Warning, Venting: Luftwolf > Sonalyst

[Deathblow]

EDIT: I've pretty much recanted most of this original rant in the few post on the 2nd page. Expressions of blazing negativity usually aren't helpful or useful for the most part. My apologies to SCS for trivializing thier efforts.

Warning: Venting Frustation

How come one modding team working in their spare time, has proven more effective in fixing many of the bugs, shortcomings, and wishlist of the community than the actual developers whose real job is to do so.... what kindof sad sense does that make. And to top it off, the people that are supposed to be improving the product, but moving at a rate that would have me an old man before things are actually accomplished, are forbidding those that could probably do the job as quickly and nimbly from doing so... :hulk: Argh! Such as ball of frustration.

Sorry, my apologies, I just needed to vent that. Yes, yes I know, I know, the corporate world of gamemaking is ripe with snares and snags unappreciated by the layman gamer.... so yes I know that there's probably more to it than that.... BUT.... on the other hand, when I push $60bucks unrefundable for a product, then bugs and pushbacks just don't cut it. Pooh!

*sigh, venting over*

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Warning: Venting Frustation

How come one modding team working in their spare time, has proven more effective in fixing many of the bugs, shortcomings, and wishlist of the community than the actual developers whose real job is to do so.... what kindof sad sense does that make. And to top it off, the people that are supposed to be improving the product, but moving at a rate that would have me an old man before things are actually accomplished, are forbidding those that could probably do the job as quickly and nimbly from doing so... :hulk: Argh! Such as ball of frustration.

Actually, there is an informal division of labor involved. Sonalysts works on the basic theoretical models. Modders then make the best game possible out of each model.

This is good. The modders don't have the expertise to play around with the basic models (like the sonar propagation models) well. Sonalysts is both bound by secrecy regs (which bans them from confirming or denying even stuff that's already floating around outside) and they aren't players, so they don't know what we really want. So, why not split up the effort?

Their job is arguably harder than ours and thus takes longer. We play with text files - they play with the code itself, and to make it possible for us to modify the game using text files, the game has to include extra code for interpreting the text and a capacity for error correction to avoid the whole game crashing when one of the modders types an additional space or anything non-standard when entering his new doctrine.

[Sea Demon]

Very good answer Kazuaki Shimazaki II. :up:

BUT.... on the other hand, when I push $60bucks unrefundable for a product, then bugs and pushbacks just don't cut it. Pooh!

I was unaware that DW is perceived to have so many problems by anybody. I'm having no problem with the game at all. Even though I just posted my wishes for a more capable Harpoon Missile. I'm not minimzing Luftwolf and Amizaur and other modders here, but without Sonalysts these guys wouldn't have anything to mod. I'm just grateful to XabbaRus, Ramius, Luftwolf, Amizaur, etc.....for taking the time to improve an already kick-a$$ product.

Cheer up, Deathblow. Good things come to those who wait. :D

[Bellman]

:D Well said Sea Demon - I agree with all you have said.

We have a superb sim and the modders made it even better. Big thanks to all for working bl**dy hard
to make the game first class. :cool: :yep:

[Deathblow]

Warning: griping, don't read if you don't want to read griping.

Cheer up, Deathblow. Good things come to those who wait. :D

Nope, no it doesn't... not in capitalism anyway. You guys quit sucking up to the game designers. I'm frustrated about 2 things. One is that I hate the current patches physic model. The ascending and descending behaivor's just plain goofy, with the subs rising but then going nose down during the rise and then descending a bit before rising some more. The rising and diving rates are still borked; the boats still rise too fast (and actually gain 3-4 knots speed when ascending :dead: ) and dive too slow. If I could I would go back to the stock physics...

... however, because SCS was so kind to package the bug fixes with a goofy physics model you either have to chose no bugs with goofy physics or annoying bugs but original physics... and that to me is whack. Perhaps if we were able to tap into the engine itself and mess around with the behaviour (buoyancy, etc) we could figure it out (not that I myself could because I'm not a programmer, but collectively as a community), but noooooope, "don't fix the engine" "you have to live with what we give you".

The other is this indefinite hold on, again due to the "don't change the UI" rules, against new player models. The invariable "maybe" coupled with the ubiquitous "perhaps", always accompanied by the good old "possibly" wanting to perhaps one day in the future create one or two new player models for SCS to sale for profit. My experience with other games says that this means that either new playables will never ever happen (I predict about a 50/50 shot or less of ever getting any) or if we do its not going to be for another 3 or so years till actually available (by that time I'll be out of school and DW probably dusty on my hard-drive). The last game-manufacture that I followed hoping for the invariable "someday" had a entire game community waiting for 3 years for features promised before the game was even released.... and they are still waiting and the manufacturers are still promising! Ugh!

