Torpedo in the water!

[Enigma]

.....What do you do?

just curious to get an idea of what you guys normally do as an evasive tactic when fired upon....

[goldorak]

.....What do you do?

just curious to get an idea of what you guys normally do as an evasive tactic when fired upon....

Wait some minutes to decide if the torpedo is coming for me, otherwise i stay low and silent.
As to the evasive tactics, most of them are illustrated in the "Multiplayer Tactical Employment Manual" available on subguru website.

[FERdeBOER]

Therea are several tactics.
i.e: you can read the Seawolves Bluebook (in download section of www.subguru.com) and ther's a section about that.

There's no a "universal" question about this, and after many tries and visits to the bottom, you will find your way.

I can say mine to you: is not very pollished, because I'm not an expert (even advanced), but many times works. :yep:

First, don't panic. Look the torp on your sonar screen. If is faint or you can't hear it, be calm, it's far. If you can see it clearly, is close, but not panic yet.

Look the movement, if the signal is moving, probably is not going to your direction, so the better thing to do is remain quiet and, if you judge is nedded, set course to opposite direction (because maybe when the torp becomes active, can catch you).
If the signal remains still... well, the torp is on your direction and very probably is closing. You can begin to panic :huh:

Now begins the personal way to evade. I've read about launching active or passive decoys depending if the torpedo is active or passive, but I'm not feel confindent with that. :shifty:
My first move when I'm sure the torp is heading to my sub and it has possibilities (you will know that with practise), is manouevering my sub with the torp on a 45º angle of my stern, acceletare (but not to flank yet) and launch the two types of countermeasures on the opposite depth. After a while, when I'm sure the countermeasures are between the torp and my sub, I make a 90º turn and launch another couple of countermasures in the middle of the turn.

Contiune running for a while and then reduce to listen, many times I evaded the torp just with this.
If the torp continues behind you, begin to think on more agressive manoeuvers and at more speed... and yes, you can panic :dead:

Hope this helps.

[Nexus7]

It depends on witch platform I am driving, and on what platform my opponent is driving.
If the opponent drives an Akula and I drive a Seawolf but didn't yet detect him, I am 90% sure he hasn't got me. If I did detect him, the matter becomes more serious. I immediately check the BB sonar. If i see some fat traces the first thing i do, is to assign contact on SA and TA to gain a master asap and I start to worry. Having a master I know if I am already in danger or not, knowing the aquisition range of the ASROCS.

If the fishes are close (ASROCS) or in my direction (65cm, adcap...) I fire back immediately. If they're on my direction but not ASROC, if i can i go hide behind some seamount and clear datum.

If there are helos or Orions in game, things become more complex...

[Deadeye313]

what about for us FFG players? how do we get away? We don't have countermeasures and we would need an island to hide.

[LuftWolf]

You have the Nixie, which is 85% effective against non-wakehoming torpedoes (at least for one use until you can rig it back in and out again).

First of all, countermeasures other than the Nixie should not make torpedoes explode on CM's and that's the way it is in LWAMI so my answer will account for this.

I am also assuming you have verified that the torpedoes are actually headed your way, which is a whole different topic. Evading torpedoes not aimed at you is worse than evading late.

In stock DW, for subs, set course 180 from the incoming torpedo, and fire two decoys. Repeat this until there are no more torpedoes in the water.

For LWAMI, (for LWAMI4, to be released, GO DEEP! most torpedoes lose speed at depth, and some can even be made to exceed max depth and shut down if they are tracking you) I recommend setting course initially 180 from the incoming torpedo and going to flank. Fire a single active decoy, and then another active decoy about 1-2 seconds later. Then turn course 90-130 from the torpedo (using a more acute angle to the torpedo if it is closer, hard left or right rudder to a full reverse course if you believe the torpedo has already acquired your decoys). Then head on until you don't think the torpedo is a threat any more (not pinging you), or you need to slow down and reestablish situational awareness.

Generally speaking, the more you run, the more you increase your chances of dying from something other than the torpedo you are evading. Use only enough to get away, with the following exception. If someone really has the drop on you, and you want to get out, then stay on a fast evading course, to "clear datum" and make sure you don't stop until you are out of range, but if you want to stay engaged, don't go running around aimlessly.

For the FFG's, for LWAMI and stock the plan is more or less the same, clear datum at about 90-130 degrees at max speed with the Nixie streamed. If you are facing more than one torpedo or wakehomers, then your situation is much more serious. For acoustic homing torpedoes, you have to hope you can clear the datum. Wakehomers can be avoided easily by the FFG if you are at 5kts or under... sprint at an angle for some distance and then cut to 5kts.

Cheers,
David

[Nexus7]

When I know my opponent to be a competent one or an experienced opponent, I say "****" he found me!

All I do is assign trackers to the incomings and try to hide and disappear, hoping on a second round (if I can't hide I have to shot back on the bearing and prepare to pray).

If I don't achieve to disappear or to succesfully randomly engage the opponent I give everything to evade.

If my evasive maneuvers are successfull I now randomly know where my opponent could be, but this is just his bearing, and some minutes ago. Since I use to drive advanced platforms in therms of sonar capability I am not used to be overrun in matter of aquisition, thus allowing me to offer an intersting fight.

If the torpedo comes from the air and is close and an heli is around I just go deep and disappear, try to clear datum as fast as possible.

Sometimes, you just can't manage :ping:

[Werewolf13]

I've not played DW online yet but played Sub Command online for about 2 years so I've got some experience in this.

Tactics are different when playing a human than when playing the AI. Most of what has been mentioned above will spoof the AI.

When playing a human though things get dicey. One of the things I would do that worked against inexperienced and sometimes even moderately experienced drivers was recon by torpedoe.

If you get a faint or intermittent sonar track on the waterfall I'd put a torp in the water and just drive it (and making sure not to drive it straight in so as not to get a snapshot in return) to where I thought the enemy was without going active with it. the inexperienced guys very often would panic and go to flank which would allow me to lock 'em up easily. The more experienced guys might just speed up a little but that was often enough to get a solid lock.

The really experienced guys would change course but not speed to firm up their own lock on the torp and more often than not would figure out that the torp was in recon mode. They stayed slow, would change depth, course etc to confuse what they knew was a really weak contact for me.

Point is don't speed up unless you absolutely have to...

[LuftWolf]

Please be aware that this tactic is big No-No for many players.

I DO NOT play against anyone who uses torpedoes for recon.

Of course, it's up to you.

[SeaQueen]

Please be aware that this tactic is big No-No for many players.

I DO NOT play against anyone who uses torpedoes for recon.

Of course, it's up to you.

Straight searching torpedoes and wire breaks ought to fix this problem. The straight searching torpedoes will probably make double kills a lot more frequent because someone who counter fires a straight search torpedo will have their torpedo arrive at right about the same time the recon-torpedo shooter's torpedo does.

The wire breaks will force them to close a little bit more if they want to maintain the wire, or fire torpedoes in cleverly designed patterns to improve one's chances statistically.

It won't make recon-by-torpedo a completely ineffective tactic, but it will definitely take some of the fangs out of it, making it a lot more dangerous and uncertain when it makes sense and how well it will work. That makes sense to me.

[Wildcat]

Yes, I was recently sunk by someone who just launched 2 adcaps and acquired me by torpedo detection alone, he never had a sonar contact at all.

This is totally unrealistic and hopefully with snapping wires this kind of cheap play will be eliminated.

[Nexus7]

Yes, I was recently sunk by someone who just launched 2 adcaps and acquired me by torpedo detection alone, he never had a sonar contact at all.

This is totally unrealistic and hopefully with snapping wires this kind of cheap play will be eliminated.

Shouldn't this already represent a weak move for him? While he doesn't yet know where you are, you now know where he is...

[SeaQueen]

Shouldn't this already represent a weak move for him? While he doesn't yet know where you are, you now know where he is...

It's actually a quite strong position. The problem lies in torpedo average speeds, and the size of the area in which the scenario is taking place.

Suppose you counter fired a snake searching torpedo in response to his shot. Because your torpedo is now zig-zagging, and his is going straight, his will arrive at your position first.

Now... if you could shoot a straight searching torpedo. He'd have to think twice because your torpedo is going to arrive on target at almost the same time his will. Suddenly the gamble doesn't always look so good to him.

In naval warfare in general, one of the most important principles of tactics (see Capt. Wayne Hughes book), is to SHOOT EFFECTIVELY FIRST. The idea is that modern weapons are so potentially lethal that if you are able to always have the first shot advantage, you'll probably do really well most of the time, provided you're able to overwhelm the enemy's countermeasures.

Shooting with no other information, thus confers to the munchkin the first shot advantage. In real life, he wouldn't be at an advantage, necessarily because someone could just as easily shoot a torpedo right back at him with an equal or greater chance of hitting him, so the outcome of this battle ought to be a coin flip. In the battle he described, the person taking the time to develop a firing solution tends to lose, even though, he might have a better idea of where the munchkin is.

Now... none of this really matters, though, if the torpedo is unlikely to find a target. But.. if you don't chose the size of the scenario area wisely, you can make this tactic EXTREMELY effective because in essense the enemy is ALREADY localized from the moment the scenario starts.

Suppose a torpedo can see 2Nmi in both directions. Therefore it searches an area about 4Nmi wide. Traveling at 55kts, the in one hour the torpedo has searched 220 Nmi^2. That corresponds to a box about 15x15Nmi. Now... suppose you are going 5kts and you can see 18Nmi. In one hour, you've only searched 90Nmi^2. Given the scale of the scenarios many people build, recon by torpedo means that in less than an hour, your torpedo will very likely have found the bad guy first. In that situation, it's the best thing to do.

So, given the two factors: your torpedo will most likely arrive on target before his does, and that your torpedo is a more effective searcher than you, in the absense of wire breaks and straight searching torpedoes, it's actually a pretty good tactic.

[Nexus7]

I really would like to face such a poor player: if he dares to shoot first without having some accettable solution he would regret his dumb move pretty certainly.

The advantage in shooting second is to be able to quickly produce a master contact on his fish, with gives you also his actual position. Assume I am driving an Akula, I have all the time to fire ASROCS on his dumb head :lol:

Next time, at least vs an Akula, he'd think twice.

[SeaQueen]

Next time, at least vs an Akula, he'd think twice.

The Starfish helps a lot because they give you better counterfire. My intuition is that torpedoes would probably be a little bit better, though. The option to employ a straight searching torpedo all by itself would give one more effective counterfire, and largely neutralize the tactic. Wire breaks would be the nail in the coffin.

Torpedo speed can be really critical. As they're modeled in the game, they've got the highest search rates of any platform. I don't blame anyone for using them as a sensor when I look at it through that lens.

[Fitz62STG]

My best advice would be "LOOK, LISTEN, and FEEL". Who did it come from? If you don't have track on the launching platform mark a bearing and evade. Pop a couple of countermeasures go above or below the layer (if present). But, the biggest thing is recognizing range (which can be vary hard). If it's close you should have track on target already. Assuming you are in a 688 or SW class. Operator recognition is key. I all else fails go for - hear it (start evasion), check what bearing it is coming from ( redirect your evasion ), pop some countermeasures and alter depth.

Depending where you are at depends on the tactics you utilize.

[sonar732]

I would utilize a combination of tactics. First, assign the tracker to the fish, then go deep below the layer, mark on the map the general location of the fish. Launch 2 UUV's, one above and one below the layer. Steer one towards the location in the layer detection commenced, and have one the same course as yours. Do a few small course changes to check NB very carefully for a faint OPFOR tonal. I wouldn't launch the countermeasures unless you know for sure that the weapon is coming for you. All this does is give the OPFOR a location of where you were, that you were spooked by his fish, and he can fire a spread on either side of the cm's to cover datum.

[Wildcat]

In this case the torpedoes were shot so distantly that their bearings from the launcher were drastically different from his actual bearing from me, I figured this was the case when I detected the torpedoes in a different area than I expected his sub to be so I didn't countershoot. He just launched from 30+ km away and let the torpedoes search by themselves.

I won't play multiplayer anymore because of tactics like that. Just spoils the fun. More interesting to play against the AI even if it's not as 'smart'.

[Bellman]

The smartness of the human host is merely in choosing a scenario in which he is very familiar with the area of dispersion of
'randomised' starting positions.

How often, in sub v sub MP, do you find 'mine host' has a choice position behind a small island from which to launch his 'exploritary' torps into the blue water where you sit. Such cynical techniques, and there are many more, are driving many like Wildcat away from MP.

It would be entirely possible and good practise to randomise the allocation of free for all submarine slot allocations in the pre-launch room.
Nothing worse than devoting two hours to beeing a 'mark' but when this and other 'setups' are repeated incessantly,
you have to wonder whether such MP is a waste of time !!

Fair play and a level playing field are concepts foreign to many MP players. To some extent this corruption is more prevalent in fleets where the drive for promotion points blinkers good sportsmanship.

[LuftWolf]

Generally speaking, I blame the mission designers and the players both...

OKO is a shining example of someone who is both a great MP mission designer and a truly disciplined player.

I've always had a good time playing 1) with OKO, 2) on OKO's MP maps/missions.

Ditto for Molon Labe.

Cheers,
David

[Nexus7]

I won't play multiplayer anymore because of tactics like that. Just spoils the fun. More interesting to play against the AI even if it's not as 'smart'.

When I was active within the Seawolves I used to have a lot of MP games. But very rarely someone came up with such poor way to play (maybe never).
If you use to play within a community you don't want to lower your reputation to zero, and so "miss" the interesting events... :smug:

[Fish]

Please be aware that this tactic is big No-No for many players.

I DO NOT play against anyone who uses torpedoes for recon.

Of course, it's up to you.

Imagine your a 688(I) skipper and you know or at least have a clue there is a kilo waiting for you perhaps behind that small island. Why shouldn't you launch a torp around that island to flush him out?:hmm:

[goldorak]

[
Imagine your a 688(I) skipper and you know or at least have a clue there is a kilo waiting for you perhaps behind that small island. Why shouldn't you launch a torp around that island to flush him out?:hmm:

You could fire a uuv instead. :yep:
I doubt that in RL, subs doing recon missions fire torpedos just to "flush" an eventual enemy out there.
Uuv are designed right for that kind of mission so why not use them ? :hmm:

[Fish]

[
Imagine your a 688(I) skipper and you know or at least have a clue there is a kilo waiting for you perhaps behind that small island. Why shouldn't you launch a torp around that island to flush him out?:hmm:

You could fire a uuv instead. :yep:
I doubt that in RL, subs doing recon missions fire torpedos just to "flush" an eventual enemy out there.
Uuv are designed right for that kind of mission so why not use them ? :hmm:

Because of the time you have, or haven't?

PS: In recon missions, no, you shouldn't use that tacitc. But in a matter of live or dead?

[Molon Labe]

Please be aware that this tactic is big No-No for many players.

I DO NOT play against anyone who uses torpedoes for recon.

Of course, it's up to you.

"Using torpedoes for recon" is certainly a dickheaded way to play, but what he described actually involved firing a snapshot and firming the solution up later. It's a little sloppy since he didn't get a solution first, but it's nowhere near as "evil" as blind fire.

Of course, if LW/A 4 or DWA4 or whatever you're calling it now makes the player more likely to pay for that sort of sloppiness, I'm all for it.

[goldorak]

Because of the time you have, or haven't?

PS: In recon missions, no, you shouldn't use that tacitc. But in a matter of live or dead?


You could have a point, nontheless i think that a sub driver should only fire one or more torpedos when he has pinned down the location of the enemy.
I guess this is the type of issue which should be specified in the roe for the mission in question.

[Fish]

Because of the time you have, or haven't?

PS: In recon missions, no, you shouldn't use that tacitc. But in a matter of live or dead?


You could have a point, nontheless i think that a sub driver should only fire one or more torpedos when he has pinned down the location of the enemy.
I guess this is the type of issue which should be specified in the roe for the mission in question.

Ok, a torp popped up at five mile from your position, came from the other side of the layer, (sneacky enemy), then you wait till you pinned down his postion? :hmm:

I think in the end it is the othe r player who decide what tactic he should use, not you.

[goldorak]

Ok, a torp popped up at five mile from your position, came from the other side of the layer, (sneacky enemy), then you wait till you pinned down his postion? :hmm:

I think in the end it is the othe r player who decide what tactic he should use, not you.

Of course i agree with this.
Want i don't agree on is for a player that has the initiative to fire 5+ torpedos to flush out the enemy. Hoping that the topredos sooner or later will acquire the enemy because of limited playing distances.
Obviously if you're on the receiving end of an attack, then by all means use whatever tactics you want to escape and avoid being destroyed. :yep:

[JamesT73J]

This is why it's good to get to know various MP players, that way you will find people whom you can enjoy a match with. TimmyG and a couple of the Subclub guys were always great to play against, Tim being particular about 'gamey' play.

In stock SC, the Mk48's were like silver bullets - you could launch them on a bearing and be confident of getting a kill. Naturally, alot of maps resulted in torpfests from people making multiple 'probe' shots - simple logic, fire enough and you'll hit something. Likewise, the Akula's Stallion was regularly misused.

I have to say, the early matches I played with DW were good fun. Generally well- disciplined play, with very good ASW players making life difficult for the subbies.

I've not tried LWAMI online yet, I'd love to have some matches.

[Molon Labe]

This is why it's good to get to know various MP players, that way you will find people whom you can enjoy a match with. TimmyG and a couple of the Subclub guys were always great to play against, Tim being particular about 'gamey' play.

In stock SC, the Mk48's were like silver bullets - you could launch them on a bearing and be confident of getting a kill. Naturally, alot of maps resulted in torpfests from people making multiple 'probe' shots - simple logic, fire enough and you'll hit something. Likewise, the Akula's Stallion was regularly misused.

I have to say, the early matches I played with DW were good fun. Generally well- disciplined play, with very good ASW players making life difficult for the subbies.

I've not tried LWAMI online yet, I'd love to have some matches.

That was a really fun crowd to play with, but they had pretty much dissapeared even before DW came out. :cry:

[JamesT73J]

That was a really fun crowd to play with, but they had pretty much dissapeared even before DW came out. :cry:

Yes. I'm going back a while now, specifically to late '02 - early '03. I think a number of us had real-life stuff going on, and if you were Europe-based it could be difficult anyway, as alot of SCHQ's players were North-American, so I had some bloody late nights - matches taking till 0300gmt were not uncommon :D

I'm once again heavily committed with work, but I can't wait to get back into online play, I really miss the SC games, and I like DW with LWAMI even more, so I know it will be good.

[Fish]

No t a problem to find matches in euro time, there is even a euro virtual fleet, two to be more precise.

[Nexus7]

I am temporarily away (since around 10 months) from the MP matches, due to work constraints.

Bit sad to read that in this gap of time things haven't changed.

Just after DW's release I experienced this loss of fun at playing too, but i think I know why (at leaast for myself).


Monologue 1:

1. CM's detonating torpedoes piss me off big time (i know this is an old disk playing)
2. Maneuverability has greatly decreased (no dance with the fish anymore, or you loose your TA if still out).
3. To evade is just to easy. Put as many CM's as you can in the water and the fish will detonate on one of those.

CHEAP!

Monologue 2: (Part 2)

given all this "fun reducing" factors for SC addicted people, the news are supposed to be:

1. MP games with 10+ people in the same battle
2. Complexity of the battle raised greatly (need to be more smart) :up:
3. More than one player on a single platform (if you can't communicate effectively you die) :up:


While the Monologue1-part seems to still be the "stand of the art", Monologue2-part seem to not have taken place at all :cry:

[LuftWolf]

Monologue 1:

1. CM's detonating torpedoes piss me off big time (i know this is an old disk playing)
2. Maneuverability has greatly decreased (no dance with the fish anymore, or you loose your TA if still out).
3. To evade is just to easy. Put as many CM's as you can in the water and the fish will detonate on one of those.

