Modding enemy AI DD senor question

[Wulfmann]

I have tweaked many of these files with TT’s tools but while most are more difficult one is not. After I dive deep the escorts now lose track of me fairly quick.
Before, they never lost me and would keep going until out of DCs.
My Bearing for sonar is 40 (GW 15 RUB 60 Stock 90) and for hydro mine is 140 (GW120 RUB 135 stock 135)
So it is safe to say that is not it.
What makes the DDs lose interest as compared to never giving up?
I want something in between this.
Anyone, anyone???

Wulfmann

[Ducimus]

What makes the DDs lose interest as compared to never giving up

Lots of things really. First thing to look at is the sim.cfg file. The biggest culprit is lostcontact time. you really want at least 30 (mins) on this. If your a masochist like me, you'll put it at 45 mins or more :D

The next thing is the noise and wave factor settings. This effects how well an escort can hear you, and how much they can hear in rough weather. The rougher the sea, the less they can hear.

Active sonar bearings is another biggie. Personnaly i would recommend a max bearing of at least 70.

[JScones]

What makes the DDs lose interest as compared to never giving up

Lots of things really. First thing to look at is the sim.cfg file. The biggest culprit is lostcontact time. you really want at least 30 (mins) on this. If your a masochist like me, you'll put it at 45 mins or more :D

The next thing is the noise and wave factor settings. This effects how well an escort can hear you, and how much they can hear in rough weather. The rougher the sea, the less they can hear.

Active sonar bearings is another biggie. Personnaly i would recommend a max bearing of at least 70.
Two things to bear in mind though:

1. SH3Cmdr randomises this value between 15 and 45 minutes automatically (though the randomisation can be removed by the player if wanted), so don't change the game file if using SH3Cmdr;
2. Setting to anything greater than 45 minutes, whilst perhaps more commensurate with real life, creates unfair advantages to u-boats within SH3 (this is one of those prime examples where you MUST balance realism with playability). What happens is, if you set it to anything much higher, and you outrun the destroyers, you pretty much have an unprotected convoy at your mercy, as the destroyer will either lose contact with it, or chug back at cruising speed, thus never catching back up with it.

[Gammel]

@Ducimus & Wulfmann

Do you know what the height factor (Hydrophone) is for in Sim.cfg?
The long loading times of the game makes testing a pain...:-?

Here are the settings i´m using atm, quite happy with that - stock AIsensors.dat

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=0.39 ;[>=0]

[Sonar]
Detection time=20 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=2 ;[s]

[Reece]

Thanks for bringing this up Wulfmann, I have encounted 2 convoys in 39 with GW & both times the DD's homed in on me very quickly & no matter what I did they just kept pounding me till I Died!!:-? An external view showed that whatever move I made the DD matched till it dropped fair on top of me!:down: I tried various depths, silent running, quick bursts of speed whilst turning but the sods just followed my every move, I am runing SH3 Commander though. (and many thanks Jaesen:D ).
Might try some tweaking my self, assume a new patrol to take effect?:)

[Gammel]

No need for a new patrol, but you should finish your current engagement first
and ship out of area to make the game spawn "fresh units".

The detection indicator in realism setting is also very useful, but for turning on/off you´ll have to start a new patrol.

[Wulfmann]

