Cindy Sheehan, get out of my country..

[Wildcat]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-05/05/content_4511261.htm

This lady's at it again. She's an insult to everything our soldiers are fighting for. Apparently she does not remember the mass murder of civilians including women and children, by the taliban, who would gladly step in and resume power the moment armed forces leave the area.

If it were up to me I would send Shihan out of this country immediately, never to return. I don't want her breathing the same air as me.

[DeepSix]

Whether one is a hawk or a dove, that woman has long since past the point of being a grieving mother - which at first I could understand - and is now just a publicity hound. IMO.

I wonder how Jessica Lynch is doing.

[Skybird]

The only insult to these soldiers in fight is their commander-in-chief who betrays them, leads them incompetently, risks their lifes for lies, and abuses their good will and their trust.

Some people see a value in saving lifes from dying uselessly for lies. Unfortunately, other people prefer to waste even more lifes for illusions instead of admitting that they were wrong from the beginning.

Concerning this second kind of people - I do not want them to breath the same air as me, no matter the nationality.

[Onkel Neal]

Whether one is a hawk or a dove, that woman has long since past the point of being a grieving mother - which at first I could understand - and is now just a publicity hound. IMO.

I wonder how Jessica Lynch is doing.

Yeah, she needs to get a life. Maybe she should try her hand at being an activist in Baghdad or Grozny. I'll pitch in for her air fare.

[Ducimus]

Cindy Sheehan strikes me as some self absorbed, anal retentive yuppy, SUV driving, soccar mom who can't handle reality.

[kgsuarez]

Personally, I am against the war in Iraq. But... I would love to sign up and go fight. I think combat must be the coolest thing.

Whatever... without war, there would be no such thing as peace.

To each his own. As long as there are men and women willing to fight the dirty wars, we're all okay.

As for me, I am not fit for duty. But man.. I would give anything to see some combat.

As for Sheehan, I think she's annoying as hell. But kicking her out of the country is un-American. Come on you guys. You should all know, that it is the hard-core hawk types that fight for the rights of the peace loving doves. Not to say that it's the only thing they fight for, but I think you can see my point.

BTW: Have any of you seen the photos of Sheehan's book signing? Nobody showed up. lol.. I'll see if I can find those pics.

[Ducimus]

I think combat must be the coolest thing.


Your joking right? If not, you may rest assured, it is not the coolest thing.

When you realize someone wants to kill you because of the uniform your wearing, because of WHAT you are, when you get that recall at 0 'dark 30, and file into the belly of a cargo plane, and those doors slam shut, and taxi's down that runway.. when your gut wrenches into a knot, and when finally learn what "pucker factor" is all about, the world is a cold, hard, lonely place. You don't want that.

EDIT:
Heh wow, i should have read the rest more closely

But man.. I would give anything to see some combat.

So your not joking. You want to know what its like? Heres a little slice.
Imagine being in a country where everybody hates you. youve made some good friends, and your i dunno, "out on the job". You work together, you sleep in the same tents, like the movies, your like brothers. One guy is next to you. You look over at him and he's fine. You turn your head another way to look around, then you hear a loud noise and then turn your head back and he's on the ground holding his face.

Blood is coming out of his head, like someone took a drain plug out of a motor oil pan, and just as thick. You and a couple others try to help him, and come to find out, his face is smashed in. Its almost cartoony, because his eyes are acutaly closer to gether, like someone punched his face really good, like in a cartoon. But its not a cartoon, its real. you dare not say aloud what he looks like because he'll go into shock.

He gets medivaced out. You never see him again.
Next day that blood is there on the concrete. It one big cake, about 4 feet wide. 1/4 inch Thick, and its cracked, like dried paint. You can throw water on it, but the stain on the ground won't come out. The last thing that sticks in your mind is the mans face.

Its not cool. Don't be so nieve.

[August]

I don't believe Sheehan is doing this for an ideal. She's a professional protester. She makes money off her dead son who, from all accounts, believed in what he was doing. He reenlisted to go back to Iraq. Think about it.

[bradclark1]

Don't be mad at her. Feel sorry for her.

[August]

Don't be mad at her. Feel sorry for her.

I feel sorry for her family.

[kiwi_2005]

Anti war protesters just like our green peace here in NZ are a right pain in the butt. Wars not a good thing im against it but sometimes it has to happen. Didn't the Vietnam vets get the worse treatment when they came back, US citizens spitting on them, calling them murderers. what these guys would of went through only to come back and get crap from there own ppl would of been a depression of its own.
A good veitnam book ive read called 'NAM' by Mark baker will really open your eyes, told by real vets (pilots and grunts.) Better than Chickenhawk.

