SHIII had ...... SHIV will have ......

[Drebbel]

Ok, SHIII had several unique and ground braking things that no popular subsim had before:

- 3d environment, boat and crew
- Real ports
- Crew ManagementSHIV will use the same engine as SHIII, so we probably can not expect any ground breaking features in it .................. right ? ................. or can we ?

Any suggestions ?

What ground braking and relatively easy to code thing could the team add to SHIV

[DeepSix]

Hi, Drebbel, could you be more specific about what would deserve to be considered "groundbreaking?" I can think of several things that have already been mentioned either in the "wish list" or the "suggestions" threads.

[Drebbel]

This is not intended to be a whish list at all. But I have not read any ground braking (and do-able) things in the other wish list. But I must admit, I do not check them every day.

Ever since the first subsim all subsims where more of the same. Untill multi play was introduced, then a long silence till online surface vs subs play, then a silence till 3d sim and crew management.

These where ground braking things imho, never done before. So will the dev-team have the opportunity to use the SHIII engine and do some ground braking things for SHIV with it.

Or does the engine just allow us to get more of the same, but this time in the pacific instead of the Atlantic ?

[Gizzmoe]

A convoy system with correct evasion and escort tactics, combined with correct physics (acceleration, deacceleration and turn rate) of ships plus a LOS/LOF check before they try to fire at you (no more friendly-fire at other convoy vessels).

[DeepSix]

...Or does the engine just allow us to get more of the same, but this time in the pacific instead of the Atlantic ?

No, I think there's room for new possibilities, I just think that many new ideas have already been posted - perhaps it's just a matter of what different people consider to be "groundbreaking." I just asked because I think this will probably turn into another general suggestions thread, and I got the impression that wasn't what you wanted. Nevertheless, and trying to think "outside the box:":D

Although it has been mentioned elsewhere, I think a real weather model with dynamic and accurate weather systems (as opposed to just "calm" vs. "rough") would be a groundbreaking achievement. Other people have suggested celestial navigation as the basis for laying and keeping course.

Gizzmoe's suggestion is excellent and do-able. Along that same line I mentioned constant active pinging by enemy escorts and constant helming.

Yet another good suggestion that has been mentioned is to have "strategic" AI - not just isolated ASW attacks, but ASW encounters that the AI remembers and factors in to its next moves. For example, a patrol plane spots you and reports your position to nearby destroyers, working in concert rather than each making separate attacks.

I'm not trying to turn this into another general suggestions thread; these are just some of the things that have been mentioned already, any of which I would consider to be groundbreaking to varying degrees and not just mere improvements. None has been done before, any would be a selling point, and my guess is that all are probably do-able as far as programming goes. Sorry, I'm not trying to kill or hijack your thread, but I do think there are good suggestions in the others that deserve close study as potentially groundbreaking inclusions.

[FesterShinetop]

Ok, SHIII had several unique and ground braking things that no popular subsim had before:
- 3d environment, boat and crew
- Real ports
- Crew ManagementSHIV will use the same engine as SHIII, so we probably can not expect any ground breaking features in it .................. right ? ................. or can we ?

Any suggestions ?

What ground braking and relatively easy to code thing could the team add to SHIV

Well, I think they can just expand on the current engine, fine tune it so to speak. So to keep with your 3 examples:

- An expanded 3d environment, the entire boat (and crew) in 3d
- Ports that are even more real, like in some of the excellent mods
- Better crew management

[timmyg00]

Crew management needs to be an option if it's included in SHIV. I find it completely tedious, and I want to be able to turn it off when I play.

TG

[Sailor Steve]

You can turn it off in SHIII. Use SHIII Commander and turn fatigue off altogether. Or, if no Commander, use the 'No Fatigue' Mod.

[Rosencrantz]

I think a new "groundbreaking idea" could be attitude "no groundbreakers this time". I think in SHIII Ubi allready came with these "groundbreakers" and most urgent need there is "tuning". Everyone of us real enthusiasts could mention a list of things which have been "allmost" done since AOD and original SH, and SHIII came with facinating new features like crew and crew managament. This time I would like to see Devs going for little but important details. What I mean talking about "allmost done" things:

Gizzmoe and Deepsix gave some good hints. I would like to add only the convoys using proper zig system. Convoys using zigs is so essential part of naval war that it's amazing this was left out from SHIII. Even the original SH gave a try for the zigs, even it was just a "rough" model.

SHIII with it's crew fatique feature can be another example: We all know how gamey the "stock fatique" is. That was easy to repair but you can just ask, why Devs were unable to build it up to work properly? That's what I mean about tuning.

AI, player sub behavior and the crew makes the holy triangle when talking about the game experience, I think.

Sry the long post and my bad english.

Greetings,

-RC-

[Egan]

Deepsix put his finger on it: weather.

Environmental rendering in world war 2 subsim have always been a bit rubbish, even in SH3.

A new weather engine is a must, especially for a simulation that will be set in the pacific where, I imagine, they get some king-hell storms.

