View Full Version : Periscope look interval
What do you use to judge periscope look interval for various platforms.I believe that the USN use a spears wheel,more details gratefully received.
Kurushio
05-19-06, 12:09 PM
I thought enemy AI couldn't detect masts?
What do you use to judge periscope look interval for various platforms.I believe that the USN use a spears wheel,more details gratefully received.
Unfortunately more detail about US periscope search routines and mast exposure considerations will not be forthcoming. I'd lose my job very very fast.
In-game it's a moot point. Masts cannot be seen by radar or by naked eye.
It was not just usn practice I was interested in,anybody else have any info on how to compute look interval?
FERdeBOER
05-19-06, 06:02 PM
Well, in Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising, the procedure is making a fast turn watching the sky for planes/helos, then another to the horizon and then lower the scope as fast as they can.
All of this is recorded in a videotape and they look at it after that, to see in slow motion if there was anything.
I don't know if this is the real procedure, but, as said before, in game the masts are not detectable by radar, so is no a risk to take a look :nope:
I have not played dw for a while but I cannot believe that the masts are not detectable-that must be worth changing in a future mod.
SeaQueen you are always into the mathematical side of game play,how do you compute look interval?
LuftWolf
05-19-06, 06:08 PM
I have not played dw for a while but I cannot believe that the masts are not detectable-that must be worth changing in a future mod.
A mod can't touch this.
In fact, even SCS can't really change this without some major changes to everything.
So, in other words, lets press for this for the sequel to DW. ;)
Luftwolf do you know how to compute look interval?
goldorak
05-19-06, 06:27 PM
So, in other words, lets press for this for the sequel to DW. ;)
Does this mean that DW is a dead end ?
No future platforms ?
In this case I prefer that SCS stop considering future platforms, fixes what has to be fixed in DW and sell it as DW 2 (with a great graphical improvement this time and support for antialising and anisotropic filtering and also native support for 32 bit graphics).
No need to answer, just some stray thoughts that ended on this post hehe..... :rotfl:
SeaQueen
05-19-06, 07:16 PM
I have not played dw for a while but I cannot believe that the masts are not detectable-that must be worth changing in a future mod.
SeaQueen you are always into the mathematical side of game play,how do you compute look interval?
I really can't tell you this one. In the game it doesn't matter. Leave it alone. Expose as you need to.
LuftWolf
05-19-06, 08:09 PM
Luftwolf do you know how to compute look interval?
Sorry, I don't.
swimsalot
05-19-06, 09:26 PM
Find the court proceedings regarding the LA Class that surfaced into a Japanese Trawler a few years ago (Greeneville I think). They transcripts are available online, I think through CNN links.
During the "trial", there was extensive discussion about periscope search routines, including exactly how long, what depth, effect of sea state/weather conditions on visibility, angle of bow, relative height of target, etc. Very in depth review of current USN procedures.
Whoever said they would loose their job for talking about it, umm, whatever.
It's not classified reading.
Kinda interesting though.
****Edit: Here's the link to the transcript of the proceedings; Periscope dicussion begins on line 00159 and continues for 3 days worth of testimony, I believe.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/sub.collision/session3.6.html
If you're into real life ops, they go into very specific details about several areas os sub operations.
And it's all unclassified :roll:
The current serach routines are.
They have changed, largely because we keep running into things. Roll your eyes all you wish, but I should know whether the information is classified or not, my job is to teach it to junior officers.
swimsalot
05-19-06, 10:20 PM
If the current visual search routine is vastly different than what was done a few years ago, I would be surprised.
Do they go clockwise now instead of counter-clockwise?
Does the Captain clap his hands 3 times and yell "ooga-ooga-ooga" when the scope comes up?
How much difference could there be?
But I will accept your statement that things are done differently now, and it's highly classified.
By the way, anyone ever notice this: Have ya ever met a guy online that was a mess specialist, hull-tech, or plain old Airman?
everyone was a Navy Seal, Army Recon, Naval Aviator, etc.
Amazing, I awlays had good food in the Navy, saw lot's of cooks, but I never see em online. Everyone was the skipper, but no Gilligans.
Wierd, huh?
Gotta love the Internet mystique- no one knows what you really did :)
LuftWolf
05-19-06, 10:23 PM
They have changed, largely because we keep running into things.
Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty good reason to change your procedures.
