Is LWAMI mod a cheat?

[Sonoboy]

I've heard that some people are calling the LWAMI mod a cheat. I'm curious to know why some people think of it that way.

[Bellman]

Well for starters - what have you heard.? I guess you could'nt resist asking the accusers why ? :hmm:

Does'nt Stock auto TMA cheat ? What do we mean 'cheating' anyhow ? Most game software takes 'short-cuts'

The only suggestion I have of ' a difference' (not sure its only LwAmi) is that manual sonar pops up out
of the blue, even as I'm distracted having a cup of tea, with ''You have a new contact...'' Ghostly !!
Now I might unawarse have clicked on that bearing sometime previously but not recently
and I dont think that is the case.

I would want some real evidence before making any judgement and in view of the general high regard in
which LwAmi is held and the respect we have for Amizaur and LuftWolf I think we owe them intelligent
and reasoned criticism, if that is appropriate. AND certainly before any voting takes place !!!!! :hulk:

[Kapitan]

If its about the cheat's post end this one now while you still can.

As for lwami mod being a cheat no but it does and can mess up doctrine files if you play a stock 103 game with it so ive heard anyway.

[Deathblow]

Why do some people think that LW&A mod is a cheat?

Seems like stock game would be the cheat with the "torps detonating on CM" problem.

[Driftwood]

It most certainly is not a cheat. It's a realism modification to the stock game that allows users of the mod (me included) to have a more RL simulation. As with any mod, you must be careful when switching back and forth between Stock 1.03 and Lwami 3.02 or you can get a "confused" database. And you should NEVER play another person unless both of you are using the same DB and doctrine files (either stock or Lwami) because you will get VERY strange game behavior. DW alerts players when someone doesn't have the same DB and doctrine files that you have. If you continue into a dive after you get that warning beware that you will have erratic game behavior.

[OKO]

Why do some people think that LW&A mod is a cheat?


because there is some stupid people at every game
Especially at evolued and complicated games like this one, where lots of confusion could be made beetween real bugs and own failures.
People calling LWAMI a cheat could be also people afraid of the new amount of data you need to learn to have a more realistic simulation : It's so easier to say "it is a cheat" than to say "I can't play with it because it's much harder and I'm badly lost".
Another part of these peoples will say it's a cheat because someone "said it's a cheat", even if they don't even know what they are talking about ...

Here is why some dumbass says LWAMI is a cheat.
But fortunatly, you have your eyes, you learned to read, and so you could take a look at the readme of the LWAMI where you will notice every change made for this patch, and better understand how stupid could be the assertion : LWAMI is a cheat


Seems like stock game would be the cheat with the "torps detonating on CM" problem.

not only this one, DOZEN of "cheat" removed, like real torpedo seekers and not the biggest seeker of the game for all.
There is so many improvments, stupid people should have learn to read to be aware of what they are talking about.

[goldorak]

DW alerts players when someone doesn't have the same DB and doctrine files that you have. If you continue into a dive after you get that warning beware that you will have erratic game behavior.

No, Dw only alerts players when they have different databses, but it doesn't absolutely control the doctrine files since independently of what doctrine files the players have they will be automatically using those of the host.
So you can have a situation where the host has default database + lwami doctrine files and the players have the default database + default doctrine files and DW won't find anything strange to report.

[OKO]

So you can have a situation where the host has default database + lwami doctrine files and the players have the default database + default doctrine files and DW won't find anything strange to report.

And in this case, only the AI is concerned, of course.
So, basically, all players will have the LWAMI upgraded doctrine version instead of the stock version because the host have it.

In this case, the only change will concern the AI behavior and that's all.
In fact, it's really not a big deal to have improved version for AI, is it ?

[goldorak]

And in this case, only the AI is concerned, of course.
So, basically, all players will have the LWAMI upgraded doctrine version instead of the stock version because the host have it.

In this case, the only change will concern the AI behavior and that's all.
In fact, it's really not a big deal to have improved version for AI, is it ?


No Oko, the issue is not about using improved doctrines, its about letting the players know what doctrines are being used.
Not knowing what doctrines are used can be used as an advantage of the hoster.
He modifies in certain way the doctrines, modifications to which only he is privy and when he starts a match all the players think there is no problem because they are all using the default database but they don't know that the doctrine files have been tampered with.
I find the issue disturbing, don't you ? :hmm:

There has to be beside the database validty check a validity check also on the doctrines files, so every player has the same doctrine files in multiplayer.

[Palindromeria]

The only suggestion I have of ' a difference' (not sure its only LwAmi) is that manual sonar pops up out
of the blue, even as I'm distracted having a cup of tea, with ''You have a new contact...'' Ghostly !!
Now I might unawarse have clicked on that bearing sometime previously but not recently
and I dont think that is the case.

I am using stock 1.03 and this happens every now and again.
i assumed it was the ai kickin in to save me from myself -
trying to tell me i should have noticed it already or something .. dunno.

in any event its nothing to do with LWAMI

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LWAMI

the mod is not a cheat.

but

the person who knowingly changes game files to their advantage against unsuspecting opponents IS.

[Driftwood]

I stand (or sit) corrected! And I see your point about an unscrupulous player using this to his/her advantage. Especially if only doctrines pertaining their own platform were "adjusted." That make's it more important that we truly "know" our sim and the capabilities of the platforms, weapons and sensors for stock DW and modded play. Knowledge is power and should be our major defense against cheats. Your idea about a check comparison for doctrine files seems to be a good one.

[Fish]

I think cheaters will be found and left alone very quick, the community will act like a village announcer here. :-j

[goldorak]

I think cheaters will be found and left alone very quick, the community will act like a village announcer here. :-j

Maybe it could work in some cases where cheating is conspicous, but what happens if a player decides to subtly change the doctrine files to his advantage ?
Would the other players even recognise that cheating is occuring ?
Thats why i think that the game engine should provide a check on the doctrine files, enforce that fact that every player must have the same files (even if in the actual game the engine uses only the doctrine files of the hoster).

[LuftWolf]

Yes, LWAMI is a horrible, horrible cheat. :-j

You guys just don't know it yet... :lol:

[OKO]

I've heard that some people are calling the LWAMI mod a cheat. I'm curious to know why some people think of it that way.

I've heard that Sonoboy is a green and small E.T. coming from Andromeda.
I'm just curious to know why some people think of him that way.

:-j

[Bellman]

He posed the question quite properly and might have added ''discuss.'' Nothing wrong with that.

[Orm]

I've heard that some people are calling the LWAMI mod a cheat. I'm curious to know why some people think of it that way.

I've heard that Sonoboy is a green and small E.T. coming from Andromeda.
I'm just curious to know why some people think of him that way.

:-j

What I see? People unable to discuss seriously with others about something. :down: In that way they discredit themselves in the face of others. But that's perhaps not so bad, in fact. :hmm:

[Sonoboy]

If you want my opinion, I don't think LWAMI is a cheat.

When I go onto GameSpy, just about all the games hosted are standard 1.03. I asked someone about why a LWAMI game is rarely hosted, and he responded that some people think it's a cheat.

Now, I'm not at all saying that all people that host standard 1.03 games think that LWAMI is a cheat. After playing through HyperLobby, and seeing that most gameshosted there, at least when I was around, used LWAMI, I thought the trend would continue in GameSpy.

It's just an observation I had, and wanted some community feedback.

[Bellman]

Yes I have had the same experience at Gamespy - invariably lately the host used Stock 1.03.

Do'nt know why - will ask in future and try and convert !! I think as Molon said elsewhere players have
expectations of LwAmi performance from early version experience not appropriate to the current version.

Not an easy message to convert with so it may help if LuftWolf summarised and publicised the current situation ! :yep:

[OKO]

He posed the question quite properly and might have added ''discuss.'' Nothing wrong with that.

That's right, was just a small joke :roll:


What I see? People unable to discuss seriously with others about something. In that way they discredit themselves in the face of others. But that's perhaps not so bad, in fact.

What do I see ? people taking a small joke too seriously ?
In that way they discredit themselves in the face of others. But that's perhaps not so bad, in fact.
;)

take it easy Orm, that's not a big deal, don't take it to the first degree ... :|\

I used some small sarcacisms just because usual gamers at gamespy think LWAMI is a cheat when they didn't even take a look at the readme to understand why they have more problems with LWAMI than with stock DW.
In fact, LWAMI kill most of the gameplay compromise made by SCS to find a larger audience, to give more realistic settings.

In fact, this is stock DW who have some cheats compared to LWAMI ... because of this gameplay choices.


