A Question for everyone

[STEED]

In WW2 could a U-Boat sink a Passenger Liner in 1939.

You have 24 hours, true or false. Answer tomorrow.

[Kapitan]

NO not according to the "cruiser rules" which went out the window anyway.

[kiwi_2005]

A uboat did sink a passenger liner, The Luisitania, but i think it was after 1939. :hmm:

Heres a good read of Uboat Captains talking about how easy it was hunting in american waters during Operation "Paukenschlag," or "Drumbeat." As one captain put it, ERICH TOPP (Commander, U-552): Compared with the difficulties in the Atlantic war, it was a shooting of hares.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2712lostsub.html

[The Avon Lady]

A uboat did sink a passenger liner, The Luisitania, but i think it was after 1939. :hmm:
:nope: Google before you post (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&q=lusitania). :nope:

[kiwi_2005]

Google before you post

I did :oops:

But i found this instead
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2712lostsub.html
:smug:

nothing to do with liners though, still a good read. :|\

[Khayman]

They could sink whatever ship they wanted. As to whether they were allowed to sink Passenger Liners in 1939 (and if it's not a trick question) then no.

Fritz Julius Lemp in U-30 sank the SS Athenia on September 3rd 1939 and got a rocket up his bum from a furious Hitler.

[Torplexed]

Fritz Julius Lemp in U-30 sank the SS Athenia on September 3rd 1939 and got a rocket up his bum from a furious Hitler.

Was that a V-1 or a V-2?

[Khayman]

Good question :D

Neither I suppose, since he didn't buzz or go supersonic. Or if he did then history did not record the incident.

[StdDev]

They could sink whatever ship they wanted. As to whether they were allowed to sink Passenger Liners in 1939 (and if it's not a trick question) then no.

Fritz Julius Lemp in U-30 sank the SS Athenia on September 3rd 1939 and got a rocket up his bum from a furious Hitler.

Didnt hear about the rectal rocket.. I did hear that the nazis changed Lemps ship logs and then claimed that the Athenia was "probably" sunk by the British themselves in an effort to "frame" the Germans and help bring the United States into the war.. I think there were 12 US citizens on the Athenia when it was sunk.

Anywayz... obviously a U-boat was physically able to sink a passenger ship in 1939.
However it was a violation of the Rules of Prize Warfare, which define a set of rules for taking vessels during war. Some of the rules state that: passenger ships may not be sunk; crews of merchant ships must be placed in safety before their ships may be sunk (life boats are not considered a place of safety unless close to land); only warships may be sunk without warning.

All sides signed treaties subscribing to Rules of Prize Warfare before World War I and they were in effect during World War II but all sides ignored them in both wars.

The treaties are still in effect today.

[Kapitan]

Kiwi lusitania was sunk in 1915 or the irish coast. near the ol head of kinsail.

[Konovalov]

Kiwi lusitania was sunk in 1915 or the irish coast. near the ol head of kinsail.

Kapitan,

True, but Avon Lady has pointed this out already. :)

A uboat did sink a passenger liner, The Luisitania, but i think it was after 1939. :hmm:
:nope: Google before you post (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&q=lusitania). :nope:

[Kapitan]

Oh didnt see avons post, must be one of them selective seeing things.

[Khayman]

I like the letter the retired Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher wrote to Churchill who was First Lord of the Admiralty at the time in June 1913;

"[the submarine] cannot capture the merchant ship; she has no spare hands to put a prize crew on board.....she cannot convoy her into harbour.....There is nothing else the submarine can do except sink her capture.....(this) is freely acknowledged to be an altogether barbarous method of warfare....(but) the essence of war is violence, and moderation in war is imbecility"

I quote the last line quite a bit, as i love it.

Perhaps in danger of drifting OT, but what Fisher says seems to suggest that Hitler was wrong to try to limit U-Boat targets. So maybe not that OT.

[STEED]

Just popped in to see the voting looks close, I shall give the answer tomorrow morning. Keep voting everyone.

[Sailor Steve]

I voted with Khayman: whatever the rules were at the time, a U-boat could sink a passengerliner as long as they had sufficient torpedoes or deck-gun ammo.

[August]

Kiwi lusitania was sunk in 1915 or the irish coast. near the ol head of kinsail.

There's been a fair amount of controversy as to whether the torpedo or the munitions the Lusitania was carrying actually sent her to the bottom so quickly.

[Kapitan]

In recent years the myth was quashed as they found evidence that it wasnt, it was coal dust from the bunkers which is highly explosive on its own.

[August]

In recent years the myth was quashed as they found evidence that it wasnt, it was coal dust from the bunkers which is highly explosive on its own.

Nope. No hard evidence was found one way or the other. The coal dust theory remains just that, a theory.

Ballard believes it was likely coal dust but with the ship lying on the side where the torpedo struck it remains impossible to tell for sure.

[kiwi_2005]

Klayman wrote
Fritz Julius Lemp in U-30 sank the SS Athenia on September 3rd 1939

This is what i meant. Not the The Luisitania :damn:

But i would like to thank our Subsim Liberian Avon.... Isn't she just sooooo "Butch" :yep:

:-j

[STEED]

Everyone the answer is yes and no, what's that I hear ok the information -

The Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces
Berlin 30th September 1939
8 copies

Directive No.5

From section 4 - "Attacks on 'passenger ships', or large ships which obviously carry considerable numbers of passengers in addition to cargo, are still forbidden.


The Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces
Berlin 18th October 1939
8 copies

Directive No.7

From section 1 - The Navy may attack passenger ships in convoy or proceeding without lights.


Interesting what do you think of that.

Footnote -
The Fuher and Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces
Headquarters 24th May 1940
7 copies

Directive No.13

From section 4 - Tasks of the Navy.
All restrictions on naval action in English and French waters are hereby cancelled and commanders are free to employ their forces to the fullest extent.

[JSLTIGER]

A uboat did sink a passenger liner, The Luisitania, but i think it was after 1939. :hmm:

Not going to directly comment since it's already been done but:
:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

[Oberon]

My Grandad went across to Canada in the 1930s onboard the Letitia which IIRC was the sister ship of the Athenia :yep: