Greywolves TOO hard!!

[SubSerpent]

Overall I still love this mod of the game, but I do have some complaints that I hope will be fixed in future releases.


First, the sounds need a bit of tweaking. It appears some of them are either too loud or too soft or unhearable altogether.


Second, the damaged modeling is WAY TOO hard! I am saying this because it took an entire stock of torpedos to even scratch a 'large cargo' ship (What are we launching here? Nerf Torpedos?). I then went back to port resupplied and found a 'tramp steamer' on my next patrol. It took 4 torps to catch her on fire. And 3 more to get her to sink which took forever for her to do in deep water. She just bobbed up and down for almost 2 days before going under.


So, I exited my game and tweaked the torp setting power from MinEF 120 to MinEF 900 and MaxEF 180 to MaxEF 1000 for each torpedo type. So theoretically 1 torpedo now had the power of 9-10 torpedos.

So, I went back into the game and found yet another 'large cargo' and still it took 3 torps to bring her down and 2 torps to bring down another 'tramp steamer' I came across using the new torpedo settings that I implemented that should have the damage power of 9-10 torpedos. Which means these ships are way too industructable. Doing the math that means that it would have takin 27-30 torpedos to get the 'large cargo' to sink on default settings in Greywolves mod, and roughly 18-20 torpedos for the 'tramp steamer'

[Der Teddy Bar]

Overall I still love this mod of the game, but I do have some complaints that I hope will be fixed in future releases.


First, the sounds need a bit of tweaking. It appears some of them are either too loud or too soft or unhearable altogether.


Second, the damaged modeling is WAY TOO hard! I am saying this because it took an entire stock of torpedos to even scratch a 'large cargo' ship (What are we launching here? Nerf Torpedos?). I then went back to port resupplied and found a 'tramp steamer' on my next patrol. It took 4 torps to catch her on fire. And 3 more to get her to sink which took forever for her to do in deep water. She just bobbed up and down for almost 2 days before going under.


So, I exited my game and tweaked the torp setting power from MinEF 120 to MinEF 900 and MaxEF 180 to MaxEF 1000 for each torpedo type. So theoretically 1 torpedo now had the power of 9-10 torpedos.

So, I went back into the game and found yet another 'large cargo' and still it took 3 torps to bring her down and 2 torps to bring down another 'tramp steamer' I came across using the new torpedo settings that I implemented that should have the damage power of 9-10 torpedos. Which means these ships are way too industructable. Doing the math that means that it would have takin 27-30 torpedos to get the 'large cargo' to sink on default settings in Greywolves mod, and roughly 18-20 torpedos for the 'tramp steamer'
That is because the ships sink. There is so much stuff on the forums about the NYGM Ship Damage Mod that there really is no excuse for being unable to sink a ship.

I can sink a tramp steamer with 1 torpedo and on a bad day 2.

On a good day a Liberty ship is 2 torpedoes and on a bad it is 4 and on a shocker 5. But mostly 3.


While the NYGM Ship Damage Mod is not perfect, it is you that is the issue. It works, it works well, it is not perfect, but it works. It is simply you.

I have clearly detailed how the SHIII damage works and how the NYGM Ship Damage Mod works down to the minutest degree.

If you have missed the obvious threads, here they are again...
NYGM and GW - Ship Damage FAQ
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=50331

Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Beta 0.1.36
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47519&highlight=nygm

[AceChilla]

Yeah I got the same problem. I had 2 C2's at the brink of sinking 500 meters from eachother.

I both hitted them with 2 torps. Then when they wouldn't sink I plugged one more in both.

But still after waiting for 2 days looking at these boats floating on the surface, they were still alive. I decided too leave came back a week later they where both gone and I never got the reknown.

I don't like the new damage model.

[Dowly]

Next time, try to aim your torpedos to the different compartments of you target. Helps flooding the ship. :up:

The rate of flooding doesnt increase even if you launch 20 billion torpedos to the exact same spot. :-j

[Dowly]

Yeah I got the same problem. I had 2 C2's at the brink of sinking 500 meters from eachother.

I both hitted them with 2 torps. Then when they wouldn't sink I plugged one more in both.

But still after waiting for 2 days looking at these boats floating on the surface, they were still alive. I decided too leave came back a week later they where both gone and I never got the reknown.

I don't like the new damage model.

Someone correct me if I´m wrong.

You said that you left the area? How far did you go? Not sure about NYGM, but in the stock game you would have to be near the ship when it sinks to get the renown.

Oh and Teddy, I love your NYGM damage mod! :rock:

[VonHelsching]

Subserpent,

The NYGM Ship Damage model used in GW is a completely new concept regarding the ship damage and it seems that a lot of time has been invested in this. I have made some small mods/fixes myself and I can hardly size the effort required for this. Only to test this thing, ship by ship, it would require weeks.

The ships cannot be sunk anymore from hit points (HP), unless you fire them 20 torpedos. Now they sink. And sometimes they take a long time to sink. The deck gun can be used now only for shot under the waterline, in order to sink faster. Firing at the decks or cargo has now become useless, because all the ships now have many HPs. You see, in order to fix realism in the sinking side, you have to ruin realism in the DG side (i.e imagine what would happen in RL if a couple of 88s or even better 105s HE shells landed on the captain's deck)


Anyway, the NYGM Damage system is still "draft", so my guess is that we are expecting a lot of interesting stuff in the forthcoming version 2.

I am also very troubled about this, like you. I went into Dover for a harbour raid in 1939 with my IID and fired 3 torpedos on a Fiji. One impact and two magnetic, in different compartments. It just sank about ~1 meter and it stopped there for many hours; didn' touch the seafloor.

I am still going to give this mod a try, but if this becomes the majority of the cases (ie 3 torpedos and waiting for many hours) I might revert to stock damage system and wait for version 2.