Stealth is no good if the odd trawler occasionally intercepts your boat in open ocean...
LuftWolf
05-19-06, 10:26 PM
By the way, anyone ever notice this: Have ya ever met a guy online that was a mess specialist, hull-tech, or plain old Airman?
everyone was a Navy Seal, Army Recon, Naval Aviator, etc.
Amazing, I awlays had good food in the Navy, saw lot's of cooks, but I never see em online. Everyone was the skipper, but no Gilligans.
Wierd, huh?
Gotta love the Internet mystique- no one knows what you really did
That's most likely because the internet is selective for people who make more money that average people, and, in general, what you do "in regular life" and what you do in the military are roughly equivalent... so when your average PFC or airman gets out, he doesn't go on the internet and start debating sonar sensitivities and torpedo wire break parameters.
And, yes, I've met plenty of grunts online at my CM gaming club, http://webandofbrothers.de/index.htm .
To clarify, our continuous search routine is not what is considered so sensitive. Not a lot has change with that, because really, how many different ways are there to spin around in a circle?
What is very sensitive (because it plays to our detectability) is interrupted search...when we do it, why we do it, and how. That has not only changed, it is continually changing, and that is what was alluded to with a question referring to look interval. I cannot answer those questions, though I can direct you to apply common sense and use range rate/relative speed to figure it out (just how fast can a 20kt contact force me deep?)
I don't mean to get snotty, but it seems a bit silly to call me out because I claim a bit of information is classified when we're talking about submarine warfare. It seems as though it would be obvious that a lot of tactical guidance can't be posted in here, and this subject in particular has no bearing on gameplay anyway.
I have never claimed to be anything other than what I am: an active-duty FT (weapons/tactics guy) who works at one of the US submarine schools. If you don't like that, I have suggestions for where you can place your feelings about me.
swimsalot
05-19-06, 10:58 PM
And my point, without being snotty, is that anyone can be anything they want on the internet.
With regards,
Bill Clinton
LuftWolf
05-19-06, 11:01 PM
Henson, don't worry, your information, knowledge, and experience is MUCH appreciated here. :up:
I personally thank you for your insights, as you have helped us with our mod work a considerable degree.
Cheers,
David
Wildcat
05-19-06, 11:01 PM
Swimsalot a little respect is in order. Don't disrespect someone because you refuse to believe whatever.
I served in artillery. I can answer some questions about artillery. If someone asks me something sensitive, I'm not going to tell them. Don't believe me? Well, fine, I don't care.. but be polite about it!
TLAM Strike
05-19-06, 11:16 PM
Does the Captain clap his hands 3 times and yell "ooga-ooga-ooga" when the scope comes up? I think I'm going to do this from now on
OOOGA OOGA OOGA ALL HAIL KING NEPTUNE! MAY HE MAKE OUR TORPEDOES RUN TRUE!
and then we sacrifice Luftwolf....
By the way, anyone ever notice this: Have ya ever met a guy online that was a mess specialist, hull-tech, or plain old Airman?
everyone was a Navy Seal, Army Recon, Naval Aviator, etc.
Amazing, I awlays had good food in the Navy, saw lot's of cooks, but I never see em online. Because my dad is computer illiterate. Otherwise you might be talking to an honest to god Aviation Store Keeper and lowly E-3. He can fold a mean shirt or pants, and he will be amazing you with his stories on how he was on an Aircraft Carrier... once... for about a week... close to shore or how he got out of the Navy early. He proudly served in the Navy out in the middle of the desert…
LuftWolf
05-19-06, 11:22 PM
and then we sacrifice Luftwolf
That's odd, I was voted in my high school yearbook as Most Likely to Be Sacraficed to the Gods of Naval Counter-Detection...
Sea Demon
05-20-06, 12:13 AM
By the way, anyone ever notice this: Have ya ever met a guy online that was a mess specialist, hull-tech, or plain old Airman?
Well. Before I graduated college, I was a plain old USAF Senior Airman. :rock: :88) Aircrew Life Support specialist.
What else isn't modelled accurately in DW?Submarines first please.
OneShot
05-20-06, 06:45 PM
The list is pretty long or rather short, depending on your point of view. As we all know by now, masts are not modelled - for humans. There are other points, but I guess the bubbleheads can elaborate better on them. As for the P-3, for example the Harpoon (only the SLAM-ER version) is not modelled.
But if you wanna get a feeling for life in a sub (which is definitly not modelled in DW) ... try this :
HOW TO SIMULATE LIFE IN THE NAVY
1. Buy a dumpster, paint it gray and live in it for 6 months straight.
2. Run all of the piping and wires inside your house on the outside of the walls.
3. Pump 10 inches of nasty, crappy water into your basement, then pump it out, clean up, and paint the basement "deck gray."
4. Every couple of weeks, dress up in your best clothes and go the scummiest part of town, find the most run down, trashy bar you can, pay $10 per beer until you're hammered, then walk home in the freezing cold.
5. Perform a weekly disassembly and inspection of your lawnmower.
6. On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays turn your water temperature up to 200 degrees, then on Tuesday and Thursday turn it down to 10 degrees. On Saturdays, and Sundays declare to your entire family that they used too much water during the week, so all showering is secured.
7. Raise your bed to within 6 inches of the ceiling.
8. Have your next door neighbor come over each day at 5am, and blow a whistle so loud that Helen Keller could hear it and shout "Reveille, Reveille, all hands heave out and trice up".
9. Have your mother-in-law write down everything she's going to do the following day, then have her make you stand in the back yard at 6am and read it to you.
10. Eat the raunchiest Mexican food you can find for three days straight, then lock yourself out of the bathroom for 12 hours, and hang a sign on the door that reads "Secured-contact OA division at X-3053."
11. Submit a request form to your father-in-law, asking if it's ok for you to leave your house before 3pm.
12. Invite 200 of your not-so-closest friends to come over, then board up all the windows and doors to your house for 6 months. After the 6 months is up, take down the boards, wave at your friends and family through the front window of your home...you can't leave until the next day you have duty.
13. Shower with above-mentioned friends.
14. Make your family qualify to operate all the appliances in your home (i.e. Dishwasher operator, blender technician, etc.).
15. Walk around your car for 4 hours checking the tire pressure every 15 minutes.
16. Sit in your car and let it run for 4 hours before going anywhere. This is to ensure your engine is properly "lighted off."
17. Empty all the garbage bins in your house, and sweep your driveway 3 times a day, whether they need it or not. (Now sweepers, start your brooms, clean sweep down fore and aft, empty all ****cans over the fantail)
18. Repaint your entire house once a month.
19. Cook all of your food blindfolded, groping for any spice and seasoning you can get your hands on.
20.Use eighteen scoops of budget coffee grounds per pot, and allow each pot to sit 5 hours before drinking.
21. Have your neighbor collect all your mail for a month, read your magazines, and randomly lose every 5th item.
22. Spend $20,000 on a satellite system for your TV, but only watch CNN and the Weather Channel.
23. Avoid watching TV with the exception of movies which are played in the middle of the night. Have the family vote on which movie to watch and then show a different one.
24. Have your 5-year-old cousin give you a haircut with goat shears.
25. Sew back pockets to the front of your pants.
26. Spend 2 weeks in the red-light districts of Europe, and call it "world travel."
27. Attempt to spend 5 years working at McDonalds, and NOT get promoted.
28. Ensure that any promotions you do get are from stepping on the dead bodies of your co-workers.
29. Needle gun the aluminum siding on your house after your neighbors have gone to bed.
30. When your children are in bed, run into their room with a megaphone,and shout at the top of your lungs that your home is under attack, and order them to man their battle stations. ("General quarters, general quarters, all hands man your battle stations")
31. Make your family menu a week ahead of time and do so without checking the pantry and refrigerator.
32. Post a menu on the refrigerator door informing your family that you are having steak for dinner. Then make them wait in line for at least an hour, when they finally get to the kitchen, tell them that you are out of steak, but you have dried ham or hot dogs. Repeat daily until they don't pay attention to the menu any more so they just ask for hot dogs.
33.When baking a cake, prop up one side of the pan while it is in the oven. Spread icing on real thick to level it off.
34. In the middle of January, place a podium at the end of your driveway. Have you family stand watches at the podium, rotating at 4-hour intervals.
35. Lock yourself and your family in your house for 6 weeks. Then tell them that at the end of the 6th week you're going to take them to Disneyland for "weekend liberty." When the end of the 6th week rolls around, inform them that Disneyland has been canceled due to the fact that they need to get ready for Engineering-certification, and that it will be another week before they can leave the house.
36. In your grim, gray dumpster (refer to #1), with 200 of your not-so-closest friend (cite para. 12) regardless of gender, suffer through PMS!
37. Sleep on the shelf in your closet. Replace the closet door with a curtain. Have you wife whip open the curtain about 3 hours after you go to sleep. She should then shine a flashlight in your eyes and mumble "Sorry, wrong rack."
38. Renovate your bathroom. Build a wall across the middle of your bathtub, move the shower head to chest level. When you take showers, make sure you shut off the water while you soap down.
39. When there is a thunderstorm in your area, find a wobbly rocking chair and rock as hard as you can until you become nauseous. have a supply of stale crackers in your shirt pocket.
40. Put lube oil in your humidifier and set it on high.
41. For ex-engineering types: leave the lawn mower running in your living room eight hours a day.
42. Have the paperboy give you a haircut.
43.Once a week, blow compressed air up your chimney, making sure the wind carries the soot onto your neighbors house. Ignore his complaints.
44. Every other month buy green or red marine primer and put it in a paint sprayer. Spray it over the roof of your house onto your neighbors car. Ignore his complaints.
45. Lock wire the lug nuts on your car.
46. Buy a trash compactor, but use it only once a week. Store the garbage on the other side of your bathtub.
47. Get up every night around midnight and have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on stale bread.
48. Set your alarm clock to go off at random during the night, jump up and get dressed as fast as you can making sure you button up the top button on your shirt, stuff you pants into your socks. Run out into the backyard and uncoil the garden hose.
49. Once a month, take every major appliance apart and put them back together again.
50. Install a fluorescent lamp under the coffee table and then get under it and read books.
51. Raise the thresholds and lower the top sills of your front and back doors so that you either trip or bang your head every time you pass through one of them.
52. Every so often, throw the cat in the pool and shout "Man overboard, starboard side" Then run into the house and sweep all the pots and dishes off the counter. Yell at the wife and kids for not having the kitchen "stowed for sea."
53. Put on the headphones from your stereo set, but don't plug them in. Hang a paper cup around your neck with string. Go stand in front of yours tove. Say ... to no one in particular "Stove manned and ready" Stand there for three or four hours. And say again to no one in particular "stove secured." Roll up your headphones and paper cup and place them in a box.
P.S. : This is quite old, but I still love it :rock:
Kurushio
05-20-06, 07:03 PM
My field of expertise has nothing to do with the navy, though I've been on the internet long enough to know when someone is probably telling the truth or they're making things up just for the attention. And Henson in now way seems like someone vying for attention. Come on Swimsalot, use your brain!....look...he hasn't even got a sig for God's sake.
Henson...your knowledge is much appreciated by us simple folk. Simply in awe my friend. Carry on and ignore us envious mortals. :up:
sonar732
05-20-06, 07:15 PM
Hey Oneshot...don't forget running out of fresh milk and placing a 'skulls and bones' emblem on the dispenser with the label of 'White Death'. :rotfl:
Kurushio
05-20-06, 07:18 PM
LOL Oneshot...that was excellent. I read it all.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Kazuaki Shimazaki II
05-20-06, 09:16 PM
In this case I prefer that SCS stop considering future platforms, fixes what has to be fixed in DW and sell it as DW 2 (with a great graphical improvement this time and support for antialising and anisotropic filtering and also native support for 32 bit graphics).
Better make them optional then. Some of us still have crap graphics cards on laptops - if you make the picture too pretty our frame rate would drop to nothing assuming it doesn't crash first...
Bellman
05-20-06, 09:46 PM
OS: Nice one. :rotfl:
goldorak
05-21-06, 03:07 AM
Better make them optional then. Some of us still have crap graphics cards on laptops - if you make the picture too pretty our frame rate would drop to nothing assuming it doesn't crash first...
Of course, that was implicit, just as is the case for DW where you can disable 3d.
Oneshot a very true portrayal of life with the grey funnel line,can I borrow your mower by the way?
Sub Sailor
05-21-06, 10:50 AM
Gentleman, I believe the purpose of this site is to exchange information about a simulation we all seem to CARE about. What each of us were or are is really not all that important.
I am, if not the oldest at least in the running for that, on this site. I am a retired Master Chief Machinist Mate NUKE and a Submariner. I started on the boats in 1962, or when Moby Dick was a minnow. I retired in 1981. I am also a retired Educator and Teacher of The Year in 1989 in Idaho, so what. I am on the site because I love Subs and these simulations and usually the stimulating give and take is enjoyable and informative.
So what say we get back to that and not question who someone is or claims to be. I mean what the hell, we ain't going to get together for beers this afternoon or probably ever. If someone is blowing smoke it usually shows. Lets enjoy the site and share information.
Respectfully,
Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)
An Old but Proud Nuke and Bubble head.
swimsalot
05-22-06, 09:13 PM
To all on these threads, I apologize for my comments. In my line of work, I deal with lying dirtbags all day, and since I'm afraid of my wife, love my kids, and cant kick the dog (he bites), the only place I am allowed to vent is online :-?
I have no doubt about the truthfulness of anyone's statements on these boards.
I have been "soured" by dealings with other forums, where some people make claims that are later proven to be false.
Again, my sincere apologies to Mr Henson and all others.
The Navy I served in was full of excellent men,(no women on my boat at the time!) and I think these forums have the same caliber.
With respect,
Swims
What else isn't modelled accurately in DW?Submarines first please.
the crew
usual crew at MP match are not enought trained
:rotfl:
To clarify, our continuous search routine is not what is considered so sensitive. Not a lot has change with that, because really, how many different ways are there to spin around in a circle?
What is very sensitive (because it plays to our detectability) is interrupted search...when we do it, why we do it, and how. That has not only changed, it is continually changing, and that is what was alluded to with a question referring to look interval. I cannot answer those questions, though I can direct you to apply common sense and use range rate/relative speed to figure it out (just how fast can a 20kt contact force me deep?)
I don't mean to get snotty, but it seems a bit silly to call me out because I claim a bit of information is classified when we're talking about submarine warfare. It seems as though it would be obvious that a lot of tactical guidance can't be posted in here, and this subject in particular has no bearing on gameplay anyway.
I have never claimed to be anything other than what I am: an active-duty FT (weapons/tactics guy) who works at one of the US submarine schools. If you don't like that, I have suggestions for where you can place your feelings about me.
Don't sweat him. It is obvious to the people that matter who is/was a bubblehead and who isn't. There will always be a snotty nosed 13 year old somewhere to mock your reluctance to discuss certain subjects. It is called the silent service for a reason. Now head down to the grotto and have a drink :sunny:
What else isn't modelled accurately in DW?Submarines first please.
So many things, I would suggest a thread just to begin to list them.
The ESM/EW system is totally abstracted. Torpedo performance,acoustics, and even steering are all inaccurate. Ship handling characteristics aren't even close. Acoustics detection ranges and radiated sound levels are also highly adjusted. Even a lot of frequencies, especially active are way off. Periscope lacks many features. Weapons loading times, air usage, missing modes from sonar systems. I could go on for many more. Problem is detailing some of them gives up info that no one who has/does work with it will give up. SImply not going to happen.
I mean many things are suprisingly close. But the details are altered to help gameplay and hide much classified data. In the end I and I am sure any bubblehead here will say it is as close as anything else out there and details a lot more stuff more realistically than I ever thought would be possible. I would love to have a 100% true to life simulation, but understand why we probably won't get one and realize it would probably be boring to most and not sell that well. It is hard enough to get people to actually learn this much simplified version. IMHO
I mean many things are suprisingly close. But the details are altered to help gameplay and hide much classified data. In the end I and I am sure any bubblehead here will say it is as close as anything else out there and details a lot more stuff more realistically than I ever thought would be possible.
I would say alarmingly close. I was shocked that the environmental modeling in this game is actually better than it is in some of my older trainers at the schoolhouse (though the new ones with AWESIM blow it out of the water). On the other hand, US Towed Array sonar is pretty silly, active intercept is a joke, and narrowband on submarines is completely out to lunch (OHP TA fixed a lot of those differences). Weapons are getting as close to reality as they ever will with the new mods, but there are some things that will hopefully always be different in the game.
This game was good enough to hook a guy who lives and breathes tactics. I absolutely LOVE my job, and this is the closest I can get to it while on shore duty. I haven't done MP yet because I simply don't have any time to commit with work lately, but I'm looking forward to it someday. I'm glad I found this forum, you seem like a good bunch of guys.
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