Mod Sanity

[Uber Gruber]

I check in here every day and I have to say the work going on here is first rate! :up:

I do however have one problem, I just cannot keep up with all the mods. Every night over the last two weeks i've been downloading mods, installing them, resolving conflicts, reinstalling them etc. This is why I loved the Grey Wolves and the NYGM Tonnage Mods, all inclusive and easy to install.

Recently though, its become a little chaotic again, I think this has been highlighted by the number posts in the vein:

Q: "does this mod work with v1.1 of NYGM flushing toilet mod ?"
A: "yes but you'll have to sacrifice the snoring captain mod and modify your snitzer valve settings in the googlybox.cfg file."

Therefore, is it possible to have a lockable "stickie" where GreyWolf and NYGM etc project managers (mod reps if you will) can keep the forum posted on their respective supermod progress, compatibilities, known errors etc. I know there are a number of "official threads" for these mods but everyone can post to them such that information is quickly drowned in a sea of afore mentioned posts.

Failing this, perhapps a simple Super Mod progress webpage would suffice.

Just planting seeds...feel free to shout me down.

Cheers.... :roll:

[Boris]

Even better, a single FAQ post with everything on it...

It's always a lot of hassle to sift through multiple posts and pages

[Salvadoreno]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: "snoring captian mod" :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

dude that cracked me up. But i have just given up and i use the NYGM TW war mod with some graphical fixes along with other mods that dont conflict. I tried merging NYGM and GW using extended unified campaign and other crap, but it just resulted in crashes and problems. The next major mod im going to download is a merged NYGM+GW with some graphic mods, the Kreigsmarine mod, and SH3 commander (completed with sabotage and malfunction mods). Ill be a happy guy with that, but until then i ignore the other somewhat useless mods that come out. they arent for me

[blizzard_beast]

It's especially confusing to someone who just got SHIII, I've got what, a years catching up to do!? :rotfl:

[Uber Gruber]

The next major mod im going to download is a merged NYGM+GW with some graphic mods, the Kreigsmarine mod, and SH3 commander (completed with sabotage and malfunction mods).

I would be one big happy bunny with that mod, in fact I was trying to recreate the very same but info on how to merge them seems to be very confusing....that or i'm just really stupid.

My money is on the latter :-?

[JScones]

Believe me you are not alone. Between the "Why doesn't this mod work" and "How do I install/uninstall..." and "Bloody SH3Cmdr has demagnetised my fridge magnets again" posts, I've lost focus and indeed as a result interest.

I want a GW + NYGM TW + RUb combination, but I don't want to go through the "fix for this, tweak for that, undo for the other" torture to get there. Damn it, *I* want to be spoon fed for a change!!!!!

But I do agree that something needs to be done. Although even if we had a sticky in big bright bold red letters titled "WHAT MODS *YOU* REALLY SHOULD GET" the forum would still be chokkas with "What mods should I get?" topics.

Even a FAQ is somewhat useless - SH3Cmdr has one, but it doesn't stop the same questions being asked.

Just human nature I guess...

[Stiebler]

It's easy to sympathise with those who want just one or two mods for convenience. The difficulty is that there are so many divergent views on what constitutes an improvement, resulting in a proliferation of mods. A trivial example is the number of mods replacing the officers' icons at the bottom left of the SH3 screen. All perfectly worthy, but who is to say which is best?

A much more serious problem is exemplified by Rubini's Harbour Traffic mod and the Unified Campaign Files. It is obvious from posts in this forum that many people think that HT is wonderful, and want it in every campaign file. Others think that to take 10 minutes to get out of harbour, owing to the slowed frame rate, is too high a price to pay. How can these views be reconciled? The obvious solution is to make HT available only as an overlay for those who want it, but then Rubini has the serious practical problem of making overlays for every new release of a campaign file. Meanwhile, lots of users will be complaining that they can't get the overlay to work.

There really appears to be no good solution - unless people think that the organisers of the major mods should have a veto on which new mods can be released. I doubt if that would be very popular either. It certainly is not practical for the main organisers to keep up with every release of every mod and say whether or not they work with (for example) NYGM.