[Konovalov]

I don't like the new damage model.

Simply uninstall and try something else. There are so many mods out there to suit everyones tastes.

I for one have not tried out the NYGM mod yet. I did however print out the massive PDF document about it and have read parts of it. Perhaps if you read this you would get a better understanding of it and how it works and most importantly how you can get the best out if it.

[AceChilla]

Someone correct me if I´m wrong.

You said that you left the area? How far did you go? Not sure about NYGM, but in the stock game you would have to be near the ship when it sinks to get the renown.

Oh and Teddy, I love your NYGM damage mod! :rock:

Yeah I left after waiting for 2 days. I shot them down south of Ireland (the convoy spot). Went to patrol at my square south of Reykjavik, and on the way back I went to the same spot they once where, they were gone.

They must have sunk, I can't imagine them fixing themselves up after floating around for 2 days with heavy flooding. Could that be realistic?

BTW. I also shot about 75 round of my deckgun in both. But I didn't know then that causing fires doesn't do anything to help the sinking. Most of the rounds I didn't shoot at the waterline, maybe if I'd have done that it would have helped.

Next time, try to aim your torpedos to the different compartments of you target. Helps flooding the ship. :up:

The rate of flooding doesnt increase even if you launch 20 billion torpedos to the exact same spot. :-j

I didn't know this either ;)

I guess maybe if I get a better understanding of the mechanics it won't be a problem anymore.

[kiwi_2005]

SubSerpent Wrote
What are we launching here? Nerf Torpedos?

:rotfl: :rotfl:

I haven't even tried GW yet, From what i read i might wait for the updates/patches to come out.

[cmdrk]

I have not tried or read much about NYGM or GW, but by this thread I might not.

It sounds like 3 torpedoes in one compartment doesn't do any more damage than 1 and that gun rounds above the waterline are just pyrotechnics.

Is this right? I'm not saying stock damage modelling is great, but the above seems a bit on the opposite extreme.

As a side thought, if a second depth charge hits the sub in the same compartment is more damage done?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I am SOOOOOO going to post here after I get a bit of sleep.

[CWorth]

I am SOOOOOO going to post here after I get a bit of sleep.

You would think that with all the NYGM posts around here people would understand by now..
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=50331

[Dowly]

What´s all this fuzz about!?

I have had no problems with NYGM nor GW regarding the ship sinking.

Can you really say that a 88mm shell to the deck structures of the ship should sink it? :o

[AceChilla]

Mind you guys, Im not critisizing Grew Wolves or the NYGM mod. I think both are great I wouldn't go back to the stock SH3 ever. And you guys did a great job making them.

Im just saying I agree the damage model kinda irritates me sometimes. I should have taken a screenshot of those 2 c2's just floating there with heavy flooding for 2 days. With me just floating next to them not knowing how to sink either of them, you would have understood :rotfl:

But maybe I don't understand the mechanics well enough. For instance I did shoot the torpedo's at the same place on the ship, Right in the engine room where I always put them. Maybe if I wouldn't have done that it would have been OK.

And people please. Not all people hear read the hunderds of pages of thread about all the mods coming out. My head is spinning sometimes thinking which mod does what and what are the precise effects. You can't expect everyone to know how the stuff in mods work exactly, even if most of the die-hards know it by heart.

Thats why I love Grey Wolves so much, because it's all the goodies into one!

[Kilamon]

I first noticed the indicator for fuel compartment, keel and etc last night while hunting and used them pretty effectively, but I had a quest about what conditions allows the compartments to show. I didn't see them pop up til I was about 880 meters away and a 60-120 AOB but I can't quntify that as exact since my speed seemed to be an indicator as well in addition to who know what else (I saw the compartment indicator vanish a couple times while targeting). Would someone clarify this?

[CWorth]

I personally have no problems sinking ships..

These are my findings and results with the NYGM mod that is in Grey Wolves after playing quite a few patrols and testing...

Small Merchants= 1-2 torpedoes
Medium Merchants= 1-3 torpedoes
Large Merchants= 2-4 torpedoes

Destroyers= 1-2 torpedoes
Cruisers= 2-3 torpedoes
Battleships and Carriers= 3-5 torpedoes

All the above are +/- 1 or 2 torpedoes depending on circumstances and if I aimed well or not and had no duds.

Deck gun I really can't say as I don't use it very frequently.

I first noticed the indicator for fuel compartment, keel and etc last night while hunting and used them pretty effectively, but I had a quest about what conditions allows the compartments to show. I didn't see them pop up til I was about 880 meters away and a 60-120 AOB but I can't quntify that as exact since my speed seemed to be an indicator as well in addition to who know what else (I saw the compartment indicator vanish a couple times while targeting). Would someone clarify this?

The indicators show up once you are inside 1000m of the ship.

As for angle I only have them show up at or very near 90º AOB.

[bsalyers]

I agree with the opinion stated elsewhere here that the problem is not the damage model but the attacks. My first torpedo attack after installing GW was a good deal more successful than my first attacks in the unmodded game when I was a n00b; I hit a tramp steamer with a single torpedo at close range and she burst into flames and sank in about 2 minutes. More recently, I attacked two medium cargo ships in the Channel with the following results: three eels launched at each, in both cases, one either missed or failed to detonate. In both cases, the remaining two torpedoes were sufficient to sink the ships. In both cases, the sinkings took time - probably an hour or more.

Hit-point damage models for vessels is ridiculous - utterly unrealistic. The NYGM/GW sinking model is much more true-to-life. Naturally, this is more challenging.

This debate reminds me of when I was new to the game and never adjusted the depth of my torpedoes. While my aim was true, it was not unusual for me to see a ship glide merrily away with a hole bobbing up-and-down out of the water, too high on her keel to pose any real problem.
With the more realistic damage model, more skill is required to sink your targets.

