All seeing Helos

[drEaPer]

Greetings,

got another phenomenon I need you guys to help me with. It happens to me, that when I use the FFG and its helos, the helos magically put enemy subs on the link without there beeing any chanec that they could have spotted them.

Let me give one example.
I started my ASW helo, and directly after it was airborne, it detected a LA688 about 10nm away and put it on the link. There was no buoy in the water yet and the player told me he was slow, not surfacing, not using radar.

Some min later the 2nd enemy sub had been put on the link by one of my helos (quick launch was activated, so I had both helos in the air pretty quick). The Kilo also wasnt surfacing or using radar. It was all the way at the other end of the mission area!

One helo was put on accoutic, one was on radar.

Can anyone explain this all seeing eye behavior?
I like to play the FFG but this feels like cheating!

cheers!

[OKO]

If you use LWAMI, helo often use the dipping sonar.
they don't with stock DW.
But he shouldn't be able to catch you with his dipping more than 10 miles away.
And when the sub is face or rear to the dipping, the detection distance is really very close.
less than 2 miles.

[OKO]

One helo was put on accoutic, one was on radar.

this concern only your personnal choice of use =>

If you switched to radar, you could use the REMRO, but you can't use the helo to connect to buoys

If you switched to acoustic, you could use GRAMs with helo but you can't change the REMRO status.

In both side, helo will continue to work at GRAMs and at radar (if you switched ON the REMRO with radar mode before switching to acoustic)

[Molon Labe]

I believe LW/Ami actually addressed a lot of the stock link problems.

[Deathblow]

That's a good question. Was this a stock or modded game?

[drEaPer]

Its was not modded. Stock DW 1.03

OKO: The first helo was on accoustic the second on radar. I established link with the first to read the buoys and was getting link data for surface contacts from the 2nd.

The thing is, that the first enemy sub was spotted by helo #1 shortly after it took off and the 2nd sub was spotted FAR FAR away.
And the "Age" of the link contact didnt increase! Its age was all the time 0:00 which means there is a plattform on my side that is tracking the sub. But who? My partner was in a 688 waaay off, and the helos just took off.
Guess some aliens from outta space used their magic device o\/O

[LuftWolf]

I'm pretty sure the combination of the playable sensors on the helo, the stock helo doctrines, and the way the helo is launched means with the uber sensitive helo active sonar (the stock helo dipping sonar in active mode is about 1000 times more sensitive than the SeaWolf active sonar, it just has a shorter hardcap of around 20000 yards), the AI helo will sometimes detect contacts at the moment of launch, without giving an Active Intercept return for the detected contacts.

Then, because the stock game doesn't allow the helos to drop their contacts, they are tracked indefinately by the helo once they are detected.

Stock DW. Fun, yeah, lots of fun. LWAMI, which fixes all of these problem, is a cheat, and ruins the game. ;) :P :lol: :rotfl:

[drEaPer]

No, LWAMI puts in sonar values which are just "estimated" not realistic... No one was on an AKula and I doubt your sonar modes is more realitic. It is just your and your informants view of things. Unless you get akula sonarmen to playtest and/or classified information, all you do is shaping the game to what you think is more realistic.
If you made a mod with all your fixes but without changing the sonar balance of akulas, 688, SW, kilo, I would love it. Fixing VLADs, torps not exploding on CMs, 65cm being wakehomer.. its all cool, cause that is information which is purely objective and can easily verified. Maybe messing around with sound propagation is on the edge of the acceptable (I doubt you know a professor of physics and I doubt you made studies about the actual behavior) but I think you just go too far by changing the sensors sicne you never ever been on an akula whatsoever. I play the mod, yes, but only if ppl ask me to, because I wanna play and the community is small already, so I play whenever I can.. LWAMI or not... Im in kinda some conflict, cause as I said, there is much cool stuff in it, but to many estimates...
Ok sorry, I dont wanan discuss LWAMI here, this thread is abut AI helo making trouble in MP on player controlled FFG (You got me in your icq list, if you wanna, just send me a msg there).
Your explanation makes sense. What can be done to avoid it?

