caused it, not to ban it from peoples minds. That is simply lawmakers putting a patch on a gaping wound.

Just my 2 cents.

-S

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Its purely history. Do not stamp out history. Nothing annoys me more than people stamping out history through banning something. The best way to remember the atrocities is to see the symbol that caused it, not to ban it from peoples minds. That is simply lawmakers putting a patch on a gaping wound.

Just my 2 cents.

-S

I'll add my 2 to the same pot.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

in my opinion.. nope, it's one hell of a flag design.. but since im slavic i disapprove of neo-nazis.. but then again hitler never hated slavs.. himmler did. .but thats a different topic..

[Dowly]

Its purely history. Do not stamp out history. Nothing annoys me more than people stamping out history through banning something. The best way to remember the atrocities is to see the symbol that caused it, not to ban it from peoples minds. That is simply lawmakers putting a patch on a gaping wound.

Just my 2 cents.

-S

Well said. :up:

[STEED]

Another dead thread comes back from the grave. :eek:

[Dowly]

I've said this alot of times and I say this again, what's the fuzz about reviving old threads that still could use other views on it? Better this than someone making a new thread about it, right?

[STEED]

I've said this alot of times and I say this again, what's the fuzz about reviving old threads that still could use other views on it? Better this than someone making a new thread about it, right?

I AM NOT FECKING COMPLAINING!!!

HOW MANY MORE FECKING TIMES I FECKING HAVE TO SAY IT!!!






Another great sarcastic post by me. :p :lol: :roll: :rotfl:

[Dowly]

I've said this alot of times and I say this again, what's the fuzz about reviving old threads that still could use other views on it? Better this than someone making a new thread about it, right?
I AM NOT FECKING COMPLAINING!!!

HOW MANY MORE FECKING TIMES I FECKING HAVE TO SAY IT!!!






Another great sarcastic post by me. :p :lol: :roll: :rotfl:

Lol, what would we do without you, old motormouth.:rotfl:Great guy! :up:

[STEED]

Just having fun Dowly, not having go you in any way, your a :cool: guy. :up:

[Deputy]

Its purely history. Do not stamp out history. Nothing annoys me more than people stamping out history through banning something. The best way to remember the atrocities is to see the symbol that caused it, not to ban it from peoples minds. That is simply lawmakers putting a patch on a gaping wound.

Just my 2 cents.

-S

Well said. :up:

X2 :up:

[Konovalov]

Its purely history. :lol: Like this renewed thread. ;)

Do not stamp out history. Nothing annoys me more than people stamping out history through banning something. The best way to remember the atrocities is to see the symbol that caused it, not to ban it from peoples minds. That is simply lawmakers putting a patch on a gaping wound.

Just my 2 cents.

-S

But yes, I fully agree with your 2 cents worth of comments. :yep:

[antikristuseke]

As SUBMAN1 said, its a historic symbol which should not be cencored. If we went on ahead cencoring everything that some group of people found offencive it would'nt stop untill everything was a faceless copy of everything else.

[Stealth Hunter]

Not unless it has nipples on it.

Now you're thinking on my same vibe...:roll: :rotfl:

[Blacklight]

I don't find the swastika offensive. It's a symbol that's been used widely in history in both left and right facing versions. What I find offensive is racist idiots who use it as a symbol for their dumb-ass racist and anti-semetic ideals.:stare:

[IronOutlaw]

Since there is a Kriegsmarine Ensign hanging in the Flag Hall at the Marine Ehrenmal in Laboe near Kiel, what's the problem? In Tom Cruises' new movie did they just have white blobs on red banners in Berlin? No.

If it had a Swastika on it then that's how it should be depicted. As others have pointed out, there is too much political correctness trying to rewrite history so as not to offend anyone, except the Germans of course.

My view as a veteran myself? I was personally, offended when the Ballard crew who planned putting a memorial plaque on the Bismarck's deck had it knocked back because the ship had swatikas on her deck, so they layed a wreath on the surface above her. I will not offend this site by saying what I really thought of that!

[Skybird]

Since there is a Kriegsmarine Ensign hanging in the Flag Hall at the Marine Ehrenmal in Laboe near Kiel, what's the problem? In Tom Cruises' new movie did they just have white blobs on red banners in Berlin? No.

If it had a Swastika on it then that's how it should be depicted. As others have pointed out, there is too much political correctness trying to rewrite history so as not to offend anyone, except the Germans of course.

It is not a PC issue, since the laws in Germany forbidding swastikas exist since decades, not just since ten years. They make a difference between historic education - and propagada, entertainment, profanisation.

However I partially agree that the split between allowing it in movies but not in games is somewhat arbitrary, to some degree. On the other hand there are too many examples that justify to argue that a movie CAN be educating and not just entertaining, while a computer action game or sim never is - but to some degree makes fun of war, and is a profanisation only. So, without going into the legal details, I can live with the way Germany handles it all very well, and would not like to see it being changed. realism for me is more concerning functionality, and not pf graphical depiction, and having the Bismarck in SH3 default without a swastika in no way is a question of realism to me. And education is not just staring at pictures, or theatre play acting when recreating an ancient battle, but gaining intellectual knowledge on the how and why of a war. So, SH3 in no way gives you any historical education at all. You just play sub - that's all-,but you learn nothing on the real important things of WWII.

[Deputy]

I haven't played the Bismarck scenario yet. Is there a patch to put the correct flag on it? I'll glady do so. Political Correctness be damned!!! :down:

[CCIP]

I haven't played the Bismarck scenario yet. Is there a patch to put the correct flag on it? I'll glady do so. Political Correctness be damned!!! :down:

If you have the North American version of the game, the swastika is where it belongs, don't worry :p

[Jimbuna]

I don't find the swastika offensive. It's a symbol that's been used widely in history in both left and right facing versions. What I find offensive is racist idiots who use it as a symbol for their dumb-ass racist and anti-semetic ideals.:stare:

Agreed.....it's been used for centuries in a religious context. Hitler and his nazi henchmen didn't invent it :nope:

[Deputy]

I haven't played the Bismarck scenario yet. Is there a patch to put the correct flag on it? I'll glady do so. Political Correctness be damned!!! :down:

If you have the North American version of the game, the swastika is where it belongs, don't worry :p

Thank you!!! :up:

[Skybird]

I don't find the swastika offensive. It's a symbol that's been used widely in history in both left and right facing versions. What I find offensive is racist idiots who use it as a symbol for their dumb-ass racist and anti-semetic ideals.:stare:

Agreed.....it's been used for centuries in a religious context. Hitler and his nazi henchmen didn't invent it :nope:
Yes indeed, nevertheless the damage is done and now the symbol HAS a shadow attached to it. A symbol's meaning is attached to it by man, it does not fall down from heaven "as is". Show a Jew a swastika and tell him he is looking at a symbol of luck. :dead:

[lambda*sqrt(u*x)]

After reading and enjoying this thread as an example of a working and inoffensive discussion, I deliberately decided to give my two cents on the topic.