One really requires a good, but fairly simple, base on which to build. I personally think that Grey Wolves has made a mistake in adding uncritically every conceivable mod to itself, which must make it much harder for users to make changes. NYGM's leaner base is (I think) a much better platform for those who want to customise SH3. It provides better realism, too.

Stiebler.

[Anvart]

It completely agree with Stiebler.

Anvart :hmm:

[VonHelsching]

It's easy to sympathise with those who want just one or two mods for convenience. The difficulty is that there are so many divergent views on what constitutes an improvement, resulting in a proliferation of mods. A trivial example is the number of mods replacing the officers' icons at the bottom left of the SH3 screen. All perfectly worthy, but who is to say which is best?

A much more serious problem is exemplified by Rubini's Harbour Traffic mod and the Unified Campaign Files. It is obvious from posts in this forum that many people think that HT is wonderful, and want it in every campaign file. Others think that to take 10 minutes to get out of harbour, owing to the slowed frame rate, is too high a price to pay. How can these views be reconciled? The obvious solution is to make HT available only as an overlay for those who want it, but then Rubini has the serious practical problem of making overlays for every new release of a campaign file. Meanwhile, lots of users will be complaining that they can't get the overlay to work.

There really appears to be no good solution - unless people think that the organisers of the major mods should have a veto on which new mods can be released. I doubt if that would be very popular either. It certainly is not practical for the main organisers to keep up with every release of every mod and say whether or not they work with (for example) NYGM.

One really requires a good, but fairly simple, base on which to build. I personally think that Grey Wolves has made a mistake in adding uncritically every conceivable mod to itself, which must make it much harder for users to make changes. NYGM's leaner base is (I think) a much better platform for those who want to customise SH3. It provides better realism, too.

Stiebler.

Stiebler,

Although I agree in your first three paragraphs, I'm afraid I'm a little bit confused in your last paragraph. Can you please elaborate on the "uncritically every conceivable mod" part?

[JScones]

I love GW, don't get me wrong. And I'm sure some day I will love GW+NYGM even more.

BUT, I think that GW got some (not all) things around the wrong way. It included the huge seafloor textures by default, but provided the default SH3 files as an overlay. It should have been the other way around, and selectable as part of the installation. Likewise the grey contacts.

There's a fine balance, and indeed a "boundary" with releasing large scale mods. Some mods are specifically marketed to a defined segment (ie NYGM and RUb) and RUb particularly makes no apologies about that (and nor should it). Whereas GW is (even marketed as?) more mainstream and "accessible" to all levels of players. Including by default grey contacts, or the huge sea floor textures, or a set atmosphere mod challenges the boundaries of some "middle of the road" players. The end result of course being "how do I get rid of X", followed closely by "here's a mod which replaces GW's X with the stock X". A very redundant approach.

Essentially, my view is that GW should include by default all "bug" fixes, corrections, new additions (like ships and the like) and mods which have become the accepted standard (like decks awash). Anything that can be considered debatable (the test being "how would a newbie react to this" compared to "how would a realism freak react to this") should be optional with either nothing included by default, or a mix of the two extremes (Syxx_Killer's Ship ID compromise is a perfect example). Also in this category would be a reduced HT (50% of the difference between stock and full HT) mod by default with options to go all or none. Not in this category would be any realism tweaks that *reduce* the difficulty of the stock game - they go in by default (like RUb's changes to the promotion renown values, more realistic promotions which are quicker than stock). Such changes appeal to both ends of the spectrum albeit for different reasons.

Then, there'd be no more need to re-package and release as mods stock game files (and I still can't believe we do this).

This is where I think...<shudder>"U-Boat: Battle in the Mediterranean" has got it right. Look at its (default) enhancements. Nicely rounded for all levels of players and with nothing overly "surprising" for someone that doesn't read the readme file.

As you know VonHelsching, we've discussed this exact subject elsewhere. ;)

Now, having said that, I'm not a big fan of the "lean" approach either. It just sparks the "does X work with NYGM", "what mods are compatible with NYGM" and so on. A lot of players, me included and I like to think that I can work my way around SH3's data files, just want a one-stop-shop. Even if it is a basic installation with extra selectable options that *I* can choose.

I have a dream...

