Tips For Finding Subs With Sonarbuoys

[Krasny]

please....... :)

[Molon Labe]

http://www.orionwarrior.com/files/P3_Operational_Manual.pdf

See "buoy patterns and tactics."

[SeaQueen]

You asked a deeper question than you realize...

The Orion Warriors manual has some good stuff in it. There's a few points I dislike, though. I think in the interest of simplicity they described a datum search, but that's not the best way to do it. If the time late is so small then one probably ought to just drop a DICASS on the thing, ping and find it. Either that, or do a non-acoustic search with the MAD. A datum with almost no time late means you've already localized him and you don't need to do much besides drop a torpedo. More typically a datum procecution has some appreciable time late associated with it. By making different assumptions about the target's motion based on what one already knows, one can work out the distribution of possible submarine locations as a function of time late. The simplest assumption is to assume that all courses are equally likely and the sub will continue at constant speed. If that's the case the target's location distribution looks like a circle and the best possible search is one which spirals outwards. There's a table in the Ow manual that has something to do with that, but they never make any diagrams or emphasize it.

[Deadeye313]

I'll give you some tips since I use bouies all the time as a Surface/air operator (Note these tips are for Stock DW):

Helicopter:

think about possible locations for the enemy sub. first drop a BT bouy to see if there is a layer. If not, lay Difar sonobouies every 5-7 miles around where you think the enemy sub may be. After the bouies go active, look at them all and see if you found him. If you did, drop a dicass about halfway down his line of bearing and maybe one at the far end, depending on location. Ping him and sink him.

If you have a layer, you will have to drop a VLAD sonobouy with every DIFAR. Do the same thing as before.

If you want to do a passive kill. When you have a line of bearing put passive sonobouies on either side of it. Update the first track and then mark him with the other 2. they should create a nice triangle where the sub is. right click and put a manual solution in that triangle and mark it a hostile sub. it's almost as accurate as doing an active ping.

P-3:
P-3s have a much easier time dealing with submarines than the helicopter because if the sub is at periscope depth, by the time he come up to shoot you, you already have a MAD/SAD on him and you're far away. when you come back a torpedo will keep him occupied.

lay the same bouy pattern as you would with the helicopter. this is better done at a low altitude. Keep you're MAD sensor on at all times, it could save your life, or end his.

when you have a line of bearing on the sub, just fly down it with the mad on and you'll find him. turn around and sink him.

The Oliver Hazard Perry:

This is the hardest because you are almost always vulnerable to the enemy subs.

Have you're helicopters do all the work or you could end up at the bottom of the ocean. using the helicopter control station in FFG, have you're helicopters lay the bouies like you would if you were flying. if the enemy is a close contact, all you really need is the towed array and auto TMA.

Note: you're helicopters can prosecute targets better than any human could. In fact, I sank a seawolf using only one difar bouy because the helicopter did almost a TMA of its own.

remember to keep you're AI helicopter moving. It only goes at 100Kts and flies at about 200-300ft. This is well within range of the SAMs on subs.


Basically, if you have a datum, cover it with sonobouies. Make him scared to so much as sneeze.

If you don't have a datum and/or the area is very large, create sonobouy nets (just a group of bouies lined up) in locations likely to be transitted or where they may be. use DIFARs and VLADs first and try to save the DICASS active bouies till you have a line of bearing. However, if he's a kilo class sub. you may have to ping the hell out of him with dicasses to find him.

The P-3 and FFG carry more than enough bouies to cover a 100 square miles. The helicopter is limited but can be resupplied at the Perry.

[Nexus7]

Thanks for the practical description, i printed it out :)

What kind of considerations do you do when you're thinking about possible locations of the sub(s) ?

[Krasny]

thanks deadeye, nice tips

[SeaQueen]

Thanks for the practical description, i printed it out :)

What kind of considerations do you do when you're thinking about possible locations of the sub(s) ?

If I have no data indicating anything about the submarine's position, I assume it's located at some random point uniformly distributed over the search area.

