Submarine Tenders...

[LoBlo]

Alrighty then...

... so your SSN has been on a independent forward patrol doing some recon, not attached to any CVSG, and your running out of food. You need to find the nearest submarine tender to stock up on meat loaf and pie for your crew (mmm.. meat loaf and pie :yep: .. and don't forget the hotdogs). Question is... where would the nearest sub tender being hanging out?

Some possibilities...
1. Might be hanging out with the nearest CVSG. You'll just have to find the nearest carrier group, set speed for them, and a subtender is bound to be tagging along.
2. Hanging out at the nearest friendly naval base, waiting for something to do. Just set sail for the nearest port. Might be a little ways away and subtract from you time on patrol.
3. Floating around aimlessly undefended. Just hanging about on its own independent patrol...

My gut says that Sub tenders will probably almost always be hanging around CVSG. So that subs, even those not attacked to the carrier group will have to find one and restock... can anyone confirm, or has good information about sub tender operations?

[SeaQueen]

Some possibilities...
1. Might be hanging out with the nearest CVSG. You'll just have to find the nearest carrier group, set speed for them, and a subtender is bound to be tagging along.
2. Hanging out at the nearest friendly naval base, waiting for something to do. Just set sail for the nearest port. Might be a little ways away and subtract from you time on patrol.
3. Floating around aimlessly undefended. Just hanging about on its own independent patrol...


I don't have any experience in this matter, but I doubt that submarines really do a whole lot of underway replenishment. If they did, my suspicion is that it'd most likely be done with a helo rather than rafting up with a ship at sea.

[Henson]

We pull in.

Sometimes we never even tie up to the pier, but it is way too dangerous to try to transfer stuff at sea to do it for something as optional as food.

Eat the crackers and be happy.:arrgh!:

We do have tenders though. The tow remaining are based in Italy and Guam, but they are constantly on the move. A lot of their function is in flying tech support out to whatever port a broke sub is in.

[LoBlo]

What if your sub has been on combat patrol and needs to replenish its weapon supply? Should it just head all the way to port and leave its OpArea?

[Sub Sailor]

The only times that I know of Subs making an transfer is illness, or an operational part. The only ones I have ever been involved in was by Helo.
Tenders are always based someplace and we would return to them. I received tender services in San Diego (Ballast Point), Scotland, Rota Spain, and Guam.
We had one occasion that there was a personnel transfer, it was a spec op and the individual was ferried over by a chopper.


Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

[Herman]

My gut says that Sub tenders will probably almost always be hanging around CVSG. So that subs, even those not attacked to the carrier group will have to find one and restock... can anyone confirm, or has good information about sub tender operations?
I would tend to disagree with this premise. Having a sub tender tied to a carrier (or vice-versa) is going to severely restrict the mobility that said carrier needs to ensure safety and survival, no?

[Henson]

What if your sub has been on combat patrol and needs to replenish its weapon supply? Should it just head all the way to port and leave its OpArea?

If you've ever seen what we go through to load weapons, you'd understand how unsafe (suicidal even) it would be to load weapons anywhere away from a solid pier.

We basically take the boat apart. We have to get a 20+ foot weapon down a hatch and lower it at an an angle through all three decks of the submarine. This involves rigging special gear topside, gutting the upper and middle level passageways, and a crane. Doing this at sea is just not an option. People would die, or the boat would sink because of water down the hatch.

[LuftWolf]

I think it's hard to appreciate just how big a 53cm torpedo is unless you're standing right next to one.

These things are just friggin huge.

A 65cm torpedo must be the size of a medium size private aircraft, or at least seem like it right up close.

[SeaQueen]

We had one occasion that there was a personnel transfer, it was a spec op and the individual was ferried over by a chopper.


When you do that sort of thing, does it take a lot of special preparation of the boat?

[Herman]

I think it's hard to appreciate just how big a 53cm torpedo is unless you're standing right next to one.

These things are just friggin huge.

A 65cm torpedo must be the size of a medium size private aircraft, or at least seem like it right up close.
So, relatively, how much smaller are the Mk46 torps carried by the helos? Or the 406mm torps carried by the Charlies?

[LoBlo]

That's interesting to know.

I thought that sub tenders job was to replenish weapons and store to a sub while on patrol. Its interesting that a sub can't be replenished until it returns to port.

lb

[compressioncut]

I think it's hard to appreciate just how big a 53cm torpedo is unless you're standing right next to one.

These things are just friggin huge.

A 65cm torpedo must be the size of a medium size private aircraft, or at least seem like it right up close. So, relatively, how much smaller are the Mk46 torps carried by the helos? Or the 406mm torps carried by the Charlies?
A 46 is waaaaaaaay smaller than a 48. Like one quarter the size.

Here's a picture of a bunch of 46s with people in the shot for reference:

http://fileanchor.com/32462-r.jpg

[Henson]

That's interesting to know.

I thought that sub tenders job was to replenish weapons and store to a sub while on patrol. Its interesting that a sub can't be replenished until it returns to port.

lb
Well, you're kind of right. What a tender really is is an entire shore maintenance activity, but packed in on a ship. All of the repair shops, electircal shops, welders, etc. that would normally service a boat in port are stationed on this mobile platform. The tender then can meet boats when they pull into foreign ports so that a boat based in San Diego doesn't have to travel all the way back to the states when they break in SE Asia, but they can be met in Japan, Malaysia or Singapore instead. Less transit time=more time on station.

[Herman]

A 46 is waaaaaaaay smaller than a 48. Like one quarter the size.