[Uber Gruber]

This is interesting debate (and god I hope it stays that way :-)

It seems to me that mods (excluding utilities) fall into two classifications, namely:

1) Graphical (visual enhancements)
2) Realism (game engine enhancements)

Furthermore, these two classes can be subdivided into the following categories:

i) Accepted improvements to the stock game
ii) Debated improvements to the stock game

I'm hoping that this debate might help us pool our heads to find some standard for mod development and release which is obviously required. This will be difficult because some mods rely on "file replacement" rather than "file editing", such that two seperate mods may clash if they replace the same stock file.

But if the mod community could converge on an accepted stock improvement mod then that would be a first step. Then debated improvement mods could be released as overlays to this.

If a few of the guys here could also work on building a modding framework for all modders to use then I think we will start making good progress.


I also notice that mod camps have developed over time....my first mod camp was RuB which was ground breaking in its day. I then moved to NYGM and now use Extended Unified GW and NYGM (even though i'm still not fully sure what that means).

My point though is that I joined these camps, so to speak, based on the postings of others. I soon learnt that SH3Commander and JSGME were cool tools (both of which might yet still lead us out of the mod quagmire), likewise by reading these forums I learnt that RuB was worth downloading and installing.

If posters could list the core mods they use then newbies, once joinging a particular camp, need only download and install the listed mods.

These are just ideas but I really do think it would be worth devoting some energy to stopping the mods taking over the world...sorry, I mean my precious SHII play time

:up:

[VonHelsching]

As you know VonHelsching, we've discussed this exact subject elsewhere. ;)



We certainly did, Stanley :-j

Certainly there were some mini-mistakes like the seafloor, but hey; people are doing this in their free time. But that's why I say thank you for SH3Crd and thank them for GW :rock:

But, you know, a lot of compromises must be made in order to (critically -I would rather say-) gather all those mods and unite them in a working package.

Some users might say I want X instead of Y, but that's what providing options is all about (and future patches too).

IUB, GW and NYGM were a success story without doubt. Look at how many new and returning players are posting in the forums.

[JScones]

Certainly there were some mini-mistakes like the seafloor, but hey; people are doing this in their free time. But that's why I say thank you for SH3Crd and thank them for GW :rock:
Yes. One must not forget that overall these mistakes were minor and (somewhat) easily rectified. Although, I think that the one thing about GW that has sparked the most confusion and hence questions, has been the installation of it!

Personally, I felt that the installation detracted from an otherwise very professional product. It took some of the focus away from the great work because...well...people couldn't get to see the great work! We've discussed this, acknowledged it...but it's gone nowhere.

Anyway, my comments are reflection as opposed to criticism. Just something to ponder along with all the questions raised by GW users. Arguably, with a few extra inclusions, GW could be considered the first real free "unofficial expansion pack". But with that label comes a step up in marketing and packaging. But the ship is being well guided and I'm sure Kpt Lehmann has everything under control.

IUB, GW and NYGM were a success story without doubt. Look at how many new and returning players are posting in the forums.
Let's not forget RUb either - I think it was essentially the first "super mod" and has been the foundation for many subsequent mods, both large and small (including IUB). I actually run a GW/RUb amalgam.

[malcymalc]

I am enjoying this discussion very much (and i am glad to see it has not turned "flaming" yet).

I currently run with just SH3Cmdr + JSGME and NYGM.

To be honest I would probably load more things on as well but I had real problems getting NYGM on (TeddyBar was a first rate help tho') and so I am reluctant to mess around with the GW UC mod.

I am also finding that some mods which worked fine before (I liked the map with convoy routes shown, for instance) do not load with JSGME now (I see them available, move them across in the normal way but no change in the game).

Likewise some of the new ships being turned out are not showing up in the Ship Recognition Manual or Library even though JSGME says they have been loaded.

I am sure this is my stupidity rather than a fault in any of the programming - but I guess I am example of how a mod needs to be idiot proof to reach the largest possible audience.

Frankly I do not want to go into individual files making adjustments, and I am sure there are many others out there who feel much the same way to a greater or lesser degree, depending on their confidence.

Malcolm

[Stiebler]

Von Helsching said:
Can you please elaborate on the "uncritically every conceivable mod" part?