[TteFAboB]

A true caring mother would never, ever consider crippling her son.

If she really didn't want him to go, and he didn't want to go, she should help him, give him strength, to face a Mohammed Ali, and I'm talking about the Boxer, the holy war one is on the other side.

So, mommy, stand up with your son and face a desertion trial. Running off to Canada? Running to the hills?! What happened to honor?! What happened to Mohammed Ali?

You sign up for the army, even if you don't want to ever go to any war, there's a chance you'll get called, and if you truly don't want to go, you face the desertion trial! If you are such a victim, chances are they'll find you not-guilty.Now, if that risk is too much to bear, how about building the country as a civilian?

Good thing war journalists don't have mothers, if their's stopped them from going to war zones, other moms would never be able to tell how insane a war can be.

[August]

A true caring mother would never, ever consider crippling her son.

If she really didn't want him to go, and he didn't want to go, she should help him, give him strength, to face a Mohammed Ali, and I'm talking about the Boxer, the holy war one is on the other side.

So, mommy, stand up with your son and face a desertion trial. Running off to Canada? Running to the hills?! What happened to honor?! What happened to Mohammed Ali?

You sign up for the army, even if you don't want to ever go to any war, there's a chance you'll get called, and if you truly don't want to go, you face the desertion trial! If you are such a victim, chances are they'll find you not-guilty.Now, if that risk is too much to bear, how about building the country as a civilian?

Good thing war journalists don't have mothers, if their's stopped them from going to war zones, other moms would never be able to tell how insane a war can be.

Uhh you do realize that he was a professional soldier on his second enlistment who was killed on a rescue mission in Iraq for which he had also volunteered to take part in right? This guy wouldn't have run to Canada nor would he have deserted. He believed in what he was doing.

His mother ought to respect her dead sons wishes and not dishonor his memory in her eagerness for speaking tour cash.

[TLAM Strike]

Didn't the Vietnam vets get the worse treatment when they came back, US citizens spitting on them, calling them murderers. what these guys would of went through only to come back and get crap from there own ppl would of been a depression of its own. Some did treat them well. My dad served stateside in the Navy during the end of the war and remembers the ticket counter clerks at airports bumping men in uniform up to 1st class for their flight when there were seats available. I think everyone should remember and follow these people’s example.

[DeepSix]

...
Some did treat them well. My dad served stateside in the Navy during the end of the war and remembers the ticket counter clerks at airports bumping men in uniform up to 1st class for their flight when there were seats available. I think everyone should remember and follow these people’s example.

Interesting... one of my friends is in the 82nd; on one of his trips back from either Afghanistan or Iraq, he and three other men were put on a commercial flight from Germany to the U.S. When they boarded, several first class passengers voluntarily swapped seats with them.

Back to Sheehan - In a way I *do* feel sorry for her, because this cause of hers won't always make a satisfactory raison d'etre. It gives her life some meaning for the time being, but once it's gone....

[Skybird]

I think combat must be the coolest thing.


Your joking right? If not, you may rest assured, it is not the coolest thing.

When you realize someone wants to kill you because of the uniform your wearing, because of WHAT you are, when you get that recall at 0 'dark 30, and file into the belly of a cargo plane, and those doors slam shut, and taxi's down that runway.. when your gut wrenches into a knot, and when finally learn what "pucker factor" is all about, the world is a cold, hard, lonely place. You don't want that.

EDIT:
Heh wow, i should have read the rest more closely

But man.. I would give anything to see some combat.

So your not joking. You want to know what its like? Heres a little slice.
Imagine being in a country where everybody hates you. youve made some good friends, and your i dunno, "out on the job". You work together, you sleep in the same tents, like the movies, your like brothers. One guy is next to you. You look over at him and he's fine. You turn your head another way to look around, then you hear a loud noise and then turn your head back and he's on the ground holding his face.

Blood is coming out of his head, like someone took a drain plug out of a motor oil pan, and just as thick. You and a couple others try to help him, and come to find out, his face is smashed in. Its almost cartoony, because his eyes are acutaly closer to gether, like someone punched his face really good, like in a cartoon. But its not a cartoon, its real. you dare not say aloud what he looks like because he'll go into shock.

He gets medivaced out. You never see him again.
Next day that blood is there on the concrete. It one big cake, about 4 feet wide. 1/4 inch Thick, and its cracked, like dried paint. You can throw water on it, but the stain on the ground won't come out. The last thing that sticks in your mind is the mans face.