There are ones who find it offensive to have the historically correct flags shown in the game. And they have reason to: National Socialists did not only kill millions of people in a war they started; they also killed millions of innocent people in concentration camps, without ever giving them a chance to defend themselves against the stupid accusations the SS and Gestapo uttered. When you remember these times, and how the era of National Socialism affected the decades after the war (Not all Nazis ended up at the Nuremberg Trials, some even survived in high-ranking political positions) and even the modern battle of Law & Order against Laissez-Faire, you can only admit that these symbols are connected to strong feelings, mostly for survivors or family members of victims of Nazi-Era atrocities.

There are ones who find it inappropriate to show symbols that can be offensive to the above mentioned group of people. And they have reason to: Would you find it appropriate (caution: extreme example!) to show a Swastika on your shirt to a concentration camp survivor?

There are also people who claim they want to have the Swastika shown because they insist on realism, but in fact want to covertly express their close standing to National Socialist thinking to themselves and/or other people the like.

There are also people who want to have the Swastika shown because they insist on expressing their close standing to National Socialist thinking to themselves and/or other people the like.

There are also ones who want full realism in a WWII German submarine simulation, and therefore may choose to have the Swastika shown, regardless of any offenses that might be taken out of it. I need to agree with them, because I find it OK, but I'm not among the victims of this era of atrocities.

And... there are a bunch of people out there who want the Swastika shown even if their real life state of mind is rather that of a left-wing pacifist, just because they have a perverted affection for symbols of evil (speaking of the Nazi-era only Swastika). These few people you will only find flying the German planes in Sturmovik or Red Baron or the like, or not buying SH IV because U.S. interventions and intentions in WWII were not evil enough... You might even find such a person wearing the Iron Cross around the neck in connection with some punk T-Shirt showing naked nuns... or listening to "Torpedo Los!"... I'm one of those sick minds... :roll:

[clayp]

No probs with swastika. Game is a game and past is past. Showing a kriegsmarine flag in one´s sig isnt offensive, Doenitz didnt get to pick the flag design. :lol:

Just to clear things, the nazi swastika is standing on it´s tip, the other ones arent nazi swastikas.

Dang, why should swastika offence anyone?! It´s wasnt created by the nazis! It´s one of the oldest symbols in the world, it has four 'L' letters for Luck, Life, Light and Love. :up:

If you were one of the 6 million or a relitive of one it would be offensive to you!!!!

[Deputy]

I find it interesting that there is always a big hue and cry about how offensive the swastika is. But never any mention about the hammer and sickle. People seem to have read only CERTAIN parts of world history. The fact is the Soviet Union, our wondeful ally, and "Papa Joe" Stalin, made Herr Hitler look like a boy scout when it comes to number of people massacred, killed, tortured, and destroyed. But everyone always seems to zero in on the swastika as the most evil symbol in history. Amazing what the right amount of propaganda in the right locations can do to sway world opinion. :roll:

[JSLTIGER]

It's all about context. Being Jewish, I don't mind seeing the swastika in historical footage, nor do I mind it in things such as movies set in the time period (a la Indiana Jones) or video games (i.e. SH3, Medal of Honor, etc.).

I think, however, that it is important that we remember all of the harm with which that symbol is associated. If you're trying to come up with a symbol for a group you're involved with, I'd be offended if you picked a swastika. When I see one I don't think about a symbol for luck, I think about a symbol used by the Nazis. Let's face it, regardless of what it originally stood for, it has now become inexorably linked with Nazi Germany and the crimes of the Hitler regime.

I find it interesting that there is always a big hue and cry about how offensive the swastika is. But never any mention about the hammer and sickle. People seem to have read only CERTAIN parts of world history. The fact is the Soviet Union, our wondeful ally, and "Papa Joe" Stalin, made Herr Hitler look like a boy scout when it comes to number of people massacred, killed, tortured, and destroyed. But everyone always seems to zero in on the swastika as the most evil symbol in history. Amazing what the right amount of propaganda in the right locations can do to sway world opinion. :roll:

Keep in mind please, that for all of its evils, communism was not oriented towards the destruction of a specific group of people. Did millions of Russians die at the hands of Stalin? Yes. Did they deserve to die? No. Did the Soviets conduct mass genocide? No. The reason for the zeroing in of the swastika is because the Nazis did not kill indiscriminately, they targeted specific ethnic groups and attempted to exterminate them.

[antikristuseke]

I find it interesting that there is always a big hue and cry about how offensive the swastika is. But never any mention about the hammer and sickle. People seem to have read only CERTAIN parts of world history. The fact is the Soviet Union, our wondeful ally, and "Papa Joe" Stalin, made Herr Hitler look like a boy scout when it comes to number of people massacred, killed, tortured, and destroyed. But everyone always seems to zero in on the swastika as the most evil symbol in history. Amazing what the right amount of propaganda in the right locations can do to sway world opinion. :roll:

Have to agree with you here, but the only reason i didnt bring it up was because even though that symbol is somewhat offensive to me and my family have felt that opression im still against cencoring it. Its part of a free society having to put up with things you might not want to.

[TarJak]

Is anyone offended by this flag?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Flag_of_Democratic_Kampuchea.svg/324px-Flag_of_Democratic_Kampuchea.svg.png

[antikristuseke]

Dont relly know ennough about Democratic Kampuchea or their flag to mean anything to me.

[Stealth Hunter]

http://www.earlyaviator.com/archive/a/images/Voss_Alb_hertz.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/rutiliusde/Alb-D3-Voss_02.jpg

[mrbeast]

I find it interesting that there is always a big hue and cry about how offensive the swastika is. But never any mention about the hammer and sickle. People seem to have read only CERTAIN parts of world history. The fact is the Soviet Union, our wondeful ally, and "Papa Joe" Stalin, made Herr Hitler look like a boy scout when it comes to number of people massacred, killed, tortured, and destroyed. But everyone always seems to zero in on the swastika as the most evil symbol in history. Amazing what the right amount of propaganda in the right locations can do to sway world opinion. :roll:

You could make similar arguments that the Stars and Stripes or the Union flag of Great Britain are offensive because at times they have represented enslavement, empire, the massacre of people and the destruction of cultures.

The difference is that nazism, has racial superiority, anti-semitism, elitism and the extermination and domination of others written into the philiosophical foundations of the movement.

There is no such thing written in the constitution of the US or in the British constitution or in the Marxist foundations of communism.

Therefore the swastika is singled out as an offensive swmbol above all others, and rightly so.

My own opion on the swastika is that it can only be used non-offensively under two conditions

i. That it is used in a historical setting, ie its in historical images or in recreations of history.

ii. It is being used by religeous groups whose use of the symbol predates that of the nazis for example Hindus.

