Cheats

[Kapitan]

Just played a game wth a few people and noticed that some players are some how cheating.

They use the LWAMI mods as per normal but when the game says dont use it they just disable it, but it does wonders for thier torps, ie they dont get decoyed and they lock on as sson as they go active regardless if that person is 10 or 15 miles away.

Has anyone seen this?

[MaHuJa]

Presuming that the game engine itself is running uncorrupted, and you're playing with equal databases (i.e. no database difference warnings) then the torpedo sensors will not pick up anything at that range. And the doctrines can do little without the sensor data, and should be controlled by the host in the first place.

I'd like to see the replay, to see what's going on.

[LuftWolf]

One weakness of the DW MP system is that the host is free to make whatever edits to the doctrine files that he sees fit... that is to say, cheating is incredibly easy if you know beforehand what the game setup is going to be. However, the game will at least "work correctly" within the limits of the edits to the doctrine files. The only solution to this is to only play with hosts you trust.

If you get Database warnings when entering a game, then assume the game is not going to work right, whether someone is actively cheating or not... it's basically a waste of time to play when you have had a Database warning, so refuse the game in that case or insist that everyone checks their database to make sure they are running the official LWAMI or stock databases.

[Kapitan]

I was in the game a few months ago but last night a friend of mine who was playing knowticed this too.

If you ever come accross SEMMEN or WORKER321 on game spy dont play them they cheat.

[goldorak]

I was in the game a few months ago but last night a friend of mine who was playing knowticed this too.

If you ever come accross SEMMEN or WORKER321 on game spy dont play them they cheat.

Instead of letting them host the game, why don't you host it. ?
In that case cheating will be absent.

[Kapitan]

Because i cant host for some reason i can only join.

[Palindromeria]

I have found that whenever the database message occurs either the game freezes b4 start or someone perceives something "really strange" has happened at some point during game. whether cheating is ocurring or not i dont care to delve into. some of it has to be lack of awareness.

i find it frustrating when hosts dont kick players when they get this warning. 5 kewl people waste 45 minutes trying to get game out to sea. :(

if it gives you any solace, Kapitan

i sank one of the accused quite easily just a few days ago. :up:

[suBB]

If you ever come accross SEMMEN or WORKER321 on game spy dont play them they cheat.

what makes you say this, kapt

[SKeeM]

Thats a pretty strong accusation Kapt! As much as I hate hackers in any game I hope you have proof to back it up. If not just state that you feel there was a problem with the game you had with them. And people like me will come to our own conclusion based on our respect for you. ;)

[Kapitan]

In all so far ive heard of atleast 6 or 7 people accuse them two alone, my proof will be in the replays, that a friend of mine duke keeps.

[worker321]

kapitain ,do you have proof to say me a cheater?you can show everyone the replay,whether or not I am a cheater just judge by the people.
who say me a cheater,who just a cheater.

[zephyr]

I would be interested in seeing this proof too. I've played with both Worker and Semmen on GAmespy several times and have never noticed any advantage they have over anyone else.

If they cheat, they're not very good (lol) because I'm not the strongest player and have gotten them both at some time or another.

I'm not saying your wrong Kapt.., but let's see what you have and let the juries decide

[worker321]

in that dive I am not the host,just ~CAPT SfdukeDCNO-SSN
as the host.
I think the missiles are not normal because the net is slow
the mines behind me just is my tactics.
kapitain you don't know it ,just show you are lavatorial player of dw.

[suBB]

In all so far ive heard of atleast 6 or 7 people accuse them two alone, my proof will be in the replays, that a friend of mine duke keeps.

kaptian...

your reasoning is bullsh@t .. plain and simple... until you provide proof, you have no proof so your accusation carries no weight..

..and since you brought it up..

i think you owe it to worker321 to PROVE HIM TO BE CHEATING..


ive known of duke since subcommand, duke even mentioned this to me as well.. but what he calls cheating could be just tactics on workers end.. even after dukes brief explanation.. tactically it sounds like wild fish riding.. which is not a cheat .. AND he even sent me the replay.. but i know fish riding when i hear it.. so i left it and that and didnt bother with the replay.. and if thats the case.. it should be learned from and respected as new found tactics, instead of a blatent, simple-minded 'hes cheating' basically because 'ive never seen that trick before and ive been playing for years and years, blah, blah, blah'

and being stock 1.03/no mods, since that all duke plays and standard ROE for his virtual fleet, its a simple game-set in itself..

@ the usual 'motley crew' :rotfl:

got a hot n fresh mission objective in the oven.. with everything on it.. :yep: ill probably need some help play testing it to see if my triggers are working ok.. ill look for you and others later.

[Capt Newt-iCoP]

I would bet the ounce of gold that sits next to my 1911 on my desk that Worker is not Cheating.

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48677

when one of the many patches came out Worker asked me to report this in Feb. For some reason he has had some problem with his database (I assume) for some time. I know things look crazy in the replays. He told me he has re-installed and it still did not solve the problem. It's easy to accuse someone of cheating and some have gone TOO FAR already, this has been brewing for a couple of weeks, but Worker has been telling me about it for months. I don't know the answer to fix this problem. What ever the problem is, Calling him a Cheater is not the answer.

Have Fun
Newt
[/img]

[XabbaRus]

Lag produces interesting things sometimes Kapitan. You really learn to engage brain before accusing people of cheating with no proof.

In actual fact it seems to me to be very difficult to cheat on-line with DW. You mess around with the DB you can't get a game going.

[Molon Labe]

What is "wild fish riding?"

If it's a cheat or exploit, please limit responses to private messages please. Thanks.

[LuftWolf]

If it is something that is already known by a wide portion of the community, then wouldn't it be better for this to be as widely published as possible? :hmm:

[Molon Labe]

It isn't clear that the knowledge is widespread. And, no.

[LuftWolf]

It isn't clear that the knowledge is widespread. And, no.

Well, it is now... so we might as well go ahead and have them explain it.

The only consequence of this now is that a few more people will know about the cheat, those who sought the info from those who use it already, if there is someone out there who will tell us all, then we all know about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.

[goldorak]

Well, it is now... so we might as well go ahead and have them explain it.

The only consequence of this now is that a few more people will know about the cheat, those who sought the info from those who use it already, if there is someone out there who will tell us all, then we all know about it, and I can only see that as a good thing.

I agree, the more people know about this exploit or cheat, the more it will be difficult to use it in multiplayer games.
If a lrage part of the comunity is kept in the dark, then by human nature, some players in the know will use this "feature" to gain advantages in matches.

[MaHuJa]

What is "wild fish riding?"

Last I heard that expression, it referred to running right after your own torpedo.

If the targets don't investigate the torpedo's narrowband signature, you might run far, undetected. If they do, you're easily screwed. Plus, they might launch on the bearing of the TIW, and snap you up that way.

[Orm]

What is "wild fish riding?"

Last I heard that expression, it referred to running right after your own torpedo.

If the targets don't investigate the torpedo's narrowband signature, you might run far, undetected. If they do, you're easily screwed. Plus, they might launch on the bearing of the TIW, and snap you up that way.


This is a tactic, not a cheat, or what?

[kgsuarez]

It is a tactic, not a cheat.

[XabbaRus]

Anyone who has read the Blue Book from Seawolves would know about it.

It has been used for a long time. Ask Fish.

It is a legitimate tactic and if used right can help you score a kill.

For Kapitan to come on to the forum and accuse someone of cheating without giving specifics is irresponsible.

[Driftwood]

Anyone who has read the Blue Book from Seawolves would know about it.

It has been used for a long time. Ask Fish.

It is a legitimate tactic and if used right can help you score a kill.

For Kapitan to come on to the forum and accuse someone of cheating without giving specifics is irresponsible.

Bingo! :up: You can get the Bluebook on Bill's website. www.subguru.com

[Kapitan]

Xabbarus i accused and then also offerd evidence, however you obviously are a bit blind to this when i said i can get copys of the replays to prove this point, not only that alot of people have complained about these two in hyperlobby and also in gamespy so im not alone.

Get some thicker glasses :up:

[Molon Labe]

Well I guess I'll be needing thicker glasses too, because I don't see any evidence or offers of it either.

(And yes, I've read the Blue Book, I just didn't know that tactic had a name, and never would have though that torps locking on "from 15 miles away" had anything to do with it.)

[Kapitan]

According to an unnamed member of a unnamed fleet slight doctrine changes shouldt show up when the guy host's.

i state clearly that i have replays do i not?

[XabbaRus]

Careful what you say Kapitan.

Although not knowing the dbase so in depth as Luft I can't see how it is possible to mod one's database in such a way to give yourself an advantage and not be found out. You should get a dbase error message.

DW is well known to act funny if there is a bit of lag in the connection eg torps warp from place to place, subs jump from one location to another in an instant.

A replay will just repeat what it records, so if you get lag and a jump it will show that.

Maybe the other people who have complained just aren't that good and get sunk easily.

[Kapitan]

I will show Luftwolf when ever i find him these replays, and il run through it with him, also the players involved are excelent players infact train people, and they know a bad fish when they smell one.

But il triple check everything and then should i find anything il post up.

[XabbaRus]

According to an unnamed member of a unnamed fleet slight doctrine changes shouldt show up when the guy host's.

i state clearly that i have replays do i not?

Yea that is because the host's doctrines are used. So if his doctrines are altered then you will be using them too. Now unless the dbase values have been altered to take into account doctrine changes then there is no advantage. Also if dbase changes have been made than there will be an error and no-game due to you not having the altered dbase.

so who is this mystery player from a mystery fleet...why the secrecy?

[goldorak]

According to an unnamed member of a unnamed fleet slight doctrine changes shouldt show up when the guy host's.


Care to elaborate on this ?
It would be helpfull to know if the doctrine files are tampered on the host's computer when one is playing.

[XabbaRus]

AFAIK there is no way to know if they have been changed short of jacking into the hosts pc, taking his doctrines and then comparing them with your own ones.

I am sure that SCS could come up with some sort of doctrine checker since obviously it can tell if the dbases are different but it would mean looking at many text files and that could be why as it would have to parse them.

The exe check probably uses some checksum device....

[Kapitan]

I am working on that right now goldorak

[Molon Labe]

According to an unnamed member of a unnamed fleet slight doctrine changes shouldt show up when the guy host's.

i state clearly that i have replays do i not?

Yes, but that is neither presenting evidence nor offering it.

[goldorak]

AFAIK there is no way to know if they have been changed short of jacking into the hosts pc, taking his doctrines and then comparing them with your own ones.

I am sure that SCS could come up with some sort of doctrine checker since obviously it can tell if the dbases are different but it would mean looking at many text files and that could be why as it would have to parse them.

The exe check probably uses some checksum device....

Well, i think that it is a design oversight that the doctrines files are not checked against the default files.
All we should need would be a way for the host computer to tell the client computers whether its using the default doctrines files or a modded version.

[suBB]

so who is this mystery player from a mystery fleet...why the secrecy?
When you add it all up, very good chance this is sfduke of
www.silentsharksnavy.com As he is the only one so far @ gamespy hosting vs dives/1.03/no mods and taking in newcomers and those who perfer not luami 3.02/no autotma .. And apparently worker321 didn’t make the cut 'nudge' :)

[Kapitan]

Im not confirming anyone in this, whats more can the guy screaming at me about not offering evedence please read page one.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

We don't care. I hadn't played in the MP arena yet but I know accusing people of cheating is a serious matter. You should have assembled enough evidence to charge him beyond reasonable doubt before you even bothered to speak up.

The replays may indeed be in this mysterious "Duke" guy's place, but until you present them, you have presented nothing.

So, forget all that. Can you promise everyone interested a hard date and time before which you will have the replays available for everyone's perusal?

[Kapitan]

As ive said im working on it all now, in any court case gathering evedence takes a long time not five minuets i know im involved in a high profile case right now.

The evedence is all being collected, and i too will be personaly collecting it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

1) Why didn't you finish this lengthy process before making a charge? Not to mention all you need is one replay, no?
2) Even a court won't wait infinitely long for one side to gather his evidence. As long as this matter is not resolved, Worker will be under suspicion as far as the community (at least the factions that trust you will), which will be unfair to him if your charges turn out to be false or mistaken. I think I speak for everyone when I say we are all interested in hearing some definite time limits.

[Kapitan]

Well shouldnt take too long, and your accused first before any evedence is acctualy put against you, thats what is happening now to me.

If the guys are innocent then a rather lengthy appology will be announced, however i dont think it will take longer than a few days to get the proof.

[suBB]

however i dont think it will take longer than a few days to get the proof.

...more horse***t.. :zzz:

it took less than two mouse clicks to accept file transfer of the replay.. and even more time to find it since i forgot where i saved it...

****, if i still had the replay id post it.. i deleted it because i had more important things to do.. like the 3S's at the time..

surely your mystery contact isnt the only source.. your fleet has it, according to the roster, arent you active LCDR of ssn kapitan.. and im VERY SURE chain of command has the replay too..

with all this time passed (less than a days time) then now you are saying a few days to get proof... that doesnt make sense

its one thing to provide evidence.. but its another to fabricate it...


worker321 - continue on with Life... [/i]

[Bellman]

I would just like to make the point that we all from time to time see things in the Replays that we dont understand.
Can I say that in my early SC MP playing days I was guilty frequently of writing to my opponents for an
explanation with a copy of my replay. I can say almost all replies to my courteous enquires were returned in kind
with the opponents own copy of the replay and a friendly explanation. The matter was resolved
without dispute and/or accustaions of any kind by either party.

Lags cause many embarrassing and mysterious things to appear - dont let it get you down -
get on with winning the next game.

[Driftwood]

Well shouldnt take too long, and your accused first before any evedence is acctualy put against you, thats what is happening now to me.

If the guys are innocent then a rather lengthy appology will be announced, however i dont think it will take longer than a few days to get the proof.

Why is anyone on these forums paying ANY attention to this? :rotfl:

No answer required......it's a rhetorical question. :-j

[Kapitan]

Well in that case i wont bother.

[goldorak]

Well in that case i wont bother.

Well, then you should publicly apologise to worker321.
You can't just go telling everyone there are cheaters in the dw community and then not make available any "proof".
Your credibility has just gone under crush depth kapitan. :down:

[Kapitan]

Ive got the proof but driftwood is saying now that he aint and you aint botherd so why should i bother to work on it anymore?

Ive got the replays just getting them transferd to me.

[XabbaRus]

No one is saying they aren't bothered.

I doubt the replays are proof. It will be proof that something funny happened, I doubt it will be proof that they are cheating.

Once again you speak before thinking.

Also drop the drama with "a certain anonymous member of a certain fleet" stuff. Just either name them or don't say anything at all.

It is getting tiresome.

[Kapitan]

I have the replay, and according to dangerfreak and tuck from SSN, this is what happend.

Missiles were fired but he kept them in the water using them as decoys.

Using a mine to run along side his submarine using it also as a decoy.

Active torpedos unable to lock onto him even at a stone throw distance.

Anyone wants the replay i now have it ! id like xabbarus and Luftwolf to go through it

[Bellman]

:lol: That potato wine you drink Kapitan is rotting your brain. :roll: :yep:

First it hits your memory. You forgot LuftWolf and I saw you launch a surf from your sub tubes when testing
LwAMi with us. We did'nt accuse you of cheating ? Sure one of us could dig out a dump or two ! ;)

Ah yes - I remember it well. :rotfl:
I owe you sunshine ! :-j

[Kapitan]

LOL i was firing udaloys :o what a nut anyway it was a test and i have the replay do you want to take a look bellman?

[Bellman]

:rotfl:

You are too hard on yourself Kapitan. :yep:

:-j

PS. With respect (?) its Bellman - can you see the big B Kapitan ? We call it a capital letter and it distinguishes a
proper name. Why not try it right now on UUUUU Udaloy !

[Fish]

Anyone who has read the Blue Book from Seawolves would know about it.

It has been used for a long time. Ask Fish.

It is a legitimate tactic and if used right can help you score a kill.

For Kapitan to come on to the forum and accuse someone of cheating without giving specifics is irresponsible.

I was a wide spread tactic back in the 688(I)HK periode. IIRC, it 'didn't work in SC and probable also in DW.
Although....... with 103 :hmm:

[Fish]

I will show Luftwolf when ever i find him these replays, and il run through it with him, also the players involved are excelent players infact train people, and they know a bad fish when they smell one.

But il triple check everything and then should i find anything il post up.

Could they be SFDuke and Labo?

[Kapitan]

Nope duke was involved in one game but it wasnt him who made the claim.

[Konovalov]

This whole thread is a sorry state of affairs. :down:

Kap, You could have handled this "in-house" via PM's with those involved. Secondly you made the mistake of calling someone a cheat without the evidence to back it up. Sometimes things are not as they seem as people here have mentioned with the strange events attributed to online lag. Have a stiff drink and mull over it young man.

[labo]

MR Fish

Already is talked between organizations to be in peace ,so dont use my nick or others nicks in here for your fun.

PLay and leave BS for the dustbin.


and i hope you check this with your COC

And please dont make me talk.This place is not set for personal revenges is for Submarime Simulations.

Thank you.

[XabbaRus]

Oh please, this is BS.

Wrap it up and move on people.

BTW, Fish is the least vengeful person I know on this board.

[Kapitan]

so my hunch was right i make a claim with evedence, and yet not only do you all dissmiss it, you also dont realy care, it realy does show your mentality when i have good evedence and entire fu*ing replay something which none of you want to see for fear im right.

[Fish]

MR Fish

Already is talked between organizations to be in peace ,so dont use my nick or others nicks in here for your fun.

PLay and leave BS for the dustbin.


and i hope you check this with your COC

And please dont make me talk.This place is not set for personal revenges is for Submarime Simulations.

Thank you.
Edited.
Did I laugh? :-? And what should I check with my coc?

Your remark: And please dont make me talk, gives the impression you know something bad about me, isn't it?
So, it's one out of two, you know nothing bad, and therefore don't give false impressions, or you tell what you know.

[Fish]

so my hunch was right i make a claim with evedence, and yet not only do you all dissmiss it, you also dont realy care, it realy does show your mentality when i have good evedence and entire fu*ing replay something which none of you want to see for fear im right.

Kapitan, could you send me the replay? I have a few years experience investigating replay's. Most however are, as others already mentioned just lag problems.
Since the start of SC, I found two replays where a player was cheating, one was some one who had inside info, he was the designer, and one where two people helped each other against a third person. Both where DW dives.

[Driftwood]

Oh please, this is BS.

Wrap it up and move on people.

BTW, Fish is the least vengeful person I know on this board.

Xabba, I totally disagree with your assessment. This is FAR beyond BS! :up: And your observation about Fish is right on. :yep:

[Kapitan]

Of course flash me your email in P and il send it to you.

[labo]

Kapitain sir, please leave this topic or discussion or whatever and move on.

Sorry for inconviniences sirs.

And have a good one.

As i say is a place to share Submarine Simulations knowledge.

Regarding you MR Fish you brought up here my name on a sarcastic way ,so ........ please leave me alone.

I remember your names also.and i dont brought them up.

[Capt Newt-iCoP]

MR Fish

Already is talked between organizations to be in peace ,so dont use my nick or others nicks in here for your fun.

PLay and leave BS for the dustbin.


and i hope you check this with your COC

And please dont make me talk.This place is not set for personal revenges is for Submarime Simulations.

Thank you.


"What an eccentric proformance"

King Arthur - Monty Python and the Holy Grail

[LuftWolf]

I have seen the replay in question.

Before I make a judgement, however, I want the people doing the accusing to make a clear coherent statement about why they believe the odd behavior in the game, and there was a lot of it, was the result of anything other than lag or random MP corruption?

[Kapitan]

Ive played with worker myself and have found no lag, id severly doubt any of them had lag all of these have excellent pings.

What puzzels me the most is that one missile that hangs around for a long time without moving, not to mention how a torpedo scoots past this guy and lock onto his buddy.

I think personaly it is clear cut.

[LuftWolf]

The missiles are almost certainly the result of lag... also, so someone can make the missiles hangout in the water, but to what advantage is that to them? Based on my experience with the engine, I'd be very surprised if someone could make that happen with doctrines, and again, to what benefit is it?

In regards to the lack of a lock, there are in fact MANY MANY ways that a host could force a torpedo to break a lock using doctrine, not all of them are detectable. This is a major flaw of the DW MP system.

However, I have to decide here based on the evidence presented.

My findings are that the prosecution has failed to meet the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, however there is no exculpatory evidence, so this decision is a decision made in the absense of proof rather than the clarity of the truth.

I'm always open to reinterpretation, should someone who has seen the replay be able to give me a timestamp and a series of events that they feel can only be the results of cheating.

[Kapitan]

But please do explain how lag can make a missile sit in the water for over an hour.

According to the guys playing the setting were as they always were V1.03 no LWAMI mods, this person does have LWAMI mods which id like to know if they can affect other files on other peoples systems, because according to both of the other side they had to totaly reinstall dangerous waters.

The advantage being that leaving a missile hanging there would give out a false signature and make the opposition fire at that while this guy scoots away.

These guys whom were playing are excellent skippers, one of whom trained and still does help me in blue water op's.

[LuftWolf]

I am seeking a second opinion on this from Molon.

We are focusing on things that bother us about the replay that are different than what you are focusing on Kap.

We'll get back to you shortly. :yep:

[Fish]

The missiles are almost certainly the result of lag... also, so someone can make the missiles hangout in the water, but to what advantage is that to them? Based on my experience with the engine, I'd be very surprised if someone could make that happen with doctrines, and again, to what benefit is it?

In regards to the lack of a lock, there are in fact MANY MANY ways that a host could force a torpedo to break a lock using doctrine, not all of them are detectable. This is a major flaw of the DW MP system.

However, I have to decide here based on the evidence presented.

My findings are that the prosecution has failed to meet the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, however there is no exculpatory evidence, so this decision is a decision made in the absense of proof rather than the clarity of the truth.

I'm always open to reinterpretation, should someone who has seen the replay be able to give me a timestamp and a series of events that they feel can only be the results of cheating.

LuftWolf, I just saw the replay, although there is lag during the game ( Workers sub is jumping for/backwards a litle sometimes), I wonder Workers connection could be corrupted.
It's almost as of some data is lost during there voyage to the host computer. As a result the missiles doesn't move.
I don't think Worker is cheating, as at no time during the mission he had any benefit, on the contrary, only detriment.

[LuftWolf]

I don't think Worker is cheating either.

We have to wait to see what Molon says, but at this point I think I can say with some certainty that Worker321 is guilty only of having a bad connection from China on the day this game took place.

[Captain cavitating]

I know of a diver who was sunk in a team dive ,dropped connection,ran the replay and then tried to pass the OPFORS position to his teamates via Ventrilo.
Quote:
"PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASSS HOUSES SHOULD BE EXTRA CAREFUL WHERE THEY THROW STONES" :down:

[Kapitan]

Ok final post in this topic i will no longer pul any person to attention you can find it out yourself.

Also if that last part was aimed at me, i can state clearly and i hope this is crystal clear i will not repeat, that i do get sunk but i do not view the replay i always bypass it, the only time i do ask if anyone wants the information it is taken from last known fix from my sonars.