Its not cool. Don't be so nieve.

"Die werden auch noch ruhiger." ("Das Boot", der Alte about the big-mouthed young sailors during the hot-cooking farewell party before they leave harbour next morning).

[STEED]

I would love to sign up and go fight. I think combat must be the coolest thing.

Yea real cool just like TV, you can drill nice neat holes in the enemy and so on. You really need to get a grip of reality there is no glamour in war it's a dirty business, no true solider will tell you its cool, far from it there's nothing cool when your life is at risk on the front line. :nope:

[Oberon]

Combat must be the coolest thing...?

Yeah, I remember reading about similar statements expressed by young conscripts as they headed east in 1914.


We all know their reality.... :nope:

[TteFAboB]

At least in 1914 you knew where the enemy was. :P

Uhh you do realize that he was a professional soldier on his second enlistment who was killed on a rescue mission in Iraq for which he had also volunteered to take part in right? This guy wouldn't have run to Canada nor would he have deserted. He believed in what he was doing.

His mother ought to respect her dead sons wishes and not dishonor his memory in her eagerness for speaking tour cash.

Yes, I realize that, I was following her own words, so that she can't accuse me of twisting or inventing anything.

Mr. kgsuarez, if you are enthusiastic about war, join/create a Paintball/Airsoft club/group. You take the BEST out of it, and all the glorious stuff, minus the negative, no deaths, it's all fantasy. :up:

[Type941]

I think combat must be the coolest thing.

No, playing Tom Clancy's Ubisoft cames is there, getting handicapped, mentally damaged after killing people and may be dying - all in a name of scumbags like Dick Cheney is not quite up there on the list of coolest things in life . Seek help man. :roll:

[scandium]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-05/05/content_4511261.htm

This lady's at it again. She's an insult to everything our soldiers are fighting for. Apparently she does not remember the mass murder of civilians including women and children, by the taliban, who would gladly step in and resume power the moment armed forces leave the area.

If it were up to me I would send Shihan out of this country immediately, never to return. I don't want her breathing the same air as me.

Interesting how you link her son's death in Iraq to the Taliban. Last I checked the Taliban were in Afghanistan, not Iraq. However if you're as confused as you seem to be about all of this, consider that Sheehan may be just as confused and hasn't "forgotten" anything. Consider that, depending on the day of the week, the US went to war with Iraq either to:

a: disarm Iraq of the WMD that the UN was on the ground searching for up until mere days before the US invaded and which the US itself, three years later, has yet to find;

b: bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqis through "Shock and Awe" (ie bombing the hell out of their country and forcing democracy/civil war upon them at gun point);

c: get rid of Saddam Hussein's "rape and torture rooms" to replace them instead with an Americanized version of Abu Ghraib;

d: retaliate for 9/11 against a country that was in no way connected to 9/11.

e: bring peace through war with a country that had never attacked the United States and wasn't planning or threatening to do so.

In any case, she's certainly earned the right to her opinion, having had her son sacrificed and all in the very cause that she is speaking out about.

[Wildcat]

Did you even read the article? Obviously not, because she came to MY country to tell MY soldiers to get out of AFGHANISTAN! Read the article before you make some scripted anti-everything post.

Some people just make it too easy, yeesh.

[Sailor Steve]

I think combat must be the coolest thing.
...scumbags like Dick Cheney
Of course there's always one who has to turn it into an attack on his own favorite 'bad guy'.

But he's right; combat is not cool. If you survive, and are lucky enough not to come home maimed, you get to watch your friends die. Not cool at all.

[scandium]

Did you even read the article? Obviously not, because she came to MY country to tell MY soldiers to get out of AFGHANISTAN! Read the article before you make some scripted anti-everything post.

Some people just make it too easy, yeesh.

Read it. Maybe you should read it as well before foaming at the mouth like this to another Canadian about "your soldiers" and "your country". From the article:

"I'm just here begging the people of Canada to force your government ... to allow our soldiers to have sanctuary up here," Sheehan, also known as "Peace Mom," told reporters on Thursday during her visit to the Parliament Hill in Ottawa.

That was the purpose of her visit. Further into the article it adds:

Sheehan also urged Canada to get out of Afghanistan, which she said is just "a branch office of a immoral and illegal American-led war in Iraq."

