Snorkel visibility - again...

[xrvjorn]

Searching the forum for snorkel visibility, I've found some threads about a mod that decreases it. There are also later threads about using periscope depth or a deeper snorkel depth when snorkling.

Is the visibility still an issue when the snorkel is just above the waves, or was it only so if you used SH3's original snorkel depths?

[VonHelsching]

It is definitly still an issue, esp. in 1944 and 1945. The snorkel still attrracts planes like flies. When you have a 3 cm and a 3 mm radar against you, there is little room in getting away.

[Tonnage_Ace]

I forget whose mod I used but it fixed this issue immensely. They figured that it wasn't the radar which was detecting your snorkel but their vision. I was able to snorkel in a XXI at 16m with no problems, except when an airplane just happened to be right on top of you, which was very realistic.

I'd be very interested to find out if GW has this mod implemented...

[VonHelsching]

I think it was called Jungmann's Snorkel Fix. In my post I was referring to what happens after the application of the fix...

[Collie]

I have installed NYGM 1.03 and the snorkell problem went away.

I'm currently heading up the English Channel in late 1944 snorkelling all the way and it's as quiet as a graveyard. I'm heading towards Bergen but will pop into Dover to see what's happening...

So for me snorkelling at the proper depth and using NYGM it seems to be fairly accurate

[VonHelsching]

But is the visibility fix still useful/required when you're snorkeling as deep as possible? All threads I found about snorkel fixes predates the threads that tell you not to use the stock snorkel depth.

I googled into http://www.uboataces.com/snorkel.shtml where it says that radar detected snorkels at about 5 km, whereas a surfaced boat was detected at about 10 km.

The visibility fix is both useful and required. I think it is incorporated in the two big modpackes NYGM and GW. Also I have the impression that the air bases and patrols were also tweaked in these mods (It's best someone from the modpack teams to answer that).

The default snorkeldepth was known as problematic and was assessed either by manual methods in every mission or by individual mods. This holds true especially for IXD/2. Check this:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48560

and for the XXI:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47637

[Kpt. Lehmann]

GW does include the snorkel fix relative to being too easily detected by enemy radar. ;)

[HW3]

For those that want it, Jungman's SensorPak mod is now available at Terrapin's site.

[xrvjorn]

The visibility fix is both useful and required.


Thx, that's what I was wondering. I've got the snorkel depth fix from your battery, range and D2 torp fixes. :up:

For those that want it, Jungman's SensorPak mod is now available at Terrapin's site.

Found it! I assume that AI_Sensors.dat it the file I need if I don't want the other stuff in the mod. There was something to improve the Metox too, but googling and searching this forum leads me to beleive that the Metox range was just as bad IRL as in game.

[VonHelsching]

Just be careful with the zip_within_the_zip. You can get easily confused. Read the two readmes carefully. The one is just the snorkel, and the other includes a sonar DC fix. What mods do you have installed? The .zon file is also used by Advanced Holywood Damage.

I cannot say that I'm happy with that fix, BTW. I have the gut feeling that there is room for improvement...
I don't know wht has been done with the latest big modpacks, though (IuB, GW, NYGM).

[Ducimus]

It is definitly still an issue, esp. in 1944 and 1945. The snorkel still attrracts planes like flies. When you have a 3 cm and a 3 mm radar against you, there is little room in getting away.

its the highest version of airborne radar tahts the killer. It has a min hight of like 0.03 if i remember right. (acutally theres two setting that effect min height, one is zeroed out the other is 0.03)

This isn't addressed either by oversight or by design in jungmans snorkel fix mod. Needless to say, the day i didnt have that snorke up so much as 0.05 meters (sputtering under the surface betweeen waves) and a sunderland dropped me out of TC with an ashcan on my wintergarden after only 2 hours snorkeling , i prompty modded that radar. :roll:

[Ducimus]

Hell, i even have my game set to where it will automatically pause when an aircraft is detected. Nice mechanic when im in High TC enroute to patrol area, ill go do somethign else. If a its a plane, the game pauses and ill deal with it then. Encoutnering a warship randomly is highly unlikely so i normally dont worry about it.

But even with this type of setup, if the plane isnt detected, my TC wont drop either. So,.... KABOOM, boat is a big mess and i start saying alot of four letter explanitives.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I forget whose mod I used but it fixed this issue immensely. They figured that it wasn't the radar which was detecting your snorkel but their vision. I was able to snorkel in a XXI at 16m with no problems, except when an airplane just happened to be right on top of you, which was very realistic.