[Molon Labe]

The stock game is broken in many ways. The solution is to stop using it, since we have a working alternative!

[LuftWolf]

No, LWAMI puts in sonar values which are just "estimated" not realistic... No one was on an AKula and I doubt your sonar modes is more realitic. It is just your and your informants view of things. Unless you get akula sonarmen to playtest and/or classified information, all you do is shaping the game to what you think is more realistic.
If you made a mod with all your fixes but without changing the sonar balance of akulas, 688, SW, kilo, I would love it. Fixing VLADs, torps not exploding on CMs, 65cm being wakehomer.. its all cool, cause that is information which is purely objective and can easily verified. Maybe messing around with sound propagation is on the edge of the acceptable (I doubt you know a professor of physics and I doubt you made studies about the actual behavior) but I think you just go too far by changing the sensors sicne you never ever been on an akula whatsoever.

Well one thing can't be denied... my informant is certainly better than the one SCS is using. :rotfl:

Remember, a Collins class sub is as loud as a Han! :down:

Akula sphere sonar is just as sensitive as a SW! :down:

The 688i doesn't have a Tb-23! :down:

The Miasnikovs Papers and the calculations based off of them that jsteed, finiteless, and Amizaur did are totally made up! :down:

What you guys don't realize is that this stuff is NOT pulled from thin air. We have data, and its good data, certainly much better than whatever crap Sonalysts contracted out for.

I've never been on an Akula, but this work was done before me. In fact, this work had been done for DWX, before it was permanently cancelled. If thomas were here, would you still be saying "oh the mod data... its all just made up!".

What a bunch of crap... good thing I really don't care. The mod will continue to improve, even if the ignorance of certain parts of the community does not.

One quick question, has anyone played a modded game where there was a cheater? :hmm:

[hunter301]

The stock game is broken in many ways. The solution is to stop using it, since we have a working alternative!


And what is the alternative?
....forgive me I have been away for some time meditating in a tibetan temple.

[LuftWolf]

LuftWolf and Amizaurs Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod, now in version 3.02! :know:

(link at the bottom of my signature, shameless plug)

[Bubblehead Nuke]

this work had been done for DWX, before it was permanently cancelled.

When did this happen? I played Sub command a LOT and loved SCX IMMENSLY and was looking forward to a DWX.

[LuftWolf]

this work had been done for DWX, before it was permanently cancelled.

When did this happen? I played Sub command a LOT and loved SCX IMMENSLY and was looking forward to a DWX.

What happened is Thomas had twins and dropped off the SubSim radar.

The only thing SCX gives you that is possible in DW that LWAMI doesn't have at the moment is new 3-d models and new non-playable platforms, and these are coming. And in fact, LWAMI has done a lot with DW that isn't done or possible in SC or SCX.

So I'm not sure why people are waiting for a mod on which there has been no news in over a year. :hmm:

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Just never heard that it is a dead item.

And in fact, LWAMI has done a lot with DW that isn't done or possible in SC or SCX.

As far as what you get with your mod, I love it. I like how you have taking a lot of the 'arcadish' things out and made it more.. well.. tedious. That is what ASW warfare is like. Myself and TopTorp served on a boat together. I have seen the fatigue level that can be attained when trying to do our jobs. The CONSTANT mental 'What if's"

Do I WANT that in DW at RL levels???? No. But I like to have some of it in there so that there is a taste of what we did.

[Molon Labe]

Just never heard that it is a dead item.

And in fact, LWAMI has done a lot with DW that isn't done or possible in SC or SCX.

As far as what you get with your mod, I love it. I like how you have taking a lot of the 'arcadish' things out and made it more.. well.. tedious. That is what ASW warfare is like. Myself and TopTorp served on a boat together. I have seen the fatigue level that can be attained when trying to do our jobs. The CONSTANT mental 'What if's"

Do I WANT that in DW at RL levels???? No. But I like to have some of it in there so that there is a taste of what we did.