If I have a datum here's what I think about:

- The amount of time that has passed since the sub was initially localized.
- The course and speed of the sub (if known).
- The size of the initial area of uncertainty surrounding the target.

From that, I can come up with a distribution of the submarine's possible locations and begin a search from there. With a little thought, one can find submarines even hours after an initial detection with a fair amount of reliability.

The big uncertainty is one's sonar performance in light of environmental factors. That's where submarines might be able to slip through, in spite of the real possibility of you overflying them a couple of times.

[Doc Savage]

What kinds of buoys spacings do people use for the Passive buoys?
I find that I can barely get any detection range on the Passives - VLAD/DIFAR - usually <1000 yards against Akulas and 688s in goodish sonar conditions. Against Kilos or Seawolves I seem to get nothing even if they pass pretty much directly under the buoy.
So far, I mainly use MAD as my primary detection method in the P3 and the Active Dipper in the helo and use the passives only for classification after I detect something or to track torpedo launches. I'm sure there must be a better way to use passives but I'm really unable to figure out how.

(I've read the P3 guide on SubGuru pretty throughly as well as several posts on the subject in this forum. It's good info and I understand the tactics but it seems to be more for the stock db detection ranges or louder subs like the AI nukes (OSCAR/Typhoon etc)

[SeaQueen]

What kinds of buoys spacings do people use for the Passive buoys?
I find that I can barely get any detection range on the Passives - VLAD/DIFAR - usually <1000 yards against Akulas and 688s in goodish sonar conditions.

It depends. I basically use the mission editor as a mission planner, and make use of what the sim says. I make notes of it and stick it in a PowerPoint slide that's intended to go with the scenario.


Against Kilos or Seawolves I seem to get nothing even if they pass pretty much directly under the buoy.


That sounds about right.


So far, I mainly use MAD as my primary detection method in the P3 and the Active Dipper in the helo and use the passives only for classification after I detect something or to track torpedo launches. I'm sure there must be a better way to use passives but I'm really unable to figure out how.


Nothing wrong with that, sometimes a non-acoustic search might be the way to go, particularly against quiet diesels in shallow water. It's not necessarily very efficient over large areas, though. It also means you can't maintain very long barriers. Part of playing the game is making the decision about what the best sensor for a given search is. Another thing that might be worthwhile sometimes is searching with DICASS.

I also almost always use the dipper active.


(I've read the P3 guide on SubGuru pretty throughly as well as several posts on the subject in this forum. It's good info and I understand the tactics but it seems to be more for the stock db detection ranges or louder subs like the AI nukes (OSCAR/Typhoon etc)

Not necessarily. You need to understand the acoustic environment and the threat well enough to understand that every sensor is not necessarily suitable for chasing after every type of target all the time. From that, you can choose a tactic you think will be appropriate. Sometimes, the best bet might just be to turn the radar on and watch for him to surface, or else set up a barrier with the MAD. Sonobuoys should not ALWAYS be the answer. They're one tool in your toolbox.

[Beer]

Buoy Spacing is a function of the detection ranges of the Target of interest.
I would recommend using show truth and do some testing on various targets to determine the ranges of what you intend to hunt, noting layer location and various buoys type. Generally most P-3C activity is passive only.

Be sure to practice ROE, that would include Classifying the target before you go weapons free, that means a visual, Acoustic Data, or ESM confirming an unknown sub is in fact the target of interest. This is tough with a those pesky targets with the short ranges, but it is also the real life challenges faced by the crews who do this day to day.

Beer

[Deadeye313]

In a P-3, actually, you can confirm, without a doubt, whether a contact is a sub. If the MAD sensor also gives a SAD spike, it can only be a sub. And unless you're playing with show allies off, you can be pretty sure it's the enemy sub.

[Fitz62STG]

Look for threat frequencies on the buoy and then go directional. That's real world experience talking. :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

[Leo2006]

All very interesting info.. does anyone know of where i can find the pdfs that were on onionwarrior.com as the site seems to be down.

[OneShot]

Check out the Commanders Academy & Dive Center (CADC) Download section and you will find it. SubGuru has it on his page as well.