She didn't come to "your country" to tell "your soldiers" anything (but your inflated sense of self-importance is noted). She came to Canada to urge Canadians to force our government to grant amnesty to American soldiers who desert and come to Canada. While here for that purpose she also urged us to get out of Afghanistan because she associates it with Iraq. Which is fine. She's entitled to her opinion. Her being American doesn't mean she's required to keep her mouth shut or her opinions to herself when she comes here, as last I checked Canada was also a free country where differing views are welcome.

[kgsuarez]

Look. I am not as naive as you think. Although I have not actually seen combat and the horrors of war, I have family who have. And I do know that it is dirty and scary crap at times. Seeing your "brothers" die right before you, etc. I have read countless books on war. I am actually pretty well educated on the topic.

Nevertheless, I would still want to see some combat. Perhaps it's because I know it's something I will never be allowed to do due to medical reasons (that are none of your business and I won't discuss). I don't like to get into personal arguments with strangers. I am sorry if I have offended any of you. I was just stating my opinion, I thought there would be some like-minded individuals here. But whatever.

BTW: If it weren't for people who actually wanted to see combat, who the hell would sign up for the services? I mean really... what the hell are armies for?

I don't want to start an argument over this. I am done with this topic. Thank you all.

[Takeda Shingen]

BTW: If it weren't for people who actually wanted to see combat, who the hell would sign up for the services? I mean really... what the hell are armies for?

People could enlist in the military because:

1. They seek work.
2. They carry on a family tradition.
3. They seek the financial means to attend college.
4. They have romanticised notions of war.

Armies are for:

1. Securing the best interest of the nation.
2. Resolving political conflict.
3. Enforcing international law.

[Deathblow]

The only thing I heard about Sheehan that makes me pity her is that its been said that she has called Iraqi terrorist "Freedom Fighters" in her speeches... as they blow up children school yards, execute women and innocents... :hulk: This is pretty much a garantee that's she is probably pretty much an idiot and is not clued much into reality. Just blinded by simplistic "faulting" by her grief.

e: bring peace through war with a country that had never attacked the United States and wasn't planning or threatening to do so.

To my knowledge, this is incorrect. Iraq attacked UN air patrols numerous times after the first Gulf War in defiance of the UN restrictions put in place to sanction Iraq for its unprovoked attack/violation of Kuwait's sovereignty. During the postwar period when Iraq pretty much said "to hell with" the UN sanctions, defied their resolutions, and routinely lauched SAMS at their air patrols (making the UN a shameful/spineless joke in the process).

[kgsuarez]

Takeda, I wasn't actually asking those questions. They were rhetorical. I was trying to make a point.

And uh.. How do you expect the army to deal with 1,2 & 3?... How about... war, maybe? :doh:

Oh god... I have started an argument, haven't I?

Look. Anything you people say to me will not make a difference. And I guess, anything I say to you won't make much of a difference either.

I want to argue with you people right now, because a lot of what you are saying doesn't make sense to me. But I'm not going to. It'd be stupid. I don't give a rats ass what any of you think. And you shouldn't give a rats ass about what I think.

It's so stupid... Some of you people didn't even read my post completly. Most of you just took it the wrong way because I used the word "cool".

[Wildcat]

"I'm just here begging the people of Canada to force your government ... to allow our soldiers to have sanctuary up here," Sheehan, also known as "Peace Mom," told reporters on Thursday during her visit to the Parliament Hill in Ottawa.

Sheehan also urged Canada to get out of Afghanistan, which she said is just "a branch office of a immoral and illegal American-led war in Iraq."


She didn't come to "your country" to tell "your soldiers" anything (but your inflated sense of self-importance is noted). She came to Canada to urge Canadians to force our government to grant amnesty to American soldiers who desert and come to Canada. While here for that purpose she also urged us to get out of Afghanistan because she associates it with Iraq.

Last I checked Canada was also a free country where differing views are welcome.
Sure, but not hers. She insists that my country be a haven to deserters, and that our soldiers are fighting an illegal war (hence they are war criminals). She needs to get the hell out, she is NOT welcome here.

You're full of it scadium. Canada is my country. You don't like it? Tough cookies buddy, I served my country and I consider it to be mine, and it belongs to everyone else who lives here too. Deal with it.

This woman is begging my country to accept deserters. You know what? I tell her to **** off. Deserting is illegal. If you don't want to fight, don't join the damn military. No one is forced to.

Sheehan also urged Canada to get out of Afghanistan

Well obviously she is telling our soldiers to get out of Afghanistan. So what is this crap you wrote about her not telling us to get out of Afghanistan? You can't even figure yourself out.