Nice to know I'm not alone, even though I've never served. Cheers! :rock:

[drEaPer]

No, LWAMI puts in sonar values which are just "estimated" not realistic... No one was on an AKula and I doubt your sonar modes is more realitic. It is just your and your informants view of things. Unless you get akula sonarmen to playtest and/or classified information, all you do is shaping the game to what you think is more realistic.
If you made a mod with all your fixes but without changing the sonar balance of akulas, 688, SW, kilo, I would love it. Fixing VLADs, torps not exploding on CMs, 65cm being wakehomer.. its all cool, cause that is information which is purely objective and can easily verified. Maybe messing around with sound propagation is on the edge of the acceptable (I doubt you know a professor of physics and I doubt you made studies about the actual behavior) but I think you just go too far by changing the sensors sicne you never ever been on an akula whatsoever.

Well one thing can't be denied... my informant is certainly better than the one SCS is using. :rotfl:

Remember, a Collins class sub is as loud as a Han! :down:

Akula sphere sonar is just as sensitive as a SW! :down:

The 688i doesn't have a Tb-23! :down:

The Miasnikovs Papers and the calculations based off of them that jsteed, finiteless, and Amizaur did are totally made up! :down:

What you guys don't realize is that this stuff is NOT pulled from thin air. We have data, and its good data, certainly much better than whatever crap Sonalysts contracted out for.

I've never been on an Akula, but this work was done before me. In fact, this work had been done for DWX, before it was permanently cancelled. If thomas were here, would you still be saying "oh the mod data... its all just made up!".

What a bunch of crap... good thing I really don't care. The mod will continue to improve, even if the ignorance of certain parts of the community does not.

One quick question, has anyone played a modded game where there was a cheater? :hmm:

I already acknowledged that these kinds of changes are cool. But you cannot change things where you just have a vague idea about the real systems (russian sonars). Thats guessing. You always talk about having good informants, you always say "This is like that, and this is a fact" but you never actually works scientifically by giving us sources, where this information comes from. If you proceed like that in a university / diploma thesis, you wont succeed. Just pretending that somehting is like you want it to be doesnt make it like that. Fx the 688 has a tb23, ok, but pointing this out just means you didnt really read what I said but you read what you wanna see in my post. I said that thoses changes are exactly what I like, cause they are revisable. But messing around with sensiveties without documenting your sources is no way to work scientifically. And if you pretend to make a "realism" mod, you need to work scientifally so your work is verfifyable.
Also, by the way you react, you show totally that its not just about the work, but that it gets personally as soon as someone os criticising your work... psychologically speaking this coulde make one wonder if this is not just all about making it more realistic but also something about being "right and wrong" ... and unless you dcoument your sources and the actual changes (and their values) changing sensiveties of sonars is just a guess... (at least if feels like a guess to the user). If you say its not pulled out of the air, ok, document your sources and why you think these are better and its cool. :)

cheers!

[LuftWolf]

Personal maybe... but you and others are missing the point and that's why I get frustated.

I'm not getting paid, this is my hobby, we do our best to only make improvements that seem reasonable to us and others. Dangerous Waters is a better game and more fun with LWAMI than without, in my opinion and the opinion of people whose ideas have been very informative for me in the past.

That's really the only point.

Everything else is just superstition.

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

If you say its not pulled out of the air, ok, document your sources and why you think these are better and its cool.

How about this... find sources that prove that I'm wrong about something, and I'll be happy to change anything in the Mod, so long as it doesn't break gameplay. :up:

This is the way we have always worked. http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41581&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

(I think what frustrates me most about these kinds of discussions is that people don't realize the stock database values are often arbitrary and sometimes senseless... perhaps it takes some familiarity with the database to realize this clearly)

Cheers,
David

[drEaPer]

Personal maybe... but you and others are missing the point and that's why I get frustated.