It's just an observation I had, and wanted some community feedback.
And you were right about that.
if you want to have some fun, ask them why they think LWAMI is a cheat.
You should laught about the answers ;)

[Orm]

He posed the question quite properly and might have added ''discuss.'' Nothing wrong with that.

That's right, was just a small joke :roll:


What I see? People unable to discuss seriously with others about something. In that way they discredit themselves in the face of others. But that's perhaps not so bad, in fact.

What do I see ? people taking a small joke too seriously ?
In that way they discredit themselves in the face of others. But that's perhaps not so bad, in fact.
;)

take it easy Orm, that's not a big deal, don't take it to the first degree ... :|\

I used some small sarcacisms just because usual gamers at gamespy think LWAMI is a cheat when they didn't even take a look at the readme to understand why they have more problems with LWAMI than with stock DW.
In fact, LWAMI kill most of the gameplay compromise made by SCS to find a larger audience, to give more realistic settings.

In fact, this is stock DW who have some cheats compared to LWAMI ... because of this gameplay choices.


It's just an observation I had, and wanted some community feedback.
And you were right about that.
if you want to have some fun, ask them why they think LWAMI is a cheat.
You should laught about the answers ;)

Ok lets cool off. :D Peace.
On the subject. I can only say that I play with both version and enjoy with both. I win with both and get kill with both. I love so much DW in all its mod. :up:

[LuftWolf]

What's happening on GameSpy and the opinions of people there are of no concern to me. ;)

Anyone who thinks the mod is a cheat is more than welcome to keep that opinion, as its so asinine, the effort to convince them otherwise would simply be a bully job of logic and facts. And this is just a game after all, I hate to shatter a persons world unless there is a good reason. :rotfl:

After all, I as long as Amizaur and I are using the Mod, we are fulfilling out initial goal in making it, so I'm happy with that. The fact that I can play all my MP games using LWAMI is a nice plus, of course, but keeping it in perspective with the intial reasons for making LWAMI, it is an example of wild success, rather than what *should* have been, in my mind anyway.

[LuftWolf]

Not to be flippant, but on the plus side, it is good that Gamespy is being used.

On the downside, I think the doctrine level cheating problem is quite widespread there. Not my kind of place, where widely accepted open-source mods are considered cheats (newbies beware the scourge of LWAMI!) and hosts alter their doctrine and mission files. :down:

[goldorak]

Not to be flippant, but on the plus side, it is good that Gamespy is being used.

On the downside, I think the doctrine level cheating problem is quite widespread there. Not my kind of place, where widely accepted open-source mods are considered cheats (newbies beware the scourge of LWAMI!) and hosts alter their doctrine and mission files. :down:


A little bit (ok not so little bit) of lobbying for scs to fix the doctrine file issue would be :up:

[LuftWolf]

Not to be flippant, but on the plus side, it is good that Gamespy is being used.

On the downside, I think the doctrine level cheating problem is quite widespread there. Not my kind of place, where widely accepted open-source mods are considered cheats (newbies beware the scourge of LWAMI!) and hosts alter their doctrine and mission files. :down:


A little bit (ok not so little bit) of lobbying for scs to fix the doctrine file issue would be :up:

Done. ;) :up:

[Bellman]

After another deeply unpleasant experience in Gamespy on Stock 1.03
I shant be revisiting there :o

Makes the Bronx and Soho look cosy. :down: :damn: :hulk:

[goldorak]

After another deeply unpleasant experience in Gamespy on Stock 1.03
I shant be revisiting there :o

Makes the Bronx and Soho look cosy. :down: :damn: :hulk:

Whats your unpleasant experience ?
Host that is cheating ?
People disconecting during the game without reason ?
Platforms firing tens of torpedos in a random way ?

How about people coming back to hyperlobby ?
It has been a desert for several months now (at least during the evening hours CET).

[OneShot]

As far as LwAmi being a cheat ... well thats a non-brainer as of course it is no cheat. Actually it helps leveling the playing field a lot (for all parties, ie platforms involved).

As far as cheating goes, well if someone feels the need to compensate for his lack of understanding of what the game is about and how you actually play it, then so be it. But don't expect me to play another round with that guy/gal (to be PC here). Hell you don't even need to exploit the game ... for example if you are playing a P-3, just load it up with DICASS to the brink and drop some neat patterns and blast away ... sooner or later you are bound to find something/someone. But is this realistic or fun? Nope ... am I playing that way ? Nope ... Do I propagate those tactics ? Nope again ...

