Crash Dive Blues!

[Der Teddy Bar]

Guys,
In beta testing of the NYGM U-boat Mod Stiebler has noted an intermittent issue where he would experience difficulty maintain depth at 1/3 ahead. Try as I might I could replicate this issue.

That is, until Observer found the answer… an Interrupted CRASH DIVE.

Let me start by saying that the interrupted crash dive behaviour is a evident in a vanilla install of SHIII 1.4b, this ‘feature’ is brought to the fore by the NYGM U-Boat Mod.

If you order a crash dive and before the u-boat reaches the crash dive depth (normally about 70 metres) you order the u-boat to another depth (higher or lower) then what happens is that the u-boat sits down by the stern at an angle of about 10 degree angle!!! The only way to get the u-boat back onto an even keel is then to order another crash dive and of course let it complete.

Due to the abundance of positive buoyancy that allows the U-Boat to hover like a Humming Bird this ‘feature’ was not seen by the player. It would have however made the u-boat sink or sink more severely when the stern of the u-boat was flooding but this is something that the player would have expected and hard to tell the difference between flooding occurances.

So if you order a crash dive ensure that you let the u-boat go the full distance, you can however change speed & direction without issue.

[Salvadoreno]

i dont get it :doh:

[Myxale]

:o
Wow, thats a pretty nifty fact there Teddy.
It's just, i can't count the times i interupted my crash dives.
I'm kind of an English Channel fanatic and there's no way to go down to the whole CD depth.

Can't belive the Vanilla is that poor.
But nevertheless, i look foward toe the cool things you guys come up with. :up:

[Mr.Werner]

crash dive and let it go the full lenght?? what are you talking about. I crash dive all the time and stop it where i want. it does...then i surface when i want...i dont see a problem.

[VonHelsching]

Nice catch.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in RL you were not able to interrup a crash dive. You had to go 60-70 meters all the way, right?

I also read somewere players cheating by pressing crash dive and then dive in order to shorten the crash dive time by a couple of seconds.

This is not tolerated by the BdU :-j

[BigBadVuk]

Wait...now u managed to confuse me...I also crash dive from time to time(5-6 per patrol) but afther that i usualy interupt that action either by going deeper(more often) or by going to PD...My instruments shows normal angle and sub is responding to all my commands normaly...So..what is this all about?Im using GW1.1

[CptGrayWolf]

Nice catch.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in RL you were not able to interrup a crash dive. You had to go 60-70 meters all the way, right?

I also read somewere players cheating by pressing crash dive and then dive in order to shorten the crash dive time by a couple of seconds.

This is not tolerated by the BdU :-j

I don't see why the chief can't level the boat at 50m... :hmm: maybe the experts out there will tell us.

[The Noob]

Another question, is i set the "Crash dive depth" in the configs to 20 Meter, does the U-Boat Submerge the same fast as if it is set to 70 Meters?

[Phylacista]

Hmm I interrupt crash dive almost every time - most times I go deeper. So it will remain "humming bird" for me, unless...

...what happens when I will press A after reaching designates depth? Will the boat level?

[Stiebler]

I can confirm that Observer's solution solves the problem for me. Revised procedure is to crash-dive, hard-port rudder, from surface or periscope depth to 70m, circle at this depth for one game minute, flank speed and set dial depth gauge to 120m. Level out, go to silent running/slow ahead. *No* slow sinking seen now even down to 1 kt.

Tested with Type IXB U-boat in June-August 1942, west of Biscay (J-class and C-class destroyers) and in Caribbean (Clemson destroyers). Total of five successful escapes, multiple pounding by missed depth-charges close by, without damage or slow-sinking of U-boat.

Great work, Observer!!

Stiebler.

[The Noob]

This NYGM Sub mod sounds very Buggy. And, i like the humming bird. Have to get NYGM Tonnage War Before this mod gets implentet... :shifty:

[Stiebler]

The Noob said:
This NYGM Sub mod sounds very Buggy. And, i like the humming bird. Have to get NYGM Tonnage War Before this mod gets implentet...

It's a pity that Teddy Bar's attempts to draw a STOCK game bug to everyone's attention have resulted in a complaint that NYGM is buggy.

I should like everyone to know that NYGM mods are *extremely* well tested - unlike certain other mods that I could name (and which I won't use) - and that is how this STOCK bug became known. As Teddy Bar and I have both made clear - this STOCK bug is now cleared up, and there never was a bug in the NYGM U-boat damage mod. I personally spent dozens of hours - time when I should have been playing golf - to evaluate this problem. I know that Teddy Bar and Observer did too.

There is no bug in the NYGM U-boat damage model. Has everyone got that?

Stiebler.

NYGM Tonnage War Mod - Leading Edge Realism (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49428)

[Sailor Steve]

I have on several occassions ordered a crash dive, then immediately hit Periscope Depth, and have never had a problem.

I don't see why the chief can't level the boat at 50m... :hmm: maybe the experts out there will tell us.
I'm no expert on submarines, but as I understand it there are preset procedures for different types of dives. All vents must be closed before the dive order can be given, which is why you must first go to periscope depth and then come back up to Decks Awash. A standard dive means flooding the tanks to a certain preset level, whereas a crash dive requires full flooding then blowing some back out in order to get the boat down faster.

70m? 50m? I don't know what the deciding factor would be, unless it's not mechanical, but rather doctrine. Several people have the U-Boat Commanders' Handbook. Maybe one of them can find it.

[gouldjg]

The Noob said:
This NYGM Sub mod sounds very Buggy. And, i like the humming bird. Have to get NYGM Tonnage War Before this mod gets implentet...

It's a pity that Teddy Bar's attempts to draw a STOCK game bug to everyone's attention have resulted in a complaint that NYGM is buggy.

I should like everyone to know that NYGM mods are *extremely* well tested - unlike certain other mods that I could name (and which I won't use) - and that is how this STOCK bug became known. As Teddy Bar and I have both made clear - this STOCK bug is now cleared up, and there never was a bug in the NYGM U-boat damage mod. I personally spent dozens of hours - time when I should have been playing golf - to evaluate this problem. I know that Teddy Bar and Observer did too.

There is no bug in the NYGM U-boat damage model. Has everyone got that?

Stiebler.

NYGM Tonnage War Mod - Leading Edge Realism (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49428)

What other mods?,

Is it me or is there a slight tit tat going on here. Considering I am one of a few people whom has delved into damage files, I am getting the feeling that NYGM team members are beginning to take cheap shots at work I did 6 months ago alone and without this methodical approach.

First there is the "I dont like the Hollywood sinking because it is unrealistic" then there is the "Hollywood mods could be responsible for the engine destroyed messages" Now there is the "unlike some mods which I will not use" whilst on the subject of Sub damage model and Hollywood is only other version out there. Maybe I am being paranoid or maybe not.

I for one know how much work you guys are doing and how many hours it takes to test things regarding damage mods. I admire your work though do not completely agree on every aspect of it but I keep stump because I know how to change it to suit me.

I have even paused all work on dynamic and randomised features of ships sinkings and sub damage as well as putting some life into the DD. I did this because I wanted to have a model from which to place a chaos file onto and yours looked the most promising and well thought out one.

I like the Historical approach of NYGM and had ways and methods to assist the players whom like it but just wanted slight more variety and I am sure others do.

If you have objections, make them clear and I will build my own base :lol:

I sincerely appollogise if I have jumped the gun on this but I just do not want to see SH3 modding scene going the way Rome total war went as far as the modding scene is concerned. Mine is better than that etc etc.

Share ideas and share work, spot a fault and inform each other, but please, stop sniping little attacks on a old mod, that fore many players, has give some satisfaction.

Nuff said on my part

[Ducimus]

Heh, theres a reason why i don't release anything i do, I don't care to hear the flak nor criticism that can be generated. Because I mix Realism with gameynesss to create the most engaging Sub Sim experience i can get. (See patrol 3 on my u-178 patrol log, that was with hollywoods damage model, one of goldjgs EARLIER ones.)

Many people fail to realize something.
You don't have to install a mod if you don't like it.

My 2 cents.

[Stiebler]

Gouldjg said:
What other mods?,

Is it me or is there a slight tit tat going on here.

Sorry Gouldjg, I certainly was not referring to you. Actually, I had in mind a couple of people who, to the best of my knowledge, have left the SH3 forums, but I was too polite to name them.

As a general point, though, I do think that mods should be better tested. A lot of them evidently get only the most cursory testing, according to the statement of the modders themselves, usually accompanied by a statement to the effect that they "don't have time".

One point that I find particularly exasperating is the abuse of the phrase "beta testing". Beta testing ought to mean "I've tried my mod every way I can, and I've fixed all faults. However, other people use different computers, and they might find ways of using my mod that I haven't thought of. So they can tell me if I've overlooked something."

Beta testing does *not* mean: "OK, I've made my mod, but I'm too lazy to test it. Other people can test it for me."

Check around these forums, and see how many commit that fault.

Stiebler.