I'm not getting paid, this is my hobby, we do our best to only make improvements that seem reasonable to us and others. Dangerous Waters is a better game and more fun with LWAMI than without, in my opinion and the opinion of people whose ideas have been very informative for me in the past.

That's really the only point.

Everything else is just superstition.

Cheers,
David


I doubt this attitude would would help one well if he has to prove his thesis to dr. or prof.
Prof: Why you think your simulation is simulating real world conditions more realistic than the other.
You: Because they are more reasonable.
Come on....
You say Im missing your point without really reacing to my point at all... Guess thats called ignorant? Dont know.
Put all your reason for the changes in the readme or in a differrnt file and its cool.
Additonally, you say with LWAMI its more fun, but I know quite some ppl who dont play LWAMI because of exactly that reason: Some think its less fun. The MP experience changes alot. It changes in a big way. But they like the other changes about the military hardware, changes which dont change the detection ranges but change the equipment. Unfortunately you cannot get those fixes for more realistic equipment without also getting a whole shift in the detection ranges.

You say Im missing the point, what point?
I never claiemd that you get paid for this, I never defamed your work. I never dishonered that you put many hours in it. You just interpret what I say. Read more carefully.
So what point am I missing, please tell me. You are totally evading what I said and saying Im missing the point *pah*. :)
This post is exaclty what I ciriticiseed: Working by "opinion", what _you_ think is _reasonable_. Opinions and thinking that somehting
is reasonable has nothing to do with realism. Working scientifally has to do with realism. :)


cheers!


PS: Dont get me wrong, I still respect your work, as I respect every honest effort. I just dont think honest effort equals truth.

[LuftWolf]

I think the ultimate point is that I don't have anything at all to lose by not doing anything you want. :P :lol:

Let's be real.

Our time working on DW stuff is limited... we try to have the stuff in the mod that is published be done, meaning more correct that what was there and at least as bug-free, so we don't have to go back to it unless we want to make specific improvements. So we rely on users in a lot of cases to check us (like any developer) in cases where we have made oversites.

Like I said, I would be very happy if you or anyone else could point to specific aspects of the Mod they think are wrong and give me some sources that we can work with to make the mod a better reflection of reality, within gameplay limits of course. :)

[Deathblow]

I would like to point out to drEaPer that this is not a thesis its a game...

and he's got a point... if the burden was put on yourself to *prove* that the mod values are in fact wrong... then the problem would be turned around and the arguments now ensued on your own data...

... pretty much circular logic.

[Orm]

I love so much DW as I play it as a stock or mod. I really don’t care which one, as I have say previously, I get killed and I win with both versions. LwAmi is a great mod (and thanks for this work you made for us) for a stock sim that has many flows. And no Molon, you are not the only one to defend this mod as I do it also.

BUT, drEaper has his point also. With an academic background, we always learn at the University that, no matter what paper, essay or theory (genius, good or bad), we have to be critic before making our mind. And that’s the problem with you LuftWolf (and others) as we cannot critic you in a good matter without be named as ignorant, stupid, cheaters, and so on …

As a member of a virtual fleet, I remember when LwAmi was introduced to us. And my first question was, I think legitimate, what are the credentials of the makers of this mod. Everybody was telling that is realism but how can I be sure that it is true. You are talking of informants. What is the meaning of that? And I can understand the question about your knowledge’s of physics. Are you using specialists to get all the information you need?

You see a lot of open questions that were never answer, even to drEaper when he was asking you in good matter.

But don’t d forget that I love your mod before flaming me. :D

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I already acknowledged that these kinds of changes are cool. But you cannot change things where you just have a vague idea about the real systems (russian sonars).

And how do you know the Sonalysts guys really know about the systems?

Anyway, at the present LWAMI setting, generally the Russian Nrd is about 1/3rd (+2, which equates to rough 4dB less sensitive) as sensitive as the American. This is actually in accordance to, for example, here (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/971.htm).

It is not hard to understand why, too, at least for the bow sonar. Ignoring the tech gap, a spherical sonar simply allows for more reception area, at least twice as much (half the bow versus the whole bow). The Russians would have to come up with some real magic to compensate for something like that.

If you ask the most dubious part about all this, it is the low washout limits in Russian systems. But that one wasn't LW's fault. It is Sonalyst. I'd be curious to hear what sources or even what reasoning they used when they decided this.

If you proceed like that in a university / diploma thesis, you wont succeed.

1) This is not a thesis and you are not his prof.
2) When you say he has no right to change a value, you are de facto defending the original value.
3) Something that's "merely" reasonable is still far more likely to be close to correct than something pulled out of your foot.

[Molon Labe]

It's not like SCS proved the values it used. As the Collins example shows, a lot of the stock DB is pure crap.

[LuftWolf]

And that’s the problem with you LuftWolf (and others) as we cannot critic you in a good matter without be named as ignorant, stupid, cheaters, and so on …

I'm genuinely sorry that this is your view of me.

I understand why you might feel this way.

However please understand that 95% of my time on this forum is spent: 1) conversing with players about the details of the Mod and ways to improve it 2) conversing with players and Sonalysts about issues related to DW in general and the beta testing process 3) helping new players understand the intricacies of DW.

The other 5% of my time here is spend being a total ass.

And that's just me. :up:

Cheers,
David

[Deathblow]

Don't apologize LW. All those arguments against accepting the mod values can be turned right around against accepting the stock values... Someone with a reasonable disagreement against the mod database can easily post a "why they disagree with LW&A values" as well... This whole argument is ... well... stupid. :nope:

Heck thats what the whole 33+ pages of the LW&A thread on the mod database has been... discussing the mod... with ample opprotunity for those with disagreement to contribute to the discussion as to why.

[drEaPer]

I would like to point out to drEaPer that this is not a thesis its a game...



I would like to point out to deathblow that LW is the one claiming to implement realism. So after all, there is no realism at all, since this is a game and this discussion is in fact pointless.
:)

Just because 100.00o ppl are of the opinion, it stil doesnt mean they are right, even if just one person opposed them. LW claims something he cant prove, that all I point out. SCS never claimed something like that.

People really need to start reading what a poster wrote, and dont put their own words between it. Noone said SCS values are better. They just are different. Who am I to judge which values are better?
I have no physics degree nor am I a sub sailor nor did I study the sonar sensors.


Aaaaanyway... What about the helo issue? :)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I would like to point out to deathblow that LW is the one claiming to implement realism. So after all, there is no realism at all, since this is a game and this discussion is in fact pointless.
:)

It is not hard to be more realistic than Sonalyst's database... Once you've spent 10 minutes looking around into it, you come to the conclusion they must have blown their time on everything else and threw it together 5 minutes before the game is due to sell... with their eyes closed, especially in the more rarely accessed "backyard" sections of the database.

Just because 100.00o ppl are of the opinion, it stil doesnt mean they are right, even if just one person opposed them. LW claims something he cant prove, that all I point out. SCS never claimed something like that.

Sonalysts did claim it is a professional agency.

People really need to start reading what a poster wrote, and dont put their own words between it. Noone said SCS values are better. They just are different. Who am I to judge which values are better?
I have no physics degree nor am I a sub sailor nor did I study the sonar sensors.

You have a brain and basic knowledge, do you? You can understand when you have only half the reception area on a sensor and you country is generally behind in electronics, it is pretty hard to get the same sensitivity.

During the production of LWAMI, many people particpated in SubSim, some that are sub sailors. Probably the most valuable part from the vets is to give us a clue about detection ranges. AFAIK, the ratio between the average ship's SL and sensor Nrd is generated from aggregating their testimony with the formulas.

Aaaaanyway... What about the helo issue? :)

Hasn't it been already explained to you that it was probably caused because Sonalysts made a clearly faulty database (even in LWAMI 3.02, you can still see their arbitrariness in the areas that LW didn't take a scythe to already - you might as well see them fast because I understand that LW plans to wipe them out in Version 4).

[moose1am]

Please forgive me but what is DWX. I am still new to this forum and don't know all these abbreviations.

One thing I would like to see though is for Jamie to announce that there was a 1.04 patch to fix the bugs that were not fixed by patch 1.03.

There still seems to be some issues with this game. Voice command not working when the sonar is on the broadband is one that I think should be fixed. I purchased this game because it's one of the very few games out there that used Voice Commands without having to buy Game Commander. This is really cool technology and should be made to work in Dangerous Waters.

I love the concept of having three different platforms in this game. Air, Surface and Subsurface.

I would love to see the game developers actually expand on this concept and make this game truely multiplayer and massive.

The subsurface community is smaller than most other online games that I have played in the past. By including more airplanes in DW game the number of subscribers would have the potential to increase.

That's my 2 cents from someone who is new to this game.

this work had been done for DWX, before it was permanently cancelled.

When did this happen? I played Sub command a LOT and loved SCX IMMENSLY and was looking forward to a DWX.

[Deathblow]

Aaaaanyway... What about the helo issue? :)

Your the one that steered the discussion off track with your original out the blue comments. No one even mentioned claims of realism until you brought it up. Hijacked your own thread you did.

You should read what people write. :)

[drEaPer]

No, deatblow... LW offered a fix via his mod which is irrelevant, since the issue still remains with stock DW.
What this got to do with reading what ppl write is beyond my perception. If 2 topics within on thread are too much to handle for you, ok, then Im sorry :)

Kazuaki, claiming to be a professional agency is != claiming to put in the the real world values (since this is an MP experience, and to me, being a gamer, gameplay is more important than realism)

Aaaaanyway... What about the helo issue? :)

Your the one that steered the discussion off track with your original out the blue comments. No one even mentioned claims of realism until you brought it up. Hijacked your own thread you did.



LW used the chance to advertise his mod, which is fine, but which lead to me critizsing it. Additonally I wrote:


Ok sorry, I dont wanan discuss LWAMI here, this thread is abut AI helo making trouble in MP on player controlled FFG (You got me in your icq list, if you wanna, just send me a msg there).
Your explanation makes sense. What can be done to avoid it?

Which after all has only been said cause LW makes claims he cant prove. I respect his work, I already said that, heck I even playtested it in the first versions and helped with bug reporting.
Here, I just wrote down reasons why there are players who dont wanna play with it which was initiated by LW advertising his mod as a fix :) So you should be more careful with accusing "out of the blue". :)


Discussing this topic with you guys is like talkling to politicians :) Much talk, no prove. :)
But discussing this topic in the lions cave is pretty much senseless anyway, and since I am philosophically educated, I know when to stop. So I do here. :)

cheers and have a good day :sunny:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

No, deatblow... LW offered a fix via his mod which is irrelevant, since the issue still remains with stock DW.
What this got to do with reading what ppl write is beyond my perception. If 2 topics within on thread are too much to handle for you, ok, then Im sorry :)

It is you that's not grasping the obvious. Since the problem is doctrinal and database related, you can't fix it without changing the DBs and doctrines. Which means:
1) You can continue to suffer.
2) You can use LWAMI - since you claim you don't have the first clue whether the numbers are realistic anyway, why not use it? It can't hurt.
3) You can try and parse the LWAMI stuff yourself looking for the fix only, or try and reverse-engineer what was done without looking at LWAMI's doctrinal codes. Unfortunately, you haven't been on a real SH-60R before and part of the problem is with the DB. According to you, no one should change the DB unless he happened to have experience on the real vehicle. So you can't change the DB. So you have to continue to suffer (go to 1).

Kazuaki, claiming to be a professional agency is != claiming to put in the the real world values (since this is an MP experience, and to me, being a gamer, gameplay is more important than realism)

Nor does "realism" necessarily mean "100% stick to it in every respect" and all that. That's an unrealistic expectation especially in a game model that's not 100% realistic, forcing unrealistic workarounds to achieve more realistic overall results.