[Dutch]

I have nothing but praise for the new damage mod! :up:

Its about time the ships actually sank instead of ran out of hlt, not I don't know if I should wait or put another in them or maybe put some shells in them :up:

Keep in mind flooding more than one compart is usally needed to sink most ships large than small. I usally fire a salvo of 2 torps around 5 degrees differance and get results in around 5 mins of damage, usually consiting of listing or dead in water.

Then new mod as far as I have seen has no problems what so ever except for fps :-j but thats my end not theres :D :cry: :shifty:

Thanks again guys for the great mods! :up:

[coronas]

I personally have no problems sinking ships..

These are my findings and results with the NYGM mod that is in Grey Wolves after playing quite a few patrols and testing...

Small Merchants= 1-2 torpedoes
Medium Merchants= 1-3 torpedoes
Large Merchants= 2-4 torpedoes

Destroyers= 1-2 torpedoes
Cruisers= 2-3 torpedoes
Battleships and Carriers= 3-5 torpedoes

All the above are +/- 1 or 2 torpedoes depending on circumstances and if I aimed well or not and had no duds.
.

I agree this.
I'm use the UC from Rubini. Two torpedoes, impact pistol usually, 4 and 6 meters depth for large merchants and it's enought. Eventually, gun fire help. The last medium steamer took two fishes and 37 shoots and sunk after 45 min.

[Heibges]

I personally have no problems sinking ships..

These are my findings and results with the NYGM mod that is in Grey Wolves after playing quite a few patrols and testing...

Small Merchants= 1-2 torpedoes
Medium Merchants= 1-3 torpedoes
Large Merchants= 2-4 torpedoes

Destroyers= 1-2 torpedoes
Cruisers= 2-3 torpedoes
Battleships and Carriers= 3-5 torpedoes

All the above are +/- 1 or 2 torpedoes depending on circumstances and if I aimed well or not and had no duds.
.

I agree this.
I'm use the UC from Rubini. Two torpedoes, impact pistol usually, 4 and 6 meters depth for large merchants and it's enought. Eventually, gun fire help. The last medium steamer took two fishes and 37 shoots and sunk after 45 min.

I use that same torpedo allocation with the stock game regardless of hit points. Those numbers are about how many torps the Uboat Commanders Handbook says to use per that type of target. This definitely will improve realism for folks used to using 1 torpedo per ship in the past.

Now if you do most of your patrolling on the surface, you will have careers that look like those on Uboat.net

[JonZ]

I personnaly think that it is overhauled a bit. Even aiming at different compartments have no effects. like yesterday made some run into scapaflow and fired 10 torpedoes (with impact and magnet) on a immobile Revenge and she never went down. Which is completely irrealistic IMHO. Small ships should take less than 3 torpedoes and more like one torpedos more than often, they weren't that strong. A torpedo should be able to take out more than one compartments. Not always ONE.

[Heibges]

10 Torpedoes to sink a Battleship is not unrealistic.

[JonZ]

10 Torpedoes to sink a Battleship is not unrealistic.

It should at least nudge or something. And immobile should make it easier to sink, but I guess it not the case.

And I recall it took like only 3 to sink the Barham and the Courageous.

[Dowly]

Isnt the docked ships bugged? Sometimes you wont get renown from them etc. ?

[Keelbuster]

I've said it before and I still think so: NYGM damage is wicked. It's totally changed the game for me; more interesting, more intense, and more realistic. Thank god for long, uncertain sinking times. Damage seems so much more variable now. And I don't need to use a ridiculous number of torpedoes to get the job done. Often 1 is enough, if it is a good hit. But, on cargos, 2 or 3 is fine, with duds etc. I spent 6 on a battleship once. That's cool though - they're big bastards and you really have to hammer them - after all, it was utterly crippled after 3.

The only issue I have is with the deck gun. On several occasions I've torpedoed a small merchant to cause it to list. I'll then surface, and attack w/deck gun. After 50 shells below waterline at various compartments including the one I already hit, it has a bad list and is on fire. After 75-100 it sinks. Is this realistic? I feel like a small merchant should be swiss cheese after 30 or so.

Kb.

[Der Teddy Bar]

I personnaly think that it is overhauled a bit. Even aiming at different compartments have no effects. like yesterday made some run into scapaflow and fired 10 torpedoes (with impact and magnet) on a immobile Revenge and she never went down. Which is completely irrealistic IMHO. Small ships should take less than 3 torpedoes and more like one torpedos more than often, they weren't that strong. A torpedo should be able to take out more than one compartments. Not always ONE.
I have never had that occur, EVER.

[Der Teddy Bar]

The only issue I have is with the deck gun. On several occasions I've torpedoed a small merchant to cause it to list. I'll then surface, and attack w/deck gun. After 50 shells below waterline at various compartments including the one I already hit, it has a bad list and is on fire. After 75-100 it sinks. Is this realistic? I feel like a small merchant should be swiss cheese after 30 or so.

Kb.
In testing of the NYGM Ship Damage Mod V 2 I had noticed disparities between the 88mm & the 105mm when sinking ships. I believe that we have the 88mm issue resolved and it is being tested internally and will go to external beta testing next week.

[Keelbuster]

Schweet!

[Dutch]

I have yet to en****er an unsinable ship with the damage mod. I have noticed that the sink times are greatly increased. I usually look for signs of flooding around 10 mins or so and if nothing I'll either put another torp in her or surface and put a few rounds under the waterline along the whole side of the ship. Usually after around 10-20 shells I'll wait and the ship usually flounders within 30min-1hr.

Of course if I get a critical hit the ship sinks within 5-10min.

[VonHelsching]

What´s all this fuzz about!?

I have had no problems with NYGM nor GW regarding the ship sinking.

Can you really say that a 88mm shell to the deck structures of the ship should sink it? :o

Of course not. But even a 88mm shell in the bridge would make the ship loose coordination, slow down, make circles etc. But this was not modelled in the vanilla game anyway... :down:

[Enfilade]

I'm a big fan of the NYGM Tonnage ship damage model. Even though it makes me grit my teeth when those ships refuse to sink quickly! That, after all, is the point of the model. I'm sure things will be tweaked but I like the extra challenge and uncertainty provided by the mod... especially combined with 100% realism settings. If you follow the extensive manual's tips on the best aiming points for torpedoes and deck gun, you will have much better luck. That said, you still might have to wait hours or even days in some cases for a ship to go down. Much better than a guaranteed 'arcade style' parade of ships that just go boom imho. NYGM's crew management system too (tonnage-morale based) is a vast improvement over other models that I've used.

[SubSerpent]

I'm glad some of you like the damage mod part of GW, but I still think it is unrealistic for a U-boat to have to launch more than 3 of anything at any class of ship for it to sink.

It seems like it should be more like this give or take a torp.

1 torp for small cargo
2 torp for medium
3 torp for large cargo.

1 torp for destroyer
certainly 1 torp for an armed trawler
1 for a cruiser, 2-3 for BBs and CVs.



Right now it's like this...


5-8 for armed trawler? WTF!?!
10+ for anything else? WTF!?!
God knows how many it takes for a fishing vessel to go down!?!

Go home empty handed to BdU and let them know you launched everything at the enemy and yet still not even a mere enemy fishing vessel would sink.

It makes finding a convoy worthless since you won't get anything out of it!


I don't understand how 10 torps in one area of a ship is not going to do anymore damage? It seems to me that 10 torps would cut a ship in half if they all hit the same spot. 2 torps would cut most ships in half if they hit the same spot. So this damage moddelling is way out of whack. It's like a luck game now even though most U-baot Captain knew roughly how many torps it would take to bring a specific vessel down and where to hit them at.

It's like tring to sink ships with nerf torpedoes and BBs from the deck mounted pellet gun.:nope:


The damage modding part of the GW's mod gets a BIG thumbs :down: I'm afraid! It ruins the rest of what is such a wonderful thing like a nasty piece of mold on yet such a fresh looking piece of bread. I shall begin tweaking away at the GW mod to better suit my taste since I like the rest of the mod. I don't need indestructable ships. Just that part of the mod makes this game not worth the play! :nope:

[bsalyers]

Right now it's like this...
5-8 for armed trawler? huh?!?!
10+ for anything else? huh?!?!

That has not been my experience at all. It sounds like you are interpreting the posts of those who like the GW damage model to mean something along the lines of "We like it when it takes 10 torpedoes to sink a ship." That's not what we're saying. We're saying it takes 2 or 3 if done correctly.
I am using the GW mod and my experience has been nothing like you described. I am playing on 97% realism (event cam on) and I just sank a large tanker with 2 torpedoes. I launched 3, but the first 2 eels split her in half, so the 3rd was not necessary.
Since many of us enjoy the challenge of the mod, while others feel it is too difficult, perhaps the legitimate conclusion is that it's simply not for everyone, rather than that it should be made easier for those who do not like it.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I personally have no problems sinking ships..

These are my findings and results with the NYGM mod that is in Grey Wolves after playing quite a few patrols and testing...

Small Merchants= 1-2 torpedoes
Medium Merchants= 1-3 torpedoes
Large Merchants= 2-4 torpedoes

Destroyers= 1-2 torpedoes
Cruisers= 2-3 torpedoes
Battleships and Carriers= 3-5 torpedoes

All the above are +/- 1 or 2 torpedoes depending on circumstances and if I aimed well or not and had no duds.

Deck gun I really can't say as I don't use it very frequently.

I first noticed the indicator for fuel compartment, keel and etc last night while hunting and used them pretty effectively, but I had a quest about what conditions allows the compartments to show. I didn't see them pop up til I was about 880 meters away and a 60-120 AOB but I can't quntify that as exact since my speed seemed to be an indicator as well in addition to who know what else (I saw the compartment indicator vanish a couple times while targeting). Would someone clarify this?

The indicators show up once you are inside 1000m of the ship.

As for angle I only have them show up at or very near 90º AOB.

Thanks Mr Salyers. You've hit the nail on the head.

From my favorite part of the NYGM damage model readme (Statement of intentions.) "
Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod
Design goals-
To make ships sink by flooding
To create as far as possible, realistic sinking’s
To create as far as possible, realistic sinking times
To keep the player guessing
To have a non Uber deck gun
How to use the deck gun
To compensate for the torpedo above par attributes."

Attention SubSerpent sir... further information reveals that the results you wish to see for torpedo expenditure vs sinkings IS generally occurring. Please read the above quotation of CWorth.

[finchOU]

not to shift gears...(read threadjack :down: )....but what does the damage model do with respect to ship's speed with flooding? Does flooding slow it down?...or is it a HP value that slows them down??

[Kpt. Lehmann]

not to shift gears...(read threadjack :down: )....but what does the damage model do with respect ship's speed with flooding? Does flooding slow it down?...or is a HP value that slows them down??

Nearly 100% of the time I have noticed an increasing reduction in speed as the ship floods.

Occasionaly I have noticed the screws come out of the water as ships sink/flood by the bow... and never have I witnessed ships continued movement when in this condition.

[panthercules]

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe there's some sort of bug (maybe corrupted download file or something) affecting some people's experience with the NYGM damage mod - these threads begin to sound a lot like some of the tech support threads I always used to see over on the IL-2 forums - a few people would report something bad happening to them, and the majority of folks would post back that there was nothing wrong because they weren't experiencing the problem on their machines.

Personally, I love this mod, and have never experienced any of the problems posted about by some of these poor folks. In the 4 (well, 3 and 1/2) patrols I've made since I loaded up this mod (first with the .36 version, then the .39 version, and now GW), I've sunk about 30 ships. None have been "invincible" or required an inordinate number of torps to sink them - a few have exploded and sunk in a few minutes, the majority have probably sunk within a couple of hours or so, and a small number have needed a third torpedo after several hours of waiting. I've finished off maybe 5 or 6 with my deck gun after hitting them with just one torp, usually averaging about 30-40 shots apiece.

So, like a lot of us, my experience with this thing has been pretty near perfect (though the deck gun seems maybe a tad nerfed - but that's another thread :) ). However, obviously some people here really do seem to be experiencing situations that are just crappy - I know I'd be ticked if it were taking me 10 or more torpedos to sink something. It's too bad the solution for them probably isn't as simple as "update your drivers" or some of the other things that used to solve those tech forum problems over on IL-2, 'cause they're really missing out on something sweet when it works.

[Boris]

I think the NYGM model is not all that bad, and I still like it better than stock... yet every so often I get annoyed at it.
While ships are destroyed from sinking now, I thik it often takes too long and tends to look strange. For example a compartment will flood, but not really sink... you can wait a few hours... and then she goes down really suddenly (this happens sometimes).
Larger cargo ships like c2 and c3s tend to take about 3 hits in different areas... but often I have noticed that they appear to run out of hitpoints at this stage. I don't know if its a critical hit on the third or something, but the upper deck tends to catch fire and i get a ship destroyed message, after which it still takes about 20 mins to go down.
And why shouldn't more torpedoes i one area make a differece? It should at least sink faster...
Just some small gripes... I would like to see the smaller ships sink a little quicker too, small merchants should really only take one most of the time. I hardly ever bother finishing them off with the deck gun as this takes ages.

[Dutch]

I'm glad some of you like the damage mod part of GW, but I still think it is unrealistic for a U-boat to have to launch more than 3 of anything at any class of ship for it to sink.

It seems like it should be more like this give or take a torp.

1 torp for small cargo
2 torp for medium
3 torp for large cargo.

1 torp for destroyer
certainly 1 torp for an armed trawler
1 for a cruiser, 2-3 for BBs and CVs.



Right now it's like this...


5-8 for armed trawler? huh?!?!
10+ for anything else? huh?!?!
God knows how many it takes for a fishing vessel to go down!?!

Go home empty handed to BdU and let them know you launched everything at the enemy and yet still not even a mere enemy fishing vessel would sink.

It makes finding a convoy worthless since you won't get anything out of it!


I don't understand how 10 torps in one area of a ship is not going to do anymore damage? It seems to me that 10 torps would cut a ship in half if they all hit the same spot. 2 torps would cut most ships in half if they hit the same spot. So this damage moddelling is way out of whack. It's like a luck game now even though most U-baot Captain knew roughly how many torps it would take to bring a specific vessel down and where to hit them at.

It's like tring to sink ships with nerf torpedoes and BBs from the deck mounted pellet gun.:nope:


The damage modding part of the GW's mod gets a BIG thumbs :down: I'm afraid! It ruins the rest of what is such a wonderful thing like a nasty piece of mold on yet such a fresh looking piece of bread. I shall begin tweaking away at the GW mod to better suit my taste since I like the rest of the mod. I don't need indestructable ships. Just that part of the mod makes this game not worth the play! :nope:

:huh: :o

5-8 for merchants.....I have never fired more than 2 at any size merchant from Coastal to C2 to C3...never and I've gotten the same results, slow to dead in water hvy listing, I MAY have to on occasion surface and put a few under the water line but thats rare, the ships sink. I don't think your giving them time your used to the sink in 5 mins, thats unrealistic, the only ship I know of that sank in under 5 mins to my knowledge is the Hood, well the Edmond Fitzgerald sank in like 30 secs but thats different.

[THE_MASK]

Regarding the sounds . Go to sound options and put the speech sounds back on zero . I noticed that for some reason speech after installing grey wolves was minus twenty or something like that .

[BigBadVuk]

Hey i started NEw career with GW on 100% no weps assist,no external camera..Just me,my crew and my u-boat.... :up:

in the beggining it was a bit wierd to see behaviour of damaged ships but now when i get used to it ..this is great!..It adds that 1 final point to this game...so badly needed:UNCERTAN things...u can sink DD with 1 hit..and next time u can put 3 fishes and nothing will happen!


GO for it guys...i will never return to stock version of SH3! :rotfl:

[SubSerpent]

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe there's some sort of bug (maybe corrupted download file or something) affecting some people's experience with the NYGM damage mod - these threads begin to sound a lot like some of the tech support threads I always used to see over on the IL-2 forums - a few people would report something bad happening to them, and the majority of folks would post back that there was nothing wrong because they weren't experiencing the problem on their machines.

Personally, I love this mod, and have never experienced any of the problems posted about by some of these poor folks. In the 4 (well, 3 and 1/2) patrols I've made since I loaded up this mod (first with the .36 version, then the .39 version, and now GW), I've sunk about 30 ships. None have been "invincible" or required an inordinate number of torps to sink them - a few have exploded and sunk in a few minutes, the majority have probably sunk within a couple of hours or so, and a small number have needed a third torpedo after several hours of waiting. I've finished off maybe 5 or 6 with my deck gun after hitting them with just one torp, usually averaging about 30-40 shots apiece.

So, like a lot of us, my experience with this thing has been pretty near perfect (though the deck gun seems maybe a tad nerfed - but that's another thread :) ). However, obviously some people here really do seem to be experiencing situations that are just crappy - I know I'd be ticked if it were taking me 10 or more torpedos to sink something. It's too bad the solution for them probably isn't as simple as "update your drivers" or some of the other things that used to solve those tech forum problems over on IL-2, 'cause they're really missing out on something sweet when it works.



I think that you may be on to something there. Perhaps some of the downloaded mods have been altered in some way by some people that want the mod to be extremely impossible or something.

I tried it again last night with my same configuration and still the same thing and this times I used a spread of 4 torps against 1 medium cargo (1 in the bow, 1 just after the bow, 1 just in front of the stern, and 1 at the stern). All hit and still the cargo ship just kept sailing along like it hadn't been hit at all!

My conclusion.

I am not going to spend 2 days downloading GW again. Once was enough and the most of the mod is there. I may have downloaded the GW impossible version or something...

So

I am just going to tweak my version to my taste to be more of what I feel is realistic.

[Montbrun]

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe there's some sort of bug (maybe corrupted download file or something) affecting some people's experience with the NYGM damage mod - these threads begin to sound a lot like some of the tech support threads I always used to see over on the IL-2 forums - a few people would report something bad happening to them, and the majority of folks would post back that there was nothing wrong because they weren't experiencing the problem on their machines.

Personally, I love this mod, and have never experienced any of the problems posted about by some of these poor folks. In the 4 (well, 3 and 1/2) patrols I've made since I loaded up this mod (first with the .36 version, then the .39 version, and now GW), I've sunk about 30 ships. None have been "invincible" or required an inordinate number of torps to sink them - a few have exploded and sunk in a few minutes, the majority have probably sunk within a couple of hours or so, and a small number have needed a third torpedo after several hours of waiting. I've finished off maybe 5 or 6 with my deck gun after hitting them with just one torp, usually averaging about 30-40 shots apiece.

So, like a lot of us, my experience with this thing has been pretty near perfect (though the deck gun seems maybe a tad nerfed - but that's another thread :) ). However, obviously some people here really do seem to be experiencing situations that are just crappy - I know I'd be ticked if it were taking me 10 or more torpedos to sink something. It's too bad the solution for them probably isn't as simple as "update your drivers" or some of the other things that used to solve those tech forum problems over on IL-2, 'cause they're really missing out on something sweet when it works.



I think that you may be on to something there. Perhaps some of the downloaded mods have been altered in some way by some people that want the mod to be extremely impossible or something.

I tried it again last night with my same configuration and still the same thing and this times I used a spread of 4 torps against 1 medium cargo (1 in the bow, 1 just after the bow, 1 just in front of the stern, and 1 at the stern). All hit and still the cargo ship just kept sailing along like it hadn't been hit at all!

My conclusion.

I am not going to spend 2 days downloading GW again. Once was enough and the most of the mod is there. I may have downloaded the GW impossible version or something...

So

I am just going to tweak my version to my taste to be more of what I feel is realistic.

The only strange occurance that I've had is that, after recieving the "Ship Sunk" message, and getting credit, the ship animation itself continues along on it's merry way - the "sinking ship" animation doesn't kick in. I'm wondering if this has something to do with some of these issues.

This has happened (rarely) with GW, NYGM, and the Rubini "combined" GW and NYGM.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

@Subserpent

Another option would be to just download part 4 again by itself and enable it in JGSME. Part four contains all the ship DM's.
Your choice of course.

[Uber Gruber]

I'm happy with NYGM and GW running together, I think the ship damage model is brilliant and very very realistic. I have never yet had to fire more than 3 Ts into a ship to get it to sink.

However, I do have one issue. Sometimes, to finish off a ship and to save Torpedos, I surface, catch some fish and throw them at it. I've noticed that it can take up to a million fish to sink a boat, yet othertimes I can sink it with a a couple of well placed Tuna or a particularly nasty smelling Mackeral.

Is this normal ? From what I've read about U-Boats, it should be possible to sink a ship with 10 Cod say, and half a dozen pieces of Halibut. Perhapps a little attention to realism is needed here.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I'm happy with NYGM and GW running together, I think the ship damage model is brilliant and very very realistic. I have never yet had to fire more than 3 Ts into a ship to get it to sink.

However, I do have one issue. Sometimes, to finish off a ship and to save Torpedos, I surface, catch some fish and throw them at it. I've noticed that it can take up to a million fish to sink a boat, yet othertimes I can sink it with a a couple of well placed Tuna or a particularly nasty smelling Mackeral.

Is this normal ? From what I've read about U-Boats, it should be possible to sink a ship with 10 Cod say, and half a dozen pieces of Halibut. Perhapps a little attention to realism is needed here.

One swordfish or a few rounds from the jellyfish cannon should do every time. :-j

[Dowly]

:rotfl: :rotfl:

[Catfish]

Hello,

first thanks to the new mods, SH3 looks much more like the real thing.

Don't know whether that's NYGM or GW related - since i just installed it, and have not much experience with the new mods (running GW and NYGM, with the merged campaign here) i just had an encounter with some destroyers in Scapa.

I managed to get by the sunken ships (great!) through Holms sound into Scapa Flow, and intended to wait and look around, cruising at 2 knots and periscope depth, silent running, periscope down. When i come near a stopped destroyer (near as some 1500 m) suddenly all hell brakes loose. This very destroyer comes right at me, drops 4 DCs, and that's it. Additionally all other destroyers are heading directly to my position. Having so much leaks the boat is sunk in a minute. Well, what did i expect entering Scapa Flow lol.

But: According to this a stopped destroyer can get its boilers under pressure in less than 10 seconds, its hydrophone station is manned when it is anchored in a harbour, and it is able to get an exact position on an unsuspected U-boat at 1500 m distance immediately, speed, course and depth known. Since a boat at PD is not easily detected i wonder what's happening here sim-wise ? I mean it is still september 1939 - what kind of detection systems do those destroyers have ?! When i think of Oesten and his statement that "it was much easier in reality" i begin to understand ...
Making a sim more real in a way should not incorporate making things unnecessarily hard - this is not "realistic" either.