Here's a picture of a bunch of 46s with people in the shot for reference:
Thanks for putting it in perspective. So, do the Mk46s measure about 300mm-324mm, then?

[Captain Norman]

That's interesting to know.

I thought that sub tenders job was to replenish weapons and store to a sub while on patrol. Its interesting that a sub can't be replenished until it returns to port.

lb
Well, you're kind of right. What a tender really is is an entire shore maintenance activity, but packed in on a ship. All of the repair shops, electircal shops, welders, etc. that would normally service a boat in port are stationed on this mobile platform. The tender then can meet boats when they pull into foreign ports so that a boat based in San Diego doesn't have to travel all the way back to the states when they break in SE Asia, but they can be met in Japan, Malaysia or Singapore instead. Less transit time=more time on station.
But doesnt the United States have foreign naval bases in those kinds of regions where submarines can dock and get repairs without having to send a tender?

[LoBlo]

Here's a related question. Anyone have any good websites showing a map of all the US Naval bases? Or at least the ones sub capable.

I'm making a campaign series where I have to pull into dock, but I want to make it accurate.

[Henson]

We are actually BASED in San Diego, Groton, Norfolk, Guam, Kings Bay, Pearl Harbor, and Bangor (WA).

SSNs pull in EVERYWHERE. Hong Kong, Singapore, Chile, you name it. Anywhere a carrier pulls in, we show up from time to time. There is a difference between liberty ports and working ports though, and if we're doing much work on the boat we try to pull in to a port with a strong US presence (preferably a US base), such as Yokosuka, Japan, Bahrain or LaMaddalena, Italy. The USS Frank Cable (a Guam based tender) spends a lot of time in Japan.

You can find these ports on the internet.

[swimsalot]

As an aircrewman we did one (only one) op with a sub, it was a med-evac for a guy that they thought was having an MI (turned out to be a gall-bladder :)
We lowered our basket to the sub deck from a 50 foot hover, they loaded up the pt, we left. Seas were maybe 3-4 feet, but it looked like the damn thing was gonna go back under at any time. Definately not the environment for any serious loading/unloading.

[LoBlo]

We are actually BASED in San Diego, Groton, Norfolk, Guam, Kings Bay, Pearl Harbor, and Bangor (WA).

SSNs pull in EVERYWHERE. Hong Kong, Singapore, Chile, you name it. Anywhere a carrier pulls in, we show up from time to time. There is a difference between liberty ports and working ports though, and if we're doing much work on the boat we try to pull in to a port with a strong US presence (preferably a US base), such as Yokosuka, Japan, Bahrain or LaMaddalena, Italy. The USS Frank Cable (a Guam based tender) spends a lot of time in Japan.

You can find these ports on the internet.

Alrightly then, so.... guess if my sub in my mission is in the Persian Gulf, then it would have to go to...hm...Bahrain sounds good I guess...
...but... let's say that there's a sea denial effort going on prohibiting US entry into the Persian Gulf...SE Asia is just seems to far for a quick, mid patrol port stop.:dead:

[SeaQueen]

Alrightly then, so.... guess if my sub in my mission is in the Persian Gulf, then it would have to go to...hm...Bahrain sounds good I guess...
...but... let's say that there's a sea denial effort going on prohibiting US entry into the Persian Gulf...SE Asia is just seems to far for a quick, mid patrol port stop.:dead:

You're right. That's why these ports are strategically important. It's a long way to a major US base overseas. As a second choice they might also try Aden or Djibouti. Djibouti has a lot of French and American assets there. Aden has a lot of allies there. I think the British like to keep stuff there. There's other options, but none of them have as much security or as many resources to draw on as the big bases.

It's interesting to follow what goes on in the Navy news www.navy.mil (http://www.navy.mil). Certain ports, even though they don't necessarily have major bases there, stand out. They'd probably go to one of those.

[Rip]

We are actually BASED in San Diego, Groton, Norfolk, Guam, Kings Bay, Pearl Harbor, and Bangor (WA).

SSNs pull in EVERYWHERE. Hong Kong, Singapore, Chile, you name it. Anywhere a carrier pulls in, we show up from time to time. There is a difference between liberty ports and working ports though, and if we're doing much work on the boat we try to pull in to a port with a strong US presence (preferably a US base), such as Yokosuka, Japan, Bahrain or LaMaddalena, Italy. The USS Frank Cable (a Guam based tender) spends a lot of time in Japan.

You can find these ports on the internet.
Alrightly then, so.... guess if my sub in my mission is in the Persian Gulf, then it would have to go to...hm...Bahrain sounds good I guess...
...but... let's say that there's a sea denial effort going on prohibiting US entry into the Persian Gulf...SE Asia is just seems to far for a quick, mid patrol port stop.:dead:

Head for Diego Garcia:yep:

[Sub Sailor]

I would like to make the point that the Sub Crew can do many repairs at sea and submerged.
I personally have rebuilt pumps, steam generator feed valves, fixed steam leaks, plugged leaking heat exchanger tubes. I was on a boat that had a "close encounter" with another sub, not friendly, and we had to surface to cut some damaged stuff off so we could raise some mast.
In US navy crews you have people trained to run the lathe, welding, and many other tools, and it is amazing what can be accomplished and then remember, US boats anyway, have many, many back up systems.
But to resupply, especially weapons, you need a tender and a safe location. Some one wrote in this post, weapon load out is a major evolution, not one that could safely be done at sea.
If you use up your weapons you go home or to the nearest tender. One could get services to some degree from friendly countries, but there are structural and engineering difference a places limits on this.

Have a good one,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)