Grey Wolves AP shells 105mm

[corvette k225]

for some reason I have no AP shells on my deck for IX-B 1943 year, I looked at some of my other boats and have the same problem is it me, or something worng?:damn:

[VonHelsching]

Nope. It's the way it's supposed to be. Don't get me wrong, I liked AP shells too. But the stock game was not historically correct on that.

[corvette k225]

Von Helsching, thanks for the input, you see I have a lot to learn.


thanks.:D

[CWorth]

Nope. It's the way it's supposed to be. Don't get me wrong, I liked AP shells too. But the stock game was not historically correct on that.

I have some sources that show that AP and HE were both carried.Guess this is one more that will be debated on..LOL
Guess history does have a way of clouding the facts with so many variations of the same information being around it must be hard to judge which one is more correct.

http://www.uboataces.com/weapon-deck-gun.shtml

This is from the same site..http://www.uboataces.com/tactics-deckgun.shtml
"An attack could be aimed at the target’s bridge, waterline or weapon systems. Attacking the bridge will hinder the victim’s steering ability, while attacking at the hull’s waterline would quickly sink the ship. Attacks at the bows or stern will sink the ship faster compared to attacks on an even keel. Attacking the weapon’s systems will hinder the victim’s ability to fire back, but it takes just one unlucky shell to penetrate the U-boat’s hull which will make diving impossible. Armor piercing shells are better suited to hull attacks, while high explosive could be used against other targets."

Other sources

http://www.u47.org/english/u47_boa.asp?part=3

[NeonSamurai]

One thing im pretty sure the uboats didnt carry was starshells though.

[bigboywooly]

One thing im pretty sure the uboats didnt carry was starshells though.

<H4>88mm Deck gun

All Type VIIB vessels were armed with the 88mm Deck gun, the Schiffskanone C/35. A powerful and effective weapon located on the forward deck in front of the conning tower, the 88mm gun was mainly used to finish off enemy ships that had been incapacitated by torpedo attack, but it was also used by itself on weaker smaller craft in order to preserve the relatively limited store of torpedoes stowed onboard. In good conditions and with a well-drilled crew (usually of three men, supervised by the 2.WO), the gun could fire at a rate of 15-18 rounds per minute. Although identical in calibre, the 88mm deck gun used on the Type VIIB was of a different design and structure to its counterpart used by the other branches of the German armed forces.

Title:
8.8cm Schiffskanone C/35 in Unterseebootslafette C/35

Calibre: 88mm (3.46")

Breech: Semi-automatic

Traverse: 360 degrees

Elevation: -4 to 30 degrees


Ammunition (high explosive):Weight - 30.11lb (13.7kg) Muzzle Velocity - 700m/s Range - 13,500 yards

Ammunition (AP): Weight - 30.7lb (13.9kg)

Ammunition (Star Shell):Weight - 24.7lb (11.2kg)

</H4>

[Myxale]

One thing im pretty sure the uboats didnt carry was starshells though.
<H4>88mm Deck gun

All Type VIIB vessels were armed with the 88mm Deck gun, the Schiffskanone C/35. A powerful and effective weapon located on the forward deck in front of the conning tower, the 88mm gun was mainly used to finish off enemy ships that had been incapacitated by torpedo attack, but it was also used by itself on weaker smaller craft in order to preserve the relatively limited store of torpedoes stowed onboard. In good conditions and with a well-drilled crew (usually of three men, supervised by the 2.WO), the gun could fire at a rate of 15-18 rounds per minute. Although identical in calibre, the 88mm deck gun used on the Type VIIB was of a different design and structure to its counterpart used by the other branches of the German armed forces.

Title:
8.8cm Schiffskanone C/35 in Unterseebootslafette C/35

Calibre: 88mm (3.46")

Breech: Semi-automatic

Traverse: 360 degrees

Elevation: -4 to 30 degrees


Ammunition (high explosive):Weight - 30.11lb (13.7kg) Muzzle Velocity - 700m/s Range - 13,500 yards

Ammunition (AP): Weight - 30.7lb (13.9kg)

Ammunition (Star Shell):Weight - 24.7lb (11.2kg)

</H4>
Oh, my!
Here it goes! If a good crew could fire 15 - 18 shells in a min. Why the hell must i wait in 15 secons for one shot!
Any why can't In also have AP shells!