[gouldjg]

Now if that is not another dig, I do not know,

Beta should not be used for work that one cannot be bothered to test themselves, get out of here, Beta is exactly that, even in the mega million game industry, a beta is simply a way to ask users, what have we missed and what will not be noticed by the majority. It is a feedback tool and part of the quality process. Is it me or does all this kinda sound stupid and sad to say people should not use the words beta,

I do exactly what you just complain about,

And I do not/will not deny it. Sorry mate but that is my way of getting input and interest from those whom have knowledge and are willing to share it. As long as a disclaimer and warning is at the beginning thread, those whom have time and want to play, will want to check it out and those whom dont at least have a idea of what direction it will/can go. The majority of users understand that at times, creators cannot be expected to test every aspect of their work. What is acceptable for one is not for the other.

You see, I am not in possession of any work I do and to be honest, I throw out what I have found to gain feedback and to let other modders and more experienced users, get something from what I discovered yet still be able to take it to their own Judgments and give me feedback. Looks like this has been a negative thing to do by your tone. I aint changing it.

In fact, some of the recent chaos work was offered as a beta test because I had no other name for it to get it to the attention of those whom may want to exploit it. Com on, what was it to be called, the experimental but untried thread, doh.

I am slowly working on a single and tested version of chaos but why make people wait and why suffer trying to do everything myself when there are other players out there whom are prepared to look, talk about and even give better ideas than my original ones.

Take ship hp for instance, I was torn between using a low vanilla hp or using a high hp similar to nygm.

I had a pm from a guy whom was playing around with one part of the BETA chaos,

"Hi Jason,

Thankyou for sharing this stuff. I have been playing with your work and wondered why you do not just randomise all the ships HP instead of having a fixed number.

I now have randomised ship HP,

When I get feedback like that, then the so called beta opening was worth it IMO. Why would I want to go through weeks and weeks alone in a secret single minded plan when I get ideas from users just on the sole fact, they have looked at the potential.

Did not know there was a rule book at what can be called beta, how sad.

[Der Teddy Bar]

This NYGM Sub mod sounds very Buggy. And, i like the humming bird. Have to get NYGM Tonnage War Before this mod gets implentet... :shifty:
WHAT are you on about? :damn:

This is a STOCK GAME issue that I brought to everyones attention as it will effect them by default!

Using the external view you will be able to see what I am talking about.

From the surface order a crash dive and when at say 20 metres order periscope depth and ahead slow. once at periscope depth look externally at your u-boat, it will be stern heavy.

Now order another crash dive let it go the full distance, then order pericope depth and when there ahead slow, notice that your u-boat is on an even keel.

[JScones]

Just sticking my bib in to provide a 20+ year professional software engineer's perspective/clarification of what BETA means (not as any criticism of any comments here though, just as a "helper" for future mod devs). I'll include some context to paint the picture.

In general the following stages comprise the Development phase of the Systems Development Life Cycle (SDLC):

Development: (kinda self explanatory)

Pre-alpha: This really is no more than a development checkpoint. That is, the very underdeveloped tool at least runs and exits. In my experience, a pre-alpha is usually created to demonstrate to an Executive (or buyer) what the product will "look and feel like". Sometimes, it may be required to "seal the contract" and may be no more than a visual shell in some instances.

Alpha: Time for the testers! The developers will undertake what is known as "white box" testing (ensuring that the (P)rocessing gives the (O)utput from the (I)nput). A dedicated testing team will undertake what is known as "black box" testing (ensuring that the O from the I matches the Functional Specifications). This is an iterative process, lasting as long as time or risk permits. Alpha software is almost never released for general testing or consumption.

Beta: The product now includes all of the required features and many of the "nice to have" features. Usually, this is where the dev says "no more new features!", but may still have some slated features to add. The Beta version is generally created for user testing. It can also be considered a preview. It is often unstable and usually not ready for full release, with a disclaimer stating such usually attached to any public Beta release (although the stability-versus-Beta-tag depends on the developer for a variety of reasons, both negative and positive). HENCE why it is often released to either a select group of testers (preferable) or the general public to gain wider feedback. The aim is for any unforeseen bugs to be identified and for suggested "tweaks" to functionality to be raised. This is an iterative process, again lasting as long as time and risk permits. Some software never actually leaves Beta stage, sometimes because the developer does not want to provide full product support (sly dogs) and sometimes because no showshopping bugs are found so the need to progress just never eventuates. Social commentary coming...I personally find it quite a contradiction for developers to release Beta software whilst stating that it is fully stable and bug free, or not requesting user feedback. Kinda contradicts the purpose of this stage - the software may as well have just progressed to general release and saved everyone's time! Conversely, the "here it is untested" stuff released as Beta annoys me too. There's actually a (derogatory) term for this which I've mentioned below. But for modders I'm more tolerant - they are not professionals after all and as long as they say it's undertested, it is really just a case of caveat emptor. But it's still annoying nonetheless.

Release Candidate: A term you've heard me mention here a few times. Code complete, and usually at "distribution ready" stage. No new code or features will be added. Only data tweaks and last minute bug fixes allowed. This is the most frustrating time to find bugs due to the reverse workflow potentially created!

General Release: As stable and bug free as the developers think is possible. May also be called a "Gold" release. But not Gold as in a reflection of the number of sales, but Gold as in a reflection of the commencement of mass production (as in a "Gold master"). A subsequently marketed "Gold" release could refer to a more stable updated release (ie with all subsequent patches and fixes included), or it could just be a marketing tactic to repackage old material.

Notes:
*Just to add some complexitiy, Alpha and Beta testing can occur concurrently.
**Any mod developer that says "here it is, I haven't had time to test it though" is actually releasing what is known derogatorily as a "Gamma Release", ie a release where the developer has chosen to let general users "test" rather than "use" the final product (even though it may be marketed as a Beta or full release)!
***Disclaimer: Just like the SDLC, the above is just one common example of the Development phase. Individual Dev teams may include extra stages (like Delta testing), or exclude stages (like Pre-alpha). But ultimately, all follow the same basic path.

Maybe somewhat OT for which I apologise, but if it helps provide some framework for future modders...

[gouldjg]

WOW,

I have a lot to learn :hmm:

So in effect, I have committed some gamma crimes. I am guilty of that but in a unknowing and ignorant kind of way.

Can I play the dumb and naive card here and get away with a warning :lol:

It is nice weather in UK today (Jason sheepishly changes subject cos he is lost and feels a little stupid lol)

Thanks Jscones for excelent explanation. I will try and go by that code from now on :up:

[Heibges]

Unfortunately, in the video game end of the software business, games barely get to alpha before they are sent off to manufacturer with the hope that somehow the game will come together in "the patch".

[The Noob]

This NYGM Sub mod sounds very Buggy. And, i like the humming bird. Have to get NYGM Tonnage War Before this mod gets implentet... :shifty:
WHAT are you on about? :damn:

This is a STOCK GAME issue that I brought to everyones attention as it will effect them by default!

Using the external view you will be able to see what I am talking about.

From the surface order a crash dive and when at say 20 metres order periscope depth and ahead slow. once at periscope depth look externally at your u-boat, it will be stern heavy.

Now order another crash dive let it go the full distance, then order pericope depth and when there ahead slow, notice that your u-boat is on an even keel.

Ah, and that mod fixes it?
Good. I didn't understood it right... :damn:

Sorry! :oops:

[Der Teddy Bar]

This NYGM Sub mod sounds very Buggy. And, i like the humming bird. Have to get NYGM Tonnage War Before this mod gets implentet... :shifty:
WHAT are you on about? :damn:

This is a STOCK GAME issue that I brought to everyones attention as it will effect them by default!

Using the external view you will be able to see what I am talking about.

From the surface order a crash dive and when at say 20 metres order periscope depth and ahead slow. once at periscope depth look externally at your u-boat, it will be stern heavy.

Now order another crash dive let it go the full distance, then order pericope depth and when there ahead slow, notice that your u-boat is on an even keel.

Ah, and that mod fixes it?
Good. I didn't understood it right... :damn:

Sorry! :oops:
No the NYGM U-Boat Mod will not fix this issue as it is hard coded.

The issue is something effects all players of the game unmoded and moded. I have let the SHIV Lead Designer know.

No probs about the misunderstanding :up:

[Seminole]

Crash Dive Blues!

:nope:

After reading all that, the only thing I came away with is a feeling of how prophetic was the thread title. :shifty:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Crash Dive Blues!

:nope:

After reading all that, the only thing I came away with is a feeling of how prophetic was the thread title. :shifty:
?? The Riddler Strikes ??

[Ducimus]

Unfortunately, in the video game end of the software business, games barely get to alpha before they are sent off to manufacturer with the hope that somehow the game will come together in "the patch".

I think your emellishing a little. You ever see an Alpha build? Having a connected relative, i can say i have. It's no where NEAR beta, and ive beta tested a few games.

Don't confuse MMO's with standard titles either, MMO's are buggy and constantly patching for reasons entirely different then a standand PC non subscription based game.


I can feel myself going on a tangant, as i was about to spew about how no two PCs are exactly alike... anywho.. im gonna shut me pie hole now :D

[The Noob]

No probs about the misunderstanding :up:

Thanks!

I'm just such a stupid person... :damn: :lol:

[Payoff]

I have wrestled with this problem from the very beginning. Did not realize a subsequent crash dive would clear it up. Thanks Der Teddy Bar. :up:

[Immacolata]

Modders do it for fun I am sure. Let them relase it when they feel like it, as long as they at least mention to what extent it has been tested. Apart from that, to Glücksburg with the nomenclature. Beta, alpha, pre-, gold... Should be room here for Big and Small Egos alike without people stepping all over each other's toes.