I don't doubt that the GW team considered carefully (or critically) every alternative for every mod that was added to GW, and then selected the one they liked best. And we needn't argue about how one defines 'best'; we can all agree that sometimes judgements have to be made.

What troubles me is whether anyone asked critically if a mod had to be added at all. The much criticised sea-floor textures provide a good example. What purpose did they serve? Did anyone demand to have them? And - most important of all - how come they were not tested on a *standard* computer (meeting SH3 minimum specifications), instead only on a top-end computer? The problem must have been seen at once if tested with a standard computer.

Stiebler.

[JScones]

I am enjoying this discussion very much (and i am glad to see it has not turned "flaming" yet).
YET?!? LOL!

I am also finding that some mods which worked fine before (I liked the map with convoy routes shown, for instance) do not load with JSGME now (I see them available, move them across in the normal way but no change in the game).
Mod compatibility problem perhaps? :hmm:

Wasn't there a typo in GW 1.1's menu_1024_768.ini file which meant that the convoy route map was ignored? Have you installed the subsequent mini-patch (sorry, I can't remember which of the GW threads it's on)? It might help...unless of course you're talking about something else altogether.

[GlobalExplorer]

Von Helsching said:
Can you please elaborate on the "uncritically every conceivable mod" part?

I don't doubt that the GW team considered carefully (or critically) every alternative for every mod that was added to GW, and then selected the one they liked best. And we needn't argue about how one defines 'best'; we can all agree that sometimes judgements have to be made.

What troubles me is whether anyone asked critically if a mod had to be added at all. The much criticised sea-floor textures provide a good example. What purpose did they serve? Did anyone demand to have them? And - most important of all - how come they were not tested on a *standard* computer (meeting SH3 minimum specifications), instead only on a top-end computer? The problem must have been seen at once if tested with a standard computer.

Stiebler.

I used the seafloor texture even before GW came out and they never caused problems. They look absolutely fantastic. What I don't understand is that they are allegedly causing such a fps hit, because without GW they ran fine on my system.

I cannot comment on testing policies but I think that GW definitely is too large. A week ago I started downloading it from an internet cafe and had to quit halfway. For a mod this large two separate gameplay/graphics packages are almost a must.

I will finally get to play it one day, but I don't think I can keep up if every patch is 400MB and upwards. Also keep in mind that with all this stuff ends up in memory, so the size adds to the fps problems.

[GlobalExplorer]

To not completely miss the topic of this thread, here's my take on the situation as it stands today.

Ideally there should be:

- A basic community patch that adds all agreed gameplay fixes / features and serves as the base for all other mods. Ideally no more than 100-200 Mb

- Community expansions like GW that add another layer of graphics and content. 200 Mb and upwards

- A Modding API, that allows high level modding and mod merging through direct manipulations of all major ShIII files, developed as open source and provided as a dll, which can linked from many higher level languages.

- Wikipedia to all things modding Sh3, but only the important ones and no redundancy like in this forum.

Don't wonna sound like a prick but we also need a clear distinction between "modlets" and real mods. I wonder how many major initiatives have already been buried under the umpteenth highres banana texture mod.

GE

[JScones]

- A basic community patch that adds all agreed gameplay fixes / features and serves as the base for all other mods. Ideally no more than 100-200 Mb
I'd agree with that. We need what we can all collectively call an unofficial v1.5 patch (I first said that months ago, before even IUB became a twinkle, but I don't have the scope to drive it). Bug fixes, accepted mods (decks awash and a few others come to mind) and innoculous changes all make it in. It then becomes the minimum SH3 running requirement. Gee, SH3 wouldn't be the first game to go down that path... But who's the brains trust that decides what's in and what's not? Do we open it up to all visitors to rank the top five (possible/existing) things they want in a patch? Get the heads of each major mod (RUb, IUB, NYGM, GW) to decide? A secret squirrel's club by the major modders? I'd be curious what the first approach would yield. Obviously, we all know of some of the fixes that *must* be included, but it would be good to crystalise a whole list.

