[OT]Question for the bubbleheads: Sonar Duty

[LoBlo]

Off topic question for the real life bubbleheads out there if its not too secret to talk about. How do RL submariners divide up sonar duty?

This is what I'm guessing:
one man for broadband spherical array
one man for narrowband spherical array
one man for broadband TA
one man for narrowband TA
one man for identification
one man for active intercept (and torpedo warning)
one supervisor

Only problem with that is it would fill the sonar room with 7 guys at once. 5 if the TA isn't deployed.

Anyone with RL sub experience that can tell me if I'm even close? Thanks,

lb

[Henson]

It depends on the sonar system, whether the array is out, what kind of ops we're on, etc.

Generally, we have SAPBB, Class (DEMON is close, but an oversimplification), TAPBB, TANB, Aux operator, and Sup.

[LoBlo]

Hm... that's interesting. Thanks.

Seems like in any type of contact rich environments it would take more guys than that not be be overwhelmed by contacts. Like, for example, submerged off a busy port or waterway with 20+ contacts within listening range. Seems like it would be too many contacts, with not enough eyes and ears.

I was reading an old article ( http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/usw/issue_3/feedback.htm ) about the new CACC of the Virginia class and how things have been changed in order to keep better track of contact rich environments.

Just still doesn't seem like it would be enough... but heck, what do I know.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Let's put the Program Office's reply through a cynical filter that would parse away all that "battlespace" ****. More cynically, let's call it my "Mike Sparks" mode despite the sometimes less than brilliant reputation of that man:

Paragraph 1: The intro
Paragraph 2: Everything has changed! We've got bigger, cooler computers now! You are obsolete!
Paragraph 3: We'd increase automation so the noise in the control room is minimized, reversing our 30-year old anti-automation position!
Paragraph 4: We got new cool computer screens all over the place. You are behind the times, old man. Now the OOD can glimpse at waterfall displays that he has only a basic understanding and experience of (compared to the dedicated sonar staff), second guess the sonarmen and constantly disrupt the sonar supervisor's attention! I don't want to explain how wanting to talk to the sonar supe directly means putting the rest of the sonar crew into the control room which would never be as quiet or undisturbed as their comfortable little alcove no matter what we do. Trust us, we really thought this over...
Paragraph 5: Instead of using basic, effective, reliable noiseproofing measures, I create a problem by sticking the sonarmen somewhere noisy and use a fancy, expensive electronic gadget to solve the problem I created myself. I also ignore all the other distractions in the control room other than acoustic - if nothing else, the psychological pressure of a senior watch officer/captain directly watching all the time can hardly be good for long-term concentration.
Paragraph 6: We really did our homework on this.
Paragraph 7: The cool new computer displays really help!
Paragraph 8: Thanks for your time, but we aren't making any changes.

[Henson]

Paragraph 4: We got new cool computer screens all over the place. You are behind the times, old man. Now the OOD can glimpse at waterfall displays that he has only a basic understanding and experience of (compared to the dedicated sonar staff), second guess the sonarmen and constantly disrupt the sonar supervisor's attention! I don't want to explain how wanting to talk to the sonar supe directly means putting the rest of the sonar crew into the control room which would never be as quiet or undisturbed as their comfortable little alcove no matter what we do. Trust us, we really thought this over...

You just hit THE BIGGEST problem most of us enlisted guys have with Virginia...the big move from the dedicated sonar shack into control.

1. Sonar talks a lot. They HVE to talk alot to do their job, and a lot of their talking as the kind of talking you don't really want on the open mike into the CO's stateroom. Control is kept quiet, especiallly when we're traking someone or going to PD, two of Sonar's busiest times. You figure out the disconnect.

2. Keeping sonar separate from the FTs, OOD, and section tracking parties actually provided independent analysis of contact solutions. If you move sonar into control, you lose that independent analysis, which a lot of times can save a party from bad solutions or total cluelessness.

Moving sonar into control seems to me like it cuts down on the...'indoctrination' the brand new sonar tech gets. The time you spend as broadband operator is much like the time other guys spend as helmsman; it is the time where you are listening, absorbing, and learning from the conversations going on around you.

It also cuts down on the power of the sonar supervisor, which is a baaaaad thing. The sonar sup is almost always the most experienced guy in the tracking party. The FTOW is a first termer, the OOD/JOOD are first termers, it is usually only the sonar sup who is on his second or third boat, often with time as an instructor behind him. He is the heart of the sonar watchsection, and to do his job he HAS TO TALK. He cannot do his job at all (much less effectively) if he keeps hearing "Quiet in control" every twelve seconds.

IMO. this is part of a drive to do two things (and these initiatives have been a long time in coming). The first is increasing the power of the wardroom in day-to-day operations (even though the wardroom has less tactical experience and seems to care about nothing but the reactor). The second is the drive to make everyone in the forward compartment interchangeable, so we all are the same rating. That dilutes the experience and knowlege base that our officers need to draw on to keep us safe.

I know a lot of sonar techs who would (and have) immediately refuse orders to any virginia class platform, and it is for these reasons. Maybe I'm just being an immovable traditionalist, but I really doubt it. What I think probably happened is the only people the consulted when designing this new platform were officers (who don't care where sonar is) and nucs (who care even less).

Sorry about the rant, but sonar does not belong in control. Why not just move the reactor operator and throttleman up there while we're at it?

[LoBlo]

Why not move the throttleman up to the control room? Seems like a good idea to me :)

Haven't diesel boats been using the "one room for everyone" layout for years?

[hyperion2206]

Why not move the throttleman up to the control room? Seems like a good idea to me :)

Haven't diesel boats been using the "one room for everyone" layout for years?


I think they do but you have to consider that most of the diesl subs (at least the German subs I think) do not have the space for a seperate sonar shack. I think they do it because they have to, not because it's more efficent.

[sonar732]

Something else that I didn't see is the matter of staffing ability. Our crew was so short that we pulled others from different divisions and gave the the BSO course. If I can remember, we had one guy on SPABB, TABB, and another on the FRAZ. Sup was behind us of course. Our sups were 1st classes or Chiefs.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Why not move the throttleman up to the control room? Seems like a good idea to me :)



The Throtlleman can cause HUGE issues in reactor operations. He is the one who was the most direct input into reactor power output. This would be BAD.. You HAVE to be able to see key guages on the reactor control panel to do your job properly. In fact, that is why Manuvering is located AFT. Control tells us how fast and or how queit it wants to go, we take care of the rest.

oh lord, every nuke who read that sentence shuddered in the seats.

For all of you non-quals out there there are several things that need to be addressed here about keeping major watchstations SEPERATE from the OOD. One, the OOD is concerned with the tactical situation he is operating in. He respondes to the input provided by the ellisted watchstanders. He manevers the ship and engages the enemy.

Putting the sonar operators in control is bad not only because of the noise concerns. The stacks HAVE to be able to communicate to cross-verify information. While I was a nuke, I had the please of sitting on the BSB stack more than once. Facinating experience let me tell you. There are times when one stack was alerted to a possible contact by another stack. Working together, they were able to find the bad guy even faster. The REAL bad thing is the OOD then would be able to walk over to a display and ask 'What is that dot on this display. I think it is....'

He would stop relying on the training and effectiveness of his enlisted operators and start to make his own decisions based on his own skill and training. He would think he could do a BETTER job at random times.

He would LOSE tactical control because he would have the ability to walk over and make his own judgements based on his immediate thought process. He would become SUBJECTIVE rather than OBJECTIVE.

In the older boats he could get to sonar yes, but not with ease of having it in the same compartment 3 feet away. That seperation of a different compartment is psychologically HUGE.

I for one would not like to have a OOD that can be distracted by making his own conclusions based on his own observations.