Hull Integrity & Depth Charges

[Der Teddy Bar]

I am seeking feedback regarding loss of Hull Integrity via depth charges.

Having from almost day one had the % value blanked out, and prior to this not looked at this area, I am not comversant with Hull Integrity loss via depth charges.

From my small tests it would appear that no Hull Integrity is lost from depth charges.

Feedback from those in the know would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[CCIP]

My finding is that it's lost only from close hits. I think that's really a good solution - the hull was indeed sturdy and could stand a shakeup from a more distant explosion, even if there were some damage inside.

And generally, the way I'm killed by depth charges is not through instant death or flooding, but through being crushed after having my hull heavily damaged at significant depths.

[Der Teddy Bar]

CCIP,
Thanks, that what I had thought.

I have been getting myself depth charged and I am using the Hollywood Submarine Damage Mod which is included in NYGM TW.

I have to say that while it may be more 'exciting' it is my feeling that it is extremely unrealistic.

To support my view I refer to several sources of a depth charge attack where the u-boat has survived but been damaged.

The first instance is from the Jürgen Oesten interview by the SHIII’s Dev Team. In this interview he relates a how he was caught submerged by a British destroyer and as a result they received a large amount of damage to the Type II u-boat. The punch line is that a depth charge exploded so close to the u-boat that it dented the pressure hull and knocked the diesel engine off it mounts. This dent was seen from inside the u-boat.

The second instance is that of Teddy Suhren's VII which when depth charged by a plane the 3 explosion was so close as to have an instance where 'a thin jet of flame shot from the closed hatch to the number 5 torpedo tube'... however there were no leakages to the pressure hull, Tube #5 was flooded though.

More can be found.

I understand that we have an issue with ridiculous repair times and the likes, but it does not sit comfortable with me to have an unrealistic occurrence of flooding.

[CCIP]

But flooding isn't tied to hull integrity, is it?

I'd like to see more reports on this. I realize "Das Boot" isn't exactly a source for realism, but I'm sure there's other sources to look at. I'd like to know more about it myself. My initial suspicion, however, is that a hull breach isn't neccesarily a must for leaks to occur. Surely there's a lot of ways a water can come in - heck, in early war, even the diesel exhausts would routinely leak when the boat was submerged.

[Der Teddy Bar]

But flooding isn't tied to hull integrity, is it?
No.

I'd like to see more reports on this. I realize "Das Boot" isn't exactly a source for realism, but I'm sure there's other sources to look at. I'd like to know more about it myself. My initial suspicion, however, is that a hull breach isn't neccesarily a must for leaks to occur. Surely there's a lot of ways a water can come in - heck, in early war, even the diesel exhausts would routinely leak when the boat was submerged.

Hardegen in U-123 had a salvo of 6 depth charges dropped on/around the u-boat in water only 22 metres deep. The damage was
head valves were open i.e. compressed air escaping
tower hatch cracked open (but was closed)
the port engine was down
several tanks could not be blown
most of the batteries were out
bent drive shaft/s
hydrophones out
hydroplanes out

This is the major damage listed, but in all this, no mention of any flooding.

I am not after a Tiger Tank U-boat (trade Mark pending) but the excessive flooding is just as bad.

[CCIP]

I guess the other issue is that for instance the "several tanks could not be blown" issue would affect depth control - and there's nothing in SHIII other than flooding that affects it, meaning flooding is the only workaround for it. Things like 'hatch cracked' would also possibly imply some water being taken on.

Although if it bothers you, I think you know what to change :yep:

Just drop the flooding chance figure to a much higher damage requirement, and off with it.

Myself, I really never minded the flooding issue as it is in NYGM right now. I seem to be getting little flooding with the exception of direct hits (which makes me wonder if somehow I still have the pre-hollywood zones file... not sure why that would be, I did update it to the latest release version) :hmm:

[R1fl3M4n]

yeah if u are flooded... u are going down..

[Myxale]

Cool topic mates! :up:

I gotta say: I read some books lately and there were some pics of a VIIc that made me think it was dead, but i was stated that the Inner pressure body of the sub was intact while the rest of the Boot seemed like blown away! It was DC'ed into Oblivion...But...it still was working, and returned save home. Only the outter hull got hammered away!
This makes clear how strong that inner hull was.

And it was stated that the weakest part of a Boot were the joints of the pipes (flanschen) that went tru' the sub and connected the inner hull with the outter. One of the most common "minnor" floodings occured through the joints and pappenberg's glass-stand!

As for "Das Boot" not being a source for realism: Well it's damn close seeing how the Kaleun that Prochnow potrayed was there at the shooting and added his two cents.

But back on Topic, since our fav. sim does simulate this only with HP's the only thing we can do is to fin a work-around or a compromise!-

Like Teddy stated, the model we have in NYGM may be exciting, and like the name says "hollywood" but far from perfect. :hmm:

Sorry long rant! :doh:

[thyro]

Makes more sense to me if sufered internal damage that would cause flooding rather than be terminated by loss of hull integrity.

From a close explosion the sub will be shaken so badly that internal tubes, equipement etc would be displaced, rupture or damage beyond repair and depending on the air/water pressure will make more/less damage.

Personally rely on hull integrity is like... if the tower was knockout due to explosion or ruders/screws lost or even a critical hit that break the sub in two parts.

Anyway its just my optinion... sinking the sub due to internal problems rather than hull integrity.

But other matter require attention that is the inrealistic repair times... 1, 2 , 7 seconds to repair a critical equipment which will/not make the sub survive is a bit odd if not a joke :)

[CCIP]

As for "Das Boot" not being a source for realism: Well it's damn close seeing how the Kaleun that Prochnow potrayed was there at the shooting and added his two cents.

Well, I mentioned that because of a response to the movie I read, written by the LI of U-190, Werner Hirschmann. He specifically said that the chaos in the depth-charging scenes was cinematic but rather unrealistic, mainly the wild movement of the U-boat. As he said, "pipes would burst, gauges and lights break, but the boat wouldn't move an inch. It felt like a hammer striking against an immovable object. You had an instinctive urge to duck, but one might wonder why." If the boat moved around this much, the hull would probably shatter in moments.

Anyway, I'd still say Das Boot is the most realistic war movie I've seen so far - but you have to be careful to discern purpose-made dramatic footage, especially when it was reviewed by one of the 'real deal' guys on account of how a boat behaved under attack :yep:

I wish I had more accounts like that.

[Nedlam]

I have to say that while it may be more 'exciting' it is my feeling that it is extremely unrealistic.

Are you talking about flooding as it relates to getting Depth charged and the effects of RL compared to the game? I guess the Hollywood Damage mod a little too bit "Hollywood" with the desperate attempt to stop flooding before you drowned .

What would the alternative be? I ask because I think I can hear the wheels turning and the makings of another NYGM mod in the works... :)

BTW I love the work you and the rest have done with the Tonnage War Mod (and those of you who did the Greywolves mod too). I'm looking forward with what your devious minds come up with next.

While you have your thinking cap on could you fix the escorts behavior in general. They are way too stupid and easy to deal with.

[Pablo]

Hi!

I have found an on-line source that may be of some interest in this area. It is a (formerly) confidential statement of U.S. Pacific Fleet submarine doctrine (http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/sub_doctrine.htm#contents), dated May 1944. See especially Chapter V regarding defensive measures.

I realize it is not German submarine doctrine, but it does have some interesting insights into mechanisms by which submarines are damaged, and the means used by U.S. submarines to counter them.

Pablo

[Myxale]

Good point CCIP :up:
Can you piont me to the thing you read- always wanna know more sources.

Well, but then again some books state, -and jesus i know it'S hard to tell ; as for us not being there and all,- that an close up detonation of a DC would made everything in the boot rattle and deck plates bouncing off the ground.

:hmm:

[Keelbuster]

in my experience with TW, the way I've died with DCs is by pressure - reduced crush-depth, following by chain-reaction crush in weakened hull. It's caused me to change my strategy in evasion. I used to go right down to the red line (165m) immediately. At this depth, a close DC will cause a crush. Now I'm going down to 100m, or 90m maybe. I've learned that the main way to evade escorts is by _distance_, not depth. It takes longer to get down to 165m, costing distance, and in good weather depth is no protection from Asdic. Following some advice i received on these forums, I've been evading at PD, 'using the vertical' so to speak, enjoying periscope intel, and diving only to evade direct attack. Seems to work pretty good. Crush death is so sudden - no time to get shallow again, just chain-reaction crunch.

Kb

[U-Bones]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me as if "hull integrity" in game is actually used more in the sense of "hull strength".

The actual meaning of the word integrity, in the naval sense, is how "water tight" something is.

I frequently wish the pumps were modeled in game as an ongoing constant battle.

Carry on !