Could they be made ourselves, yep, but nooooo don't do anything because SCS *might* could have, sorta, maybe probably, possibly one day in the year 2009 could perhaps sorta maybe want to put out 1 new model............... whoopty doo.

To top it off, things that the community request take so long to accomplish, that its up to persons like LW&A to take things into their own hands to accomplish them before the next presidential election... and request like better FFG helo control, better wire-torp options, launch transits still out of reach and likely to be indefinately ignored.... not that it might be possible to provide from a particulatly motivated and talented modder, but oh wait that's right... don't touch the engine.

So I'm sorry, I'm usually not one to complain... much... but no, I'm not impressed. I'm a gamer, I demand more

[OKO]

Deathblow, this simulation is definitly not for you, you just understand nothing the way it was made and actually developped.
There is NO COMPANY that follow their productions years after the release.

On what you said, you need some easy and fast game like quake, but certainly not a simulation like DW.
So, just move out, and stop moaning here, we don't care about your opinion on a subject you don't understand.

bye bye

[Molon Labe]

No need to be that harsh on him. This thread has been labeled as a venting thread, and those are all legit gripes. (Although the reasons for not allowing PCU have more to do with the profitability of military versions of the game engine, not to preserve the profit of any expansion pack)

[OneShot]

As far as the gripes about the physics modell go I think its continually going forward instead backwards ... unfortunatly other things haven't kept up with that, most notably the planesmen/trim on the sub. I'm just reading a book about subs (written by a british Rear Admiral) and some of the comments about sub behaviour can actually be found in the game, like for example the sub behaving under water and at and above certain speeds like a plane going through air, or the results of using hard rudder at higher speeds. The only problem as mentioned above is that other parts do not work like they should.

So on my end I do see a number of bugs, but most of them have been introduced after other parts of the game have been improved and then mostly as a result because the former "balance" was disturbed.

Still aside from all the bugs, I think that DW as it is now (1.03) is a pretty stable and playable game which offers a lot of fun. Only restriction is to not go down certain paths at the moment or at least know your way around, i.e. when doing certain maneuvers it is not wise to have the TA streamed to full length.

Yes this is not perfect, but then what is ...

[Pirate]

I totally comprehend Deathblow's frustrations about this game!
I myself shared some of them...

This game has been released with enoumerous bugs, this is not big problem as all software has many bugs on it's first release, but development team takes months to address the bugs, and when they do, for surprise of all... new bugs are introduced. :down:

This slowness in supporting this product and introduction of new ones easaly detected on same exact day of the released patches, takes me to think that they really do not care much about it.... and reminds me something that Jsteed said a year ago about this product becoming abandonware. :-?

We are now more than one year after the game was released and have this phisics bug that even a 12 year old would notice first time he would play. lol

I like the game, i really like it!!! But cannot comprehend the lack of attention from developers in addressing the product problems.

Just my opinion... hope no one takes the wrong way!

[LuftWolf]

This game has been released with enoumerous bugs, this is not big problem as all software has many bugs on it's first release, but development team takes months to address the bugs, and when they do, for surprise of all... new bugs are introduced.

Not nearly as many bugs as far less ambitous pieces of software that go retail.

DW is the first simulation of its kind for two important reasons: 1) multistation 2) playable combined arms in a single battlespace

I think its asinine to expect better, even if this game had been developed by a major house, which of course is impossible for reasons we all know.

This slowness in supporting this product and introduction of new ones easaly detected on same exact day of the released patches, takes me to think that they really do not care much about it.... and reminds me something that Jsteed said a year ago about this product becoming abandonware.

This is quite wrong for reasons that I'm not going to enumerate.

In any case, I'd say the basic platform in DW has a 10-20 year lifespan for certain customers, once it is fully developed.

[MaHuJa]

2) playable combined arms in a single battlespace

... what happened to Operation flashpoint?

[Bellman]

:D Flashpoint was a great game - some flaws/glitches yes but light years ahead of competition at the time (IMO)

Spent many glorious hours in that world a few years ago. :|\

[LuftWolf]

My world stops at the doorstep of the consoles. :-j

[goldorak]

My world stops at the doorstep of the consoles. :-j


:gulp: :gulp:
Operation Flashpoint is a pc game Luftwolf.