I was told by another player that playing the P-3 with the above mentioned tactic would be too easy ... I said, then stop playing that way and try to aquire your prey with Passive sensors only. His response was expectably .. No thats to difficult. And on top of that, this exact same player prefers to play with 1 or more other players all preferably in Akulas or Kilos (with Stallion/SS-N-27s/Klub), coordinating happily away to lob the aforementioned weapons from far off towards usually non-SUBROC capable US subs. Now that sounds like fun ...

Bottom Line ... I don't condem a certain place (like GS or HL), but I choose with whom and when I play to get the most out of my free time and the most out of my gaming experience.

[Bellman]

G: See ''idiosyncracies'' here and posts at Sonalysts Forums.

Further details of my 'recent' would prejudice my anonymity and be acrimonius.
The first I value the second would be very bad form !

Despite unwarranted aspersions against LwAmi I have to say at GS every single 'bad experience'
has been with hosters of Stock. Fact.

Its Fleet play and MP with trusted players only, for me in future, or abstinence !
I expect this to be a minority viewpont ! :ping: :lol:

[goldorak]

G: See ''idiosyncracies'' here and posts at Sonalysts Forums.

Further details of my 'recent' would prejudice my anonymity and be acrimonius.
The first I value the second would be very bad form !

Its Fleet play and MP with trusted players only, for me in future, or abstinence !
I expect this to be a minority viewpont ! :ping: :lol:


I don't think that is a minority viewpoint.
Its a natural consequence of the game going mainstream that a lot of new players want the "shoot everything in sight experience", the point is either you find a number of honest players who stick to realistic tactics or try to enroll in some virtual fleet.
I enjoyed playing a lot realistic multistation mp scenarios made by Furia, but now its several months he doesn't propose anything :(

[Doc Savage]

<snip>
Hell you don't even need to exploit the game ... for example if you are playing a P-3, just load it up with DICASS to the brink and drop some neat patterns and blast away ... sooner or later you are bound to find something/someone. But is this realistic or fun? Nope ... am I playing that way ? Nope ... Do I propagate those tactics ? Nope again ...
<snip>


Is this considered cheating in MP (dropping DICASS)?
I don't play P3 much but I do like the FFG7 and I routinely make my helo drop DICASS 25-30 nm ahead of me so to get any subs out of range of my TA.
Also, like to drop DICASS deep to chase a sub above the layer...

[OneShot]

Using DICASS is no cheat at all. Reason why I brought this example up is that some people suggest or even tend to use exlusively DICASS to find subs. In reality most searches are done by use of passive sensors like Passive Buoys, MAD and similar things. DICASS buoys are expensive and just like with Sub or Surf active sonars they give away their position more easily then they will detect a sub. Example : You are dropping a string of DICASS and turn em active, but your opponent is still 10nm or more away. He will be able to acurately plot all of those buoys from far away while you wont see nothing on your screen. Now he has the choice to either go around your buoys or plot a course with minimal risk of detection which in turn makes our job harder.

But if you use passive sensors only to first get contact and then gain as much information as possible you can keep him in the dark as long as possible. Personnaly I use the DICASS sparsely, for example to drop it in the projected path of the sub I hunt (after I got passive contact) as a final confirmation while I'm on my attack run just short of my release point.

There are other possible uses as well, but the one thing I stay away from is flood the area with DICASS. In reality as a TACCO, once you came back from your mission and unless you really really had to find and destroy a sub, your squadron boss would ask some serious questions why you are toassing out so much money, because those things are quite expensive opposed to pure passive sensors like DIFAR and LOFAR.

[Palindromeria]

Anyone who thinks the mod is a cheat is more than welcome to keep that opinion, as its so asinine, the effort to convince them otherwise would simply be a bully job of logic and facts. And this is just a game after all, I hate to shatter a persons world unless there is a good reason. :rotfl:


:|\

dont waste any more of your energy on this thread, LW

[Doc Savage]

@ OneShot's post
Ah! that makes some sense.

I suppose, with or without DICASS, my helo still has a whole bag-full of tricks to find those evil submariners, plus I have my TACTASS

Thanks for the clarification.