I'd be very interested to find out if GW has this mod implemented...

GW does indeed include Jungman's snorkel fix relating to detection. Though it may not be a cure-all it certainly helps.

[Ducimus]

The published snorkel fix, i beleive only makes the AI's vision have a minimum height of 1 meter. Its default is 0. The game makes no differentioin between a fully surfaced sub and only 1 meter of snorkel. AI detection is rather boolean in this regard.

I dont think it addressed radar, and for the most part there isnt much of a reason to. Some of the earlier radar models the AI uses has a minsurface heigh of like... 1.5 to nearly 2 meters (i forget the exact number), so for the most part, radar doesnt become too much of an issue....... save one radar model with its min surface height of 0.03.

From my experience, late war, with that radar at its default value, your better of recharging your batteries on the surface then snorkeling, simply because you have a better chance to see the bastard coming. Once your submerged your totally blind to him. Even leaving the observation scope up while snorkeling doesnt always give you enough of (if any) warning that your about to get bombed.

[mike_espo]

Just finished a home made mission testing the IX boats. After sinking an escort with the G7es acoustic torpedo :o :huh: . Could not believe it!! :up:

Anyway, Then went snorkeling using 512x TC, no problems at all, Covered 1000miles...this in the Area just west of Portugal in spring 1944. Only when I surfaced at night did I finally detect aircraft. I did get the snorkel and Btty fix though :hmm:

Incidentally, I did not know that you could send and pick up radio signals while at snorkel depth...which for the IXC was 14m.

[Ducimus]

Anyway, Then went snorkeling using 512x TC, no problems at all, Covered 1000miles...this in the Area just west of Portugal in spring 1944. Only when I surfaced at night did I finally detect aircraft. I did get the snorkel and Btty fix though :hmm:
.

From what i understand, 3cm radar isnt very common, and only 1 or 2 types of planes have the possiblity of spawning with it.

I think it sticks in my mind because i was nailed while snorkeling in two consecutive patrols (while having said snorkel fixes in place) and had to turn home because the boat was too badly damaged.

[VonHelsching]

I forget whose mod I used but it fixed this issue immensely. They figured that it wasn't the radar which was detecting your snorkel but their vision. I was able to snorkel in a XXI at 16m with no problems, except when an airplane just happened to be right on top of you, which was very realistic.

I'd be very interested to find out if GW has this mod implemented...

GW does indeed include Jungman's snorkel fix relating to detection. Though it may not be a cure-all it certainly helps.

So, it's true...Nobody has touched AI sensors.dat after July 2005...

[Ducimus]

I forget whose mod I used but it fixed this issue immensely. They figured that it wasn't the radar which was detecting your snorkel but their vision. I was able to snorkel in a XXI at 16m with no problems, except when an airplane just happened to be right on top of you, which was very realistic.

I'd be very interested to find out if GW has this mod implemented...

GW does indeed include Jungman's snorkel fix relating to detection. Though it may not be a cure-all it certainly helps.

So, it's true...Nobody has touched AI sensors.dat after July 2005...

I woudlnt say that. Im sure lots of ppl have, just nobody's gone and zipped it up yet. I have my own whole sensor suite im running, i call it "MY_Sensor_mod" in JSGME, i figure most everyones been tweaking with various files. Not like the tools to do so is any big secret or overly hard to use.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I forget whose mod I used but it fixed this issue immensely. They figured that it wasn't the radar which was detecting your snorkel but their vision. I was able to snorkel in a XXI at 16m with no problems, except when an airplane just happened to be right on top of you, which was very realistic.

I'd be very interested to find out if GW has this mod implemented...

GW does indeed include Jungman's snorkel fix relating to detection. Though it may not be a cure-all it certainly helps.

So, it's true...Nobody has touched AI sensors.dat after July 2005...

I woudlnt say that. Im sure lots of ppl have, just nobody's gone and zipped it up yet. I have my own whole sensor suite im running, i call it "MY_Sensor_mod" in JSGME, i figure most everyones been tweaking with various files. Not like the tools to do so is any big secret or overly hard to use.

Rgr that...

@ vonHelsching the GW team (specifically Marhkimov and myself) have spent a great deal of time on the DD agression issues and the DD pinpoint laser guided deptch charge system presented in stock.

Its in the readme regarding the sources of the information. Redwine, CB, Casposfungin, Jungman, and our very own Gouldjg and Rubini all made useful discoveries presented in 22 or so page thread dealing with that matter.

To make a long story short, this is probably the most tested element of GW. Without giving a 20 page dissertation that may come in the future... I think we hit the nail on the head.

In GW early in the war the DD's are dummies. As the war goes on, crew skill generally increases as do the number of escorts and the availability of quality equipment. Your chances of career survivablilty in DiD mode drop significantly.

Once we refine the mechanical elements in GW that need tuning, I can discuss these things in more detail.

I'm sorry if that sounds like I'm saying, "Trust me!" Its only that I have to prioritize my time still... Problem solving first... theory and discussion later.

I'm sorry if you feel this isn't what you expected to hear.

[VonHelsching]

Kptn.

You misunderstood me, probably beacause I was not clear enough. I am aware about the work on DD agression. I was referring on the visibility and spotting possibilities of the snorkel while submerged.

[Ducimus]

Heh i suppose i should probably zip up and acutally publish all the crap i mod at some ponit in time.

In, "my_sensor_mod" i have the following:

AI_sensors.dat
DC_X_H.sim
DC_X_H.zon
DepthCharges.sim
Sensor.dat

Each one ive done various tweaks to balancing realism with gameplay to make the most enjoyable and thrilling SH3 experience i can create.


If i were to make a readme for just the AI sensors.dat alone..

Scrolling through it real quick heres what i did:

-Made AI passive detecton work to 500 meters instead of 300 meters. ( i was expermenting with deep diiving and DC's gonig below 300 meters. DIdnt see the need to change it back to default of 300 )

- Left passive min range at 10 meters


- Made AI active detection work down to 500 meters instead of 300 meters.

- Min range on active is 75 meters (most mods are much wider then this, I wanted the AI to get the ashcans in the ballpark, not miss me every time, jungmans i beleive is min range of 120)

- I dont remember if i modded this or not, but max bearing on active is 90 I vaugly recall trying thinking about making the active sonar cone only *slighly* smaller, dont remember if i did it or not. (if i remember jungmans has his at 70, so his is fairly narrow)

- I think i may have adusted one of the higher end passive & active sonar sensitivy to 0.06. I don't recall if that was default or not.

- I nerfed airbourne radar ASVMarkVIII it used to have a minsurface hight of 0.03. My nerf was i abritraly put in a minsurface height of 1 meter. (i was really pissed) i overkilled it i think. In hindsight i think im going to go back and scale all airbourne radar so each one is slightly better then the last, but certanly not 0.03 min surface height. 0.03 is realistic yes, but i think its a game killer. By comparision the minsurface height of the earliest airborne radar is 1.5 which i left untouched.




I *think* thats all of what i did to AI sensor.dat.

As for the other files the rough gist is:

- Hedgehogs: i gave them a 200 meter depth limit, but a 50 meter depth percision. meaning that a hedghog spread will detonate anywhere between 200 and 250 meters randomly. If you can get down to 260 in time your safe, if your like 225, you *might* get lucky and have the hedge hog explode before it reaches your boat. (as you can see by my sig, im not always lucky or sucessful, bit it gives you more of a fighting chance, also makes for some cool multiple explosion sounds underwater :D )

- Depthcharges gave them a max radius of 20 (default is 40), and a percision of 25, meaning it will explode anywhere within 25 meters of its intended depth setting. (jungmans i think has a max radius of 15 or so)


- Then i fooled around with radar and RWR ranges in the sensor.dat file. Other mods i used, i felt the range was too extreme on the RWR, as it toally removed the surpise and challenge when i could see planes coming miles away. So I made my own mod where the ranges were better then stock, useful, but not so useful that it totally removes aircraft as a danger. Id dig into the file and list what i did, but im outta time right now.

[johnfriesen77]

[Visual]
Detection time=0.6 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Fog factor=0.9 ;[>=0]
Light factor=1.2 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=0.9 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=300 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]

Have I done this right.. decrease waves factor from 1.0 to 0.9 to make waves reduce sightings slightly?

[Ducimus]

Wave factor effects passive sonar detection range.

For example, If you remove wave factor (zeroing it out) at 15 kt winds and rough seas a DD will be able to hear you from a fairlly long distance. Say 6K meters or so. By comparision, leaving the wave factor at default, under the same conditions the DD wont hear you until your within 1200 meters or so. In other words, at any given wave factor setting, the calmer the sea's the farther the detection range.


Although I did alot of testing on this, i dont remember how the numbers scaled (IE is higher = lower wave factor effect or vise versa) I posted ALOT of testing results in the old 30 page thread on "getting rid of pin point DD drops" or something like that. Same thread the DD aggression mod was bourn from.