[Deputy]

Again...some folks are engaged in the rewriting of history. The Nazis targeted a LOT MORE than just Jews in their extermination. Poles (Jewish and not Jewish), Catholic priests, and a whole range of other non-Jews were marched into the concentration camps and gas chambers. But all we ever hear about is "the 6 million Jews". And accoding to some on here "it's quality and not quantity that matters". Oh really? So the value of human life is based solely on what religion you happen to be a member of??? Sorry...I don't buy that. Stalin killed a huge number of his own people, far more than Hitler did. Don't think there was racial superiority in the US Constitution? Newsflash...when they printed "all men are created equal" they were NOT talking about Negro slaves.
The simple fact is there are a LOT of flags and emblems that people find "offensive" nowadays. There is still a big controversy about the srars and bars in the South. If we abided by what every special interest group complained about, there wouldn't be any history books at all.

Dep

[JSLTIGER]

Again...some folks are engaged in the rewriting of history. The Nazis targeted a LOT MORE than just Jews in their extermination. Poles (Jewish and not Jewish), Catholic priests, and a whole range of other non-Jews were marched into the concentration camps and gas chambers. But all we ever hear about is "the 6 million Jews". And accoding to some on here "it's quality and not quantity that matters". Oh really? So the value of human life is based solely on what religion you happen to be a member of??? Sorry...I don't buy that.
If you had bothered to read my original post, then you'd know that I did NOT exclude the other groups that Hitler targeted (i.e. homosexuals, gypsies, etc.), I merely only explictly named Jews as a group. Note the words from the original post (emphasis added):

the Nazis did not kill indiscriminately, they targeted specific ethnic groups and attempted to exterminate them.
EDIT: Note furthermore that the controversy surrounding the Confederate Battle Flag (which is NOT the "Stars and Bars") has to do with the flying of it today by state governments, not depicting it in the context of history books.

These are being posted here for ARGUMENT'S SAKE ONLY and DO NOT represent my own opinion on the issue.
The Stars and Bars:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/CSA_FLAG_4.3.1861-21.5.1861.svg/200px-CSA_FLAG_4.3.1861-21.5.1861.svg.png
The Confederate Battle Flag:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Battle_flag_of_the_US_Confederacy.svg/200px-Battle_flag_of_the_US_Confederacy.svg.png
The modern "Confederate flag," which is a portmanteau of the Battle Flag colors with the Second Naval Jack's dimensions:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Confederate_Navy_Jack.svg/250px-Confederate_Navy_Jack.svg.png

[Deputy]

I'd offfer you more hairs to split, but I can't spare them. :roll:
BTW...if you want to engage in hair-splitting, "Gypsy" is not even the correct name for that ethnic group. It's Romani or Romany.
Nazis targets ANY group or individual they believed to be a danger to their ideas. The Soviets did the same thing. Only on a MUCH larger scale.
I think most Amercans KNOW which Confederate flag is causing the controversy. We don't need a history course in hair splitting.

[Tchocky]

I'd offfer you more hairs to split, but I can't spare them. :roll:
BTW...if you want to engage in hair-splitting, "Gypsy" is not even the correct name for that ethnic group. It's Romani or Romany.
Nazis targets ANY group or individual they believed to be a danger to their ideas. The Soviets did the same thing. Only on a MUCH larger scale.
I think most Amercans KNOW which Confederate flag is causing the controversy. We don't need a history course in hair splitting.
Not everyone here is an American, and I don't think he's splitting hairs.

[Ducimus]

While im not personnaly offended by the swaztica in and of itself, i think the stigma that has been laid upon it, is unavoidable.

The swaztika is a symbol. A symbol it stands for something, and is meant to provoke a thought or idea to the viewer. As such its not what it used to stand for that is important, but what it stands for today. This is how people will react to it - by current thoughts that the symbol evokes. The society in which you live, will always dictate the meaning behind any given symbol.

Today in most societies, the swaztka represents nazism, and at least in the US, it also represents white supremacy groups. So this is how peoples will initialy think of it regardless of what context you put it in. I have to admit, everytime i see it, my brow furrows just a little bit. Everything that it stands for today is an abomination.

[JSLTIGER]

I'd offfer you more hairs to split, but I can't spare them. :roll:
BTW...if you want to engage in hair-splitting, "Gypsy" is not even the correct name for that ethnic group. It's Romani or Romany.
Nazis targets ANY group or individual they believed to be a danger to their ideas. The Soviets did the same thing. Only on a MUCH larger scale.
I think most Amercans KNOW which Confederate flag is causing the controversy. We don't need a history course in hair splitting.
You stated that I was "engaged in the re-writing of history" by ignoring other groups that were persecuted by the Nazis. I simply defended myself against a charge that was untrue, as I had addressed them. I'd hardly call that "hair-splitting" and would, quite frankly, appreciate an apology for the original accusation. It is, after all, not my fault that you did not correctly interperet what I had written.

Furthermore, your statement that the "Stars and Bars" was causing controversy in the South was incorrect, and I demonstrated that. If you are an American, you obviously didn't know which flag was causing the controversy (as evidenced by your assertion that it was the "Stars and Bars"), thus destroying your own statement.

From my end, I do appreciate the information on the Romani. I was unaware that the term "Gypsy" was not the proper name for that particular group, and if I have offended anyone, then I offer my deepest humble apologies and state that my own ignorance is to blame.

[mrbeast]

I'd offfer you more hairs to split, but I can't spare them. :roll:
BTW...if you want to engage in hair-splitting, "Gypsy" is not even the correct name for that ethnic group. It's Romani or Romany.
Nazis targets ANY group or individual they believed to be a danger to their ideas. The Soviets did the same thing. Only on a MUCH larger scale.
I think most Amercans KNOW which Confederate flag is causing the controversy. We don't need a history course in hair splitting.

The nazis didn't attack groups that they thought were a danger to their ideas it was more that they sought to exterminate and enslave those that they decided were 'untermenchen' literally 'under humans'....subhuman.

To Stalin, killing and imprisonment were means to an end; the creation of a perfect socialist society. To the nazis the killing was an end; the eradication of what they deemed subhumans.

[Letum]

Ha! you think Stailin was intrested in a "perfect society"?!

He was intrested only in power and his own gain. Far from the no goverment, no state
communist ideal that he talked of.

btw...bad idea to confuse socialist, communist and Stalinist.

[TarJak]

Dont relly know ennough about Democratic Kampuchea or their flag to mean anything to me.Pol Pot...Killing Fields...ring any bells??? Anyone????

My point being context. Unless you know what the symbol stands for it's difficult to get excited or upset about it. The symbols used by various despots in the past will always have different reactions by different people depending on their understanding and interpretation of the symbol.