Are all those destroyer sonar and hydrophone fixes i remember from a year ago not implemented in the GW or NYGM mods?

Greetings,
Catfish

[Stev1]

Same here, l can't even sink a Cargo ship with a Full load of Torpedoes and a full load of Ammo from the Deck Gun.

[bsalyers]

The problem with sinkings sounds an awful lot like what happens when you hit a ship too high on her water line. When I first started playing the stock game, it happened to me all the time. I know it's still possible to break a ship's back in GW if you hit her right; I've done it.
I don't think we have enough info yet to conclude that people are getting corrupt downloads or different versions. It would be very helpful if someone who is having trouble ran some tests at lowered realism with external view and event camera on, dud torpedoes off, to see exactly what is happening.
Also, in GW, BdU sends out radio messages in '39 describing flaws with the torpedoes and instructing kapitans to turn magnetic pistols off and aim high (love that realism). Is this actually modelled in the game, Kpt. Lehmann? If so, it would explain a lot of difficulties.
I'd sure like to see this mystery solved.
:hmm:

[tycho102]

Some cargo ships were notoriously difficult to sink, in a large part due to the actual kind of cargo they were carrying.

Warships are difficult because they are so compartmentalized. However, their current "material condition" should also come into play, and I seriously doubt Ubisoft modeled that into the game. Two torpedoes into a "yoke" will flood a lot more space than two into a "zebra". Contrary to popular belief, even in times of war, a warship does not cruise around at zebra. A modified zebra, sometimes, but the beer must flow and closed doors slow the flow.

Putting two torpedoes into the same area should do a lot more flooding than two in seperate areas, depending of course on the actual compartment you're breeching. That outer hull is very thick, and if you can slip a torp past it, you've got a much better chance of cutting into vital piping and ballasting. But this isn't modeled, either.




Other than that, everyone needs to remember that with mechanical detonators (impact dets), you need perpendicular hits. This is completely modeled, although it might not be modeled all that great. You've got a cone of about 35 degrees, and outside that, the pin doesn't stike hard enough.

If your torps aren't going off, you are hitting the boat too low -- where the hull is so curved, you cannot get a flat hit with a torpedo -- or you aren't perpendicular with it's heading. If the draft is 9.5m, don't shoot below 6m on impactors. If the draft is 3.5m, don't shoot below 2m. (basically, 60% of it's draft)

[bigboywooly]

i found the grey wolves mod really cool - the layout of the gui was clean and crisp and had no problem sinking ships however found that had too much lag and screen freeze which i never got in stock game so have gone back to stock with a few tweaks - pity tho twas cool

[donut]

I must agree with SubSerpent,encounter with Tramp Steamer 2,000 tons:first,no smoke! Steamers smoke.Three torp.impacts,one in the sweet spot,she did not sink.Surfaced,220 rounds from deck gun,lots of flames,she did not sink,dead in water.Rammed her,she sank! No credit in kapt.log,no ship sunk icon.If this is GW.mod,to tough! Suggestion:Ship Distroyed.Message,if deralict refuses to sink,with credit. Deck Gun is useless.IMHO.GW.needs a patch. :hulk:

[bsalyers]

- encounter with Tramp Steamer 2,000 tons:first,no smoke! Steamers smoke

This is interesting and adds support to the theory that people have different/corrupt versions of GW; every steamer I've seen has been smoking up a storm.

[Dowly]

- encounter with Tramp Steamer 2,000 tons:first,no smoke! Steamers smoke

This is interesting and adds support to the theory that people have different/corrupt versions of GW; every steamer I've seen has been smoking up a storm.

Same here.

[ref]

i found the grey wolves mod really cool - the layout of the gui was clean and crisp and had no problem sinking ships however found that had too much lag and screen freeze which i never got in stock game so have gone back to stock with a few tweaks - pity tho twas cool
Have you tried using the stock sea floor mod ?, in my case it restore the fps almost to the unmoded game rate.

Ref

[Der Teddy Bar]

Putting two torpedoes into the same area should do a lot more flooding than two in seperate areas, depending of course on the actual compartment you're breeching. That outer hull is very thick, and if you can slip a torp past it, you've got a much better chance of cutting into vital piping and ballasting. But this isn't modeled, either.
A torpedo is non penetrating, that is, it is like using high explosive. It is not like using an Armour Piercing round.

As we all know, HE was used for the bridge area etc and AP for the water line… If exploding against the object was so effective then AP rounds would not exist in the navy.

Two torpedoes into the same area will cause some additional damage and certainly increase the speed of flooding. BUT, it is not to be presumed that it will cause any additional flooding and it is almost a guarantee that it will not cause anywhere near the same loss buoyancy as targeting a different area.

[bsalyers]

Have you tried using the stock sea floor mod ?, in my case it restore the fps almost to the unmoded game rate.

Maybe I'll try this, too. My game runs pretty well, but there is some stuttering. Is the high-res sea floor rendered every time you play, even if it's not being displayed?

[Der Teddy Bar]

When a miss looks like a hit. From the read me.

Angle of impact
The third issue was that though the impact pistol was designed to detonate at an angle of 21º. It was found to often, but not always fail at an angle equal to and less than 50º due to the 180º design that had a high chance of jamming. This issue was not fixed until the end of 1942 after the Germans copied the British design of the torpedos from the captured British submarine, HMS Seal.

This is well represented in Silent Hunter III.