A professional agency, however, should be expected to do more than just try and BS in the nether regions of the DB. One has to look at the crap (no offense, Sonalyst, but one must be honest when the AA-11 has a lower effectiveness than a PL-2) they put in for the missiles to believe it. You can come up with better values by sticking your nose in Wikipedia for 2 hours looking up weapons pages.

[Molon Labe]

I nominate the above for the "subsim post of the week" award. :-j :rotfl:

[LuftWolf]

You can come up with better values by sticking your nose in Wikipedia for 2 hours looking up weapons pages.

More like dozens of hours... at least that's what it seems like, checking each and every thing about each object. :shifty: :doh: :hulk:

I'm sure Sonalysts could have found some guy that got fired by Janes, paid him $5,000 and given him a few days... but they didn't, so we'll just do it for free.

Then when they release their next game, rather than using our work, they'll just take their same old crappy stock Fleet Command database, dust it off, and plug it in for us to fix again. :nope:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

More like dozens of hours... at least that's what it seems like, checking each and every thing about each object. :shifty: :doh: :hulk:

There aren't that many missile entries. Sure. It'd take "dozens of hours" to really do the job correctly. But just to do better than the hash that's the current situation shouldn't take that long.

[LuftWolf]

I mean dozens if you consider every single object in the database that is "not as close as it ought to be if we are really going to get serious about fixing this beotch". ;)

[Palindromeria]

if you disagree with some portion of the mod this strongly

you can

a) not use it
b) make your own.
c) swim in the Gowanus

unless LW has telekinetic powers im unaware of,

its your choice.
----------

hmmm wasnt this a thread about helos ? oh never mind ...

[Deadeye313]

AS for the helos. I like that they can find and lock targets. I find that this is one of only 2 advantages the FFG has against subs.

Also, I don't see the helos knowing where a sub is as unusual. follow my logic: A computer will always be faster than a human, that's a given. Now, if you place a dicass in the water with the helo and only moments after it goes active, the helo has a sub, think of it not as an all seeing helo, think of it as just classifying the sub quicker than a human ever could.

subs have one huge advantage over the FFG. they can go really slow and quiet and all they need to do to see the FFG is go to periscope depth and pop the periscope. The FFG can only listen or give away his position using the active sonar.

However, the FFG has only one thing to counter subs that can simply pop the periscope. The Helo that can prosecute targets almost single handidly.

Think of the helos seeing the enemy subs as simply a really really fast human. If you have the enemy sub on towed array, and/or have a tma, likely the helo knows too and will home in and find that sub. It won't look like what a person is doing, but it's roughly the same thing...just faster.

And if sub drivers get scared, they should be. The FFG was created to kill subs with helicopters. You should, by all means, not get picked up on the FFG's sensors.

The other great thing the FFG has is a towed array that tells you it has a contact, no matter how thin the broadband signature is. That little chart at the top left is incaluable.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Also, I don't see the helos knowing where a sub is as unusual. follow my logic: A computer will always be faster than a human, that's a given. Now, if you place a dicass in the water with the helo and only moments after it goes active, the helo has a sub, think of it not as an all seeing helo, think of it as just classifying the sub quicker than a human ever could.

Not really:
1) Gamewise, your description is equivalent to a FPS game where you keep getting shot to pieces by the AI from a simulated range of 400m, when it is armed with a pistol. When you complain, they explain it to you by saying a computer always has better aim than a human, and the AI used his pistol as an artillery piece at a 20 degree superelevation to get you at range...
2) Apparently, his helo just launched. The helo isn't just "fast" - it is seeing at ranges it shouldn't be able to see.
3) For the TA part, I entirely agree. Perhaps in the future, they will upgrade the towed array displays on the subs, which supposedly look a lot more like the FFGs than the forms they look like now...

[LuftWolf]

The biggest problem is that once helos and aircraft detect a contact, they NEVER stop updating the contact, even if they are 100 miles away and all their sensors are off.

Of course, there are workarounds in the doctrines, but the stock doctrines have no such features.