[antikristuseke]

Dont relly know ennough about Democratic Kampuchea or their flag to mean anything to me.Pol Pot...Killing Fields...ring any bells??? Anyone????

My point being context. Unless you know what the symbol stands for it's difficult to get excited or upset about it. The symbols used by various despots in the past will always have different reactions by different people depending on their understanding and interpretation of the symbol.

I know Pol Pot and his actions, but for some reason didnt associate that with him, i put it down to a brain fart.:damn:

[elanaiba]

Is the Japanese flag considered offensive? Will this also be detuned in SHIV for the South east asian market?

People around here still have long memories about atrocities committed under that flag.

Well, it is kind of a fact that you can't put games out in China with the player acting as a soldier of the Axis or using their units.

[elanaiba]

Originally Posted by enaceo
No prob with it either.It's just a symbol what harm can it do?
As long as it's not used by weird neo-nazis to relate to Hitler,just use it !

On a side note,why is the swastika prohitibited,but using communist signs/symbols not?
Just because they won the war?
Stalin was a "good" friend of Hitler in the beggining and helped him somewhat.And also,I heard this from my grand-mother and father (I mean no disrespect to anyone who is russian or has had russian relatives in the war ,I don't want to insult your family and I respect them for the fact that they went to war dressed in nothing but some thick clothes with a cartrige in their hands,just waiting for a gun to show up or to get killed,just because some politicians had a quarrel),they said that when the germans came here in Romania,the were generaly good to the rural population (they gave them chocolate , food,drinks (not to mention after they left Romania they left a lot of good stuff behind them ,like fridges,bikes,weapons ,cars,fuel,money ,and a lot of other cool things:D ),but the russians,they were in majority ...behaving badly to not say something more offensive.They destroyed the houses,took the people's food and drinks,got drunk like hell and other general bad things ...)


What do you want of the Russian after all this atrocities,violations and destructions make in Ukranie and Crimea by the invading Rumanian troops of the south German groups or armies in 1941-1942? .Candys?Like many citizens of your country you have a version very deformed of the historic reality.Antonescu was a allied of Hitler and the Rumanian Army together with the Hungarian and Bulgarian were part of the invading forces in the attack and invasion of Soviet Union the 22-06-41.Rumania was the initiall agressor and not the Soviet Union.And the conduct of the Rumanian troops was all minues friendly ,terrible moments for the Ukranian people and specially womens ,thousands were violated or forced to go in the prostibules of the Army.Also not necessary to speak about the treatment reserved for the Jews.
After the documents of the time by the Ukranians and Russians, the more civilized and "human" invaders in this south sector were the Italians,many forced to go to the war.

Rumanian can self consider very lucky to conserve his old borders before 1940 ,a gift of Stalin, he was absolutly not obliged to return the Transylvannia to Rumania from the Hungarian territory and also same for the territories of Bulgarie and Besarabia.
This partition of the country in 1940 was accepted by the King Carol II, but not for the people, and was organized under the recomendations and direction of Hitler.
Besarabia and Bucovina for the Russian, Transylvannia for Hungary,and a border coastal southeast region to Bulgaria.Of course , after that Carol II was forced to scape and go to exile with madame Lupescu and a great fortune, to evade the fury of the Rumanian citizens.His "virtual" sucessor was his son Michael,but the power was in the hands of the old 1th minister Antonescu, future dictator and the Fascist Iron Guard.

Like with Finland , Stalin was really very"gentle" with his defeated enemy and agressor(that was a complet surprise for the USA and the British); and Roumania was lucky to conserve his territorial integrity and again also the extra territory loss in 1940, and not the nation converted in a sea of "vendetta" and vengeance in 1944.

Last time I checked we didn't get either Besarabia (or Basarabia), Northern Bucovina, or the southern Bulgarian territories back.

And you know what? Part of my family comes from Northern Bucovina. They had to abandon everything they had, to run away during the night. Because the next day the russians would send them to Siberia. Yes, gentle russians.

It was so cool and funny under Soviet Russia domination that we're barely humans after that.

[TarJak]

I know Pol Pot and his actions, but for some reason didnt associate that with him, i put it down to a brain fart.:damn: but that was my point. Apart from those that knew the DK flag or who lived under Pol Pot's regime or had relatives or friends that died during that period, the symbol of that regime holds very little power or recognition.

The nazi swastika on the other hand has had 50 odd years of blanket media coverage as a symbol of evil. The context of the symbol is all important to how people are likely to react to it. If you have contact or experience of the symbol and relate it to the bad experience you make a mental link between the two.

If that doesn't happen as is the case for most westerners in releation to the flag I posted, then no bad associations are made and the likelyhood of someone being offended is very much decreased.

[Deputy]

Of course, all this is much ado about nothing. If you don't like the swasticka flag flying where it DID fly on the Bismarck, either don't buy/play the game (kinda silly to buy a game about ww2 German Naval combat and not expect to see WW2 German flags flying on their ships), or hack the game and fly a different flag on the Bismarck. Heck, fly the Star of David if that's what you want.

BTW....mention "Stars and Bars" to ANYONE in the USA and they will immediately think of the Confederate Naval flag. Not that early version that almost NOBODY but history freaks know exists. BTW....the flag the PEOPLE of the Confederacy adopted wasn't any of the flags shown in this thread. Here it is...

http://www.anyflag.com/history/bonnie.gif

It's called the Bonnie Blue Flag. And no, no apologies will be coming from me if you can't post clearly what you mean. The hair splitting applied to the comment "the Nazis targeted "specific ethnic groups". They did MUCH more than target specific ETHNIC groups. They targeted religions and people's political beliefs. But WTF difference does that make???? The fact remains the Soviet Union killed MUCH MORE people than the Nazis ever did....WHATEVER THE REASON.

[JSLTIGER]

Of course, all this is much ado about nothing. If you don't like the swasticka flag flying where it DID fly on the Bismarck, either don't buy/play the game (kinda silly to buy a game about ww2 German Naval combat and not expect to see WW2 German flags flying on their ships), or hack the game and fly a different flag on the Bismarck. Heck, fly the Star of David if that's what you want.

BTW....mention "Stars and Bars" to ANYONE in the USA and they will immediately think of the Confederate Naval flag. Not that early version that almost NOBODY but history freaks know exists. BTW....the flag the PEOPLE of the Confederacy adopted wasn't any of the flags shown in this thread. Here it is...

http://www.anyflag.com/history/bonnie.gif

It's called the Bonnie Blue Flag. And no, no apologies will be coming from me if you can't post clearly what you mean. The hair splitting applied to the comment "the Nazis targeted "specific ethnic groups". They did MUCH more than target specific ETHNIC groups. They targeted religions and people's political beliefs. But WTF difference does that make???? The fact remains the Soviet Union killed MUCH MORE people than the Nazis ever did....WHATEVER THE REASON.
Once again, if you had bothered to read my original post, you'd have noted the first paragraph, where I discussed the issue at hand. My point in that paragraph was that its appearance doesn't bother me at all in historical context.

Moreover, if you want to complain about people not posting clearly, here's something for you. By your own assertion if you "mention 'Stars and Bars' to ANYONE in the USA" they "will immediately think of the Confederate Naval Flag." This is not true. I live in the USA. You mentioned the "Stars and Bars." I didn't think of the Confederate Naval flag immediately, which is why I pointed out the error in the first place. As I live here as well, the term "anyone" includes me. Yet another error. By the way, I knew about the Bonnie Blue Flag, but that had nothing to do with what we were discussing, as per your argument about the "Stars and Bars."

You accuse me of hair splitting...after you level a charge that I am actively re-writing history, claiming that I wrote that the Jews were the only ones that the Nazis sought to eliminate. I NEVER DID THAT! The re-posting of my words was simply to show you that you misunderstood what I wrote. I never denied that there were other groups targeted besides the Jews and was attempting to show you that fact from the original words that I posted. It is not my fault that you don't read clearly. Moreover, I never denied that the Soviets killed fewer people than the Nazis, because they did. I did, however, make the argument that whereas the killings by the Nazis were focused targeted killings (a statement which even you yourself agree with), the killings by the Soviets were farily random and indiscriminate. All of which is true.

[Deputy]

Whew!!!! I won't even try and decipher that mess. When we are talking about killings of people in large numbers, as took place in both Germany and the Soviet Union, WTF DIFFERENCE does it make if they targeted specific people or not???? Are you trying to say that the people killed in Germany were somehow BETTR than the people killed in the SU???? People are people. The SU killed more people under Stalin that Hitler ever came close to killing. That's an indisputable fact.

[Happy Times]

Im sure to the victims of Nazis or Soviets their symbols are just as offensive.
And the Soviets did target ethnicities also.
Millions died in Kolyma, Bykivnia, Kuropaty, Vorkuta etc.. No sentencies to this date for anyone.:doh:
Funny how it was the Soviets only ones from the Allies that used Nazi concentration camps.
BTW, the Buchenwald concentration camp 1937-45 had over 50.000 victims in Nazi control, and 1945-50 over 20,000 victims in Soviet control.
From number of prisoners, Nazi death rate 24% , Soviet death rate 70-90%.:dead:

[Deputy]

Im sure to the victims of Nazis or Soviets their symbols are just as offensive.
And the Soviets did target ethnicities also.
Millions died in Kolyma, Bykivnia, Kuropaty, Vorkuta etc.. No sentencies to this date for anyone.:doh:
Funny how it was the Soviets only ones from the Allies that used Nazi concentration camps.
BTW, the Buchenwald concentration camp 1937-45 had over 50.000 victims in Nazi control, and 1945-50 over 20,000 victims in Soviet control.
From number of prisoners, Nazi death rate 24% , Soviet death rate 70-90%.:dead:

Well said Happy!! :up:

[joea]

The SU killed more people under Stalin that Hitler ever came close to killing. That's an indisputable fact.

Is it? Do you have any sources for that claim?

[Deputy]

The SU killed more people under Stalin that Hitler ever came close to killing. That's an indisputable fact.

Is it? Do you have any sources for that claim?

Sure :D

Regardless, it appears that a minimum of around 10 million surplus deaths (4 million by repression and 6 million from famine) are attributable to the regime, with a number of recent books suggesting a likely total of around 20 million. Adding 6–8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Pioneering researcher Robert Conquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Conquest), meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million. Others, however, continue to maintain that their earlier much higher estimates are correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin
Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20, 000, 000

There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:

Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:

1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
1939-45: 18,157,000
1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+
Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)

Cited by Wallechinsky:
Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.

MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.And from the Lower Numbers school:

Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
Cited in Nove:
Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

Joseph Stalin is one of those people. Stalin stands alone as the most inhumane man in the history of mankind. Stalin is also one of only two men - Mao Tse-tung is the other - whose accomplishments in the destruction of innocent human beings exceed those of Adolf Hitler. In Death by Government, Stalin is credited with presiding over the Soviet government’s slaughter of nearly 43,000,000 innocent able-bodied Russian children, women and men, as well as people who were crippled, aged and infirm. That is more than double the estimated 21,000,000 innocent people killed under the Nazi regime led by Adolf Hitler. It is also more than the 38,000,000 innocent people murdered by the Chinese government under Mao Tse-tung’s Communist leadership.

None of the 43 million innocent Russians murdered by the Soviet government under Stalin’s rule was a war combatant, and their deaths are solely attributable to the consequences of his domestic policies. Those tens of millions of people were murdered in many grotesque and almost unbelievably inhumane ways. Large numbers of people, e.g., died of starvation and/or dehydration after being herded into fenced pens where they were deprived of food and water. The starving people ate anything, including “horse manure ... because it often contained whole grains of wheat,” and “cannabilism was widely practiced.”
http://forejustice.org/wc/vyshinsky/stalin's_prosecutor.html

I can post a LOT more, but I am using up too much bandwidth. :D I apologize to those who think "Papa Joe" was some kind of wonderful, humanitarian human being. Reality sometimes sucks.

Dep

[JSLTIGER]

Even I didn't bother arguing that one...

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I just thought I'd jump in here and mention Wikipedia shouldnt really be relied upon for factual material so much anymore.

Since it can be edited by Joe Public at any time, we have to take what it says with a grain of salt sometimes.

[Deputy]

I just thought I'd jump in here and mention Wikipedia shouldnt really be relied upon for factual material so much anymore.

Since it can be edited by Joe Public at any time, we have to take what it says with a grain of salt sometimes.

I agree 100%. That's why I used TWO other sources to supplement it. ;)
I could have used MANY more, but most likely it would have been overkill (pardon the pun) to do so.

Dep

[mcf1]

I have no problem with the swastika, it is an ancient symbol used by many cultures. And it was adopted and NOT invented by Hitler.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I just thought I'd jump in here and mention Wikipedia shouldnt really be relied upon for factual material so much anymore.

Since it can be edited by Joe Public at any time, we have to take what it says with a grain of salt sometimes.
I agree 100%. That's why I used TWO other sources to supplement it. ;)
I could have used MANY more, but most likely it would have been overkill (pardon the pun) to do so.

Dep


Yeah yeah smartypants ;):rotfl:

[Deputy]

I just thought I'd jump in here and mention Wikipedia shouldnt really be relied upon for factual material so much anymore.

Since it can be edited by Joe Public at any time, we have to take what it says with a grain of salt sometimes.
I agree 100%. That's why I used TWO other sources to supplement it. ;)
I could have used MANY more, but most likely it would have been overkill (pardon the pun) to do so.

Dep


Yeah yeah smartypants ;):rotfl:

Hehehe...it was a "pre-emptive strike" :rock: :rotfl:

[seafarer]

This year, the town of Swastika, Ontario, will celebrate it's centennial (it's in Northern Ontario, near Kirkland Lake - used to drive past it annual as a kid on the way to our cottage on Lake Sesekinika). They've never had a problem with the name or symbol :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/44/Image-Swasont.jpg/200px-Image-Swasont.jpg

[BH]

Too take this question further.. Is it offensive to compare anyone to the nazis? Too many people in the U.S. use it for political purposes. For example for bush and hitler photos you will find all over the internet and republican=Nazis ..ect. Whether you agree with their politcal stands or actions, comparing them to the nazis really waters down the actions of the nazis and really shows a lack of understanding of history and what the nazis actually did to their victims. I knew and have spoken to people who lived under nazi rule and the spoiled, ignorant people of America do not know how good they have it. If people here do not like the goverment, vote for someone else. Don't devalue the real suffering and carnage of nazi germany and their victims by comparing them to present goverments that still have a long way to go before they are consider one of the worst in history.

[Skybird]

Too take this question further.. Is it offensive to compare anyone to the nazis? Too many people in the U.S. use it for political purposes. For example for bush and hitler photos you will find all over the internet and republican=Nazis ..ect. Whether you agree with their politcal stands or actions, comparing them to the nazis really waters down the actions of the nazis and really shows a lack of understanding of history and what the nazis actually did to their victims. I knew and have spoken to people who lived under nazi rule and the spoiled, ignorant people of America do not know how good they have it. If people here do not like the goverment, vote for someone else. Don't devalue the real suffering and carnage of nazi germany and their victims by comparing them to present goverments that still have a long way to go before they are consider one of the worst in history.
On the other hand, experience in this forum shows that some of those in defense of these governments and their policies are not shy to recommend to especially critical German people to shut up, for they are livng in former Nazi germany, and thus should just look down to the ground and should not dare to criticise. I have stopped counting how often i was told to do like this, or was told in another way that my opinion is worthless since I am German and thus should better contemplate about the Nazi past and the guilt I have - allegedly - to accept from that.

Not that such stupid comments ever had the desired effect on me :cool: , nor do I accept any guilt of mine, or a collective guilt of Germans being born after the war.

[STEED]

Another thread back from the grave. :eek:

Time for a zombie thread shoot out, lock and load people. :arrgh!:

[Deputy]

Another thread back from the grave. :eek:

Time for a zombie thread shoot out, lock and load people. :arrgh!:

No kidding! I'd forgotten all about this silliness!!! :doh:

[Jimbuna]

http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img110/1235/zombiexv8.gif http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img110/1235/zombiexv8.gif http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img110/1235/zombiexv8.gif

http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/bubblegum2.gif

[mrbeast]

Another thread back from the grave. :eek:

Time for a zombie thread shoot out, lock and load people. :arrgh!:

Its worse than that............its a zombie thread with swastikas all over it! :o :dead:

[August]

Another thread back from the grave. :eek:

Time for a zombie thread shoot out, lock and load people. :arrgh!:
Its worse than that............its a zombie thread with swastikas all over it! :o :dead:

OMG zombie nazis? :o

[STEED]

Crud. :damn:

We're going to need bigger guns. :yep:

[Deputy]

Another thread back from the grave. :eek:

Time for a zombie thread shoot out, lock and load people. :arrgh!:
Its worse than that............its a zombie thread with swastikas all over it! :o :dead:

OMG zombie nazis? :o

Hey!!!! They made a movie about zombie Nazis!!!!

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WZR20PNGL._AA240_.jpg

The most terrifying zombie massacre ever to come to the screen! In a small lakeside town in the French countryside, young women are disappearing without a trace. The superstitious locals blame "The Lake of Ghosts," but the town's mayor (Howard Vernon) seems reluctant, or powerless, to take any action. When another girl is found with her throat ripped out, a Paris reporter begins to uncover the deadly secrets of the lake and the dead, green-faced Nazis who are aroused to action!

[Fish]

Holocaust and swastica are to much connected for me, but hé I am born before WW II. For five years the swastica was the hated symbol of the nazi's in my country. More then 100:000 Dutch died as a result of the war.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

never liked the swastika.. never will...:-? never liked hitler because of his views on slavic people...

[Jimbuna]

Crud. :damn:

We're going to need bigger guns. :yep:

http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/img265/250/shootingsmilie2ik0.gif

[STEED]

Crud. :damn:

We're going to need bigger guns. :yep:

http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/img265/250/shootingsmilie2ik0.gif

That's the spirit jim, let's rock. :D

[Stealth Hunter]

never liked the swastika.. never will...:-? never liked hitler because of his views on slavic people...

That depends. As the original symbol of good fortune and luck, yes, I do like it. As Hitler's symbol, HELL NO. As Werner Voss' symbol, yes.

[Jimbuna]

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/411/weaponso0o07qhy9.gif (http://imageshack.us) http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3351/charactersvillage8mfbj9.gif http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6864/machinegunhy9.gif

[Tango589]

If its bigger zombie blasting guns you're after, this thread has the answer:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=130549

:rock:

or should we just get this guy?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=129476

[STEED]

Relax folks I got the M.O.A.B. and not to upset the greens it's not nuclear. :lol:

[Kapitan_Phillips]

If its bigger zombie blasting guns you're after, this thread has the answer:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=130549


Silly gun to take into a zombie invasion. Unnecessary firepower and noise. Precision is the key.

Give me a Kar 98 and ammunition over that thing when the time comes. :yep:

[August]

If its bigger zombie blasting guns you're after, this thread has the answer:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=130549

Silly gun to take into a zombie invasion. Unnecessary firepower and noise. Precision is the key.

Give me a Kar 98 and ammunition over that thing when the time comes. :yep:

Bolt action? :dead:

What you need for efficient zombie killing is an M1 Garand. "The rifle that won the war"
:D

[Kipparikalle]

OR


We just could use a tank instead?

http://omglol.kerrolisaa.com/1/9688.jpg


Back to topic:

I don't see anything wrong with swastikas. You can't deny the history, no matter how you try.
Finnish airforces got swastikas on their planes during the winterwar and continuation-war(execpt that the swastikas were straight)

The swastikas exicted on finnish airforces loooooong before the Hitler.

Majority of the people in the world accept the swastikas.


End of discustion.

[Schwartzkat3x]

It seems kind of "nazi" to ban a symbol from a game that like somebody said, was lifted amd modified from Hindu and American Indian cultures.

[JSLTIGER]

http://www.vslcatena.nl/Members/jarn/htrb.jpg

[Deputy]

Whip that horse to DEATH!!!! :lol:

[AdlerGrosmann]

The Swastika does not offend me in anyway..I don't know others are because it's just a flag! Like the Iraq and Cuban flag no one gets offended by that, why the Swastika?

[August]

The Swastika does not offend me in anyway..I don't know others are because it's just a flag! Like the Iraq and Cuban flag no one gets offended by that, why the Swastika?

Well aside from the fact that neither Iraq or Cuba ever started a hugely destructive world war, they also didn't murder 6 million innocent people in a ruthlessly efficient manner and document the entire thing on film so those horrors remain fresh in the worlds collective consciousness.

[Deputy]

The Swastika does not offend me in anyway..I don't know others are because it's just a flag! Like the Iraq and Cuban flag no one gets offended by that, why the Swastika?

Well aside from the fact that neither Iraq or Cuba ever started a hugely destructive world war, they also didn't murder 6 million innocent people in a ruthlessly efficient manner and document the entire thing on film so those horrors remain fresh in the worlds collective consciousness.

I can understand getting freaky over the death numbers, although as I've already stated and proved, the Commies FAR EXCEEDED the number of kills Germany did.
But we are talking about the flags themselves, and not what was done UNDER the flag. Do YOU get just as upset over the hammer and sickle and Red Star?

[August]

I can understand getting freaky over the death numbers, although as I've already stated and proved, the Commies FAR EXCEEDED the number of kills Germany did.
But we are talking about the flags themselves, and not what was done UNDER the flag. Do YOU get just as upset over the hammer and sickle and Red Star?

Well I do, but then again the Soviets were the enemy of my generation. I grew up with air raid drills in school and the world perpetually at 11 o'clock in the final countdown but I doubt much of that loathing will outlive my generation. I already see signs of it disappearing.

What makes the swastika so timeless as a symbol of evil, IMO, is the extensive documentation of the nazis crimes. "A picture is worth a thousand words" and there are literally thousands of pictures and motion film clips, most taken by the nazis themselves, of concentration camps and mass executions which detail the extreme horror and brutality of those who wore that symbol.

[Deputy]

I can understand getting freaky over the death numbers, although as I've already stated and proved, the Commies FAR EXCEEDED the number of kills Germany did.
But we are talking about the flags themselves, and not what was done UNDER the flag. Do YOU get just as upset over the hammer and sickle and Red Star?

Well I do, but then again the Soviets were the enemy of my generation. I grew up with air raid drills in school and the world perpetually at 11 o'clock in the final countdown but I doubt much of that loathing will outlive my generation. I already see signs of it disappearing.

What makes the swastika so timeless as a symbol of evil, IMO, is the extensive documentation of the nazis crimes. "A picture is worth a thousand words" and there are literally thousands of pictures and motion film clips, most taken by the nazis themselves, of concentration camps and mass executions which detail the extreme horror and brutality of those who wore that symbol.

But the symbol existed long before the Nazis adopted it. I sure don't hate those who used it before the advent of the Nazis. I don't consider the emblem itself as a symbol of evil. It's just another flag that was flown by an enemy country. BTW...you DON"T have to look at the pictures, and those pictures don't exist in the game. ;)

[August]

But the symbol existed long before the Nazis adopted it. I sure don't hate those who used it before the advent of the Nazis. I don't consider the emblem itself as a symbol of evil. It's just another flag that was flown by an enemy country. BTW...you DON"T have to look at the pictures, and those pictures don't exist in the game. ;)

"The game"? My bad. I thought we were talking about reality. In reality those pictures and films exist and very few people haven't seen at least some of them by the time they reach adulthood. Except in perhaps Finland or in some of the southwestern US native American tribes the horror of any one of those images will trump, by far, any other connotation of that symbol.

Personally I think we should at least allow the last of the victims of that war to die off before we start calling it "just another flag".

[Deputy]

Here is the original post. As you can see, it relates SPECIFICALLY to the game...

Since I created a Grey Wolves sig using it, and found out it's prohibited in Germany, I wanted to get feedback from you guys. I realize SH3 is just a game and the swastika has been used as a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism and occurs in other Asian, European, African and Native American cultures, there may be some who find it offensive (even though it used in the game). If so, I'll remove it from my sig. Thx
-------------------------------------------
You sure are fixated on those films. Have you ever BEEN in a war? I have. Those films are mild compared to what goes on in the promotion of one political idea over another. ALL wars are hell. And if we lose sight of that fact, then war becomes acceptable. Vets of the war in the Pacific hold a grudge against the Japanese far worse than any European vet does against the Germans. The stuff that happened in the Pacific theater is just as gruesome as what is on those movies in Europe. It's just not as "popular" to rail about and it doesn't get the publicity that the European theater gets.

[August]

You sure are fixated on those films. Have you ever BEEN in a war? I have. Those films are mild compared to what goes on in the promotion of one political idea over another. ALL wars are hell. And if we lose sight of that fact, then war becomes acceptable. Vets of the war in the Pacific hold a grudge against the Japanese far worse than any European vet does against the Germans. The stuff that happened in the Pacific theater is just as gruesome as what is on those movies in Europe. It's just not as "popular" to rail about and it doesn't get the publicity that the European theater gets.

Look, i'm just sharing my opinion of why the swastika has retained such an evil image in the public mind over the years. Whether it's on gaming forums or any other public venue is as immaterial as your rude strawman arguments.

You claim to have been in a war? Well good for you mister anonymous internet personality whose truthfullness i have no way of verifying. So how does that experience, assuming it's true, make you an expert in the power of photo and filmography?

[Deputy]

You sure are fixated on those films. Have you ever BEEN in a war? I have. Those films are mild compared to what goes on in the promotion of one political idea over another. ALL wars are hell. And if we lose sight of that fact, then war becomes acceptable. Vets of the war in the Pacific hold a grudge against the Japanese far worse than any European vet does against the Germans. The stuff that happened in the Pacific theater is just as gruesome as what is on those movies in Europe. It's just not as "popular" to rail about and it doesn't get the publicity that the European theater gets.

Look, i'm just sharing my opinion of why the swastika has retained such an evil image in the public mind over the years. Whether it's on gaming forums or any other public venue is as immaterial as your rude strawman arguments.

You claim to have been in a war? Well good for you mister anonymous internet personality whose truthfullness i have no way of verifying. So how does that experience, assuming it's true, make you an expert in the power of photo and filmography?

For YOU, my war experience is of course, unverifiable and meaningless. For me, it gives a different perspective on things. Since you seem to have tunnel vision and are locked into your hatred of a symbol that actullay means MORE than just the Nazi empire, I am done with talking to you. I suggest you stay away freom the soutwestern United States and remain in your cocoon in the East. Swastika symbols out here are as common as the US flag. Your mind would simply not be able to handle it. :rotfl:

[joea]

The Swastika does not offend me in anyway..I don't know others are because it's just a flag! Like the Iraq and Cuban flag no one gets offended by that, why the Swastika?
Well aside from the fact that neither Iraq or Cuba ever started a hugely destructive world war, they also didn't murder 6 million innocent people in a ruthlessly efficient manner and document the entire thing on film so those horrors remain fresh in the worlds collective consciousness.
I can understand getting freaky over the death numbers, although as I've already stated and proved, the Commies FAR EXCEEDED the number of kills Germany did.
But we are talking about the flags themselves, and not what was done UNDER the flag. Do YOU get just as upset over the hammer and sickle and Red Star?
The Nazis killed more than 6 million Jews, there were 5 million non-Jews killed during the Holocaust as well. Read up on the Ostplan for example directed against the Slavs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Another example, compare the number of Poles killed by the Nazis with those killed by the Soviets:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#endnote_Poland

Tadeusz Piotrowski Professor of Sociology at the University of New Hampshire has provided a reassessment of Poland’s losses in World War Two. Polish war dead include 5,150,000 victims of Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and the Holocaust, 350,000 deaths during the Soviet occupation in 1940-41 and about 100,000 Poles killed in 1943-44 during the massacres of Poles in Volhynia by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Losses by ethnic group were 3,100,000 Jews; 2,000,000 ethnic Poles; 500,000 Ukrainians and Belarusians.[47]


...

Previously it was believed that about 1.0 million Polish citizens died at the hands of the Soviets [76]; however recently Polish historians, based on research in the Soviet archives, estimate the number of deaths at 120,000 to 350,000 people deported in 1939-1941. [41] [47] [72]
.

Not that Soviet crimes should be ignored, nor US, UK or Burmese just trying to put it into perspective.

A last link I'll let you all read yourselves, another academic view of the famines in the USSR.

http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/soviet.htm

Read and learn.

About the Swastika, no problem with it..I love the ancient meaning and use before the Nazis and there modern brainless fans messed it up...it's all context. If a mad religious cult of cannibals used Hello Kitty as their symbol I think people would look at it differently too.

[Deputy]

joea: I already proved the Soviets FAR EXCEEDED any number totals for number of people killed. Look back in this thread. The Soviets made the Nazis look like amateurs in the area of executions.

[Dowly]

joea: I already proved the Soviets FAR EXCEEDED any number totals for number of people killed. Look back in this thread. The Soviets made the Nazis look like amateurs in the area of executions.

Yes, the estimates are everywhere from 15mil to 21mil. I think the highest estimate for Nazi regime, including gypsies, homosexuals, blacks, jews etc. is 11mil. And let's not forget the ~40mil killed by China.

[joea]

joea: I already proved the Soviets FAR EXCEEDED any number totals for number of people killed. Look back in this thread. The Soviets made the Nazis look like amateurs in the area of executions.

I read your post and links and ummmm, no you didn't I did and this is my answer so read MY links and posts. You proved nothing, all you did is say there were two schools on the USSR and Stalin, one saying the numbers are huge the other saying no they aren't. All you really did was take the quote splitting it down the middle and say "oh they are still huge." You have to have a reason for just splitting them down the middle. Anyway read my links then respond ok?

[joea]

Originally Posted by enaceo
No prob with it either.It's just a symbol what harm can it do?
As long as it's not used by weird neo-nazis to relate to Hitler,just use it !

On a side note,why is the swastika prohitibited,but using communist signs/symbols not?
Just because they won the war?
Stalin was a "good" friend of Hitler in the beggining and helped him somewhat.And also,I heard this from my grand-mother and father (I mean no disrespect to anyone who is russian or has had russian relatives in the war ,I don't want to insult your family and I respect them for the fact that they went to war dressed in nothing but some thick clothes with a cartrige in their hands,just waiting for a gun to show up or to get killed,just because some politicians had a quarrel),they said that when the germans came here in Romania,the were generaly good to the rural population (they gave them chocolate , food,drinks (not to mention after they left Romania they left a lot of good stuff behind them ,like fridges,bikes,weapons ,cars,fuel,money ,and a lot of other cool things:D ),but the russians,they were in majority ...behaving badly to not say something more offensive.They destroyed the houses,took the people's food and drinks,got drunk like hell and other general bad things ...)


What do you want of the Russian after all this atrocities,violations and destructions make in Ukranie and Crimea by the invading Rumanian troops of the south German groups or armies in 1941-1942? .Candys?Like many citizens of your country you have a version very deformed of the historic reality.Antonescu was a allied of Hitler and the Rumanian Army together with the Hungarian and Bulgarian were part of the invading forces in the attack and invasion of Soviet Union the 22-06-41.Rumania was the initiall agressor and not the Soviet Union.And the conduct of the Rumanian troops was all minues friendly ,terrible moments for the Ukranian people and specially womens ,thousands were violated or forced to go in the prostibules of the Army.Also not necessary to speak about the treatment reserved for the Jews.
After the documents of the time by the Ukranians and Russians, the more civilized and "human" invaders in this south sector were the Italians,many forced to go to the war.

Rumanian can self consider very lucky to conserve his old borders before 1940 ,a gift of Stalin, he was absolutly not obliged to return the Transylvannia to Rumania from the Hungarian territory and also same for the territories of Bulgarie and Besarabia.
This partition of the country in 1940 was accepted by the King Carol II, but not for the people, and was organized under the recomendations and direction of Hitler.
Besarabia and Bucovina for the Russian, Transylvannia for Hungary,and a border coastal southeast region to Bulgaria.Of course , after that Carol II was forced to scape and go to exile with madame Lupescu and a great fortune, to evade the fury of the Rumanian citizens.His "virtual" sucessor was his son Michael,but the power was in the hands of the old 1th minister Antonescu, future dictator and the Fascist Iron Guard.

Like with Finland , Stalin was really very"gentle" with his defeated enemy and agressor(that was a complet surprise for the USA and the British); and Roumania was lucky to conserve his territorial integrity and again also the extra territory loss in 1940, and not the nation converted in a sea of "vendetta" and vengeance in 1944.
Last time I checked we didn't get either Besarabia (or Basarabia), Northern Bucovina, or the southern Bulgarian territories back.

And you know what? Part of my family comes from Northern Bucovina. They had to abandon everything they had, to run away during the night. Because the next day the russians would send them to Siberia. Yes, gentle russians.

It was so cool and funny under Soviet Russia domination that we're barely humans after that.

Elabania I don't think you really read the whole post. I suppose it made sense to recover Bessarabia by going all the way to Stalingrad, and for the Romanian army to create their own concentration camps for Jews and doing some of the other stuff were done? The Finns didn't bomb Leningrad or go beyond what they lost to the Soviets?? Just curious as while I understand the bitterness of the loss how does it justify what Antonescu's regime decided to do? Not the first time I've heard this that's all.

As for the comment Germans were very kind to Romanians well duh. They were allies. :roll: I guess I gotta wonder why my Great-grandmother in Greece was not to fond of them. :roll: