Sub upgrades: VIIB to VIIc vs VIIb to IX?

[scandium]

New to posting here, though I've been lurking for a couple months and playing SH for a little longer, and anyway I thought I'd try and get some opinions on the merits of the different subs that become available after aquiring a VIIb. Specifically: do you upgrade from a VIIb to a VIIc or to a type IX and why?

My observations so far: the VIIc appears identical to the VIIb, but for the quicker drive time, and looks like it may allow certain upgrades either sooner than available on the VIIb or that may not be available for the VIIb at all (thinking specifically of MAN diesals here, though I could be wrong and there may be others).

On the IX: like the increased firepower, range, and crew compliment but it handles like a beached whale. In the early war I usually crash dive on aircraft sightings and engage with guns (if conditions are favourable) DDs but do the reverse in the IX (never engage DDs but usually engage aircraft, at least on their initial pass). The more significant drawback, in the only campaign I'd tried IXs in (so please let me know if this is the norm or not in your experience), was that I went from fighting convoy battles in the North Atlantic (with the 7th flotilla) and hair raising patrols into the North Sea and Scapa flow to, exclusively, longe range patrols between Gibraltor and Freetown (for 7 consecutive patrols, between Dec '40 - Nov '41 before retiring and beginning a new career to learn manual targetting and install SH3 Commander and IUB for more spice). Anyway, during those 11 months in the IX I encountered no convoys and only 1 warship (a flower corvette) - is this typical of others experience in the IX as well?

Anyway, apologize if this has (undoubtedly) been touched on in other threads but hoping to gain others perspective on the VIIc vs IX upgrade path and why they choose whichever they go with.

[Sailor Steve]

I don't really make a distinction. I have a career going with each flotilla, and I take the boat that's offered to me. I'm currently in early 1940, and if I lose my 7th Flotilla commander there's a Type IX awaiting his replacement.

[scandium]

Okay I also take whatever boat I'm offered, depending on flotilla choice (IIA exclusively except for my one startup in the 7th, instead of the 1st flotilla which I'd always gone previously and where I got the IIVb form the get-go) but eventually, after starting in 09/39, other boats become available no matter which flotilla you start with: if in the first flotilla, even if you never transfer (as I had, to the 2nd Flotilla in my IX game) you will still have the upgrade choices of the IID and shortly thereafter the VIIb and later VIIc. Other flotillas also offer upgrades over time.

So its not really a matter, or exclusively a matter, of what you start with but what you consider viable upgrades and what you prefer to skip. Or are you saying you take whatever boat you're given with no plan to ever upgrade it? If not you're misunderstanding my basic question. For instance, when starting in a IIA I skip the IID in favour of the VIIb that's offered shortly thereafter (in 1st flotilla) but get hung up on where to go from there. I don't have the VIIc experience to know if its worth upgrading to from a VIIb, though it does seem like it might offer some upgrades not available in the IIVb (hoping for confirmation one way or the other) while the IX, based on only one part of a campaign (7 patrols I spent in the b & c) radically changed my theatre of operations and the nature of subsequent "battles" (loosely used because they were mostly one sided affairs against unarmed, or underarmed, and unescorted merchants). Have other IX players experenced this as well?

These are the questions I have as I begin my new campaign (1st flotilla, type IIA - until better boats come along).

[Sailor Steve]

No, I haven't upgraded to a new boat yet. We'll see.

Basically I was responding to your post while saying I don't really have any advice to offer in this case.

[U-Dog]

Well once you have SH Commander installed you can choose your own patrol grid.
I just started type ix campaign & am off to the mid-atlantic myself.

[Ducimus]

Well, if your not into Long range patrols, definatly stay out of the 2nd and 10th flotilla's, and IX boats.

Usually when i get impatient, i think, "whats my damn fired hurry to return to port? Im just gonna run right back out here again anyway".


As per convoy's, being in an IX boat has nothing to do with if you engage convoys or not. Your position on the grid does. Generally speaking your not goign to run into convoys south of gibralter, or on the US east coast. You'll usually find them somewhere in the mid atlantic making the crossing between the america's and britian. Or coming out of, or gonig enroute to, Gibralter.


While their submerged turning isnt anything to write home about, IX boats acutally make ideal convoy attackers if your good at plotting your position, and are daring enough to:,
- go to flank speed and turn on your heel to bring your stern to bear after letting your bow tubes loose. Or

- position yourself between two colums of ships to use both bow and stern tubes Or..

- Night surface attack. (not recommended after mid41 :D ) Early war you can wreek havoc with an IX boat. Ive engaged convoys, 3 times in a single night.

The real drawback to an IX boat, is being depthcharged. Its a bit harder to surivive if you've got 3 or more elite escorts on you. But these situations are extremly rare in campign mode. (ive only been sunk once by DC, and that was because of a mod that introduced an Elite HK group in biscay bay, but the fact is to acutally run into them is not very likely since their not always there) More likely then not, you'll get bombed by an aircraft before you'll be sunk to depth charging.

[Montbrun]

Depending on what MODs you use, I usually save my Renown, and upgrade from a VIIb to a IXc, so I can get all of the nice "goodies" when I do...

[jasondef]

The VIIC mainly has the advantage over the VIIB in that if you stick to the VIIC through later in the war, it becomes alot more upgradable with AA guns, and can be quite formidable in that respect. So if you do stay with a VII, get the VIIC as soon as you can.

If you want to go with the IX, I advise you hold out until the IXC is available (July '41, or Jan '41 w/Commander mod) rather than going with the IXB. This gives you huge range, and the ability to go just about anywhere. While the patrol grid assignments with the stock game won't have much variety, you'll be thankful for the IXC if you choose to customize your patrol grid assignments using SH3 Commander mod, as you will than have much more choices of where to go at your disposal; much more so than either VII or IXB.

[scandium]

Some interesting replies here:


U-Dog said
Well once you have SH Commander installed you can choose your own patrol grid.
I just started type ix campaign & am off to the mid-atlantic myself.

I didn't in that campaign, but have since just started using that and the latest version of IUB. SH3 Commander I installed more to try and "undo" some of the features in IUB that I wasn't interested in, plus I like its bio features. Not sure I want to choose my own grid though, the option's nice but part of what made that last campaign (the first half of it, in the type VIIb) was that for 10 missions straight (all the VIIb ones in 7th flotilla) I was sent on either a "hair raising" mission to places like scapa flow or on routes where I subsequently intercepted convoys.

Ducimus said
Well, if your not into Long range patrols, definatly stay out of the 2nd and 10th flotilla's, and IX boats. Yeah I think you nailed it. I was having one of my best campaigns ever in the 7th flotilla/VIIb combo until I transferred to the 2nd and upgraded to a IX. It went south from there.

As per convoy's, being in an IX boat has nothing to do with if you engage convoys or not. Your position on the grid does. Generally speaking your not goign to run into convoys south of gibralter, or on the US east coast. You'll usually find them somewhere in the mid atlantic making the crossing between the america's and britian. Or coming out of, or gonig enroute to, Gibralter.

Yeah that confirms my experience and now I know that it wasn't "unique" to that campaign but instead what I can expect in future campaigns as well if I get sent to those locales (didn't know about the US though as I "retired" before they formally entered the war). Given my preference for taking assigned grids, shorter patrols, and operating north of Gibraltor, my best bet then is probably the VIIb/c and sticking to either the 1st or 7th flotilla.

Montbrun said
Depending on what MODs you use, I usually save my Renown, and upgrade from a VIIb to a IXc, so I can get all of the nice "goodies" when I do...

That was more or less the route I went my last campaign, except that I got really lucky in my first few patrols and was able to get a huge enough renown boost to go to a fully modded IXb in Dec '40 then IXc in July '41 (didn'thave quite enough left for everything though).

In my first patrol that game I intercepted a convoy at noon, overcast, light fog, calm sea & lone escort well in front of the convoy (a V&W Destroyer I think). At 10 deg bearing, 5 km range he was nicely outlined while I was certainly invisible to him sitting on the surface so I went ahead slow and engaged him with my deck gun, sinking him with only minor damage before the rest of the convoy came into sight and I then got a nice deck gun/torp spree sinking 70,000 tons of enemy shipping.

My third patrol had an almost identical intercept (same weather, about the same time of day) with what looked like a lone DD out front again, but a little closer to me and to the first line of merchants. Engaged, sunk him (took more hits that time) and almost missed the trailing flower corvette that, before the gun fight was over, had observed it and sped to intercept and ram me broadside. Anyway I torpedoed it @ less than 1000 meters (decided to turn and fight rather than try and dive) but had it been anything other than a slow corvette I would have been toast; as it was I racked up another big gun/torp spree.

After those two encounters and other narrow escapes my IX missions were kinda dull by comparison so now I'm really leaning on just sticking to type VII variants.

[scandium]

The VIIC mainly has the advantage over the VIIB in that if you stick to the VIIC through later in the war, it becomes alot more upgradable with AA guns, and can be quite formidable in that respect. So if you do stay with a VII, get the VIIC as soon as you can.


I think that's the route I'll go: either IIA (1st flotilla) to VIIb when it becomes available to VIIc as soon as its available & I have enough renown, or I might go 7th flotilla again and start with the VIIb.

Right now I'm experimenting with mods (IUB 1.03 mainly) and manual targetting but I think the IX is out as, despite its nice firepower, it doesn't suit my taste for taking assigned grids, shorter patrols, and more action intensive theatres.

[Ducimus]

my IX missions were kinda dull by comparison so now I'm really leaning on just sticking to type VII variants.

It really depends on on the mods installed and WHERE you patrol. (I have a version of improved convoys I tinkered with that spice things up in areas it intentionally and i feel unneccessarily ramped down)

Trust me, ive had some really action packed patrols in an IX.
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46558
(you might enjoy the story, this was on a stock version of improved convoys, no tinkering by me)

The most boring part, is the transatlantic crossing. 20, to 25 days if i remember correctly.

[Quillan]

In my first career, I hung on to my beloved VIIB until late 1941. By that time, the air threat had become so great that I switched to the VIIC to get the better AA firepower. In this one, I'm going to the VIIC as soon as they become available.

[scandium]

It really depends on on the mods installed and WHERE you patrol. (I have a version of improved convoys I tinkered with that spice things up in areas it intentionally and i feel unneccessarily ramped down)

Trust me, ive had some really action packed patrols in an IX.
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46558
(you might enjoy the story, this was on a stock version of improved convoys, no tinkering by me)

The most boring part, is the transatlantic crossing. 20, to 25 days if i remember correctly.

In my IX game I was playing vanilla SH3 1.4b but I've since added IUB 1.03 and the latest SH3 Commander (likely all I'll be using as IUB seems to include "everything but the kitchen sink" - although I did see a galley in my IIA for the first time after installing those two, whether from IUB or SH3C I don't know but maybe it includes the kitchen sink after all). I'm not 100% certain but I think improved convoys are included in IUB... I'll have to check out your patrol thread, this month I've been devouring everything U-boat related I can find (patrol logs, nonfiction & fictional u-boat books, online archives, etc).

[scandium]

In my first career, I hung on to my beloved VIIB until late 1941. By that time, the air threat had become so great that I switched to the VIIC to get the better AA firepower. In this one, I'm going to the VIIC as soon as they become available.

Do you recall noticing whether any other upgrades were available for the VIIc besides the improved flak? Just wondering because I had my VIIb until Dec '40 and only the first engine upgrade was available; but when I upgraded to the IXb I could upgrade to the MAN diesels as well which left me wondering whether the VIIb wasn't upgradable to them or if the tech simply hadn't been developed until the month or so my new IX was being commissioned. I'm assuming in either case that the VIIc will allow things like the MAN diesels, radar, schnorkel, and anti-sonar coatings etc as they're developed.

[Ducimus]

[. I'll have to check out your patrol thread,.


If you do that, read this one, it will give you a much better perspective on what its like in an IX boat in this game.

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47668

I havent updated it in quite awhile.

[jasondef]

Do you recall noticing whether any other upgrades were available for the VIIc besides the improved flak?The main difference is that the VIIC can upgrade to a much bigger conning tower/bridge than the VIIB, resulting in being able to carry the greatter AA firepower. I think everything else the upgrades are the same between the two, but I'm not 100% on that.
me wondering whether the VIIb wasn't upgradable to them or if the tech simply hadn't been developed until the month or so my new IX was being commissioned
Don't forget to check the tech tree at the U-Boat upgrade screen, it might answer these questions for you.

[scandium]

[. I'll have to check out your patrol thread,.


If you do that, read this one, it will give you a much better perspective on what its like in an IX boat in this game.

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47668

I havent updated it in quite awhile.

Read both threads, some very sweet tonnage/renown in those patrols but unfortunate conclusion to the first one with the boat being destroyed by aircraft after a highly successful task force engagement.

I've been lucky enough, so far, to not take a direct hit from bombing though I have had crew killed by the shrapnel/concussion from near misses/nicks. I should qualify that: I've never had my boat destroyed directly by aircraft but they did play an indirect role in one patrol at scapa flow in an older campaign; after being shelled and damaged by a DD during a running gunfight I was rammed after firing two torps that missed and crash diving to late. My conning tower took the brunt of it and was nicely smashed up but there was also flooding in other compartments, possibly from the shelling, and my hull integretity was reduced to 16%. The destroyer wasn't so "lucky", and the beating he'd taken from our own deck gun had weakened his hull enough that he broke apart upon the collision (some small consolation).

With the DD out of action and the flooding I immediately blew balast and we managed to surface in one piece with most of the ship pumped out. Our AA guns were destroyed though and between that and the condition of the boat we were sitting ducks when one of the watch spotted an aircraft. I reflexively crash dived, having no way to fight back and in no condition to take another blow, and at 30 meters the lights blew out, the ship started coming apart and there were repeated calls of "man down". Blew ballast to no avail and the ship broke up at 40 meters depth.

My tendency to somewhat recklessly take on DDs has led to some extremely exciting surface battles but also to the premature end of more than a few careers. In the future I think I'll try and limit this to scenarios with lower risk, high reward and save the majority of the gunfights for armed merchants who have much less firepower and capability to ram :)

[scandium]

Don't forget to check the tech tree at the U-Boat upgrade screen, it might answer these questions for you.

The unfortunate thing about the tech tree is that, while it does show what's available and roughly when, aside from new conning towers it doesn't link any of the tech to the boats. The wiki also states, in its tech development list, that certain tech may not be available on all boats so there really doesn't seem to be any definitive answers out there.

My gut instinct, based on my experience upto Nov '41 (the longest campaign I've run without getting KIA or "retiring") and the responses so far is that as the newer boats are developed the new tech will drop off and cease to be available on older models such as the VIIb. Otherwise the VIIc means quite a period of inactivity, while its being commissioned, just for improved AA and a 3 second faster dive time (but slightly slower top speeds). This was why I hadn't considered it worthwhile before, but in light of my thinking now that it may be able to use new tech that the VIIb can't, in addition to the improved AA, its worth the time in dry dock to wait for the new boat's comissioning and in the campaign I just started I'll go for it as soon as it becomes available (renown permitting).

[Quillan]

Do you recall noticing whether any other upgrades were available for the VIIc besides the improved flak? Just wondering because I had my VIIb until Dec '40 and only the first engine upgrade was available; but when I upgraded to the IXb I could upgrade to the MAN diesels as well which left me wondering whether the VIIb wasn't upgradable to them or if the tech simply hadn't been developed until the month or so my new IX was being commissioned. I'm assuming in either case that the VIIc will allow things like the MAN diesels, radar, schnorkel, and anti-sonar coatings etc as they're developed.

Well, by the time I got around to switching to the VIIC, I'd already had two engine, two battery, one flak gun, radar, radar detector, hydrophone and one anechoic coating upgrades if I remember correctly. Everything I had on the VIIB I was able to repurchase on the VIIC. It cost me about 6000 renown on top of the 3000 to buy the boat, but I did it. I was also able to get the VIIC/3 conning tower, with two light flak emplacements on the bridge and the heavy flak on the wintergarten.

[Keelbuster]

VIIB vs. VIIC

for me, the main thing is top speed - even more important than a 3 second dive time savings. With MAN upgrade the top speed for VIIB is 21kts in calm sea, and around 17 or 18 for VIIC in calm sea. VIIC is slower, which is really annoying when it comes to that sudden task-force detection and rush to intercept. 21kts also allows you to run away from smaller escorts on the surface. From what I've read on this thread, alberich and radar detector are available for VIIB. These are vital. The big question is: can VIIB use the schnorkel? Survival is next to impossible in the late war without the schnorkel, and hence if I can't have it on my VIIB, I will have to switch to a VIIC.

Second - I have the VIIB, and I never have the option to upgrade to VIIC. IXC is available, and I'm pretty sure that VIIC would be available if I had another boat (Mar 41). I think careers that start at this time get the VIIC. Does having the VIIB prevent the upgrade to VIIC? Will I have to buy an IXB and then a VIIC?

Third - VIIB looks better than the VIIC - the net-cutter looks wicked.

KB

P.S - does anyone ever use active radar or active sonar? I never do, but then again I don't do manual targetting.

[scandium]

Some more really good responses here and its nice to have it confirmed that the VIIb allows at least most of the upgrades (that we're aware of at this point in the thread) of the VIIc with the schnorkel being the question mark.

I like as much top as I can get too, although for a slightly different reason: going to flank speed on the surface, once detected, in my initial surface torpedo attack against convoys or unescorted merchants. There an extra few knots can mean the difference etween a close range beam shot hitting or missing and lessens exposure to gunfire from armed merchants and escorts.

At the same time I can see the merit of the improved flak in the VIIc, so perhaps the best time to upgrade isn't as soon as the VIIc becomes available but instead later in the war after the US enters and airborne ASW becomes a bigger threat (also if I'm not mistaken the VIIb/2 conning tower, with twin 20 cm flak stations is available before the VIIc/2).

[scandium]

Bumping my own thread just in case anyone has anything more to add or can answer some of the unanswered questions that have been raised.

[scandium]

Second - I have the VIIB, and I never have the option to upgrade to VIIC. IXC is available, and I'm pretty sure that VIIC would be available if I had another boat (Mar 41). I think careers that start at this time get the VIIC. Does having the VIIB prevent the upgrade to VIIC? Will I have to buy an IXB and then a VIIC?


This must be due to either your current flotilla (not all boats are used by all flotillas) or else to some mod installed that affects boat availability, or lastly a bug if you aren't using v 1.4b. In my campaign where I started in the 7th flotilla, in a VIIb, the VIIc was an available upgrade from it after I'd completely only a few patrols (so somewhere between Dec '39 - March '40 I think but long before Mar '41 in any case). I didn't upgrade to it because looking at its specs I didn't see the point, and instead later transferred to the 2nd Flotilla in Dec '40 and upgraded to a IXb and later IXc. Not sure of its precise availability or what other flotillas you can upgrade to it in (but definitely in the 7th you can go VIIb -> VIIc... maybe someone else can fill these blanks in).

[Keelbuster]

YOu're right about that. Other flotillas (e.g. 29th) allow VIIB->VIIC.

Now - about the schorknel - I'm about to start a new boote - could someone tell me if VIIB can use Schnorkel?

Kb