I too found that with the original GW they locked on like they had a cable attched and while (Me patting myself on the back:smug: ) I am pretty good at this and would do 2, 3 or 4 hours of it but I only had to make one serious mistake and so long me.
As you can see my AI sensor settings are actually harder than GW so I was also thinking it might be the sim cfg and after last night's patrol I reset them to the harder settings of RUB and GW
In that attack, July 44, I sank 3 Merken DEs fighting my way in then sank two T3's and slipped away from 12 other DEs) once I got to 200 meters (I had been chewed up at peri depth fine all compartments with flooding etc) they just kept DCes the spot I went down and never located me again.
This is happening in calm water as well as rough.
Point is they are on me at shallow depth but not when I go deep or at least not after a few minutes
I agree there is a middle ground between reality and playability and I got so close then went blasting by it.
I have tuned the DCes so they damage me but no more one hit and the flooding is so fast I am done for but it was funny last night when I watched a hedgehog come right at and hit my periscope which then went totally black being destroyed.
I loved sweating it out but want that fine line between being able to escape but with the greatest of difficulty. Now I can go to TC after I go deep (undamaged I will go to 260) and wait for them to get far enough away so that is no better than the locked on I have no chance thing.
I will check my new sim cfg settings before I start tonight’s patrol.
BTW, I added PT Boats around my French base after D-Day and it was hell sneaking out as I removed the great fleet that in real life was devastated at D-Day by putting an end date of June 6 instead of the later year in GW.
My way replicates history as I have read. However, I believe I must add a few coastal batteries to keep these form getting too close.
I also added DDs out side of St Nazaire but to the RND and have not seen them yet, they are further out
JS that might not apply to me because my convoys have many more escorts as many as 15-18 from May 43 on for all convoys and once I pull away from the convoy usually 2 or 3 will follow at most. I will, however, up it to 45 and we shall see.
Like I said, many things are better but this one I overstepped and must find that line where I am listening to every noise on the hydro making sure I zig and not zag.
But after about 2 hours of that and the fun factor diminishes.
Wulfmann

[Reece]

I must admit that both times with a convoy the sea was too shallow & the max depth was less than 100m, but in 39 they really shouldn't be able to find me that easily & stay on me, not sure when Asdic came out but I'm certain they didn't have it in 39.:down:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Sonar Timeline
1916: Approx. The Allied Anti-Submarine Detection Investigation Committee (ASDIC) develops the first version...a hydrophone hanging over the side of a ship.
1921: Asdic installed on the HMS Antrim was able to detect a shutdown submarine on the bottom at 2000 yards (under optimal conditions).
1931: The U.S. Navy Underwater Sound Group produces the QB echo-ranging SOund Navigation and Ranging (SONAR) effective below 6 knots.
1934: First echo-ranging equipment installed in the American destroyers of DesDiv 20.
1939: West Coast Sound School opened at San Diego Destroyer Base.
1939: Over 165 British destroyers, sloops and trawlers are carrying asdic equipment that can be used at 15 knots. Adopted by the United States, the "Searchlight" operated at 14-22 kilohertz and was effective up to 2,500 yards. This range was reduced by rough or high-salinity seas, underwater temperature inversions and thermo clines. Although sonar was responsible for 68 of the 104 submarine kills in '39 and '40, it was found to be an ineffective area sweep tool.
1941: Summer. A British invention, the Attack Teacher was installed in Portland, Maine for training destroyer sailors in ASW tactics.
1941: October. Bathythermograph introduced to the Fleet.
1942: The "Q-attachment" is fielded. It enables the sonar to detect the new deep-diving submarines that can operate below the searchlight's detection cone. It operates at 38 1/2 kilohertz to a range of 1,200 yards.
1943: The "Type 147" sonar called "Sword" fielded that allows tracking of the deep-diving submarines. It operated at 50 kilohertz and was effective out to 1,000 yards. It could provide depth and targeting information to the British "squid", an ASW rocket propelled depth charge.

[Ducimus]

@Ducimus & Wulfmann

Do you know what the height factor (Hydrophone) is for in Sim.cfg?
The long loading times of the game makes testing a pain...:-?

Here are the settings i´m using atm, quite happy with that - stock AIsensors.dat
...


Honestly im not entirely sure what the height factor does for hydrophones. Havent really had much of a reason to experiment with it. Hydrophones for the most part only require an adjustment of the noise and wave factor settings to work worth a damn.

As for your sonar settings, try lower the contact time on your active sonar. heheheh.

[Reece]

Well there's an eye opener for ya!:up: Thanks Teddy, I was going on the "Happy Years" when aircraft was scarce, & I thought their detection equipment was poor, Will just have to stay clear of convoys in relatively shallow water & fire from a distance then get the hell out - "Silent Running" - like a fast snail!:D
Cheers.