What happens in game is that the torpedo bounces off the curved hull and sinks down detonating at depth, this give the appearance of ‘hitting’ the ship as the water detonation is beside the ship. But of course the torpedo has exploded at a great depth.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I must agree with SubSerpent,encounter with Tramp Steamer 2,000 tons:first,no smoke! Steamers smoke.Three torp.impacts,one in the sweet spot,she did not sink.Surfaced,220 rounds from deck gun,lots of flames,she did not sink,dead in water.Rammed her,she sank! No credit in kapt.log,no ship sunk icon.If this is GW.mod,to tough! Suggestion:Ship Distroyed.Message,if deralict refuses to sink,with credit. Deck Gun is useless.IMHO.GW.needs a patch.

Read this Donut... Read all of it.
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=50331&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Furthermore, the deck gun is not useless. To use the Deck Gun in GW properly, you must aim below the waterline.

Remember too that opinions are not bugs.

If you feel that things are not working as planned, you may have a bad download.

There are two other things that you can do too...

Before running GW... as stated in the readme, delete the "SH3" folder in C:/My Documents. GW requires a new SH3 folder to be generated by the simulator to function properly.

If you feel you have a bad download... you do not need to re-download the entire mod. Just re-download part four and enable it in JGSME.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Have you tried using the stock sea floor mod ?, in my case it restore the fps almost to the unmoded game rate.

Maybe I'll try this, too. My game runs pretty well, but there is some stuttering. Is the high-res sea floor rendered every time you play, even if it's not being displayed?

Roger that, if you are using the GW seafloor (the Tanker IV seafloor mod.) It is rendered every time you play, just as the stock seafloor was in stock SH3.

In your GW optional mods folder you can find the "Stock Seafloor" mod. Just copy it to the JGSME mods folder and enable it. Doing this one little thing appears to have helped quite a few people suffering from bad framerates.

In our upcoming update we are going to do a number of things to help the FPS meter in high density areas as well.

[bsalyers]

In your GW optional mods folder you can find the "Stock Seafloor" mod. Just copy it to the JGSME mods folder and enable it. Doing this one little thing appears to have helped quite a few people suffering from bad framerates.

I'll do that. Great info. Thanks, Kpt. Lehmann.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

As for the rest of the posts on this thread stating that GW is too hard....

99% of it boils down to one of these items below.

Improper installation or corrupt download.

Failure to delete the SH3 folder in C:/My Documents (improper installation again there... read the GW readme.)

Failure to read the NYGM/GW ship damage modelling readme now located/tagged as a sticky thread in the mods workshop.

Opinions (which are not BUGS) regarding the damage model.

[Uber Gruber]

As for the rest of the posts on this thread stating that GW is too hard....

Its cos yer all crap U-Boat Commanders :P

[Herr Karl]

After torpedoing multiple compartments without results, I would conclude that something is somehow corrupted. Bad download or improper installation.

[bsalyers]

Did everyone who is experiencing problems install Grey Wolves over a fresh installation of SHIII? Or did they try to use it on their existing installations?

[Schiffmorder]

I've had no problems sinking stuff, usually on the first try... and why in the world do you waste a torp on a tramp steamer anyway? The problem is either you have a bad file, or you are a bad Kaleun... there is nothing wrong with the damage model.

[andy_311]

Iv'e just started to really enjoy GW after a few hick ups and I too don't have any problems sinking ships, ok I have encountered some c2,c3s that took 2 fish to sink, but I also found some ships I I can take out with 1 fish,I even took out a victory cargo with 1 shot to the bow and she just exploded from bow to stern but it did take her atleast a good 20 mins to go down.

[Sailor Steve]

That outer hull is very thick...
No, it's not. Even the non-armored plates on a battleship are never more than 3/4" thick. I refer you to any of the 'Anatomy of the Ship books, most of which give actual hull-plating layouts.

As we all know, HE was used for the bridge area etc and AP for the water line… If exploding against the object was so effective then AP rounds would not exist in the navy.
Do we all know that? Armor-Piercing rounds are for use against just that-armor. An 88mm HE round is more than capable of penetrating a half-inch hull plate, which is the best any merchant or destroyer is going to have.

Even destroyers at best carried what was called Common, or Semi-Armor-Piercing, mainly because they might have to defend themselves against a light cruiser which might have up to 4" of armor over the machinery and magazines, and also might have do do shore bombardment against concrete bunkers.

[rls669]

Is it possible to model fire damage in SH3? Flooding is only half the story -- any ship that sits and burns for 2 days is bloody well destroyed even if it never took a single round below the waterline.

Also isn't water hitting the boilers supposed to be catastrophic? Engine room hits don't seem as critical as they should be.

[bill clarke]

Is it possible to model fire damage in SH3? Flooding is only half the story -- any ship that sits and burns for 2 days is bloody well destroyed even if it never took a single round below the waterline.

Also isn't water hitting the boilers supposed to be catastrophic? Engine room hits don't seem as critical as they should be.

That's one of my gripes the fire, it does not seem to affect the ship, and yes, water hittting the boilers will cause a catostrophic (sp) explosion. And AP and HE rounds should be able to damage the ship without having to be aimed at the water line.
I use NYGM Ship damage model and like it very much.

[thyro]

As for the rest of the posts on this thread stating that GW is too hard....

Its cos yer all crap U-Boat Commanders :P

No!!

Its just a plot for the Allieds to win the war!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Is it possible to model fire damage in SH3? Flooding is only half the story -- any ship that sits and burns for 2 days is bloody well destroyed even if it never took a single round below the waterline.

Also isn't water hitting the boilers supposed to be catastrophic? Engine room hits don't seem as critical as they should be.

That's one of my gripes the fire, it does not seem to affect the ship, and yes, water hittting the boilers will cause a catostrophic (sp) explosion. And AP and HE rounds should be able to damage the ship without having to be aimed at the water line.
I use NYGM Ship damage model and like it very much.

Progressive damage by fire is not modelled in SH3.

This is not the fault of any mod.