Lets debate on that one ;):rotfl:

[NeonSamurai]

Yay another debate :)

My main reasoning for them not carrying starshells is why would they? stealth is a key feature for a Uboat's survival, last thing you want to do in a night gun attack is start lighting the place up as it will just make it easier for the enemy guns to find and target you.

I know if i was a uboat commander, i would certainly not bother carrying starshells (and once most ships are armed not carry a deck gun either).

Btw just because an ammunition type is listed, doesnt meen it was activly used or carried. I also notice that quote doesnt list the ammounts carried.

Anyhow like the II torpedo debate, one can change it pretty easily by editing the basic.cfg file (just look for the 2 guns in it, the ammo carried is under it) if one disagree's.

Oh ya and as for the gun fire rate, the argument has always been that uboats couldnt sustain that rate of fire for very long (or be overly accurate). The reason why it couldnt maintain that as only about 25 or 40 something rounds were kept near the gun in a water tight container, the rest was inside the submarine, which would slow down the rate of fire once the rounds near the gun were expended.

The other main argument was that deck guns could not easily sink most transport ships unlike in sh3. There are several reported cases of uboats using up all their ammunition on a single not overly large ship and not sending it to the bottom. However one could question their accuracy and if they were shooting up the right places.

Typicaly the only way your gona sink a ship is if you put enough holes below the waterline to create enough flooding that the ship looses boyancy (or gets stressed along the keel enough to break the ship up). However one could get lucky and blow a ship to bits by hitting a magazine or transported explosives/fuel, or by hitting a coal bunker that had alot of coal dust in the air. Out of control fires is another way ships can go down (caused by the fire weaking the superstructure to the point of breaking) Also shots above the waterline can help sink a ship that has holes below the waterline, by letting air escape faster, and increasing the flooding as the ship gets lower in the water and those holes get submerged.

[CWorth]

Yay another debate :)

My main reasoning for them not carrying starshells is why would they? stealth is a key feature for a Uboat's survival, last thing you want to do in a night gun attack is start lighting the place up as it will just make it easier for the enemy guns to find and target you.

I know if i was a uboat commander, i would certainly not bother carrying starshells (and once most ships are armed not carry a deck gun either).


I have to agree here..I highly doubt a Uboat would be carrying Starshells.

As for the HE and AP rounds I guess it would be plausible that they carried both.Most naval combatants carried both so I would not think it completely out of the question that they could have had them aboard uboats.I could certainly see where both would come in handy for certain situations.Now whether or not this is the case again is up for debate and personal interpretation of the data at hand.

[bigboywooly]

http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30247.htm
Donitz war diaries

Maybe they carried the starshells at the start of the war only when the uboats were expected to act under the prize rules and search shipping for cargo types

"Open hostilities against England immediately, do not wait to be attacked first." In radio message T.O.O. 1400 Naval War Staff ordered: "U-boats to make war on merchant shipping in accordance with operations order." This should exclude any misunderstanding, as the operations order expressly orders war against merchant shipping in accordance with prize law.

As for giving their position away well same page has this

Radio intelligence service has picked up numerous U-boat positions, mainly in Biscay (U47). Many of these are probably duplicated. If the war against merchant shipping is to be fought according to prize law it is unavoidable that the boats' positions will be revealed.

U-boats which have returned say, that in very many cases ships use their radio when they are ordered to stop, with the result that in several cases a/c have appeared over the positions reported. In this way ships assist enemy anti-S/M activity. I consider it necessary to take action against such ships in order to prevent their taking part in anti-S/M operations in this way, and I have asked Naval War Staff for a ruling.