- A Modding API, that allows high level modding and mod merging through direct manipulations of all major ShIII files, developed as open source and provided as a dll, which can linked from many higher level languages.
We had this discussion months ago...look how far we've gone... Basically unless:
a) a number of the developers are full time (which pretty much excludes every programmer that I know around this forum - we're all working on specific enhancement tools already plus working 9 to 5 jobs);
b) all developers agree on what language to use...and can use that language;
c) mod makers support the concept, get involved and "champion" the tool;

it ain't gonna happen.

Good idea though...but ain't gonna happen. SH3 just hasn't got the broad base of players to draw upon that other games (like Falcon 4.0) has.

- Wikipedia to all things modding Sh3, but only the important ones and no redundancy like in this forum.
Yes, for everyone to ignore, like the current Wiki we have. ;)

I wonder how many major initiatives have already been buried under the umpteenth highres banana texture mod.
:yep:

[GlobalExplorer]

- A Modding API, that allows high level modding and mod merging through direct manipulations of all major ShIII files, developed as open source and provided as a dll, which can linked from many higher level languages.
We had this discussion months ago...look how far we've gone... Basically unless:
a) a number of the developers are full time (which pretty much excludes every programmer that I know around this forum - we're all working on specific enhancement tools already plus working 9 to 5 jobs);
b) all developers agree on what language to use...and can use that language;
c) mod makers support the concept, get involved and "champion" the tool;

it ain't gonna happen.

Good idea though...but ain't gonna happen. SH3 just hasn't got the broad base of players to draw upon that other games (like Falcon 4.0) has.



True, it ain't gonna happen. You know and I know how much work it would be, and it's not likely an unemployed programmer will show up and devote his life to modding SHIII. No.

But we must keep in mind that SHIV is on the horizon, and we have all learned.

If we keep the topic alive there might be a chance we have the structures in place before everybody starts working and the next flood of mods comes over us. That is, if SHIV is as moddable as SHIII, but I'd be surprised if wasn't.

[JScones]

I believe SH4 will utilise SH3's core engine. Well, that's what I read somewhere anyway.

It might be a good time now for interested people (ie us) to get in contact with someone who can get in contact with the devs. Just to give us some basic ideas on what we can expect, so that we can get a head start on the game.

[GlobalExplorer]

I thought about sending them a summary of what I liked about SHIII as well as Sh3Gen's key concepts in the hope that some ideas might influence somebody. But I haven't found the time to write a document, and I don't know how to send it.

It would certainly have more impact if all major modders would collect their ideas / suggestions and send them through an intermediary. I'm sure the devs would be interested, and I think we should give them credit for releasing the "gaming surprise of 2005", at least for adult gamers with an interest in WWII.

[Tonnage_Ace]

GlobalExplorer wrote:
- Wikipedia to all things modding Sh3, but only the important ones and no redundancy like in this forum.

Yes, for everyone to ignore, like the current Wiki we have.


I had to laugh at that observation, about once a month, without fail, someone makes a post asking how to manually target/shoot ships.

Pretty interesting subject you guys are bringing up in this post. Definitely, the great mod arms race is difficult to keep up with. I just finished reading all 11 pages of the SH3 Gen mod thread so I could brush up on all the quirks/problems I may face before I committed to downloading it. This is something I do mostly, before downloading a mod, although it's better to start reading a thread when it first begins, when the mod is released, thereby following it along as everyone finds/discusses/solves the problems there having. God help you if you just get into the middle of the discussion, like I did with SH3 Gen(thanks to Captain America who 'revived' that thread or else I wouldn't have found this great addition to SH3).

It would be naive to think that the devs or someone UBI has hired, to research what the SH3 community thinks about the game and how it could improve, aren't watching these forums. Market research I think they call it? Some formal document guiding UBI as to how they should go about making 'the best subsim ever' doesn't need to be written. I wouldn't doubt that the devs who are working on SHIV and play SH3 in their free time have many of the fantastic mods that are out there, installed on their systems.

I think we can all agree about one thing: an SDK released prior to(which is what Valve did before HL2, so the community could get a headstart) or after the launch of SHIV would make the game better and the community much more productive.

[VonHelsching]

Von Helsching said:
Can you please elaborate on the "uncritically every conceivable mod" part?

I don't doubt that the GW team considered carefully (or critically) every alternative for every mod that was added to GW, and then selected the one they liked best. And we needn't argue about how one defines 'best'; we can all agree that sometimes judgements have to be made.