[Wulfmann]

This is now a bigger deal than I thought.
Since this transformed my game from no chance at all to less and now no way can they keep a track of me there is something not Kosher in Jerusalem here.
get this: I put the stock GW sim cfg and the AI sensors back in, increased the decay time to 45, the only change in sim and increased the bearing from 15 to 45 for sonar and slightly for hydrophone.
Result?
None, they can not keep my scent.
I would hear them drop DCes further away from me (Original contact point) and would charge back on high speed so they would detect me and then I leave them again easily.
So, one thing I changed that I will try tonight is the turning radius of the DDs. If I am right this change happened about the time I made that edit.
I replaced all the .sim files in the DDs and will see if that helps.
I know that seems far fetched but it has to be something I changed and with the AI_Sensors and sim.cfg in the cfg folder back to GW I don't know what else there is?

Wulfmann

[Reece]

Well keep me posted because I sure am interested, 2 things that spoil game play to me:
1) TC set higher than 32, TC changes to 1x, Sub hit and almost sinking, WO reports aircraft!!:-? (A bit too damn late) :nope:
2) Fire torpedo, DD's home in, DD's drop DC's on top of my deck, Dead!:nope:

At the same time I certainly don't want them totally stupid, I like the DC's, silent running, going deeper, pinging etc. It's the best part of game but not uber!:stare: These two areas have always been an issue & hard to crack!:yep: Certainly plenty of posts on the latter subject.
Reece.

[CB..]

i think for me personaly this is one of the slightly odd areas of realism and gameplay that gets confused very quickly--
now we all know from reading matter etc that many times subs were dc'd for literally days on end-- certainly many many hours--ok fine--

but generally the only practical way to play thru such long term attacks is by using time excell--l--(if they are a regular occurance in game)

so if using time excell you reduce the 4/6/8 hour DC attack to one/two hours--
you have endured a one/two hour DC attack--

me i set my game up so i GET a one/two hour DC attack that i can play thru in REAL TIME--one second at a time-

i'll leave the maths to every one else--

edit/

the thing of it is that I control how long the DC attack lasts---
if i persist in the attack and stay close to the shipping trying to get into a firing position then naturally- if i have been detected- the Dc attacks continue--for as long as you can survive 8 hours plus if it's a slow moving convoy and you are skill full in survival and evasion--the skys the limit for DC attack officiandos

if i abandon the attack and make an escape away from the shipping then the DC attacks tend to stop once i have been driven far enough away from the convoy to no longer be able to make an attack--meaning an attack of less than one or two hours--

usually with the correct damage model on the sub i have been damaged to the point i cannot make a fresh attack untill many hours later and the damage is repaired-or i have lost the scopes etc and have to return home--

result is i get the aspects of realism and gameplay that are to me relevant--not the purely statistical realism of the time spent under DC attack--which if realistic i have to shorten artifically by using time excell-- obviuosly a contradiction in terms realism wise


not rocket science at the end of the day--just common sense IMO

[Wulfmann]

CB, not related to this issue at all. I no longer have DDs able to keep teack of me once I go deep. They lose me after I go past 50 meters. This is contrary to before when no matter what I did they could match my every move for hour upon hour.
I just can not figure out what I modded that had made them limp at depth. They will continue to attack me at peri depth to no end keeping good track of me. But once I dive they lose me. If I run back at them at full speed and get detected I can simpley go to silent running (3 knots not slower) and they will drop the first bunch on me then continue to drop on that spot as if I have not moved.
What I am looking for is ideas on what files I modded to accomplish this. It is not AI sensors or the CFG simcfg file as I have changed them back to GW when I could never escape so am still at a lose as to what I did to take the teeth out of the DDs.
I do 1x for these but when they get farther away to see if I have lost them I can go to 256TC as they are out of range.
Wulfmann

[CB..]

there's a sensor depth setting in the dat file (if i remember right)
re-open your aisensors.dat and check the sensor depth range settings for ALL the sensors including the generic ones

[Wulfmann]

CB, Everyone is -300 for all underwater apparatus. I had not changed any of them that is what is wierd. Had the Germans figured this out they might have won the war!:rotfl:

Wulfmann

[CB..]

no idea Wulf!

there's an max angle down wards for the sensors perhaps that is worth checking--other than that it's probably wise to revert to your stock set up (or previous one) and start again--law of diminishing returns et al
:yep: