View Full Version : have all contact reports made solely by U-boats..?
ok this has been haranging my head for some time--lol
using serg's AI compatible wolfpack u-boats
and an extension of an idea by Col7777..
first set all contact reports probability for every convoy to zero--in the RND,,
then add one of serg's excellent AI Uboats for each convoy (around 50 as stock) and copy the way-points and other details for a particular convoy to the u-boat--and then give the u-boat a decent contact report probabilty ---
if nothing else this will slowly draw onto the map the convoy routes at that period in the war--with the added immersion factor that these clues to the routes of the convoys will be being provided by in game german u-boats--
not 100% reliable of course for all the typical campaign file reasons random way points etc etc--But then that's more realistic and add's gameplay at the same time---
this way all you see on the map is the blue icon for a u-boat report and nothing else--:yep:
A Gem Of An Idea.
Perhaps A radio message With grid,so we could look for contact AI sub's location,also dropping us out of TC.to have time to react.Course and Speed of contact would be helpful also. Immersion factor,& game-play;JSGME,Installable
This mod would be A must have item. What A fix! (Encouragement):sunny:
A Gem Of An Idea.
Perhaps A radio message With grid,so we could look for contact AI sub's location,also dropping us out of TC.to have time to react.Course and Speed of contact would be helpful also. Immersion factor,& game-play;JSGME,Installable
This mod would be A must have item. What A fix! (Encouragement):sunny:
don't look at me ..lol--i aint going thru all the various mods available editing them all to use this system of contact reports--quite apart from the immense amount of work needed --permissions to get and objections to negotiate etc etc---
i'm going to add it to my own campaign (which is more or less stock)
and let the other guys decide on the merits of it either way--which is why i posted it as a viable suggestion--these days SH3 modding is way too polarised for any one to just add something to the stock campaign and post it---:rotfl:
sides you've missed the point a little bit--you would get the sub icon on the map--and the report as with any other opportunty contact report--
the issue really is that you could greatly increase your contact report range because ALL contacts would be being made by friendly subs--
the increase in frequency and range of these reports will allow the intelligent player to build a picture of convoy routes without giving them exact and 100% reliable convoy positions--
whilst at the same time giving much greater immersion/realism/gameplay because you have the ultra realistic situation of relying entirely on friendly subs for all your convoy information --and these subs will be REAL
it's a very nice soloution to quite a few other issues as well--
ease of convoy location
high tonnage results
too much information on the map not enough in your imagination etc etc--
tried a test--set all convoys and other shipping to nil probability of a contact report--added two of Serg's wolfpack subs--as random groups using the same specs and waypoints as the first HX and OA convoys in the RND file---started a career patrol --and yup no contact reports from anywhere other than these two reports from serg's wolfpack boats--slowly up-dating over time--
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf1.jpg
works brilliantly--as this represents the Kriegsmarine sending boats to routes and locations that best represents the most accurate current intelligence regarding convoys....one wolfpack boat for each convoy route -given the same specs probability of inclusion as the actual convoy should provide genuinely usefull and realistic intelligence provided in real time in the most authentic way possible--
no garantee that a convoy will be along this route or at these locations--just best info as gathered from the actual routes etc in the campaign files
here's the RND file entrys for the OA wolfpack
just to show these reports are sent by genuine in game u-boats
[RndGroup 1719]
GroupName=OAWolf
Category=0
CommandEntry=0
Long=130500.000000
Lat=6201400.000000
Height=-10.000000
DelayMin=160
DelayMinInterv=8640
SpawnProbability=90
RandStartRadius=4.000000
ReportPosMin=600
ReportPosProbability=50
Heading=112.525002
Speed=9.000000
ColumnsNo=2
Spacing=700
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
CurrentInstanceID=0
GameEntryDate=19390803
GameEntryTime=200
GameExitDate=19451229
GameExitTime=0
NextWP=0
[RndGroup 1719.RndUnit 1]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=1
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=4
[RndGroup 1719.RndUnit 2]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=1
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=4
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 1]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=154950.000000
Lat=6191260.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 2]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=5.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=192350.000000
Lat=6185560.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 3]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=201950.000000
Lat=6164260.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 4]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=188750.000000
Lat=6134660.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 5]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=157850.000000
Lat=6109960.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 6]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=5.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=111750.000000
Lat=6087060.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 7]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=10.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-20650.000000
Lat=6054160.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 8]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=10.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-167150.000000
Lat=6028660.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 9]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=10.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-345650.000000
Lat=6021660.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 10]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=50.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-680150.000000
Lat=5927660.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 11]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=200.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-1088150.000000
Lat=5797660.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 12]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=400.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-2084150.000000
Lat=5531660.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 13]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=300.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-3132400.000000
Lat=5323160.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 14]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=250.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-4400650.000000
Lat=5024660.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 15]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=200.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-5557150.000000
Lat=4927660.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 16]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=100.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-6569610.000000
Lat=4940000.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 17]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=50.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-7180770.000000
Lat=4986500.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 18]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=20.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-7394770.000000
Lat=5176000.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 19]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=5.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-7576770.000000
Lat=5314800.000000
Height=-10.000000
[RndGroup 1719.Waypoint 20]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-7610570.000000
Lat=5343100.000000
Height=-10.000000
////
NUFF SAID really...:yep:
Glad your test results look good.IUB is practically stock,& unsupported,suggestion;give Orgy's work valor at sea,still lots of Captains sailing with the foundation it supplies.:yep: Also,turn the Devs for SHIV.,on to your gem
Glad your test results look good.IUB is practically stock,& unsupported,suggestion;give Orgy's work valor at sea,still lots of Captains sailing with the foundation it supplies.:yep:
the reason for this post is to allow others to use this idea if they decide it suits their interpretation of good gameplay--
i ain't gonna work on Maggies farm no more lol!!
bigboywooly
06-12-06, 05:05 PM
:o Looks a cool mod but it would take for ever to edit the .rnd
might give it a bash when I have a spare weekend lol it took me forever to alter all the DDHunts to DEHunts and thats not a patch on what you have done there
CB..Sir,
"I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more lol"!!:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
We comprehend that.
SHCE.,had Special missions from friendly contacts on enemy movements,into other subs assigned patrol areas,thus suggestion for SHIV. Fair winds,& following seas:arrgh!: Do you mind, if I refference this thread on SHIV.forum
cheers guys:up:
seems most folks don't like this sort of genuinely recreated realism/gameplay approach...he he!:lol:
bigboywooly
06-12-06, 05:23 PM
LOL not that dont like it its just a hell of a lotta work altering the layers to add the boats to convoys
Personally think its a great idea as in RL the nav map wouldnt have been covered in big red squares lol
you might be able to get away with 7 or 8 ai subs rather than going the whole hog and adding over 50 of them to cover all the individual convoys as they change over time---
if you add one for each of the major convoy routes you should be ok with 7 or 8 --at a pinch this would be fun and still give usefull convoy information--be nice to have the full dynamic set of 50+ as this would be very interesting to play--but i agree it's a huge job (i think i may try the one per route job to see how i go along)
bigboywooly
06-12-06, 05:46 PM
:hmm: maybe a way to go
Just used find in notepad on my .rnd and have over 100 convoys in there not looked at .scr:o
:hmm: maybe a way to go
Just used find in notepad on my .rnd and have over 100 convoys in there not looked at .scr:o
i know but quite a lot of them will be the same convoy at different times during the war--changed names but more or less the same route etc--once you've worked out the main routes (use the paper map) you could just have wolfpacks patrolling along the main routes or even just those your primarily interested at the time--
bigboywooly
06-12-06, 05:58 PM
Sold :rotfl:
Will have a play with over the weekend when have some time
Will just do a few for now - over 200 convoy in .scr so will start small see how I get on
Sold :rotfl:
Will have a play with over the weekend when have some time
Will just do a few for now - over 200 convoy in .scr so will start small see how I get on:lol:
now you know why i never use other folks campaign files--
50 odd convoys is quite enough for me--(no wonder folks get such high tonnage rates?)
anyhuw here's me on a career patrol being directed onto a suspected convoy by my Flottilla buddys--now that's my sort of realism thank you very much!!:rotfl:
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf2.jpg
HEMISENT
06-12-06, 07:54 PM
CB This sounds like another brilliant idea. I may give it a go later this week-probably will be contacting you for guidance when I inevitably screw something up.
CB This sounds like another brilliant idea. I may give it a go later this week-probably will be contacting you for guidance when I inevitably screw something up.
He! He! i wouldn't like to attempt it on one of the hugely modded campaigns -but for the stock or semi stock it's perfectly do-able--as it turns out on the example in the screen shot in the previous post there WAS a convoy nearby--(i got the time excell "freeze" give away)--but i lost it before i could pin down exactly where it was--but it's close by some where:up: great stuff--- the subs travel independantly from the convoys along the same way-points and at only approximaitely the same speed--this allows for plenty of margin for error--and uncertainty--
this is with only three of serg's subs added on the HX OA and HG routes
as i add more i can lower the number of contact reports they send and lower the probability of them being spawned at mission start--
i reckon with the semi stock campaign 7 or 8 -one more or less for each of the main convoy routes will more than do the trick
no other contact reports appear on the map at all--tho that's the sort of thing that could be changed to taste of course--
what a shame...:nope:
i get the feeling that -apart from the guys who have posted here- the concept and execution of this mod idea is something in the region of 100,000 miles over most peoples heads--which is pretty radical considering the endless drivel spouted about the desire for realism here abouts--
(i'll have to take the whole realism nonsense with the usual huge pinch of salt as ever-:roll: -as this approach to contact reports is as real as the game is going to get--:up: )
i'm having fun tho so-- sod it lol:rotfl:
sergbuto
06-13-06, 07:34 AM
Yes, it is cool stuff, CB. Occupied with modding of new units, I have not gotten to work closer with the Mission Editor yet. I also wish Col7777 could continue with all his ideas on the wolfpack implementation in the campaign.
I guess one does not need to modify the RND layer directly. It should be possible to work with these things separately and then megde the files in the end.
Yes, it is cool stuff, CB. Occupied with modding of new units, I have not gotten to work closer with the Mission Editor yet. I also wish Col7777 could continue with all his ideas on the wolfpack implementation in the campaign.
I guess one does not need to modify the RND layer directly. It should be possible to work with these things separately and then megde the files in the end.
cheers serg' cheers especailly again for your AI compatible subs:up:
i've been trying to find Col's thread detailing his experiments on actually adding your subs directly to convoys them selves--i know he said this actualy worked--he just added an AI wolfpack sub to the list of convoy ships--and bingo instant wolfpack action--
now then the reason this is such a good idea on top of using your subs for the contact reports--is that it exploits one of the drawbacks the game has to good effect--
in that no combat is modelled out side of the 3D loading range--so you can happily have a german sub cruising alongside a convoy for it's entire journey knowing that only when you the player are within range of the convoy and it has been loaded into the 3d engine--will any destroyers start to treat the wolfpack sub as a threat--
so this actually means that as you approach the convoy you are liable to start see-ing sunken ship icons on the map--and possibly find the odd ship on fire or damaged as it comes into visual range---
i can't find Col's thread where he gave an example of the correct way to addd the sub tho--and im getting a bit lazy in my old age--
BUT the combination of the two uses for your subs gives rise to a wonderfull new way to play the game not to mention the enourmous hike in gameplay realism potatoes or what ever folks fancy calling their intepretation of the game's implementation of realism
so all contact reports given only by genuine wolfpack/lone AI subs
100% realistic
and the possibility of finding other subs attacking the convoy as and when you approach
100% realistic
whoooooosh straight over the tonnage queens heads :arrgh!:
what a shame...:nope:
i get the feeling that -apart from the guys who have posted here- the concept and execution of this mod idea is something in the region of 100,000 miles over most peoples heads--which is pretty radical considering the endless drivel spouted about the desire for realism here abouts--
(i'll have to take the whole realism nonsense with the usual huge pinch of salt as ever-:roll: -as this approach to contact reports is as real as the game is going to get--:up: )
i'm having fun tho so-- sod it lol:rotfl:
Realism is in the eye of the player.
I enjoy playing as historically accurate as I can..but only to a certain point.I for one like the idea and think it is great for those that enjoy that,but I doubt I would use it.For me there comes a point where to much realism takes the fun out of the game.And this is just over that line for my personal tastes.
I may give it a try sometime just for giggles and may even learn to enjoy it but it is also just to much for me to have to edit that huge RND file..LOL.
Realism is in the eye of the player.
I enjoy playing as historically accurate as I can..but only to a certain point.I for one like the idea and think it is great for those that enjoy that,but I doubt I would use it.For me there comes a point where to much realism takes the fun out of the game.And this is just over that line for my personal tastes.
I may give it a try sometime just for giggles and may even learn to enjoy it but it is also just to much for me to have to edit that huge RND file..LOL.
he he!! it's nice to be able to pick and choose which aspects of realism we can enjoy isn't it--
which is precisely why the whole issue is bunk---;)
VonHelsching
06-13-06, 08:49 AM
Brilliant idea CB..! After the minelayer mod, now this.
What next?
Brilliant idea CB..! After the minelayer mod, now this.
What next?
:up: same with SH2 really there is a never ending list of things that can be attempted--especailly if you come in from a slightly askew angle--this is the trouble with some realism mods --they tend to have tunnel vision..
the issue with SH3 is really the file structure--most files contain dozens of references to various different aspects of the game--where as SH2 tended to have one file for each element- so making and releasing mods was a much more straight forward affair ---
i dont bother much with SH3 moding because what ever i produce will in evitably p*ss some one off some where because it will require the over-writing of a mod they have constructed -even if the two mods are entirely unrelated--
so i haven't bothered much except for my own indulgence--
now i've solved the main element of the game for me which was the Destroyer/convoy escort behaviour in a full and satisfying manner--
now I'm enjoying the game so i am getting round to trying out ideas i have been too uninterested to bother with before--
next on the list i suppose once i completed the modification of my campaign to use serg's wolfpack subs--will be the weather--because that really has to be moddable up to something more interesting--
one of th things me and Col7777 worked on for SH2 was the weather--
folks had been playing it for years and never realised that the weather could be made changing and dynamic--Col7777 sussed how to write dynamic changing weather into the campaign--it was far FAR superior to the weather in SH3
basically you could write the weather into the campaign in exactly the same way as you would write a convoy--bad weather front size rain cloud types etc located at lat long etc etc travelling at 4 knots north west--and you could have unlimited numbers of weather fronts all dynamicly moving across the map--
he he! i spent a month writing a dynamic campaign generator (with rossbachs help) with fully implemented dynamic weather including accurate weather reports on all weather fronts--size location type movment rain speed etc etc
no one was interested in that one either---peasants..:rotfl: :know:
in that no combat is modelled out side of the 3D loading range--so you can happily have a german sub cruising alongside a convoy for it's entire journey knowing that only when you the player are within range of the convoy and it has been loaded into the 3d engine--will any destroyers start to treat the wolfpack sub as a threat--
so this actually means that as you approach the convoy you are liable to start see-ing sunken ship icons on the map--and possibly find the odd ship on fire or damaged as it comes into visual range---
Isn't that the way real wolfpacks attack?, shadowing the convoy and hit when all in attack range?, If you can pull this out, it will be amazing :o
Ref
Isn't that the way real wolfpacks attack?, shadowing the convoy and hit when all in attack range?, If you can pull this out, it will be amazing :o
Ref
yes..come to think of it your right!:up:
i'm still looking for Col7777's thread with details of how to add in the subs to the convoy ship formations--
gouldjg
06-13-06, 11:55 AM
Great progress CB :up:
We all just need to convince you to do it :lol:
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Stiebler
06-13-06, 01:06 PM
I regret that I am having trouble following the argument of this thread.
CB has proposed (and demonstrated) that it is possible to move an AI U-boat along an empty convoy track (more-or-less), giving signals as it does so. This is certainly a clever idea, but surely it can not be called realistic. Real convoys did not run on railway tracks - even approximately.
There is then a secondary suggestion that the AI U-boat should move with the convoy. Since the convoys are randomly generated, the AI U-boat *must* be part of the convoy if its signals are to have any meaning. There may be a way of doing this with a German AI U-boat, but if so you are merely changing red marks of the convoy's progress on the map for blue marks. Is this worth all the labour involved in making the changes?
I suspect that the AI U-boats will have to be made neutral or even Allied to keep up with the convoy while not being attacked by it. So you may not even improve the colour of the markings on the map.
It may be that I have failed to understand a key part of CB's proposal, in which case apologies and I await your enlightenment. But presumably other people have the same difficulty as me, which is why there is so little interest.
However, I would definitely be interested in a mod to change weather patterns (excluding a change occurring only at the beginning of the patrol). If I could fix just one thing in the hard code of SH3, it would be to change those infuriating fog-and-gale patterns that feel like they last forever and are hopelessly unrealistic (if I may use the 'realism'-word) for such extended periods.
Stiebler.
bigboywooly
06-13-06, 01:19 PM
The AI uboats wont be attacked by convoy until its within your sensor range as thats when game loads the convoy into the 3d engine - it doesnt exist as a 3d convoy till you discover it
From what I gather CB is not proposing putting a wolfpack with every convoy and even the ones which have AI boats may deviate as dictated in the random layer so you might still not come across them
I think the thought behind this is the only convoys that will show on the map are radio reports from uboats and even then you are not guaranteed to find it - and if he does succeed in putting in a wolfpack when you arrive at the convoy you may find it already attacked by AI wolfpack
Either way you wont be the only boat on scene at convoy which is kinda cool
Single merchants wouldnt be affected but wouldnt show on map either if the changes CB proposed at the start are put in so would be a lot more realistic than the system now
Currently trying to download GW unchange and addon so will give it a go then
Edit
AI boats not running along an empty convoy route but its added to the convoy so if the convoy spawns ( as not 100% ) then uboat will as well and in effect be following convoy relaying radio reports back to BDU and other boats
sergbuto
06-13-06, 01:25 PM
CB has proposed (and demonstrated) that it is possible to move an AI U-boat along an empty convoy track (more-or-less), giving signals as it does so. This is certainly a clever idea, but surely it can not be called realistic. Real convoys did not run on railway tracks - even approximately.
It has nothing to do with the railway tracks but with some U-boats spotting/shadowing a convoy spawned by the game and communicating this info to BDU. Therefore, such a situation is indeed realistic regardless the tricks it is created with.
I suspect that the AI U-boats will have to be made neutral or even Allied to keep up with the convoy while not being attacked by it.
How can the AI U-boat be attacked if it is not even 3D-rendered? The Allied convoy including German AI U-boat as a part of the convoy will follow the waypoints until it has to be 3D-rendered close to the player U-boat. Only then the whole action will start. The AI-sub will attack ships in convoy and DDs will attack the sub. Very good idea by Col7777.
I regret that I am having trouble following the argument of this thread.
CB has proposed (and demonstrated) that it is possible to move an AI U-boat along an empty convoy track (more-or-less), giving signals as it does so. This is certainly a clever idea, but surely it can not be called realistic. Real convoys did not run on railway tracks - even approximately.
There is then a secondary suggestion that the AI U-boat should move with the convoy. Since the convoys are randomly generated, the AI U-boat *must* be part of the convoy if its signals are to have any meaning. There may be a way of doing this with a German AI U-boat, but if so you are merely changing red marks of the convoy's progress on the map for blue marks. Is this worth all the labour involved in making the changes?
I suspect that the AI U-boats will have to be made neutral or even Allied to keep up with the convoy while not being attacked by it. So you may not even improve the colour of the markings on the map.
It may be that I have failed to understand a key part of CB's proposal, in which case apologies and I await your enlightenment. But presumably other people have the same difficulty as me, which is why there is so little interest.
However, I would definitely be interested in a mod to change weather patterns (excluding a change occurring only at the beginning of the patrol). If I could fix just one thing in the hard code of SH3, it would be to change those infuriating fog-and-gale patterns that feel like they last forever and are hopelessly unrealistic (if I may use the 'realism'-word) for such extended periods.
Stiebler.
;) i knew the old realism angle would get new folks coming into the thread-- works every time--all you have to do is make some claims regarding realism and bingo away it goes--well at least it's created some interest---you have to have a basic understanding of how the convoys work within the RND layer of the campaign--
lets just say here you have an alternative to the stock method of contact reports--
that uses genuine AI driven german u-boats as your only source of map information regarding convoys--- most but not all of the time that information will be worth taking note of--the convoy may be ahead of the contact report location or it may be behind--but it will be along that route if the convoy has spawned at mission start---
the whole thing is a question of balance--a question of gameplay---
time and time again folks allways assume i dont know what i'm talking about-lol--i've been at this lark a long time you know
Well, as someone who enjoyed yr work on Sh2 and is genuinly interested in this idea i say go for it. I always assume that contact reports are coming from U-boats anyway so to have actual AI driven boats out there getting involved is a great, great idea and so obvious it hurts.
Aside from anything else it will add to that feeling of a genuine naval war being fought out beyond the confines of your boat. Good one guys - I'm certainly interested. :up:
gouldjg
06-13-06, 01:53 PM
Hey CB
Am I right in thinking this will already be randomised in the game via probabilities or is it something I could possibly set up and control via randomised events?
Cheers guys
yes it is full configurable for each sub via the probabilitys both for inclusion at mission load and for the number and probability of contact reports--same allso goes for the wolfpack subs attached to the convoy it self---
one of the potentail nice touches for this will be that the shadowing sub will get you close to the convoy--
and as you get within the 3D loading range as serg' has said--
combat will begin--and fairly soon one way or another something will get sunk--either a sub or a ship--and bingo a sunken ship icon should appear on the map--either blue or red depending on who sunk who--bingo you now know where the convoy is---
so your entire location and attacking of a convoy is controlled and assisted by german u-boats--
if that does not appeal to folks i have absolutely NO IDEA why they are playing this game in the first place lol:lol: :hmm:
gouldjg
06-13-06, 02:24 PM
I like this very much and I also would prefer this type of convoy tracking than the already implemented one :rock:
Now without trying to go off topic here but could this not also open up the lifeboat mod serb has. Can they not be added to follow the same convoy as the Ai U-boat and then spawn some time later.
Even if at a very rare occurance probability:rock:
Hell AOTD vibe here!
I for sure would love to see this kind of mod! The only thing is; who's up for the task to do it! It's a Boot-load of work!
:yep:
bigboywooly
06-13-06, 02:43 PM
The lifeboats would look perfectly natural if the wolfpacks attcked a convoy as by the time you arrived its possible a ship has been sunk already
Cool idea
U-Bones
06-13-06, 02:44 PM
Yes, it is cool stuff, CB. Occupied with modding of new units, I have not gotten to work closer with the Mission Editor yet. I also wish Col7777 could continue with all his ideas on the wolfpack implementation in the campaign.
I guess one does not need to modify the RND layer directly. It should be possible to work with these things separately and then megde the files in the end.
cheers serg' cheers especailly again for your AI compatible subs:up:
i've been trying to find Col's thread detailing his experiments on actually adding your subs directly to convoys them selves--i know he said this actualy worked--he just added an AI wolfpack sub to the list of convoy ships--and bingo instant wolfpack action--
now then the reason this is such a good idea on top of using your subs for the contact reports--is that it exploits one of the drawbacks the game has to good effect--
in that no combat is modelled out side of the 3D loading range--so you can happily have a german sub cruising alongside a convoy for it's entire journey knowing that only when you the player are within range of the convoy and it has been loaded into the 3d engine--will any destroyers start to treat the wolfpack sub as a threat--
so this actually means that as you approach the convoy you are liable to start see-ing sunken ship icons on the map--and possibly find the odd ship on fire or damaged as it comes into visual range---
i can't find Col's thread where he gave an example of the correct way to addd the sub tho--and im getting a bit lazy in my old age--
BUT the combination of the two uses for your subs gives rise to a wonderfull new way to play the game not to mention the enourmous hike in gameplay realism potatoes or what ever folks fancy calling their intepretation of the game's implementation of realism
so all contact reports given only by genuine wolfpack/lone AI subs
100% realistic
and the possibility of finding other subs attacking the convoy as and when you approach
100% realistic
whoooooosh straight over the tonnage queens heads :arrgh!:
Wow - I would love to have a built in distraction for the escorts - might be just the ticket for the wicked new sensors hehe. Too bad mucking about with SCR and RND is non intuitive to me.
Hell AOTD vibe here!
I for sure would love to see this kind of mod! The only thing is; who's up for the task to do it! It's a Boot-load of work!
:yep:
well here we have the problem---the guys working on the uber duper super duper mods don't buy the sort of gameplay this mod produces--it's all a bit too esoteric and "airy fairy" for them--which is why i never ever use uber duper super mods--they bore me to tears--
i like the esoteric stuff--and my own version of the game often turns out to be far tougher difficulty wise than most realism mod sets, ironically--tho this is not deliberate--
but one thing is for sure i aint doing it...i'll be implementing it in my own campaign files but im not going to work on any one elses--you'll just have to canvas the producers of the uber duper super mods to see if you can get them to write it into their campaigns--
beyond that it isn't going to happen--that's the way the modding situation has developed for SH3---which is understandable in some ways because of the way the game stores it's settings in a few large files rather than lots of small ones ala SH2--catch 22 really
Vader 1
06-13-06, 10:16 PM
CB... as a fan of your work from the SH2 days , I think people might just be absorbing how this change in concept would affect the game as most know it. From my perspective SH3 has a least 4 differents type of play ( From stock game with a few visual mods to manual shooting only at night while having a red light only to light up your computer board and all parts inbetween lol) Give guys time:yep: ps your help with torpedo dud percentages has spawned a totally new SH2 game over at Atlantika thanks again:rock:
Vader
sergbuto
06-14-06, 12:50 AM
i've been trying to find Col's thread detailing his experiments on actually adding your subs directly to convoys them selves--i know he said this actualy worked--he just added an AI wolfpack sub to the list of convoy ships--and bingo instant wolfpack action--
now then the reason this is such a good idea on top of using your subs for the contact reports--is that it exploits one of the drawbacks the game has to good effect--
in that no combat is modelled out side of the 3D loading range--so you can happily have a german sub cruising alongside a convoy for it's entire journey knowing that only when you the player are within range of the convoy and it has been loaded into the 3d engine--will any destroyers start to treat the wolfpack sub as a threat--
.
.
.
i can't find Col's thread where he gave an example of the correct way to addd the sub tho--and im getting a bit lazy in my old age--
I guess that is the thread by Col7777 you meant
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=85169
I guess that is the thread by Col7777 you meant
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=85169
Cheers Serg' there's was another thread where he posts a test mission for it i can't find it i must admit..ive gone thru every thread you get when searching for Col7777:damn:
i'm not sure there's any mad hurry anyway..
I think people might just be absorbing how this change in concept would affect the game as most know it.
Cheers Vader...i'll remind you of that when this thread is long long dead and nowt ever came of it
i think it would be closer to the truth to say that it doesn't sound like their sort of thing--but with it being a potentail realism hike they can't quite suss out why they don't think it's their sort of thing..but it aint directly related to big explosions so they forget about it--
--me i don't care a hoot about realism--i just change the parts of the game that annoy me so they stop annoying me--
-did i do anything with dud percentages? sounds like Redwines territory-- i did make them less accurate to fool the auto TDC tho that what you mean? anyhuw good luck at Alantika-:up: -got a link?
Cheers Serg' there's was another thread where he posts a test mission for it i can't find it i must admit..ive gone thru every thread you get when searching for Col7777:damn:
i'm not sure there's any mad hurry anyway..
Is it maybe that mission??
I'm Home now CB,
This is using Serg's AI subs:
[Mission]
Title=Wolfpack3
MissionType=0
MissionDataType=0
Year=1941
Month=7
Day=7
Hour=7
Minute=0
Fog=0
FogRand=0
Clouds=1
CloudsRand=2
Precip=0
PrecipRand=0
WindHeading=40
WindSpeed=6.000000
WindRand=1
WeatherRndInterval=2
SeaType=0
Briefing=
[Group 1]
GroupName=Convoy
CommandUnitName=BR C3 Cargo#1
Category=0
RandStartRadius=0.000000
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
[Group 1.Unit 1]
Name=BR C3 Cargo#1
Class=C3Cargo
Type=102
Origin=British
Side=1
Commander=0
CargoExt=1
CargoInt=0
CfgDate=19400101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1230500.000000
Lat=6815500.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=90.000000
Speed=11.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
NextWP=0
[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 1]
Speed=12.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-1075000.000000
Lat=6815500.000000
Height=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 2]
Speed=12.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-969500.000000
Lat=6766500.000000
Height=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 3]
Speed=12.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-870120.000000
Lat=6689040.000000
Height=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 1.Waypoint 4]
Speed=12.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-807120.000000
Lat=6662040.000000
Height=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 2]
Name=BR C2 Cargo#1
Class=KLS
Type=102
Origin=British
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=1
CargoInt=0
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1233000.000000
Lat=6815500.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=90.000000
Speed=11.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 3]
Name=BR T2 Tanker#1
Class=OTMST2
Type=101
Origin=British
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=0
CargoInt=0
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451201
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1232000.000000
Lat=6816450.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=90.000000
Speed=11.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 4]
Name=BR T3 Tanker#1
Class=OTMS
Type=101
Origin=British
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=0
CargoInt=0
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1231950.000000
Lat=6814500.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=90.000000
Speed=11.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 5]
Name=BR Small Tanker#1
Class=OTSF
Type=101
Origin=British
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=0
CargoInt=0
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1234200.000000
Lat=6815500.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=90.000000
Speed=11.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 6]
Name=BR DD C Class#1
Class=DDCClass
Type=4
Origin=British
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1229100.000000
Lat=6815500.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=90.000000
Speed=11.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 7]
Name=BR CO Flower#1
Class=COFlower
Type=1
Origin=British
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390201
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1235340.000000
Lat=6815500.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=90.000000
Speed=11.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 8]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1228870.000000
Lat=6816630.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=230.000000
Speed=14.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 9]
Name=Type VIIA#2
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1228810.000000
Lat=6814470.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=310.000000
Speed=14.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 10]
Name=Type VIIA#3
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1231930.000000
Lat=6817370.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=140.000000
Speed=14.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 11]
Name=Type VIIA#4
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1232070.000000
Lat=6813770.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=30.000000
Speed=14.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 12]
Name=Type VIIA#5
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1229750.000000
Lat=6813890.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=340.000000
Speed=14.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Group 1.Unit 13]
Name=Type VIIA#6
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=0
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19400101
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19451231
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1230070.000000
Lat=6817010.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=210.000000
Speed=14.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=80
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
[Unit 1]
Name=Type IXB#1
Class=SSTypeIXB
Type=200
Origin=British
Side=0
Commander=1
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390401
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
GameEntryDate=19390415
GameEntryTime=0
GameExitDate=19440411
GameExitTime=0
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-1231900.000000
Lat=6815520.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=90.000000
Speed=12.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=10
ReportPosProbability=90
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
NextWP=0
[EditorParams]
InitLongOff=487620512.000000
InitLatOff=-88796496.000000
ZoomIndex=0
taken from here
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=86635&page=2&highlight=subs
Cheers Gammel that's the one!!!:yep:
dang i knew he'd written it in a complex fashion --
sergbuto
06-14-06, 04:32 AM
CB,
Note that this way of scripting (as in Col's example) can be used for the campign SCR layer. The RND layer scripting is different in style.
CB,
Note that this way of scripting (as in Col's example) can be used for the campign SCR layer. The RND layer scripting is different in style.
Cheers Serg' i think i'll just add on to the end of the stock convoys in the RND like this
[RndGroup 1720.RndUnit 2]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=2
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=10
CrewRating=4
here's the sort of information that can be built up over the length of a patrol by noting the reports from the subs as they come in---sadly i couldn't re-locate that convoy --so it slipped by --i'm running into bother with the coastal DD's and am low on fuel so no luck this patrol--:cool:
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf3.jpg
more subs more information --all very "high brow" stuff--apparantly:arrgh!:
this can simulate the increase/decrease in u-boot activity as the war progressed--the move to france etc--
and makes finding a lone merchant a more worth-while event especaily if you haven't located a convoy--
there are plenty of ways to ease the difficulty of this--allowing very rare contact reports from the convoys them selves (the red squares) would instantly show you which sub was closest to a convoy and allow you to choose that route to concentrate on--
tho most times where ever you see a sub report icon--a convoy will not be far away--travelling the same or very similar route (some of this is random of course as per normal) and at much the same speed--both sub and convoy having spawned into the game at more or less the same time---so it's not as scary as it sounds--and of course gets easier as you adapt to it--
a very VERY nice feel can be built up and the balance/difficulty/realism/gameplay is completely customisable to the individuals preferences--
one of things which i have added to my own game is air-support for the convoy escorts----so if i start to get hammered by air attacks more frequently than usual then i know a convoy is probably close by---another sort of realism again-aircraft would have covered the convoy routes specifically--rather than randomly
adding lone merchants use-ing the same method along the convoy routes- would simulate merchants who broke away from the convoy--either due to engine problems or getting nervous--and then finding a lone merchant might very well mean you are close to a convoy---another genuine head scratching moment--same with serg's life boats (as mentioned before- i dunno if the life boats work ok serg'?)
by reducing the number and frequency of the normal lone merchants this would add depth to finding one- especailly if it coincided with a sub report and was on a similar route--and so on--endless really--
genuine u-boot commander brain aches!!--or at least summat like 'em--
you could if you wanted too write a campaign with far less shipping than stock even (never mind the super mod campaigns) but with more depth when it came to the actual coal-face of gameplay--that's my thought anyway--and why i still more than satisfied with the stock number of convoys..this something i would consider releasing if i can work it thru--if as some folks have said they have more than one SH3 installation on their PC's then this version might hold some appeal to enough people to make it worth writting up as a seperate alternative mod--
****!:rock:
I makes my heart beat faster thinkin' of those possibilities.
Stiebler
06-14-06, 01:18 PM
As an experiment, I added one AI U-boat to the HX and SC convoys crossing the North Atlantic in 1940. This was in the NYGM TW 2.0 campaign_RND.mis file.
It is evident from the structure of the _RND files that the AI U-boats cannot make radio reports at all; it is the convoy as a whole that makes them. This was seen in practice, so no benefit in that respect at all. Neither can the speed of the AI sub be set. It has to keep up with the convoy.
After attacking these convoys with 'god's-eye view' enabled, it was evident each time (three attacks/three convoys) that there had been some pretty serious action behind each convoy. I never did get to see the AI sub (presumably sunk each time before I reached it), but one or two of the escorts showed battle damage each time, something I have never seen before when closing with a convoy. On one occasion, two escorts had suffered such damage that they could not keep up with the convoy, which was then making 10 kts. This meant that the convoy was virtually unguarded.
This will be less of a problem with later convoys, with larger escorts. I'm undecided about the benefit of this - maybe other people will have views.
However, if the idea is to provide U-boat radio messages on the map, it will be necessary to add them to the campaign_SCR.mis file on fixed paths that criss-cross the convoy routes and hope that convoys and AI U-boats reach the same spot at the same time. Even then, you will get only very rare reports (since intersections will be rare), which is unlikely to replace the more frequent radio reports from the convoy. These can be made as frequent as you wish, in the _RND.mis file.
What happened to the weather mod, by the way?
Stiebler.
sergbuto
06-14-06, 02:19 PM
It is evident from the structure of the _RND files that the AI U-boats cannot make radio reports at all; it is the convoy as a whole that makes them. This was seen in practice, so no benefit in that respect at all. Neither can the speed of the AI sub be set. It has to keep up with the convoy.
I guess CB.. can answer that since he was experimenting. But one can think of some tricks, such as f.e. having German AI U-boat as a leading vessel of the Allied convoy in the RND layer, which should produce contact reports with the blue sub icon.
After attacking these convoys with 'god's-eye view' enabled, it was evident each time (three attacks/three convoys) that there had been some pretty serious action behind each convoy. I never did get to see the AI sub (presumably sunk each time before I reached it), but one or two of the escorts showed battle damage each time, something I have never seen before when closing with a convoy. On one occasion, two escorts had suffered such damage that they could not keep up with the convoy, which was then making 10 kts. This meant that the convoy was virtually unguarded.
The action and its result will greatly depend on where the AI sub will be positioned in the convoy. I would guess, the effect will be the greatest for the sub being in the middle column and a bit more towards the front of the convoy. When the convoy is 3D-rendered, the speed of the sub will be about 3 knots slower than the speed of the convoy (I did not find out the reason why SH3 does that for my AI subs). For fast convoys the speed difference might be even greater due to limited submerged speed of the sub. The slower sub should introduce some sort of khaos in the convoy order due to ship-collision-avoidance routine and at the same time attack the ships directly in front of the sub.
EDIT: it is also necessary to make sure that the right SIM or EQP file is used for the AI-sub to attack (see the wolfpack-mod thread).
As an experiment, I added one AI U-boat to the HX and SC convoys crossing the North Atlantic in 1940. This was in the NYGM TW 2.0 campaign_RND.mis file.
It is evident from the structure of the _RND files that the AI U-boats cannot make radio reports at all; it is the convoy as a whole that makes them. This was seen in practice, so no benefit in that respect at all. Neither can the speed of the AI sub be set. It has to keep up with the convoy.
read the thread please --the subs attached to the convoys are NOT there to make contact reports ---thought that would have been pretty obvious --- it's this sort of useless back and forth that makes modding such a pain in the back side--the reason why you implemented it incorrectly is best left to your own judgement--granted doing it properly is a lot of work so perhaps it is understandable why you didn't do the job as illustrated in the thread--sides who cares? this is the modding forum..or at least it used to be ..i'm not entirely sure what it is now...a shop window i dunno...?
these cows are small ..those cows are far away..
what you are doing is the modding eqiuvilent of "heckling"..
sigh i'm not wasting my breath with that stuff any more--getting too old..your now on my ever growing ignore list..
step 1/ Serg's U-Boots help you build up your intelligence regarding current convoy routes--
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf4.jpg
step two/ be patient and patrol your chosen route ...and wait
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf5.jpg
step three...my Flottilla buddys have been attacking this convoy all night-
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf6.jpg
...
Thanks Serg' and Col7777...:ping: :yep:
Stiebler
06-15-06, 05:31 PM
I tried Sergbuto's suggestion of making the lead ship of a convoy instead an AI U-boat (actually convoy HX41; two convoy attacks, excluding attempts foiled by thick fog).
This indeed caused position reports on the map to be shown as blue (for German), but using the player's submarine icon (in my case, the default SH3 circle). The familiar square red marker had been temporarily replaced.
When my U-boat was close enough to force 3-D rendering of the convoy, in less than a minute (real time, at 128x tc) the blue circle was replaced with the square red convoy marker. Presumably this meant that the AI U-boat had been sunk.
Arriving closer with my U-boat (god's eye turned on), it became apparent that the front of the convoy was in slight disarray (as postulated by Sergbuto), and the escorts were again behind the convoy. One or more of the merchant ships had suffered damage, with flames/smoke on the merchants seen from the U-boat. However, again it was rather easy easy to attack the convoys, with the escorts departed from the convoy front.
This is certainly an interesting result, and it is not unrealistic for a U-boat to find a convoy temporarily unprotected while the escorts chase a different U-boat. I think this is probably worth following up as a permanent addition for convoys between July 1942 and May 1943.
It also proves that convoys do not attack enemy ships within their ranks until rendered in 3-D. This has often been stated, including in this thread, but I prefer proof to hearsay.
Stiebler.
sergbuto
06-16-06, 02:26 AM
step three...my Flottilla buddys have been attacking this convoy all night-
How did you do that? :up:
sergbuto
06-16-06, 02:45 AM
it is not unrealistic for a U-boat to find a convoy temporarily unprotected while the escorts chase a different U-boat.
The main idea behind the wolfpack creation/operation was getting rid of escorts which would go after one U-boat while other U-boats would attack unprotected convoy.
Extending CB's idea, one can have a wolfpack in the RND layer using convoy's waypoints in reverse order so that the wolfpack starts in Europe and moves towards the convoy until they meet each other half way or so. A player can be informed by means of some message about the start of the wolfpack operation and can keep an eye on the wolpack route due to contact reports. If the player decides to joint the wolfpack on its way to the convoy, he would not see wolfpack's subs because they are realisticaly submerged during daytime and not much can be seen at night anyway.
step three...my Flottilla buddys have been attacking this convoy all night-
How did you do that? :up:
he he!! was using my imagination a bit there--tho when i reached the convoy at least 5 ships had been damaged and were on fire (none had sunk tho) so it must have been a bit of a fight--i think the convoy had lost perhaps two escorts in the fight--
i suppose the actual battle didn't last more than 15 minutes real time tho i dunno it all happened before it got there--got to enjoy your self a bit with this stuff tho or what's the point!:sunny: :up:
course this has another side effect --it might mean that the escorts are in alert mode when you start your attack which makes up for some of the damage or loss they suffer during the wolf pack attack---i have added extra escorts to all my convoys so even the loss of two or three doesn't leave the convoy undefended--
this is with the two subs placed at the rear of the convoy--allowing them to fire immediately on the ships in front of them as it goes live--you could disadvantage them and give the escorts a better chance at them by positioning them as escort=true..which would place them at a distance from the convoy--you might be able to have more susb this way and the possibility of one or two being still active when you reach the convoy (if your quick)...
like the idea of having the wolfpack start at opposite ends of the convoy route and working out where the convoy and pack might meet--as you say :up: you could then choose to rendevous with them on route and actually get involved in the wolfpack your self--all attacking at once--
lots of quite complex ways to use this--be nice to stumble across an AI sub attacking a lone merchant--sooner or later with them prowling the shipping lanes this is going to happen ---
the previous patrol i found the convoy -and the subs i think had lagged behind and were still being attacked by a couple of escorts--right on the horizon i could see star shells being launched tho i couldn't see the subs on the ship camera----no convoy vessels had been damaged -- so it is fairly unpredictable--- once you start to add the subs the whole thing begins to take on a life of it's own--which i like --
playing with the probability ratios for inclusion in the convoys--numbers and frequency of contact reports etc etc allows for a nice balance to be built up--tho getting it "just so" would take a lot of practice--
you could edit all the patrol zone allocations to co-incide with your wolfpack routes to provide the correct set up for the patrols--
i'm only using three shadowing subs one one each of the most regular cross atlantic routes and one on the med route and the map is crammed full of information--- cover all 8 or 9 of the main routes and a few of the lone merchant routes and pretty soon you have a map that is alive with genuine feedback from german subs--the potentail is endless--:rock:
gouldjg
06-16-06, 04:13 AM
CB,
I love the fact that there may be a more alert DD/DE as a side effect. I can imagine when people start to use Long repair times and then hit one of these convoys knowing that the DD/DE are peed off already, some may just chicken out :rotfl: tucking their tails between their legs.
The D.I.D. players will surely have to think twice. :yep: :yep: :yep:
It seems like there is a lot of new stuff being found lately and new methods of exploiting the existing game.
It is all starting to look very promising.
Thanks for putting the hours in on this:up:
Now here is a quicky question for you or serb,
Is there anyway to get a short timed decoys/anumbolds attached to the front or sides of other convoys that is set to just awaken the DD/DE a little as they come into 3d view and it makes the DD look like they are thinking instead of just plodding along.
They only need to last long enough to wake them into seeking mode.
A mixture of the two will just be fantastic if possible.
i reckon it might be possible to have something launch a bold but bit technical getting that to work--i dont know if serg could replace the gun on some of the wolfpack subs with a bold launcher--that would be interesting if do-able--then the subs might create lots of unpredictable scenarios--or use a couple of wolfpack subs with no weapons on them and low hit points so they can easily be sunk--just to wake the escorts up
in the patrol i showed in the screenshots the escorts had their search lights on when i arrived so even as t is is it works well--you'd never know during the day time of course so you would be very un certain as to what sort of situation you were walking into--
i like the idea of a wolfpack sub that launches a bold especailly if a special bold can be made with a 15 minute life span--
gouldjg
06-16-06, 04:29 AM
It is too technical for me but I just thought of it as a option for other convoys that are not wolfpacked.
Maybe its a no no or infact there is a easier method with similar results is right under our noses. I just thought I would throw an idea in.
I have 0% experience of editing convoys etc so I will leave that to the pro's. What I do know is that a alert DD is far harder to slip past than a docile DD.
Just reading your thread and the idea of subs with no weapons and low hitpoints would probably produce the same result:up:
It is too technical for me but I just thought of it as a option for other convoys that are not wolfpacked.
Maybe its a no no or infact there is a easier method with similar results is right under our noses. I just thought I would throw an idea in.
I have 0% experience of editing convoys etc so I will leave that to the pro's. What I do know is that a alert DD is far harder to slip past than a docile DD.
the easiest answer would be to add a wolfpack sub with no weapons--
that would do the same job without risking the loss of any DD's
you'll get alert DD's as you approach
gouldjg
06-16-06, 04:37 AM
Agree 100%
if you wrote it in something like this perhaps--
[RndGroup 172.RndUnit 22]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=2
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=10;<<=random probability
CrewRating=4
[RndGroup 172.RndUnit 23]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIAnw ;<<= the no weapons sub-
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=2
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=10
CrewRating=4
[RndGroup 172.RndUnit 24]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=2
Escort=True ;<<= positioned as an escort
SpawnProbability=10
CrewRating=4
[RndGroup 172.RndUnit 25]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIAnw ;<<= the no weapons sub-
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=2
Escort=True ;<<== positioned as an escort
SpawnProbability=10
CrewRating=4
etc etc
then you would never know what was going to happen
here i am following a med convoy route as reported in by the subs
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf7.jpg
i had spent a week patroling the route to the NE of my position when this new sub contact appeared on slightly different route out of the Med--so i switched to this new contact..and followed it slowly..
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf8.jpg
occasionaly back tracking to check behind me for contacts..then catching the sub up again---no luck so far--getting a little low on fuel..
then...
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf9.jpg
right here i get the FPS drop to 3 FPS that is such a give away...
i have less than 10 pecent fuel left....
but dang it---the convoy slips past me ..perhaps even travelling on the original route to my east..i run a search pattern but no luck---out of fuel.
he he!! uber patroling realism..right down to the fine details..more or less any way!
U-Bones
06-16-06, 09:34 AM
It is too technical for me but I just thought of it as a option for other convoys that are not wolfpacked.
Maybe its a no no or infact there is a easier method with similar results is right under our noses. I just thought I would throw an idea in.
I have 0% experience of editing convoys etc so I will leave that to the pro's. What I do know is that a alert DD is far harder to slip past than a docile DD.
the easiest answer would be to add a wolfpack sub with no weapons--
that would do the same job without risking the loss of any DD's
you'll get alert DD's as you approach
Or lightly armed, so you still get the occasional wounded.
Edit: Somehow, I missed the randomization above - which is prabably a better answer. Carry on.
sergbuto
06-16-06, 12:59 PM
i suppose the actual battle didn't last more than 15 minutes real time tho i dunno it all happened before it got there--
this is with the two subs placed at the rear of the convoy--allowing them to fire immediately on the ships in front of them as it goes live--you could disadvantage them and give the escorts a better chance at them by positioning them as escort=true..which would place them at a distance from the convoy--you might be able to have more susb this way and the possibility of one or two being still active when you reach the convoy (if your quick)...
I have reduced durability/survivability of AI-subs so that escorts can sink them within two DC-ing approaches and they can not survive as long as player subs.
bigboywooly
06-16-06, 01:08 PM
i suppose the actual battle didn't last more than 15 minutes real time tho i dunno it all happened before it got there--
this is with the two subs placed at the rear of the convoy--allowing them to fire immediately on the ships in front of them as it goes live--you could disadvantage them and give the escorts a better chance at them by positioning them as escort=true..which would place them at a distance from the convoy--you might be able to have more susb this way and the possibility of one or two being still active when you reach the convoy (if your quick)...
I have reduced durability/survivability of AI-subs so that escorts can sink them within two DC-ing approaches and they can not survive as long as player subs.
Serg
I know it may be difficult but what if you could make your lifeboat into a ship unit and attach one to a convoy the AI subs are in?:hmm:
That way when your sub arrives at convoy you may see lifeboats as AI could have already sunk a ship or two
Well have thrown it in now hope you dont throw it out :rotfl:
EDIT
That way too you could be really nasty and flak gun the lifeboats as they would be a unit
But you could also give them a - renown as a hospital ship
sergbuto
06-16-06, 01:17 PM
gouldjg,
Unfortunately, AI-subs can not use bold or similar stuff except for guns and I am not sure whether it is possible to make guns firing bold.
On the other hand, it should be no problem to use lifeboats along with AI U-boats in a convoy. After 3d-rendering they will be left behind with their zero speed.
sergbuto
06-16-06, 01:31 PM
Serg
I know it may be difficult but what if you could make your lifeboat into a ship unit and attach one to a convoy the AI subs are in?:hmm:
It is not difficult. I already have one made long time ago. Although, I did not bother to fix its damage model at that time because it was used in multiplayer missions for purposes not requiring that. But I can relatively easy fix that nowdays.
bigboywooly
06-16-06, 02:06 PM
On the other hand, it should be no problem to use lifeboats along with AI U-boats in a convoy. After 3d-rendering they will be left behind with their zero speed.
:hmm: the trouble with zero speed is the convoy will "exist" before we even see it -- as soon as we are within a certain distance -- and if lifeboat has 0 speed it might be miles behind the convoy when we actually get there
I think ???
:rotfl:
sergbuto
06-16-06, 02:20 PM
If lifeboat is in front of the convoy, it will take some time for the convoy, loosing its order, to get around the lifeboat and restore the order.
bigboywooly
06-16-06, 02:28 PM
If lifeboat is in front of the convoy, it will take some time for the convoy, loosing its order, to get around the lifeboat and restore the order.
Great idea :up:
Why didnt I think of that :damn:
gouldjg
06-16-06, 02:58 PM
I would love to see this feature. It all goes into my brain nice and easy and I have no problems what so ever believing the situation.
It is just great to have the chances to come across things that were a possibility in that time.
I always remember the first time I came across an air attack on surface ships. Man, I could not even play the game, as I was so busy gaping at the battle from peri.
bigboywooly
06-16-06, 03:10 PM
I would love to see this feature. It all goes into my brain nice and easy and I have no problems what so ever believing the situation.
It is just great to have the chances to come across things that were a possibility in that time.
I always remember the first time I came across an air attack on surface ships. Man, I could not even play the game, as I was so busy gaping at the battle from peri.
LOL should be able to work - the only trouble is there are so many varients of the .scr layer out there it would be impossible to do them all so we may have to add them to our own. as long as there is a set formula it should be easy
A little OT but know how you feel - came across 2 type 36a and type 34 in one of the AM grids - sailed with them for a while and as I sailed off spotted a Brit C class destroyer steaming towards them:o
Had to just watch as they all engaged each other
And this was in a normal patrol:up:
course the additional issue is that for it to work correctly and effectively you need to add the subs to the RND layer to allow them to take on the same random waypoints etc as the convoys--
and there are dozens of custom RND layers around---
here's mine--
as a concept test--
it's fairly close to stock with some minor tweaks and of course the wolfpack / sub reports additons
see the read me for details ..
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolfrnd1.zip
if for any reason this doesn't run/load--then it may be i have some non stock ship or some thing else lurking in there i have forgotten about---if so then use it as a reference to get the wolkfpack routes --they are last in the file...
this is just a loose concept test--havent added all the routes or all the possible features--just the most regular cross atlantic routes
i really am enjoying this stuff...makes a world of difference..it's probably a bit dull for the majority of player tho--(??)
it occurs to me that this approach would work very well for users of SH3Gen...as they could use the intel reports given to narrow down the best route to patrol--- but even as it stands sooner or later you will find a convoy if you patrol the main routes--
sit down with a mug of tea and wait--
Many thanks for sharing your work, CB! :up:
If all the changes you made are at the end of the campaign file it should be not a problem for most players to add them to their custom campaign file.
YouŽll just have to change group numbers...
Many thanks for sharing your work, CB! :up:
If all the changes you made are at the end of the campaign file it should be not a problem for most players to add them to their custom campaign file.
YouŽll just have to change group numbers...
Cheers...yup that's the best i can do really--folks will still have to go thru their canvoys and add the attacking wolfpack subs but thats not quite such a huge job--(tediuos but straight cut n paste work)
just add this at the end of each convoy getting the group unit number right each time as you say:yep:
[RndGroup 61.RndUnit 18]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=2
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=4
if you add it to all the convoys then reducing spawnprobability will be a good idea to add variety-
the only other thing i have done is remove any possibility of the convoys them selves giving contact reports---so you have to rely entirely on the subs for info--
but that is probably something that would be best left to personal taste--
VonHelsching
06-17-06, 07:06 AM
Thanks, CB..
I'll add them up to a beefed up custom .rnd I have and I'll test them. Cheers and keep up those great ideas coming :rock:
absolutely fascinating----i love the picture that builds slowly over a patrol---
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf11.jpg
sergbuto
06-18-06, 02:02 PM
Really feels that you are not the only U-boat fighting this war. :D
HEMISENT
06-18-06, 03:39 PM
CB-Help!
Need some advice. I attempted plugging in your Campaign_Rnd from the DL as is but it crashed as you predicted it might.
I then located and copied each complete VIIA entry from your file and pasted to the end of the relevant [RndGroup] changing the ReportPosProbability= to "0"
see sample of first loaded Rnd Group below.
[RndGroup 61]
GroupName=HX39Convoy
Category=0
CommandEntry=0
Long=-7617918.000000
Lat=5345865.000000
Height=0.000000
DelayMin=60
DelayMinInterv=7860
SpawnProbability=95
RandStartRadius=1.000000
ReportPosMin=600
ReportPosProbability=0
Heading=138.606003
Speed=6.000000
ColumnsNo=4
Spacing=700
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
CurrentInstanceID=0
GameEntryDate=19390803
GameEntryTime=200
GameExitDate=19391229
GameExitTime=0
NextWP=0
[RndGroup 61.RndUnit 1 thru 17]
[RndGroup 61.RndUnit 18]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=2
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=4
I then went into data/cfg /contacts.cfg and changed the
"Display Range To Opportunity Radio Contacts=33000" per your instructions.
"reccommend increasing your opportunity contact report range greatly to take advantage of the GERMAN only "contact" reports
this is found in data/cfg contacts.cfg"
Is there a difference? GERMAN vs ALLIES If so where? I saw nothing to diiferentiate
Started a campaign mission and was immediately swamped with multiple red squares all over the map along with the normal convoy reports text messages.
No blue sub icons visible. How do I get rid of the red squares and get the sub icons as in your screen shots?
I'm pretty sure the VIIa's are running but what am I doing wrong here.
This will be awesome once I get the bugs worked out
Started a campaign mission and was immediately swamped with multiple red squares all over the map along with the normal convoy reports text messages.
No blue sub icons visible. How do I get rid of the red squares and get the sub icons as in your screen shots?
I'm pretty sure the VIIa's are running but what am I doing wrong here.
This will be awesome once I get the bugs worked out
if your using a custom campaign then some have added literally dozens of new convoys to the SCR layer-- so you will be recieve-ing contact reports from the convoys in that layer--
yes it is a tedious job to get rid of the allied contact reports--
you could use the search and replace function in wordpad to replace
ReportPosMin=
with
ReportPosMin=-
(note the minus sign)
this will kill ALL the contact reports for everything
then you will have to find all the patroling subs you've added
(you have added the patroling subs i hope?)
and switch the contact reports back on for them only--then you have only "contact" reports from the german subs--
you have to add the patroling subs to get the sub contact reports--
tho they are really reporting the convoy routes rather than their postions-it's up to you to patrol along the routes plotted out by the subs and find the convoys--
to find the patroling subs in the rnd file you downloaded scroll to the very end of the file or do a search for Wolf
//////////////////////////
Sergbuto!! yep it makes for really atmospheric patrols--:up:
HEMISENT
06-18-06, 08:59 PM
if your using a custom campaign then some have added literally dozens of new convoys to the SCR layer-- so you will be recieve-ing contact reports from the convoys in that layer--
Using NYGMv2 so I assume there's additions based on the RUB work
yes it is a tedious job to get rid of the allied contact reports--
you could use the search and replace function in wordpad to replace
ReportPosMin=
with
ReportPosMin=-
(note the minus sign)
this will kill ALL the contact reports for everything
Just did that with the RND file
then you will have to find all the patroling subs you've added
(you have added the patroling subs i hope?)and switch the contact reports back on for them only--then you have only "contact" reports from the german subs--
you have to add the patroling subs to get the sub contact reports--
tho they are really reporting the convoy routes rather than their postions-it's up to you to patrol along the routes plotted out by the subs and find the convoys--
I think this was the problem, all I originally replaced were the "attached" VIIA's
at the end of the convoys from your example-never thought to look for patrolling subs at the end-I just added them and re-numbered them to fit the sequence. Just put it all back together and started a fresh campaign mission. Will let you know how it turns out.
I think this was the problem, all I originally replaced were the "attached" VIIA's
at the end of the convoys from your example-never thought to look for patrolling subs at the end-I just added them and re-numbered them to fit the sequence. Just put it all back together and started a fresh campaign mission. Will let you know how it turns out.
your gonna have to read the thread thru and thru again H' ..and do a bit of thinking..if you going to have any success adapting this to NYGM or any other major campaign mod--
another fascinating patrol--
didn't find a convoy but picked off a couple of lone merchants travelling near the routes--and one as i was using the Mediterean route as a marker for the trip home--
occurs to me that i could add the hunter killer groups in the same way--travelling along the convoy routes in the same way as the patroling u-boats--would make sense--the more you play like this the more things start to suggest them selves--and it all seems perfectly logical--
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf12.jpg
bigboywooly
06-19-06, 09:58 AM
Yes in RL the hunter killer groups would be somewhere halfway between 2 convoys along the same route to take over DC duty allowing the escorts to return to convoy so in theory you could add them
Looks like its getting bigger every day:o
Yes in RL the hunter killer groups would be somewhere halfway between 2 convoys along the same route to take over DC duty allowing the escorts to return to convoy so in theory you could add them
Looks like its getting bigger every day:o
:up: seems a better idea than having them wandering "more or less" at random around the map--- i'm allso tempted to have a look at the aircraft allso--
i haven't tried adding aircraft with specified routes in SH3--i'm guessing it will work--giving aircraft the same job of patroling the convoy routes will enable me to specify what type and how many aircraft are likely to be encountered--and help ensure that any patrol along the routes is liable to have it's surprises no matter wether you locate a convoy or not--if it works well i might reduce the number of spawned aircraft to balance it out allso perhaps pop in a few lone destroyers allso to allow for escorts refueling/re-arming/repairing and catching up or leaving a convoy...
add ing in a few more lone merchants with the wolfpack "escort" attached will allso create some interesting moments --finding a lone merchant being attacked or on fire with the u-boot still in the vincinity (no escorts to kill them) will be a nice touch--
some-day all campaigns will be made this way :ping:
plenty of scope for escorts coming and going along the routes---
read this sort of thing a lot so it might even be considered un-usual not to meet escorts along the routes at some point
(these were not Hunter Killer groups but escorts refueling re-arming and relieving other escorts who then them selves would return to their home ports for refueling etc--so it's applicable right thru out the war..)
On one occasion two of us made a lone crossing of the Atlantic to eventually pick up a convoy from New York, HMS Porchester Castle and HMS Kenilworth Castle set sail from Londonderry to the lease lend American base in Argentia Newfoundland. The weather on the way over was atrocious, we were lucky as it was behind us and not ahead which enabled us to make good time.
The Americans in the base at Argentia were very efficient and as soon as we arrived squads of American ratings arrived on board looking for repair lists and our fuel requirements.
My other abiding memory of Argentia was the freezing cold, it was so cold it was forbidden for us to go ashore without being conveyed in a base vehicle. After several days we sailed to pick up our convoy, the weather was now foggy and the Radar was invaluable, after a days sailing we picked up the convoy, still in dense fog, we identified ourselves, took up our stations , relieved the American and Canadian escorts and never saw them, due to the miracle of Radar.
http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?uri=%2Fww2peopleswar%2Findex.shtml&q=atlantic%2Bww2&x=20&y=15
EDIT;
decided the quickest way to simulate this and focus the campaign on the convoy routes would be to move some of the stock hunter killer groups onto the main convoy routes---with some reduction in probable numbers of escorts in the group--
so i just altered the waypoints of the first three british killer groups in the RND file (which appear in early 1942) so they now travel the HX OA and HG convoy routes till the end of the war--no point adding huge numbers of ships to the campaign, when using the ones allready there in a more resource friendly fashion not only simulates "better" tactical use of available warships- it allso means the campaign doesn't load like a snail crawling across your desk lol--
the RN didn't have an unlimited number of ships --no idea why most of the hunter killer groups are wandering around in the middle of no-where more or less--after all if the U-Boats are NOT along the convoy routes then they are not a danger anyway so why waste resources trying to find them.. ACK!!!
Coastal Command and the RAF can do the searching in the transition zones
HEMISENT
06-22-06, 06:40 AM
I've added attached AI subs to all the convoys in the NYGM rnd file and I guess it's time to start attaching the "wolfpack" subs to patrol the convoy routes. Using the paper map supplied with the game gives the long/lat around the outside perimeter. Question I have is how do I convert the numeric value as in the sample below to actual longitude/latitude that I can referance on the map. Would be nice to see what area I'm actually working in.
[RndGroup 1896]
GroupName=HX39Wolf
Category=0
CommandEntry=0
Long=-7617918.000000
Lat=5345865.000000
I've added attached AI subs to all the convoys in the NYGM rnd file and I guess it's time to start attaching the "wolfpack" subs to patrol the convoy routes. Using the paper map supplied with the game gives the long/lat around the outside perimeter. Question I have is how do I convert the numeric value as in the sample below to actual longitude/latitude that I can referance on the map. Would be nice to see what area I'm actually working in.
[RndGroup 1896]
GroupName=HX39Wolf
Category=0
CommandEntry=0
Long=-7617918.000000
Lat=5345865.000000
what you do is this H'
find the convoy that you want the patroling subs to "shadow"
copy it -waypoints and all- from the RND file into a new wordpad document
then replace the ships with the subs and sort out the RndGroup and RndWaypoint numbers accordingly for the new group
like thus
[RndGroup 1718]
GroupName=HX39Wolf
Category=0
CommandEntry=0
Long=-7617918.000000
Lat=5345865.000000
Height=0.00000
DelayMin=60
DelayMinInterv=7860
SpawnProbability=100
RandStartRadius=1.000000
ReportPosMin=600
ReportPosProbability=60
Heading=138.606003
Speed=9.000000
ColumnsNo=2
Spacing=700
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=true
CurrentInstanceID=0
GameEntryDate=19390803
GameEntryTime=200
GameExitDate=19421229
GameExitTime=0
NextWP=0
[RndGroup 1718.RndUnit 1]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=1
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=4
[RndGroup 1718.RndUnit 2]
Name=Type VIIA#1
Class=SSTypeVIIA
Type=200
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19390101
No=1
Escort=false
SpawnProbability=100
CrewRating=4
[RndGroup 1718.Waypoint 1]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=50.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-7358918.000000
Lat=5052065.000000
Height=0.000000
[RndGroup 1718.Waypoint 2]
Speed=9.000000
Radius=100.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-6792918.000000
Lat=5124065.000000
Height=0.000000
etc etc etc
the reason this is the best way to go with a custom campaign (any campaign in fact) is just that they may have altered the routes from the stock ones even slightly and it makes it impossible to find the convoys (except by accident)-
you need the patroling subs to give you accurate information (within the random limitations) so you can draw the routes onto the map- and patrol the routes your self--
you don't need to add too many before the map starts to come alive with a constant flow of up-dating sub "reports"....
you will need the patroling routes to up-date on the same dates as the convoys if you want to keep them accurate--so choose the main routes such as the HX one and do all the HX39 HX40 etc etc routes seperately to keep thing accurate and dynamic as the time goes by--
the paper map show the seven or eight main routes that would be ideal to select (the rest you can add if you want more reports and a greater variety choice of patrol zones)
it doesn't take many before your map starts to look like this
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf13.jpg
here i am chasing my luck with three routes down towards the Azores (i'm just about to get killed by a catalina here -so my luck ran out lol)
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf14.jpg
it's highly dynamic and nothings garantued---all you can say is that as you have used the same information for the patroling subs as was used by the convoy itself- there is a good chance that your going to be some-where close if you stick to these routes and work out a search pattern..
course there's nothing to stop you adding in a few contact reports from convoys if you get too much bad luck too often--but it does work out over several patrols--you'll be finding them easily one patrol --the next you can't pin them down for love nor money---great dynamics:up:
determined to catch one of these Azores convoys, so i reloaded the previous in base save and went back to the bone yard...still no luck on the convoys ..but picking off lone merchants who are wandering around the area---plenty to be working on tho..stay where i am or try a different route?..go north ? south? etc etc..
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolf15.jpg
going to hit lucky soon here tho--the Northerm atlantic routes have a much higher probability of hitting a convoy--but want to see if there's a "knack" to finding convoys with this set up--so i'm going for the less well travelled routes to practice..
HEMISENT
06-22-06, 04:56 PM
Thanks CB
I'm starting to add the patrolling subs tonight.
Why is it that you just did the rnd. files but left the scr. files alone-what's the difference? As you can probably tell this is my first experience with tinkering with either but your idea has so much merit I can't pass it up.
Thanks CB
I'm starting to add the patrolling subs tonight.
Why is it that you just did the rnd. files but left the scr. files alone-what's the difference? As you can probably tell this is my first experience with tinkering with either but your idea has so much merit I can't pass it up.:up: Cheers H'
the reason i'm working on the RND layer rather than the SCR - is really because my campaign is (apart from all this stuff) basically as stock--so all the main convoys are in the RND layer--(im not even sure if there are any convoys in the SCR as stock? dunno) the other reason is that i haven't tried working on the RND layer before so like you wasn't sure if there was any difference between the RND and SCR layer---seemed best to work on the RND layer just in case theyre was--:D :up:
i'm hoping to learn a few things as i go along so i can refine the idea...
i wish there was a
MaxDelayInterv
to go along with the
DelayMin=60
DelayMinInterv=7860
that way you could set some of the convoys and subs to spawn at tthe more or less exactly the same moment and this would mean that some of the sub reports would genuinely be "shadows" rather than route intelligence--tho the good things about the patroling subs is that they are doing the same thing as you---if you find a convoy along a route and it has no wolfpack attached to it--but one of the patroling subs turns up then it will attempt to attack at the same time as you--so it is dynamic--
if over time you find it is just too difficult to find convoys then you can simply increase the spawn rate fro the convoys and this will create more convoys travelling the routes---i have done four patrols at the azores and not so far located one convoy--tho i did find a Med/UK convoy on the way home once---so i might step up the frequency of the azores routes to balance the gameplay a little--but my money is on the fact that after a while you might get a bit of hunch as to where to hunt for the best results--
i know where to fiind the lone merchants now which is new!!
HEMISENT
06-22-06, 06:05 PM
i'm hoping to learn a few things as i go along so i can refine the idea...
i wish there was a
MaxDelayInterv
to go along with the
DelayMin=60
DelayMinInterv=7860
Ok, a stupid question (probably more to come)keep in mind I'm new at this, but what do these numbers mean?
that way you could set some of the convoys and subs to spawn at tthe more or less exactly the same moment and this would mean that some of the sub reports would genuinely be "shadows" rather than route intelligence--tho the good things about the patroling subs is that they are doing the same thing as you---if you find a convoy along a route and it has no wolfpack attached to it--but one of the patroling subs turns up then it will attempt to attack at the same time as you--so it is dynamic--
Here's something to consider which I knew but just discovered how they did it. In NYGM convoy speeds are no longer the same speed for the entire route. There are numerous additional waypoints changing speeds by 1 or 2 knots + or - at each one. This makes locating a convoy a bit more difficult (I really like this feature) but now there are two schools of thought.
1. Match the exact same convoy speed along the entire route and "shadow?" the convoy.
2. Set AI sub speed at a standard 9 kts for all waypoints and potentially catching up to and overtaking the convoy.
Any thoughts?
Since I haven't heard from anyone else on this thread doing this with NYGM yet I guess I'm flying a bit blind here.
Ok, a stupid question (probably more to come)keep in mind I'm new at this, but what do these numbers mean?
Here's something to consider which I knew but just discovered how they did it. In NYGM convoy speeds are no longer the same speed for the entire route. There are numerous additional waypoints changing speeds by 1 or 2 knots + or - at each one. This makes locating a convoy a bit more difficult (I really like this feature) but now there are two schools of thought.
1. Match the exact same convoy speed along the entire route and "shadow?" the convoy.
2. Set AI sub speed at a standard 9 kts for all waypoints and potentially catching up to and overtaking the convoy.
Any thoughts?
Since I haven't heard from anyone else on this thread doing this with NYGM yet I guess I'm flying a bit blind here.
the delay is the delay before the convoy ship sub etc spawns into the game --minimum time before etc..
same with the interval --minimum amount of time before it spawns again..AFAIK
as far as the speed of the convoy goes---and the patroling subs---i dont think it is that critical--up to you--
it makes life quicker and easier to take the info straight from the convoy waypoints--
bigboywooly
06-24-06, 02:30 PM
Yes in RL the hunter killer groups would be somewhere halfway between 2 convoys along the same route to take over DC duty allowing the escorts to return to convoy so in theory you could add them
Looks like its getting bigger every day:o
:up: seems a better idea than having them wandering "more or less" at random around the map--- i'm allso tempted to have a look at the aircraft allso--
i haven't tried adding aircraft with specified routes in SH3--i'm guessing it will work--giving aircraft the same job of patroling the convoy routes will enable me to specify what type and how many aircraft are likely to be encountered--and help ensure that any patrol along the routes is liable to have it's surprises no matter wether you locate a convoy or not--if it works well i might reduce the number of spawned aircraft to balance it out allso perhaps pop in a few lone destroyers allso to allow for escorts refueling/re-arming/repairing and catching up or leaving a convoy...
add ing in a few more lone merchants with the wolfpack "escort" attached will allso create some interesting moments --finding a lone merchant being attacked or on fire with the u-boot still in the vincinity (no escorts to kill them) will be a nice touch--
some-day all campaigns will be made this way :ping:
Bit of an eye opener as regards to escorts/hunter killer groups
SEPTEMBER 1942
Atlantic
Russian Convoy PQ18 - PQ18 leaves Loch Ewe in Scotland on the 2nd with over 40 merchantmen. Close escort is provided by 17 warships plus escort carrier "Avenger" and two destroyers. Two separate forces are in support - close cover is given by AA cruiser "Scylla" and 16 fleet destroyers and further out three heavy cruisers. More distant cover is by battleships "Anson" and "Duke of York", a light cruiser and destroyers to the northeast of Iceland. Home Fleet submarines are on patrol off the Norwegian Lofoten Islands and northern Norway. Of the original 40 ships, 27 reach Archangel on the 17th in exchange for three U-boats.:o
Bit of an eye opener as regards to escorts/hunter killer groups
SEPTEMBER 1942
Atlantic
Russian Convoy PQ18 - PQ18 leaves Loch Ewe in Scotland on the 2nd with over 40 merchantmen. Close escort is provided by 17 warships plus escort carrier "Avenger" and two destroyers. Two separate forces are in support - close cover is given by AA cruiser "Scylla" and 16 fleet destroyers and further out three heavy cruisers. More distant cover is by battleships "Anson" and "Duke of York", a light cruiser and destroyers to the northeast of Iceland. Home Fleet submarines are on patrol off the Norwegian Lofoten Islands and northern Norway. Of the original 40 ships, 27 reach Archangel on the 17th in exchange for three U-boats.:o
Yup i have a book called
"From Africa To the Arctic
A Year on The destroyer HMS Beagle during WWII"
By Peter Ward
(Leading Seaman on board)
in which he details all the ships on the Arctic convoys- names numbers types etc--huge numbers of Destroyers--sometimes TWO escort carriers, cruisers the whole mile and a half--massive convoys- massively escorted/defended-:yep: :up:
HEMISENT
06-26-06, 11:44 AM
CB
An update for you. I have been able to successfully add quite a few patrolling wolfpacks(40+) into NYGMv2 Campaign rnd file. Had to clear up a bit of a problem with the rnd file being out of sequence but right now I'm in my first campaign mission in 42 and I've got patrolling U Boats giving me their position reports as expected. I'm now attempting to chase the nearest one down.
I can see already that I need to fine tune the probability of reports. I've actually got too many popping up all over....but that's an easy fix I think.
At least the darn thing works.
CB
An update for you. I have been able to successfully add quite a few patrolling wolfpacks(40+) into NYGMv2 Campaign rnd file. Had to clear up a bit of a problem with the rnd file being out of sequence but right now I'm in my first campaign mission in 42 and I've got patrolling U Boats giving me their position reports as expected. I'm now attempting to chase the nearest one down.
I can see already that I need to fine tune the probability of reports. I've actually got too many popping up all over....but that's an easy fix I think.
At least the darn thing works.
Good news!!
after a while you stop noticing all the reports and just concentrate on the ones that your most interested in--they're were a good number of boats at sea usually as the war went on so it might be more or less realistic to have a lot of reports--
you can drastically reduce the number of reports you see on the map by cutting down your
Display Range To Opportunity Radio Contacts
in the contacts cfg:up:
this way you only get those that are within a set distance of you--which if you have a lot will easily balance it out--making it a good thing rather than a distracting thing--
HEMISENT
06-26-06, 04:23 PM
Thanks CB, I'll give that a shot. I did manage to finally intercept a convoy
and they were already zig-zagging. The DE's were also on heightened alert so I guess the attached AI subs actually did make a showing. I saw no battle damage on any ships indicating that they did nothing but die a fast and furious death for the Fatherland. Oh well maybe next time.
The mod works great-Thanks
Now what about those weather fronts you mentioned earlier moving as a group?
Thanks CB, I'll give that a shot. I did manage to finally intercept a convoy
and they were already zig-zagging. The DE's were also on heightened alert so I guess the attached AI subs actually did make a showing. I saw no battle damage on any ships indicating that they did nothing but die a fast and furious death for the Fatherland. Oh well maybe next time.
The mod works great-Thanks
Now what about those weather fronts you mentioned earlier moving as a group?
he he! dunno wether the weather can be made even half as effective as it was capable of in SH2 (definitely a 200% step backwards) --but there may be summat that can be done to jazz it up a bit-- i havent really worked on it yet--tho there is a small edit that can be done to make the changes a bit more lively--
probably well heeled allready but
in the RND
this entry
CloudsRand=2
noticed in the editor that there are slight cloud changes and heavy cloud changes which i interpret to mean that the weather will change much more noticably--half the issue with the weather changes is that most of the changes are barely noticable in game---those weeks spent in constant storm folks get --are not weeks of constant storm--the weather is changing all the time--it's just that what change is perhaps a slight decrease in wind speed---or a slight change in visability--etc etc--been checking this for ages--it's true--im thinking that telling to game to skip slight changes for heavy changes you're much more likely to get a change from strom to calm or noticably different weather--and it works--so ther's summat---(mind you probably very old news?)
ive been wrestling with Pack3D the last few days tho and have managed to come up a playable brit sub -"H.M.S Badly textured" so that's been occupying me head
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/edit4.jpg
:arrgh!:
mikaelanderlund
07-25-06, 04:21 PM
Hi,
Any news? Are we going to see wolfpacks in next GW or NYGM release?
Mikael
John Pancoast
03-06-20, 07:18 PM
Been using this idea, pretty cool. Worth a shot if you haven't tried it already.
FUBAR295
03-07-20, 06:42 PM
Wow :o ... John you dived deep for this one. Your pressure hull still intact?
CB had some interesting ideas back in the day. He had a knack for thinking outside the box when it came to SH2 or SH3. His mods were very basic and straight forward.
Anyway, thanks for resurrecting this from the depths. Brought back some nice memories.
Good hunting,
FUBAR295
John Pancoast
03-07-20, 07:31 PM
Wow :o ... John you dived deep for this one. Your pressure hull still intact?
CB had some interesting ideas back in the day. He had a knack for thinking outside the box when it came to SH2 or SH3. His mods were very basic and straight forward.
Anyway, thanks for resurrecting this from the depths. Brought back some nice memories.
Good hunting,
FUBAR295
Yeah, I've been using his escort fix on a modded stock campaign. I like it so I checked into his other work. Anything to get the lousy escort AI in the game to be better, in any version.
Hitman told me the same thing about CB that you state.
For awhile now, I've been going back and reading why this or that was done, etc. to the game.
Been fun research.
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