My 'groundbreaking' feature has already been done in FS9. Allow us to connect to a weather service online and download realworld weather which will change in realtime within the game. If FS9 can do it there is no reason why a WW2 subsim cannot. I'm sure weather patterns have not changed THAT substantially in 60 years that the experience would be invalid.

Also, more weather types are an absolute must. The shear variety of conditions would add a challenging element to the game. We need fog banks, at the very least, squalls, and HUGE seas that give us no other realistic option but to dive for some peace and quiet.

Another point from Deepsix is navigation (I know man, I'm just stealing your ideas here..:p ): Why can't we do something as simple as have our navigator go up to the deck and take a reading from the sun or the stars every few hours and mark our position on the map accordingly. Obviously, those days where weather is too bad for observations would have us moving of course....but yet again the environmental conditions are affecting us.

[FAdmiral]

100% modability with around 1000 options should do the trick !!


JIM

[DeepSix]

...Another point from Deepsix is navigation (I know man, I'm just stealing your ideas here..:p ): ....

Ah, that's alright; most of 'em I just stole from somebody else anyway....:lol:

Incidentally, I think the idea of downloading weather patterns (didn't know that was even possible) has real potential; it would be mod-like and help get away from the "sameness" of the current weather.:up:

[don1reed]

RADIO MSG RECEIVED

During the war the Navy sent the Subs, "FOX Broadcasts" in burst. i.e., they recorded 18wpm morse code msgs at 300wpm, then broadcast the high-speed (for the times) msgs to the fleet.

The RM's aboard the subs had recording equipment on board that could copy the burst then play it back at slower receivable speeds.

The 300wpm morse code sounds like a "buzz" and only takes seconds to deliver. Radio Frequency propagation depended on a lot of variables(still does), and IIRC, an 11 year sun-spot cycle was heading for it's maximum during the war years, peaking around '47; but, provided frustrating occurrances of garbled text...for real. This resulted in the RM's attempting to get "fills" of the missing msgs on subsequent transmission skeds.

Those of you who've had military radio experience know what I'm talking about. Even today's Satcom mode(s) can be frustrating as well..."Can you hear me Now?"

Radio msgs in subsims are all, too easy to understand and convenient. What if you received a msg to rendezvous with a downed pilot at, say...
30-14N, 156-1_E
oops, looks like the last number in the longitude was garbled. Think you can make station and find the pilot? Think it could be a matter of life or death? Ya think we need to get a fill on the msg?
EDIT: I know, that example was too easy...how about this, 30-14N, 156-_9E...there, that'll give you 60nm to play in. :)

...I donno, to me this scenario is far more important than baby-sitting a watch bill. Who in the Navy ever sweats the "small stuff"?

[Sailor Steve]

Those of you who've had military radio experience know what I'm talking about. Even today's Satcom mode(s) can be frustrating as well..."Can you hear me Now?"
Funny you should mention that, as I was a junior RM-in-training. We used teletypes, which transmitted (If I remember Correctly) at something like 180 WPM. By 1970 we also used a variable code transmitted daily, and if your reciever went down you had to play catch-up to the correct hour to get it to work again, which was a real pain.

Sorry to go off topic, but I had to respond to that.

[don1reed]

Yeah, Steve, tell 'em:up:

back in those days, CW nets, 60wpm tty and facimile was received on a rotating drum loaded with heat sensitive paper and a hot stylus that worked (heated up) off the rf input to draw a picture...yeehaaa

...point I was trying to make...

I would much rather see more effort put into "mission essential" items than micro-managing the crew and their tours of daily duty...which was/ and is deligated to lower ranks...then again, some folks thrive on nit-noy. I've yet to read a Boat's War Log where the Captain spoke of rotating the shifts.

[Egan]

Actually, I would like to see the crew management expanded somewhat. I'd like to be able to define the watches and allow it to run without my intervention. So, either in port or at the start of the patrol, you drop crewman into a slot for the various watches, decide who the torp room crew will be etc and let the computer change them automatically at the correct times.

It's only a little thing but would take the sting out of manually do it. I would also like to define exactly who is the 1WO, 2W0, navigator and so on, but then, I am a geek.

Edit: I'm stealing ideas again...:nope::p

[Sailor Steve]

...point I was trying to make...

I would much rather see more effort put into "mission essential" items than micro-managing the crew and their tours of daily duty...which was/ and is deligated to lower ranks...then again, some folks thrive on nit-noy. I've yet to read a Boat's War Log where the Captain spoke of rotating the shifts.
Agree completely, and also with:

Actually, I would like to see the crew management expanded somewhat. I'd like to be able to define the watches and allow it to run without my intervention. So, either in port or at the start of the patrol, you drop crewman into a slot for the various watches, decide who the torp room crew will be etc and let the computer change them automatically at the correct times.

It's only a little thing but would take the sting out of manually do it. I would also like to define exactly who is the 1WO, 2W0, navigator and so on, but then, I am a geek.

Edit: I'm stealing ideas again...:nope::p
Stealing ideas? Maybe, but so many have posted that that's how they'd like to see it done that I hope they listen. I like that one best, too.

[DeepSix]

Agree completely, and also with:


Stealing ideas? Maybe, but so many have posted that that's how they'd like to see it done that I hope they listen. I like that one best, too.

Begged, borrowed, or stolen, that gets my vote as well.

[don1reed]

Stealing ideas? No such thing here...there's no pride in authorship, either :)

Now, what Egan said sounds ok. A one-time shot (setup) and forget it. That would work for me, I think.:up:

[Drebbel]

This "sea current" thread stuff is quite interesting. Good point. But it deserves its own thread. Therefore splitted it into its own thread.

Thanks for the good suggestion RC !

Just one thought, not a new one: How about the currents? With a new weather model + celestical navig. ? "Groundbreaker"?

-RC-

[Rosencrantz]

You are welcome, Drebbel.

And as we all know that's an old topic. It's just nice to have daydreams. And who knows if it's now the time for the currents. But more about this in the other thread.

-RC-

[Fidd]

I'd like to see (to have seen) in SHIV/SH3 more protracted damage-control problems to cope with, such as losing main lighting, internal flooding - ie water sloshing around in compartments, closeable watertight doors, and of course representation of all compartments in 3d. I was very disappointed with the sudden-onset death screen 1st time my boat got sunk in SH3 - very poor.

By way of fixes, I think they really should have paid more attention to the way the 3d model showed pitch changes, so that the bow pitching up appears the same when viewed from either port of starboard!

Sadly I won't be buying SHIV (or any other Ubisoft product) until I'm damn sure we don't have a repitition of the starforce debacle - which destroyed 2 DVD drives of mine before I twigged what was causing it. Whilst I greatly enjoyed SH3, and support their subsims, no game is worth that grief, and the primary thing Ubisoft are going to have to do for me - is ensure that whatever copy protection they use is rock-solid.

[stinger503]

how about the first ever subsim to use voice recognition. Just plug in a microphone and shout out "Dive to 36 metres!" and your crew responds accordingly, the ultimate simulation. Do you remember when captains had to push buttons to get their crew to do things?

[Sailor Steve]

Aces Of The Deep used voice recognition 14 years before SHIII.

[Safe-Keeper]

Several sub games already have voice recognition.

[Drebbel]

Several sub games already have voice recognition.

Including SHIII

[Wilko]

Actually, I would like to see the crew management expanded somewhat. I'd like to be able to define the watches and allow it to run without my intervention. So, either in port or at the start of the patrol, you drop crewman into a slot for the various watches, decide who the torp room crew will be etc and let the computer change them automatically at the correct times.

It's only a little thing but would take the sting out of manually do it. I would also like to define exactly who is the 1WO, 2W0, navigator and so on, but then, I am a geek.

Edit: I'm stealing ideas again...:nope::p

you and who ever else's idea it is a good idea :up:

[Steeltrap]

'Groundbreaking' for me was, is and always will be semi-realistic AI.

The reason I don't get too excited about a Pac campaign is:

1. the Pac is a HUGE area.....better get transit/time compression right.

2. the Japanese had very poor ASW compared with the battle of the Atlantic. Just look at the relative losses and how effective the blockade was. MANY books by actual commanders make it clear that, with all gear functioning (radar, sound etc), the ASW forces were not a huge concern. Sure, getting DC's was never something they liked or got used to especially, but so many times I've read that they dived to a crappy 90-100m, got below a thermal layer (which are far more prevalent in the Pac than Atlantic) and then secured from GC and motored off.

Now, how to accommodate those realities and make the game a challenge?

I DON'T want:
- psychic DDs
- merchants armed to the teeth which never seem to miss when they see me, and almost always DO see me.
- aircraft which appear in the middle of the Pac when they had nothing like the range to get there.
- aircraft which find me when the weather is poor/foggy.
- DDs which don't react when I attack things.
- DDs which don't act as a team along the lines of actual ASW doctrine as employed in the war (something the Allies got much better at vs the Japanese).
- DDs which 'hear' me 30 seconds after dropping DCs. DC explosions could render sound detection methods (passive and active) impotent for up to 5 minutes depending on various things.
- convoys which sail with ships within 50m of each other (I believe normal separation was 200m).
- convoys which don't alter course, but equally don't alter course all the time. Most 'zig-zag' patterns involved staying on a course for 15mins at a time or thereabouts I believe. Many instances merchants didn't zig at all as they weren't trained in such station-keeping exercises, and the various performances of the various merchants made this very difficult anyway.
- ASW forces which don't react on a strategic level (good point whoever made it). You can read plenty of instances of how subs moved operations after 1 or 2 sinkings so as to throw off any potential countermeasures such as ASW patrols or re-routing of shipping.



Equally:
- I don't want to have my scope stuck in the air forever while getting readings on targets. Actual doctrines were for scope exposure of less than 5 seconds on approach.
- proper plotting options on the chart.
- realistic torpedo damage. Most merchants were lucky to survive a successful detonation by 1 hit. After torpex was introduced 1 hit was usually enough for anything lacking effective compartmentalisation (which most merchants at that date did not have).

The graphic stuff is of secondary importance. Get realistic AI and that WILL be groundbreaking enough!!!