But nothing says they actually used starshells - in fact quite the revese

It can be taken as certain that these transports sail at night; and at night the U-boat must be able to assume that a darkened ship is an enemy ship, even if in convoy. It is often impossible to establish the nationality of ships in convoy even by day and when flags are not being misused, but at night it is quite out of the question.


This report I like


U 34 entered port. She sank:

1)S.S. Gustav Adolf 935tons Swedish contraband
2)British Sperrbrecher 1,200 tons British
3)S.S. Malabar 7,976 tons British
4)Steamer type Cairnona 4,666 tons"
5)S.S. Bronte 5,317 tons
6)Tanker 6-7,000 tons
Total 26,094 tons
She also brought in the Norwegian "Snar", 3,176, tons, timber, as prize.

Be nice to bring in prize ships in the game

[Ducimus]

Has anyone found concerete proof that AP rounds acutally function as penetrators of hardened targets in this game? When you examine them in the tweaker, all they realy seem to be is a slighly toned down version of an HE round.

In otherwords, AP round seem rather pointless, and unless somethings changed, neither NYGM nor GW's use them in their basic.cfg file.

[Myxale]

Good question Ducimus, was wondering that too!:hmm:

[NeonSamurai]

Ya as far as i can tell there is nothing special about the AP rounds. Though it could be tested by making a mission with neutral stationary ships, alter the uboat used to carry a pile of shells (and also tweek the fire rate so it doesnt take all day) then put say 2 cruisers, fire at the exact same point on each ship (engine room), one using only he rounds, the other ap rounds, count the number of shells it takes to sink the ship for each kind, and repeat several times, then average it out.

If i have the time i may try it.

[Sailor Steve]

John Campbell's Naval Weapons Of World War Two doesn't specifically say no, but in his listing for those guns he does say "Armor Piercing and Illuminating for destroyers and minesweepers".

It's not a no, but it is a pretty strong implication.

[Sailor Steve]

Here it goes! If a good crew could fire 15 - 18 shells in a min. Why the hell must i wait in 15 secons for one shot!
Any why can't In also have AP shells!

Lets debate on that one ;):rotfl:

A good crew could fire that fast-in perfect conditions, and until the ready use ammo ran out. Also they wouldn't hit the target very often. The problem with SHIII is that if you have the storm conditions set to 15 you can fire that fast in a hurricane! Since the firing isn't modelled correctly with other parameters there has to be a compromise somewhere.

[NeonSamurai]

Of course if you know how to mod sh3 its pretty easy to change the guns reload speed to what you want, all ya need is SH3 mini tweeker.

Oh ya and Illuminating for destroyers I dont know about him but the last thing would ever want to do is "illuminating for destroyers" in my uboat. :rotfl: Im sure though the author was probably refering to the ship mounted version not the uboat version.

In game in early war years starshells could be handy for identification at night of single ships. Wouldnt try it in a convoy though.


Btw if anyone wants, ill try testing out if there is anything special to the AP rounds, ill edit one of the subs so it carrys a few thousand rounds of ammo and a deck gun with a half second reload rate, and ill fire till i get the "Ship sinking" message and count the rounds.

[Pablo]

In game in early war years starshells could be handy for identification at night of single ships. Wouldnt try it in a convoy though. I can see it now.... :rotfl:

1WO: "Single ship spotted, Herr Kaleun. We can see her outlined against the Milky Way. Type unknown; range unknown; looks to be going away from us."

Player: "All hands to Action Stations; man the deck gun; fire starshell."

<Boom>

1WO: "Target identified, Herr Kaleun. Tribal-class destroyer, closing fast. They're pointing at us! Wow, look at the size of that bow wave! Target has opened fire...."

Player: "Uh-oh"

;) Pablo

[Pablo]

Hi!

I think that if I were a submarine skipper I would take only HE ammo, on the grounds that if I'm shooting at an armored target with my single gun using AP ammo the target will be shooting back with bigger guns and a lot more of them, not to mention much better-aimed.

Better to remove temptation and be thought a fool than to fight on the surface and remove all doubt. :)

Pablo

[NEON DEON]

Yay another debate :)

Oh ya and as for the gun fire rate, the argument has always been that uboats couldnt sustain that rate of fire for very long (or be overly accurate). The reason why it couldnt maintain that as only about 25 or 40 something rounds were kept near the gun in a water tight container, the rest was inside the submarine, which would slow down the rate of fire once the rounds near the gun were expended.



Well you do it like a fireman's bucket brigade.

Quote from Uboat.net on firing the deck gun:


"In order to use the weapon the U-boat had to be on the surface naturally and it was normally not used when aircraft were suspected to be around. It required a line of men (3 which on the deck) to transport the ammunition from the main locker below the control room to the gun. The used rounds were taken back into the boat. The U-boats had a small water-proof ammunition locker for the gun on the deck in order to be able to start firing almost immediately when the order was given."

http://uboat.net/technical/guns.htm

I am not sure U Boats had an ammunition scuttle, but U. S. fleet boats did. That way they could easily get the ammo up to the gun without having to pass it thru the hatch. Still doent mean that the bucket brigade would not work.

[Kruger]

Now, that you are talking about deck gun ammunition...I noticed a strange thing. When I was running the stock 1.4 game, I could manually select the type of shells. In GW, if eventually I run out of shells, the deck gun crew begins shelling the enemy with the star shells. Still...If I want to intentionally fire a star shell over an enemy ship at any given time, I cannot manually select it. It just doesn't react to my clicks....

[Pablo]

I am not sure U Boats had an ammunition scuttle, but U. S. fleet boats did. That way they could easily get the ammo up to the gun without having to pass it thru the hatch. Still doent mean that the bucket brigade would not work. Hi!

I have read that a bucket brigade approach was used since U-boats did not have an ammunition scuttle. Ammunition was lifted by hand up through to the top of the conning tower, sent through a chute down to the deck, and then carried across the deck to the gun once the ready ammunition supply (about 20 rounds in a watertight container built into the deck near the deck gun) was used up.

From a "realism" (dare I say the word) perspective I think there should have been some waiting period from the time the "man the deck gun" order is given until the time the gun is ready to fire to account for the time the deck gun crew needed to prepare the gun to fire, but in SHIII the gun is ready pretty much instantaneously. I don't know if there is any way to change the simulation to recreate this effect.

There were apparently a couple of instances during the war when the gun crew forgot to remove the gun barrel plug (that stopped sea water from filling the barrel while the U-boat was submerged), with unfortunate results for the gun and its crew.

Pablo

[Sailor Steve]

Hi!

I think that if I were a submarine skipper I would take only HE ammo, on the grounds that if I'm shooting at an armored target with my single gun using AP ammo the target will be shooting back with bigger guns and a lot more of them, not to mention much better-aimed.

Better to remove temptation and be thought a fool than to fight on the surface and remove all doubt. :)

Pablo
Since the smallest ships to carry any armor were light cruisers, I tend to agree.

[NeonSamurai]

Well fortunatly im not blind enough yet to be unable to tell a warship from a transport ship at night, I ment more for telling its nationality. :ping:

Yep the bucket system was used for moving shells, however it was still a slow and carefull process, you dont exactly want to drop a 88mm or 105mm shell inside a uboat onto a steel deck. Personaly i think 8-10 seconds is a reasonable comprimise.

I havent had any troubles selecting different shells when the ammo for one runs out, starshells included in GW.

Unfortunatly i dont know of a way of slowing down the gun manning process, just as i dont know how to make the game stop auto filling the conning tower with out diving. Not sure either is possible.

Another comment on starshells is i noticed in stock GW the damage attached to them was fairly high, which i thought odd given a starshell is mostly made of phosphorus, and has a parachute attached. No real explosives (phosphorus is an incindiery chemical that reacts to oxigen), and the shell is designed to be light so it stays up longer. So its unlikely to penetrate the side of the ship, it doesnt burn when immersed in water, at most it might set fire to something above deck.