[scandium]

Sure, but not hers. She insists that my country be a haven to deserters, and that our soldiers are fighting an illegal war (hence they are war criminals). She needs to get the hell out, she is NOT welcome here.

You don't even know what you're talking about. She is not saying that Canadian soldiers are fighting an illegal war. Its the war in Iraq that she refers to as illegal, not Afghanistan. Her gripe with our being in Afghanistan is that every soldier we send there is one less that the US has to send, and therefore one more that's available to be sent to Iraq. And she certainly IS welcome here.

You're full of it scadium. Canada is my country. You don't like it? Tough cookies buddy, I served my country and I consider it to be mine, and it belongs to everyone else who lives here too. Deal with it.

Nothing there to deal with. I was merely amused by your ranting about YOUR country and YOUR soldiers to another Canadian.

This woman is begging my country to accept deserters. You know what? I tell her to **** off. Deserting is illegal. If you don't want to fight, don't join the damn military. No one is forced to.

No more than anyone is forcing her to leave for having an opinion different from your own. She's entitled to it.

Well obviously she is telling our soldiers to get out of Afghanistan. So what is this crap you wrote about her not telling us to get out of Afghanistan? You can't even figure yourself out.

No what I said was that it wasn't her reason for being here. Again her beef is with the US war on Iraq. That's why she's here, as it has every thing to do with Iraq (and her wanting us to accept those who have deserted from the US military rather than fight there) and very little to do with Afghanistan. Afghanistan is a peripheral issue that she's only concerned with for the reason I gave above in how it relates (at least to her) to the US war with Iraq.

[Takeda Shingen]

Takeda, I wasn't actually asking those questions. They were rhetorical. I was trying to make a point.

I believe that you have missed the boat on this one. The point made by your rhetorical question is faulty. The point, that individuals who enlist are ultimately seeking frontline combat duty, is invalid for the reasons listed above. Thereby, I refuted your point and was not responding to rhetoric.

And uh.. How do you expect the army to deal with 1,2 & 3?... How about... war, maybe? :doh:

Yes. That is also what I said earlier.

For the record, I am not interested in your vernacular usage of 'cool'. I do ask that you refrain from calling me stupid. It hurts my self esteem and necessitates that I bother Skybird for additional psychoanalysis and therapy. He is a busy man, and should not be bothered with such trivialities, at least when working pro bono.

[joea]

People could enlist in the military because:

1. They seek work.
2. They carry on a family tradition.
3. They seek the financial means to attend college.
4. They have romanticised notions of war.

Armies are for:

1. Securing the best interest of the nation.
2. Resolving political conflict.
3. Enforcing international law.

All by learning how to, and applying the art of killing.

[blue3golf]

If her son could see her he would roll over in his grave. She disgraces him at every turn. She has taken grieving to a whole new and sick level. That is someone who's been there point of view. She should be proud of her sons choices and service.

[bradclark1]

His mother ought to respect her dead sons wishes and not dishonor his memory in her eagerness for speaking tour cash.

She's a weak woman being played by sh!theads.

[August]

His mother ought to respect her dead sons wishes and not dishonor his memory in her eagerness for speaking tour cash.

She's a weak woman being played by sh!theads.

I used to think that but the handling was so obvious i think now that she's just a paid participant, willing to make money of her dead son.

[Takeda Shingen]

People could enlist in the military because:

1. They seek work.
2. They carry on a family tradition.
3. They seek the financial means to attend college.
4. They have romanticised notions of war.

Armies are for:

1. Securing the best interest of the nation.
2. Resolving political conflict.
3. Enforcing international law.

All by learning how to, and applying the art of killing.

And yet without the expressed desire to do so.

[August]

And yet without the expressed desire to do so.

Not true at all. The fact that an individual may be required to physically fight is stressed from the moment they enter the service. The Oath of Enlistment pretty much covers it to all but the most dimwitted, however aside from that, and the written contracts, a recruit signs, there are also various basic training dittys such as the USMCs "This is my rifle" night time story.

Even beyond that that there are numerous informal group and individual talks with the drill sergeants throughout basic and AIT. My two drills, SSG Fugate and SGT Culp (amazing how i can remember those names from 29 years ago) made it absolutely clear to each and every one of us in the platoon that no matter what our MOS was we could be called to fight at any time and there are plenty of examples throughout miltary history where it had happened.

Now consider that the first six months is the easiest time for a person to get out of the military with no blot on their record. I think we need to give our young people the credit for knowing just what they may be getting into.