I agree. And about the "best" part, I think that "best" is what makes someone enjoy the game more :up:



What troubles me is whether anyone asked critically if a mod had to be added at all. The much criticised sea-floor textures provide a good example. What purpose did they serve? Did anyone demand to have them? And - most important of all - how come they were not tested on a *standard* computer (meeting SH3 minimum specifications), instead only on a top-end computer? The problem must have been seen at once if tested with a standard computer.

Stiebler.

I understand. Maybe the seafloor was very heavy for some computers. BTW, you should see it; it's a work of art. Pitty that the modder Tanker IV is not around this game anymore.

But everyone is entitled to make mistakes. The GW team has given us - among other things - a unique graphical and sound environment that makes you feel that this is the next version of the game. Not that I do not appreciate all the teams of Rub, IuB, NYGM that have devoted their free time to give us users a "global" solution, specialised for every taste.

VonHelsching

[malcymalc]

Actually, I do not really care about SHIV (unless some of the ships or programming ideas could be imported into SHIII) because, frankly, the American submarine campaign in the Pacific leaves me cold.

I like being a Uboat commander strangling the lifeline to the poor plucky Brits etc (okay I know in reality they never came close but it is fun "glossing over" that minor detail) and there is plenty of life left in SHIII for me.

So I am hoping that a lot of the WIP gets finished before the shiny new programme is produced. If I had a "wants" list I think realistic torpedo performance would have to be way up there, the "Sabotage" mod sounds just my cup of tea if they can work out different problems for different years, and I would love to see better modelling of airpower (eagerly awaiting NYGM Coastal Command mod) not only for the Allies but German attacks on East Coast convoys would be fun (in fact I do not think I have seen an East Coast convoy).

Malcolm

[Tonnage_Ace]

Actually, I do not really care about SHIV (unless some of the ships or programming ideas could be imported into SHIII) because, frankly, the American submarine campaign in the Pacific leaves me cold.
I feel the same way, I like the fact that you start out sailing the friendly seas, sinking everything with impunity for years and being feared by many, then things start to go against you. But the Pacific campaign for the yanks might make a great career:

1. More action: they sank half of the Japanese merchant fleet(or limited the resource shipments to the extent that half of the merchant fleet was disabled by '45). That means there will be no shortage of things to sink and tonnage per patrol will probably be higher than a u-boat captain's because American subs had more firepower(6 tubes fore and 2 aft, plus plenty of guns on deck), plenty of range because their subs were bigger and had as much range as a IX boat.

2. Change of scenery: plenty of beautiful atols and tiny islands dot the south Pacific. More countries mean greater reliance on intel as to who is an ally and who is an enemy. Absolutely huge ocean, many different climates and places to go, much more varied than the Atlantic.

3. Seas are alive: with such a mix of islands apart from the mainland and so many different countries which rely on shipping, there will be plenty of different types, styles of ships to see/log/sink.

I think the devs have made a logical choice as to the next step the Silent Hunter series should take.

[Seminole]

I check in here every day and I have to say the work going on here is first rate! :up:

I do however have one problem, I just cannot keep up with all the mods. Every night over the last two weeks i've been downloading mods, installing them, resolving conflicts, reinstalling them etc. This is why I loved the Grey Wolves and the NYGM Tonnage Mods, all inclusive and easy to install.


Just planting seeds...feel free to shout me down.

Cheers.... :roll:


On the contrary...you have a brillant idea.


I have spent the last 2-3 weeks installing all the various combinations of mods and the supermods before I decide to launch into an involved career.

Even installing GW and Tonnage in a unified campaign combo ...though they always seem to work together ...no two combined versions seem to come out precisely the same way ...one has this recognition manual....another a different one. One has this set of map tools another install I get a different set. ect....ect....then I get to thinking did I forget to do something I should have or screw up the install.

About the time I think I am ready to begin a career something new pops up or I discover a must have mod that I missed....then it is install it and begin a new career ...or worse yet... screw things up so badly...I am forced to. :rotfl:


How absolutely helpfull it would be to have a comprehensive mod manual/article uncluttered by questions and answers.