Well, this is what mods are for! :cool:

However, in regards to number 2, the reduced maneoverability is actually a big enhancement to physical realism over SC, disregarding of course the ascending bugs that will be fixed in DW 1.04.

Cheers,
David

[micky1up]

best thing to do depends on the torpedo if its a torp that uses doppler to track then u need to slow down (dont know if this is simulated in the game im talking from xp) put the torp at relative 120 degrees change depth accross the layer if you have one and speed up drop counter messures

[LuftWolf]

best thing to do depends on the torpedo if its a torp that uses doppler to track then u need to slow down (dont know if this is simulated in the game im talking from xp) put the torp at relative 120 degrees change depth accross the layer if you have one and speed up drop counter messures

Amizaur is currently working on torpedo sensors for LWAMI4, and the doppler tracking for torpedoes is something we are seriously looking at implimenting... in fact, to some degree, this is hardcoded into DW, but the stock database doesn't take advantage of it.

So, in short, we hope to have this aspect of the torpedo sensors modelled in the next version of the mod we are working on.

[micky1up]

another wish list is more information from the weapons which you do get in real life such as the weapon held solutuion on the target(really usefull) weather the weapon is homing when the fuse arms and when the weapon thinks its tracking a decoy as it stands the fire control area is the weak area of the game unfortunatley this is the most important area

[jason taylor]

I got a bit of experience in evading just today. The most important thing is rather mundane. First slow down the game time as far down as it can go. This gives time to evaluate. It also gives time to go to the torpedo room and drop countermeasures. Then put on speed and hightail it out of there. Speed vs stealth is always an interesting point, but unless it is not aimed at you, the torpedo knows where to look so it is most important to not be there. Then keep makeing sharp course and depth changes for a short time dropping countermeasures intermittently. Then cut the engine when you are satisfied you have found a new hideout. This really combines the two methods. Some will say this is elementary. Certainly it is-but it is most interesting. The main point is to not be there when the fish arrives.
I had an interesting experience this afternoon. I was holding absolutely still, not daring to move while a torpedo was searching within less then 10000 yards. It got closer little by little yard by yard. Then it turned port and started to move away. Then, just as I was saying "whew" somehow it caught a sniff, turned toward me and went right for me and kaboom!

[Kapitan]

To be honest i wouldnt use that tactic first of all righ all i do is as soon as i know the torp is about 8,000 yards away i drop countermeasures then do a 90 degree turn the flank run for a bit drop another set of countermeasures do a hard 90 degree turn and flank and if i need to do that again.

[Palindromeria]

granted,
one must have either detected and id'd the enemy or be searching for a known type.
but doesnt knowing the enemy and therefore,
the potential type(s) of torp in the water have an effect on reaction ?
particularly the speed range and acoustic sensor ?

in some cases firing a cm is a complete waste and may lead to the torp homing in on you when it wouldnt have otherwise.

[ASWnut101]

hehe, when I hear "conn, sonar, torpedo in the water bearing XXX,"

You usually hear back from me, the skipper, "All back emergency!"


really: the best defence is, if possible, call in a ASW plane. Any dude who fires popshots like that will fall easy prey to a P-3. How? Simple. (I know its cheating, but if he makes you that mad, use truth. put a mark on his location. turn off truth. put a 'guess' manual contact on the mark. put track on link. Call in Me in my P-3 and Kap in his Akula. Kap gets close from another direction. he detects 'cheater' on link. I fly in in my Orion, "bombbay open; weapon assigned; weapon away;"

boom.

repeat this for about twenty times on the same player, and when your finished, tell him to play right. If he fails to listen, repeat.:arrgh!:

[Enigma]

Thinking more on this....

Why is it I dont get updated reports on the location of the torpedo? How far/long from impact, etc....

[ASWnut101]

you kinda have to do it your self... and that leaves you unable to drive.

I usually use the speed at which the torpedo pings hit you. When it is really fast and you are going slow, you can stick your head between your legs and kiss your A## goodbye!