[Deathblow]

Deathblow, this simulation is definitly not for you, you just understand nothing the way it was made and actually developped.
There is NO COMPANY that follow their productions years after the release.

On what you said, you need some easy and fast game like quake, but certainly not a simulation like DW.
So, just move out, and stop moaning here, we don't care about your opinion on a subject you don't understand.

bye bye

OKO those comments don't even make sense. I've got an idea, why don't *you* stop playing simulations? You should go play...ummm... Mario Bros! Yeah, thats it...Mario Bros. :yep:
If you don't care to read my opinion don't read it Einstein! :lol:
kthxbye :yep:

As far as the gripes about the physics modell go I think its continually going forward instead backwards ... unfortunatly other things haven't kept up with that, most notably the planesmen/trim on the sub. I'm just reading a book about subs (written by a british Rear Admiral) and some of the comments about sub behaviour can actually be found in the game, like for example the sub behaving under water and at and above certain speeds like a plane going through air, or the results of using hard rudder at higher speeds. The only problem as mentioned above is that other parts do not work like they should.

So on my end I do see a number of bugs, but most of them have been introduced after other parts of the game have been improved and then mostly as a result because the former "balance" was disturbed.

Still aside from all the bugs, I think that DW as it is now (1.03) is a pretty stable and playable game which offers a lot of fun. Only restriction is to not go down certain paths at the moment or at least know your way around, i.e. when doing certain maneuvers it is not wise to have the TA streamed to full length.

Yes this is not perfect, but then what is ...

I agree with you alot. I'm just venting frustation. So close to the perfect game, but yet soooooooooooooo far!! Argh! :damn:

Edit: ok, done griping for now... I just had to expression some frustrations, will try to keep it positive from now on.

[LuftWolf]

My world stops at the doorstep of the consoles. :-j


:gulp: :gulp:
Operation Flashpoint is a pc game Luftwolf.

Ok, then my world stops at the doorstep of games my computer is too slow to run. :-j

:lol:

My computer in 2001 was a total hooptie (in college)... my computer now is a servicable laptop with a genuine Nvidia card, but DW is pretty much the limit of its capabilities.

I think I can add Flashpoint to the list of games I want to get when I upgrade, including IL-2 FB *drool*...

[OneShot]

While Flashpoint implemented the concept of differing units/capabilities on one battlefield, it certainly didn't go as far or at least did it that well. While the infantry part was very well designed and is still (except for the graphics) realism wise up to par to most if not all current games/simulations about infantry fights, the other parts i.e. tanks, airplanes and most notably helicopters were a looong shot off and pretty simplified. In the end, OFP, Joint Operations, Battlefield and similar games are at the current stage FPS games or at max Infantry simulations with the added benefit of being able to control a vehicle from a first person perspective and mostly very basic at that.

Bottom line, my opinion is that even tho you can certainly compare the concept of having differing playable units in the same battlespace at the same time, the buck basically stops there as the scope and goal of both games are really different.

[MaHuJa]

I don't know about joint operations, but I do know that bungling ofp in with the bf series is something of a mistake - the pace is sooo different.

Ofp is indeed most realistic as an infantry simulator, but it has the full range of vehicles that make the infantry "position" what it is, including tanks and gunships and fixed-wing aircraft. The big clue is that there isn't anything the ai can do that the player cannot.

It won't hold up to steel beasts in realism for tank crews. The A-10 is far more realistic in Lock-on - but as far as the combined battlespace goes, OFP was (and perhaps still is) the most realistic.

I do know that VBS, an offshoot of sorts, is used as a military trainer.
(Kinda like Steel Beasts Pro)


Ok, then my world stops at the doorstep of games my computer is too slow to run.

Requirements (recommended)
Pentium2/400 (3/600)
64Mb RAM (128)
3d graphics card with 16Mb (32) ram, 8 if using Voodoo2 (Does anyone know the release year for the voodoo2? Friggin ancient!)

Not to mention all the addons, like what's probably my favourite, Unified Artillery.


Armed assault, kinda "halfway to the sequel" (which won't be ofp2, by the way) is supposed to be released later this year. Much prettier, and the viewdistances are WOW in comparison to ofp.

So LW, consider getting OFP now and let ArmA be the one on the when-I-get-a-new-computer wishlist. :yep:

[Bellman]

Oh my what big teeth you have ! :rotfl:
And so quick to flash 'em...:o So for you 'flashers' ;) :-

LW - ''My world stops at the doorstep of the consoles.'' as has been said - fact Flashpoint was** a PC game. :lol:
OS - '' Flashpoint....certainly didn't go as far or at least did it that well.'' I said ''ahead of competition **at the time.'' :doh:
''A few years ago.'' is the operative phrase - not surprising several other games have surpassed it. :dead:
C'mon guys lets have some accurate fire - shucks if you're that wide of the mark in the game....... :huh: ;)

I'm looking to move from Steel Beasts Gold to Pro but am unlikely to desert Harpoon SP for the delights of
the newish MP. Lifes too short !!

[OKO]

OKO those comments don't even make sense.

you right, I apologize for this very agressive message.
I should have been in a very bad moment when I wrote that

I read so many times this kind of comments, I lost my selfcontrol
I shouldn't had to :nope:
sorry dude ..... :-?

[Deathblow]

OKO those comments don't even make sense.

you right, I apologize for this very agressive message.
I should have been in a very bad moment when I wrote that

I read so many times this kind of comments, I lost my selfcontrol
I shouldn't had to :nope:
sorry dude .....

Actually I've been meaning to recant most of the gripes I had above. That type of negativity is never good and in the end isn't helpful at all.

The fact is... DW is a great game and SCS did a great job. :up: And when a player buys a game they get what they buy and anything more is a bonus... so SCS has lived up to much more than there obligation, that's for sure. :yep:

Its also rare for a company with such deep RL expertise to use that in a game... its doubtful that any purely game developer would bother to create such a complex sound model... or even have the expertise to do so. SCS does and did.

... :hmm: ...

Maybe what I'm really dissappointed about is the lack of freedom to mod that so many modern game manufacturers grant, hasn't been granted here. Sure theirs no obligation to do so, but... almost every major game I can think of put out today is granting those priviledges to its fan-based because they know it usually results in good for the games image, their developer reputation, and boost game-appeal. Heck if HalfLife2 hadn't been generous with their engine CounterStrike would have never been developed and the most popular, record breaking online game in history would have never been developed... and what a missed opprotunity would that have been.

The truth is, I believe that DW could possess the ability to become a modern naval sim ultimate... but I really doubt that SCS has the time and resources to take it to its end potential, nothing against their stellar abilities, but instead due to the fact that as a game developer, their time, budgets, and time-investment vs profit returns will neccesitate their end product... and it will take the efforts of the internet community (a powerfully creative force when fully unleashed) contributing upgrades (like LW and A and JSteed, etc) to slowly develope DW to its true max... we're never been closer to the opprotunity to develope "the perfect naval sim", but it won't get their with most of the game files on lock down.

So the clamps that SCS has put on modding feels a little like... :hmm: ... like walking into a packed movie theater for a movie about to start, seeing one seat left open in the whole theater, walking up to the seat and when your finally there the person next to the seat balks "No you can't sit there... I'm going to save that seat for someone that's not here yet!" :hulk: *grrrrrrrrrrrrr*

So... I understand that SCS is trying to maintain its profit potential, and that somewhere, someone higher up has probably said that open source modding can't be allowed because it will hurt them eventually... but I disagree. I think that it will actually help them and make this game even more popular with a more loyal fan-base, and a great fan rapport. When SCS thinks of "future projects" it should not be concentrating on rehashing the DW engine with new systems into a game to sell as its next game "selling point" (selling its next game as the DW engine but with Burke as a controllable unit for example), but instead should be concentrating on producing engine upgrades to the object physics... water physics...radar physics...weather physics...damage physics... and not to mention graphics for future additions to its development repetoire (with each successive game being better and more realistic than the last)

That's just how I feel in the matter. Is it a more daunting task? Probably...and maybe SCS feels that way too underneath, but can't act on it because it runs into the same budget/development constraits all over again, with construction of new engines every few years beyond their profit making limits...but one can only hope.

[OneShot]

Yep, SCS is pretty restrictive about modding their game, but the reason for that lies in their business modell which is quite different than most of the other game developers. They not only produce a game for the regular market but they sell their stuff to the military (which is probably pretty pricey for the military). Granted the stuff the military gets is a bit different (mostly the DB I would say), but thats their main customer. Now if they would be like Valve and give out their SDK and tell us "Feel free to mod everything", the military would certainly grab the SDK as well, put some of their own talent to use and SCS would loose a lot of money.

So, while I personally would appreciate having their SDK available to us and the OK to mod everything to our liking, I can understand their reasoning and live with it.

[Deathblow]

the military would certainly grab the SDK as well, put some of their own talent to use and SCS would loose a lot of money.

yes, assuming this is true... but personally, I doubt they make that much money rehashing a same old engine over and over again even if its military.

[LuftWolf]

That's the big misconception that SCS has failed to dispell... DW is not simply a rehasing of the SC engine.

It is important to realize just how big a deal it is that DW has two features not seen in any other game: 1) multiple platform types sharing a complex battlespace environment equally 2) multistation capability.

I guess DW is either 8 years too late or some years ahead of its time. :hmm:

Cheers,
David

[goldorak]

I guess DW is either 8 years too late or some years ahead of its time. :hmm:

Cheers,
David

Its both :-j
Graphicwise its 8 years too old, on the other hand gameplaywise its 8 years ahead of its time.

[LuftWolf]

Good point. :up:

Cheers,
David

[Deathblow]

8 years ahead of its time?....errr..... no not really. :nope: But it is a great idea and one that no one has done, curiously.

For a sim to be 8 years ahead of its time it needs 2 things.
1. The most outstanding physics model ever not just sonar physics, but realistic wave effects, object physics, weather, radar performance, etc.)
2. The most sophificated AI behavior possible. And DW doesn't come anywhere near sophificated regarding its AI. Only very basic behavioral algorithms. Heck, current standards in AI programming in modern gaming have produced some of the most unpredictable, practical AI behavior ever seen.

[LuftWolf]

Well, that's if those are the only parameters by which you'd judge a piece of software... of course, if you define progress by certain terms, and then say that if something had those features it would be a sign of progress, it is no marvel that this is the conclusion drawn from such a reasoning process.

[Deathblow]

Yep, those are the criteria that matter most anyway :yep: . If you compare any game from 1996 to any game (of the same genre) in 2006, there are 4-5 major areas of advancement that make a later model game the "better" game.

1. Graphics (an obvious choice). Though not as important here as in other games. (do to the fact that the majority of gameplay is conducted via information consoles).
2. Artificial Intelligence. AIs have come leaps and bounds in terms of their sophistication, with advanced games showing trully life-like decision making from its AI opponents and proponents. This is demostrated most openly in the the RTS and FPS genere, but can be applied to games of all generes (from cardgames to racing to anything else).
3. Physics Modelling. The name of the game is reality. Getting those objects to bounce, turn, stop, roll, fly just like they really would in RL. The more accurate the physics the better. Again this is most demonstrated in twitch games like flight simulators and racing, in which physics takes priority in the gameplay, but again applies to all games as a upgrade in performance.
4. Online interconnectivity. Self-explanitory.
5. New hardware technology insertion/utilization. The use of the mouse comes to mind as a jump in game advancements (though probably not fully appreciated)... the original use of the internets is probably the biggest hardware utilization jump in recent gaming history. Something that may come out in the next year that will be a great example is the Wei controller... heck, I still haven't figured out how my old Nintendo Gun works!:lol: ... dw's use of Voice recoginition falls under this category.

So, yes I agree that DW's use of multistation online play is very forward thinking in the spirit of #4. Also, its utilization of voice recognition software is also very advanced (#5), and not something other game developers have taken full advantage of. Its physics modelling is sophisticated in the fact that its probably the most advanced sonar propogation model in existence (one of the games cornerstones in development and a lenchpin to its excellence):yep: :rock: :up: , along with a reasonable radar model (i'm reversing my stance from previously, the radar model is pretty good when looked at more closely). But a lot of the aspects of a fairly "advanced" game have been passed over: the AI could be better, other aspects of the physics model (for example, in a naval game, realistics wave mechanics would be a real sign of game advancement) could be better, and its nice to see efforts of SCS in improving them (with the physics efforts of the last patch and ongoing work... which still need a lot of improvement).

All and all, I would say that the whole naval sim genre has actually fallen behind in terms of programming, with no game really approaching the sophifications widely known to be possible, but that's just IMHO. Though I may have a slightly different view from sole-simulator gamers as my gaming interest pans across several genres (racing, fighting, fps, rts) in addition to simulations.

[RedChico]

8 years ahead of its time?....errr..... no not really. :nope: But it is a great idea and one that no one has done, curiously.

For a sim to be 8 years ahead of its time it needs 2 things.
1. The most outstanding physics model ever not just sonar physics, but realistic wave effects, object physics, weather, radar performance, etc.)
2. The most sophificated AI behavior possible. And DW doesn't come anywhere near sophificated regarding its AI. Only very basic behavioral algorithms. Heck, current standards in AI programming in modern gaming have produced some of the most unpredictable, practical AI behavior ever seen.

Grand Prix Legends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111one one unno um dois três quatro