[kgsuarez]

The majority of Americans never saw 9/11 and it's consequences coming. A few years ago the military was a great option for individuals seeking college tuition, jobs, etc. But now.. I have no idea for sure, but I am willing to bet that they are sending most of our soldiers to Iraq.

You know what a real problem is? Now.. some of you may disagree with this but... Tours of duty in Iraq are too short, only about 6 months or so (I think). The longer a group of men are together fighting, the more experience and confidence they get with eachother. This would lead to better fighting perhaps. I don't know. This is coming from an essay I read a few months back.

[blue3golf]

Tours of duty in Iraq are too short, only about 6 months

Unless you're a Ranger or SF plan on spending anywhere from 12-18 months in Iraq. It's been year tours since, late 2003, basically right after invasion forces went home. As to experience and confidence with each other you get plenty of that before deploying, all it takes is the first shot and it's amazing how well everyone works together. Year tours are no sweat for those that sit in a FOB or some camp with all the brass that worry about the the occasional mortar round that might actually be on target and spend their year avoiding contact with the enemy. For those that spend the year seeking out enemy forces and actively patrolling outside the wire a year is a time and fighting a guerrilla war it pushes you to your limit.

[DeepSix]

...
My two drills, SSG Fugate and SGT Culp (amazing how i can remember those names from 29 years ago) made it absolutely clear to each and every one of us in the platoon that no matter what our MOS was we could be called to fight at any time and there are plenty of examples throughout miltary history where it had happened.

I agree that it would be pretty hard for a recruit not to know exactly what it is they're getting into and exactly what may be required of them in the process, and IIRC it used to be said in the Marines that "every man is a rifleman." But I wonder sometimes if we've gotten too far away from that idea (through recruitment advertising) in favor of the MOS? I dunno, maybe I'm just behind the times - I still think battle rifles ought to be .30 cal instead of .22 cal. :lol:

[blue3golf]

A .30 cal round is great, punches a nice, big hole straight through. I was skeptical of the .223 rounds but when they hit something it's catastrophic, the bullet does exactly what it was designed for, enter and start tumbling bouncing everywhere and then exiting anywhere but straight through.

[August]

...
My two drills, SSG Fugate and SGT Culp (amazing how i can remember those names from 29 years ago) made it absolutely clear to each and every one of us in the platoon that no matter what our MOS was we could be called to fight at any time and there are plenty of examples throughout miltary history where it had happened.

I agree that it would be pretty hard for a recruit not to know exactly what it is they're getting into and exactly what may be required of them in the process, and IIRC it used to be said in the Marines that "every man is a rifleman." But I wonder sometimes if we've gotten too far away from that idea (through recruitment advertising) in favor of the MOS? I dunno, maybe I'm just behind the times - I still think battle rifles ought to be .30 cal instead of .22 cal. :lol:

Perhaps you're right. The USMC seems to have the least problems recruiting out of all the services, but i've never seen a Marine ad that didn't have a combat related theme.

[Takeda Shingen]

And yet without the expressed desire to do so.

Not true at all. The fact that an individual may be required to physically fight is stressed from the moment they enter the service. The Oath of Enlistment pretty much covers it to all but the most dimwitted, however aside from that, and the written contracts, a recruit signs, there are also various basic training dittys such as the USMCs "This is my rifle" night time story.

Even beyond that that there are numerous informal group and individual talks with the drill sergeants throughout basic and AIT. My two drills, SSG Fugate and SGT Culp (amazing how i can remember those names from 29 years ago) made it absolutely clear to each and every one of us in the platoon that no matter what our MOS was we could be called to fight at any time and there are plenty of examples throughout miltary history where it had happened.

Now consider that the first six months is the easiest time for a person to get out of the military with no blot on their record. I think we need to give our young people the credit for knowing just what they may be getting into.

Commitment to duty and desire of duty are different things. The fact that one has enlisted and taken the oath to protect his or her country does not imply the expressed wish to fight. You speak of obligation.

[TLAM Strike]

Perhaps you're right. The USMC seems to have the least problems recruiting out of all the services, but i've never seen a Marine ad that didn't have a combat related theme. What about the one where they guy is climbing the shear cliff? Other than the sword at the end what’s combat related?

[DeepSix]

...What about the one where they guy is climbing the shear cliff? Other than the sword at the end what’s combat related?

Actually, I think all branches of the service show pretty "cleaned-up" ads, for understandable reasons. It's salesmanship. For some reason, though (and it's largely a matter of perception, I admit), the Marine Corps ads seem to me to be less sanitized; they always emphasize some sort of challenge or struggle that goes with military service - unlike the Army ones which almost always seem to show you how cool it is to join so you can work with computers, or get a job after your service, or learn how to shake your father's hand, etc. Sorry, that's a bit of a jibe at Army, but it lost me way back with the whole "Army of One" campaign - which I think is a total crock. Being in the military is fundamentally about being on a team, not being Rambo.

The fact that one has enlisted and taken the oath to protect his or her country does not imply the expressed wish to fight.

I'm sorry to disagree, but that doesn't make much sense to me. If you (the general you, not you personally) join an organization whose reason for being is to fight, then you should be prepared - and able - to do that, whether you're a combat infantryman or a cook or a supply clerk. If you don't think you could fight if called upon to do so, then you can get much of the non-combat training the military offers by going to technical or junior college instead. IMO. I mean, if you (again, the general you) don't like mopping floors, then a janitor's job is probably not for you.

[Edit: Perhaps I should add that I don't think it's necessary to be *eager* to fight....]

A .30 cal round is great, punches a nice, big hole straight through. I was skeptical of the .223 rounds but when they hit something it's catastrophic, the bullet does exactly what it was designed for, enter and start tumbling bouncing everywhere and then exiting anywhere but straight through.

Yeah, it does indeed do that. I always sort of wondered if the tumbling - the maiming property - was an intended part of the switch (NATO specs and the whole firepower vs. capacity debate aside, for the moment). A .30 round is more likely to kill (a stretcher, two bearers, and a grave detail), whereas the suped up .22 that is NATO standard is more likely to wound (a stretcher, two bearers, a med-evac, fuel, surgeon, nurses, medical supplies, etc.).

Probably a hare-brained armchair general's thought, but it seems like, at least in terms of Cold War strategy, bogging the enemy down in logistics is as much a part of winning as tactical victory.

Two cents and idle chatter. :D

[TLAM Strike]

Sorry, that's a bit of a jibe at Army, but it lost me way back with the whole "Army of One" campaign - which I think is a total crock. Being in the military is fundamentally about being on a team, not being Rambo.
Agree with you on that. Every time I see those Army commercials I think of Gen. Patton:
An Army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horse sh!t. The bilious bastards who write that kind of stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real fighting under fire than they know about ****ing!

[bradclark1]

Yeah, it does indeed do that. I always sort of wondered if the tumbling - the maiming property - was an intended part of the switch (NATO specs and the whole firepower vs. capacity debate aside, for the moment). A .30 round is more likely to kill (a stretcher, two bearers, and a grave detail), whereas the suped up .22 that is NATO standard is more likely to wound (a stretcher, two bearers, a med-evac, fuel, surgeon, nurses, medical supplies, etc.).

The object is to wound. I can't be sure I remember correctly but it takes something like 20 personel to care for one wounded. You get more bang for the buck in producing living casulties. The dead don't take that many people to process.

[blue3golf]

The object is to wound.

The object is still to kill, no one trains to wound the enemy. The .22 round kills very efficiently, maybe better than the .30. The .22 produces more internal injuries and bleeding that can't be seen until the guy arrives at a hospital. Whereas it used to be a straight forward entrance and exit wound now you find a little entrance wound, and at least a silver dollar size exit who knows where and who knows what internal injuries. Patch up the two holes all you want the only one fixing the internal stuff is a hospital provided the guy actually makes it there.

More bleeding and more organs destroyed equals quicker deaths.

For this last tour I was on we actually got 77 grain hollow point match grade rounds. Those are even better than the stock round.

[August]

What about the one where they guy is climbing the shear cliff? Other than the sword at the end what’s combat related?

I don;t think you understand the imagery. Scaling the cliff freehand, a very dangerous thing to do, just like combat. A WW2 clad Combat Marine image waiting for him welcoming him to the fraternity. He's transformed into a Marine in dress blues holding a sword.

This is all very martial and nothing close to the "learn a high tech trade" panzy stuff the army broadcasts.

[SeaSpectre]

I was about to put my two cents' in about the whole Cindy Sheehan thing, but here is a quote that captures it much more eloquently than I could ever phrase it:


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)

And another quote that is a favorite of mine:

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
-- George Orwell

And, finally, from the "Epitoma Rei Militaris," by Vegetius...

"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."
(If you want peace, prepare for war.)

I don't think any rational or sane person believes that war is a good thing. Unfortunately, in the unstable and incredibly deadly world we find ourselves in, war is still very much a necessary evil.

I am torn as to what I feel about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I work on a contract for the military that has me going from one military hospital to another. For the first three months of this year I was at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in DC. Walter Reed is the place where nearly all combat casualties from the war zone come, for it is the premiere trauma and amputation hospital in North America....possibly even the world. I saw literally dozens of young men missing arms, legs, hands, eyes, etc. It was very sobering. Still, however, I did not see anger or bitterness in their faces. Their courage is absolutely awe-inspiring. They deserve every support that any of us can give them.

As to whether or not the wars are "correct", or not, is something that we have to decide at the polls. If you don't like what the current administration is doing, vote someone else in.

Oh, BTW, hello to everyone. I have been out of the Subsim community for years now. So long, in fact, my old forum ID has been lost. But I am back, now, and renewing my love for subsims. Dosbox, for those of you who haven't tried it, is fantastic. I am able to run SH1 on my laptop flawlessly. I am looking forward to getting SH2 (just for the Pacific Aces mod), and I have SH3 although I haven't tried it yet. I have much to catch up on! :D

[TLAM Strike]

What about the one where they guy is climbing the shear cliff? Other than the sword at the end what’s combat related?

I don;t think you understand the imagery. Scaling the cliff freehand, a very dangerous thing to do, just like combat. A WW2 clad Combat Marine image waiting for him welcoming him to the fraternity. He's transformed into a Marine in dress blues holding a sword.

This is all very martial and nothing close to the "learn a high tech trade" panzy stuff the army broadcasts.Actually I was probably taking the imagery too far. Seeing it as a symbol of the challenge of basic training.

[scandium]

I was about to put my two cents' in about the whole Cindy Sheehan thing, but here is a quote that captures it much more eloquently than I could ever phrase it:


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)

And another quote that is a favorite of mine:

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
-- George Orwell

And, finally, from the "Epitoma Rei Militaris," by Vegetius...

"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."
(If you want peace, prepare for war.)

I don't think any rational or sane person believes that war is a good thing. Unfortunately, in the unstable and incredibly deadly world we find ourselves in, war is still very much a necessary evil.


The term "war" is a rather generic term that, aside from the "war on terror" has also been used over the years to describe the "war on poverty" and the "war on drugs". In any case, even when we hold to the more convential meaning I doubt you'll find many who are completely opposed to "war" as compared to those who see it as a necessary evil to be used in only the most dire circumstances (ie: a last resort).

Personally I support my country's war in Afghanistan as well as its opposition to the war in Iraq. In the case of Afghanistan I see it as a necessary evil in support of our southern neighbour's fight against those who attacked it. This support is not unconditional, however.

I do not support war with Iraq for many reasons. At the top of the list would be the fact that its an unnecessary evil since Iraq had no connection to 9/11, no connection to Bin Laden, no connection to Al Qaeda, had not attacked the United States, and was not even threatening to attack the United States. There were other reasons as well but this one trumped all.

A few favourite quotes of my own:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." -- Samuel Johnson

"A nation which enslaves another forges its own chains." -- Karl Marx

"We all have to be concerned about terrorism, but you will never end terrorism by terrorizing others." -- Martin Luther King III

"Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." -- Herman Goering

[bradclark1]

I do not support war with Iraq for many reasons. At the top of the list would be the fact that its an unnecessary evil since Iraq had no connection to 9/11, no connection to Bin Laden, no connection to Al Qaeda, had not attacked the United States, and was not even threatening to attack the United States. There were other reasons as well but this one trumped all.
Thats my thoughts also.

[Wim Libaers]

The object is to wound.

The object is still to kill, no one trains to wound the enemy.

Right. Besides, the "wounding" hypothesis assumes people just get hit once. In practice, it is safe to assume that soldiers do not like enemies who, while wounded, micht still be able to shoot when you get closer to inspect the casualties. So if there is any doubt about the effectiveness of the bullet, I guess they'd just keep shooting until the enemy certainly wouldn't be a threat anymore.

[Ducimus]

Recruiting has always been about painting that patriotic image full of rhetoric, and romance. This generation, like all generations who enlist, don't have a clear idea of what they're getting into, or its a case of people thinking their special. Alot of People don't think bad things can happen to them, or it will happen to somebody else and not them. I know my kid brother is creeping up to enlistment age soon. He's a boy scout working on eagle scout and all that. I know alot of his buds will enlist. I plan on sitting him down and having a talk with him if i EVER hear about him wanting to enlist. It's his decision to make and i wont get in his way if he does, but im going to make damn sure he knows what to expect so he makes an informed decision, and not the crock of **** the recruiters will feed him.




"War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it. "
- Desiderius Erasmus,