View Full Version : LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #8: Akula TA HotFix?
LuftWolf
03-11-06, 03:40 AM
What'll be?
LuftWolf
03-11-06, 04:41 AM
Ok, LWAMI 3.00 is done.
I'm just waiting for you guys to let me know what you want me to do with the Akula TA, and, of course, I have to write the readme. :)
So, realistically, tomorrow afternoon or tomorrow night for sure. I'm not making any other changes, and the essential parts of what I have done have been tested by a person from Subsim and various other communities so I am confident that I won't feel the need to alter something.
By the way, the FFG AI MH-60's are a nasty weapon. :rock: :arrgh!:
I'm sure the first time one of you skimmers dips on me and I hear that 14000hz screech on top of me, and I know what's coming next, I'll feel some mixed emotions. :sunny:
Cheers,
David
Ok, LWAMI 3.00 is done.
I'm just waiting for you guys to let me know what you want me to do with the Akula TA, and, of course, I have to write the readme. :)
So, realistically, tomorrow afternoon or tomorrow night for sure. I'm not making any other changes, and the essential parts of what I have done have been tested by someone else from the Subsim and various other communities so I am confident that I won't feel the need to alter something.
By the way, the FFG AI MH-60's are a nasty weapon. :rock: :arrgh!:
I'm sure the first time one of you skimmers dips on me and I hear that 14000hz screech on top of me, and I know what's coming next, I'll feel some mixed emotions. :sunny:
Cheers,
David
I think it's not only the Akula's TA, I lost mine (SW) a few times since 103, lousy when it happens, but thats just a part of live. :)
LuftWolf
03-11-06, 05:01 AM
Well, it's just that I get the impression that it is happening more frequently with the Akula TA, which makes sense in terms of geometry, based on its placement and the nature of the bug.
I would set the verticle offset to be equal to the TA's on western subs, so it would at least be fair, well uh, equally unfair. :hmm: :88)
Placing the TA to the side of the propeler (like it is on US sub) would be even safer.
Fandango
03-11-06, 06:13 AM
My vote goes for the "I don't want my TA to break so much". I play without SHOW TRUTH ON and the 3d view is not THAT important for me... :dead:
Actually, I didn't think it could be fixed that easily... :up:
sonar732
03-11-06, 07:59 AM
I agree that if you are going to reposision the TA, move it to the sides so that it will have the same "cut" ability as in the American subs.
goldorak
03-11-06, 08:04 AM
I agree that if you are going to reposision the TA, move it to the sides so that it will have the same "cut" ability as in the American subs.
I agree, at least until SCS fixes this bug, because it is a bug.
The towed array breaks every time the sub changes attitude, for instance going from deep to shallow all goes well until the precise moment that the bow is below the stern (and this should not be happening, subs are not crabs).
sonar732
03-11-06, 12:00 PM
and this should not be happening, subs are not crabs.
It shouldn't be happening because the COW and DOW would have his watchstandards for breakfast! :rotfl: :rotfl:
LuftWolf
03-11-06, 04:01 PM
I suspect it's relationship to the prop is irrelevant, only its location relative to the axis of rotation when the sub pitches down... in other words, I have to make the triangle flatter. ;)
I suspect it's relationship to the prop is irrelevant, only its location relative to the axis of rotation when the sub pitches down... in other words, I have to make the triangle flatter. ;)
Broke my TA (Seawolf) again tonight while rising. :(
And when I extended my port TA, it too broke.
LuftWolf
03-11-06, 07:17 PM
Ok, so I'm not going to adjust the TA on the Akula, everyone is just going go have to be aware that it is rather fragile. :)
GunnersMate
03-11-06, 07:46 PM
How about the floating wire too? :up:
Qppralke
03-11-06, 07:57 PM
Maybe it would be better to move it just couple of meters after the sub, but leave it in the same place ?
goldorak
03-11-06, 08:19 PM
I can't believe people are actually against fixing this bug one way or the other :cry:
This has nothing to do with the TA being cut because the sub is going too fast or doing crazy maneuvering, even if you change depth at 2-3 knots the TA is going to be cut.
For one time, just ignore the people critising this crucial bugfix because of a cosmetic issue.
Just play with 3d view disabled and your sense of estetics will not be harmed :-j
Until SCS fixes this in a patch, I urge you Luftwolf to fix it in the 3.0 mod please, please, please.
LuftWolf
03-11-06, 08:51 PM
I've been playing around with this now for some time... and I still have not gotten a single broken TA. :88)
Since the evidence and opinion are not in the clear majority to make the change, I am going to leave it.
That having been said, I can quickly release a hotfix if in the course of the next week or so, if the opinion changes.
Honestly, I haven't been playing the game enough recently to have a meaningful opinion on this. :dead: :-? Although, I hope that changes after tonight. :rock: :arrgh!: :up:
First of all, the wire break has NOTHING to do with its actual placement. The problem is that the sub actually gets reverse speed, and THAT breaks the towed array.
I do not believe that can be fixed in the mod.
A workaround is to increase your speeds a little. If you keep 7-8 knots, and perhaps try to do it in steps (go shallow before go periscope depth) to minimize or even avoid the problem.
LuftWolf
03-12-06, 11:44 AM
First of all, the wire break has NOTHING to do with its actual placement. The problem is that the sub actually gets reverse speed, and THAT breaks the towed array.
I do not believe that can be fixed in the mod.
A workaround is to increase your speeds a little. If you keep 7-8 knots, and perhaps try to do it in steps (go shallow before go periscope depth) to minimize or even avoid the problem.
That's exactly what I have come to think.
goldorak
03-12-06, 12:22 PM
First of all, the wire break has NOTHING to do with its actual placement. The problem is that the sub actually gets reverse speed, and THAT breaks the towed array.
I do not believe that can be fixed in the mod.
A workaround is to increase your speeds a little. If you keep 7-8 knots, and perhaps try to do it in steps (go shallow before go periscope depth) to minimize or even avoid the problem.
If it is so, then lets hope SCS fixes it in the next patch. ;)
I don't use your Mod (yet), but since it's called realism Mod I wouldn't welcome such a change...
Btw, why did the Russians place it over there? :hmm:
Addictionally, IMHO it adds to the realism to have the TA breaking easily :yep:
lw, leave akula TA and ALL TA as is...
whats going on here is these drivers are sitting at 0kts with the TA streamed around the planet .....5 times
then they try to make a change in depth, or accidentally hit E-reverse... the TA snaps like a twig...
no workarounds or repositioning of the TA has nothing to do it..
Its poor ownship control!!
goldorak
03-13-06, 02:46 AM
[cut]
Its poor ownship control!!
Oh please that is just BS :down:
Before stating that people don't know how to drive the akula or the seawolf (I don't think Fish is a newbie on sub and neither am I) try actually to use those subs in multiplayer/single player and without any kind of error on part of the player the TA will be cut.
This is a bug, I will repeat as long as is necessary, as it wasn't present in the previous versions of DW :hulk:
Ill just repeat what luftwolf said .. if he doesnt mind
" I've been playing around with this now for some time... and I still have not gotten a single broken TA. "
correct me if im wrong but I think if this was a bug.. he wouldn't have said this..
i do drive both platforms.. mostly akula.. and no cut TAs, shallow or deep .... since stock to 3.00 official :up:
I now agree that this happens only when sub reaches negative speed during ascent. This happens usualy when you go slow and make steep depth change. Then TA is cut and replacing wont help, becuase there seems to be a shortcut in the simulation: speed<0 then cut TA.
MaHuJa wrote:
First of all, the wire break has NOTHING to do with its actual placement. The problem is that the sub actually gets reverse speed, and THAT breaks the towed array.
I do not believe that can be fixed in the mod.
A workaround is to increase your speeds a little. If you keep 7-8 knots, and perhaps try to do it in steps (go shallow before go periscope depth) to minimize or even avoid the problem.
ownship control = "increase your speeds a little"
GunnersMate
03-13-06, 12:13 PM
Couldn't this be fixed in a patch?
Couldn't this be fixed in a patch?
That's where it will be fixed. (I have faith in that.)
Question is when - June? July?
Couldn't this be fixed in a patch?
That's where it will be fixed. (I have faith in that.)
Question is when - June? July?
welp i can't seem to snap the TA on any TA toting submerged platform.
So, what is there that needs to be fixed?!?!
My settings - all on, autocrew off
maneuvers are made both shallow and deep waters, multiplay/single play
still find it funny how LW claims the same thing (can't break TAs in his own mod)
So somebody give me a test case.... cuz i cant break them.....
TLAM Strike
03-13-06, 02:55 PM
SubBB try this. With the Akula go to max depth, order Snorting depth and hit max time compresson. It may take a few tries but you should see a break around 30 m.
hey man,
TRUST ME when i say id love to try it right now.. cuz im still at work now surfing the net under the radar. also i need to know ownship speed and scope of ta, and are you coming out of a dive, or is ownship leveled out prior to order given?
TLAM Strike
03-13-06, 03:59 PM
I just did it at 5 knots. Level at around 400m. With the TA deployed at full length (700 something m).
No wonder TAs keep snapping they are streamed to maximum scope and @ 5kts ownship speed isn’t fast enough to balance the tension. At this point the TA is basically hung over the stern at 90 degrees at max depth, as ownship rises it maintains this angle. When depth is achieved, stern up 1st then settle, that causes an oscillation in TA, but due to the scope, and slow speed tension is not balanced, thus it snaps.
....like indy jones trying to crack a whip a mile long w/ one hand, instead of 10 feet long w/ two hands. And it seems in game physics it doing it's job just fine.
M.p.o. Dw physics does work and ownship control is what’s making tasty treats out of TA - if DW in-game physics is not your fancy, then lemme suggest turning these settings off. And with these settings off, you may as well dive good ole subcommand.
TLAM, I’ve yet to do that test but I see why now. Then you said 'after a few tries' it would break....
We’ll inconsistencies isn’t a valid sign of a 'bug' the only consistency that remains is....(drumroll)... Ownship control
In-game Physics are as such that if you aren’t careful, you will put ownship into 'washouts'... no more hard rudders and johnny-on-the-spot course changes. Another amazing thing I witnessed is a would-be evading 688 at 35 kts only to be sent into a tailspin by a detonating shkval astern, then left sitting in the water, VERTICAL, with the bow bobbing on the surface like a cork.
sorry ladies/gents.. but the TA bug just doesn't fly in my airspace.
If you are looking for a patch - its under game settings, not future updates.
goldorak
03-13-06, 08:28 PM
@subb : since you are praising the physics model of dw, is it normal that a sub surfaces stern-first ? :roll:
I mean, com'on I give credit where its due, but saying that the TA is cut because we don't know how to control the sub is pure and simple BS.
This is a bug, wether its a consequence of new physics model I don't know.
But what I do know is that subs don't surface with their stern.
So something is broken in the physics modelling.
TLAM Strike
03-13-06, 08:42 PM
TLAM, I’ve yet to do that test but I see why now. Then you said 'after a few tries' it would break....
We’ll inconsistencies isn’t a valid sign of a 'bug' the only consistency that remains is....(drumroll)... Ownship control Well I said "after a few tries" incase you didn't succeed on your first and gave up. I've basicly been able to make it snap on command when I want it to by doing stuff that in the last verson I could do with out any ill effects. Its a bug, trust me. :yep:
@goldorak
according to the polls, seems like 50% also praise the physics model as well.
in DW, technically on a rise, the bow rises 1st (common sense) then stern overshoots, then ownship levels out, go see this for yourself.
And I figured ownship would have been enough, but let me be more specific:
if you rig for max scope - increase ownship speed to prevent ta snap
If you rig for low ownship speed - reduce scope to prevent ta snap
what speeds have you tried at max scope, goldorak?
@TLAM
I’m out the door now and I’m going to try this based on the parameters you gave me earlier.. Like I said, I can’t seem to break them even if I tried.
@tlam
given:
platform: akula2
ownship depth: leveled = 400mtrs - 442mtrs - 560mtrs
speed = 5 kts
scope = 701mtrs (max)
diver order: surface/shallow/deep
water: deep
Attempts: 8
results: TA intacted
----------------
comments:
5kts cruise speed causes TA 701mtrs to level with ownship, so any rapid change in depth when giving dive order shallow/surface seems to be ok
speeds less than 5kts cruise will cause TA to droop, which increases the chances of breaking when giving dive order shallow/surface (simple physics - velocity, drag, resistance)
i think more productive time would have been spent on 'three blind mice' but i digress.. :zzz: HAHAHA (look into it soon) but hey you made the day pass faster for me WOOHOOT :rock:
----------------
@goldorak
welp... like i said i can't break it, I am not convinced(nor is 50% of the poll) convinced there is a TA bug, obviously.
:up:
TLAM Strike
03-13-06, 10:57 PM
Did you try it at max TC? You are patched with the new LWAMI?
TLAM Strike
03-13-06, 11:20 PM
Are you having the problem with the sub pitching downwards when coming shallow at all?
thats just it... its pitching downwards... as it should due to positive velocity from the dive order shallow... bow comes up... stern overshoots (pitches downwards) then levels out.. in-game physics in play..
regarding the TA.. there is TOO MUCH SLACK @ speeds >= 5kts @ 701mtrs
the rapid change in angle(sub leveling out) + at said speed + slack causes the TA to 'whip'
the only thing i can see happening, is at speeds less than 5kts...
at low speeds for a period of time the TA is hung over stern... which exact speed im not sure of, but its common sense. And because of low cruise speeds there isnt ANY SLACK in the TA.. by the time you undergo the same maneuvers (shallow) you bet its going to snap...
its a textbook example man...
sub in search mode at 1-3 kts
TA at max scope - thinking he/shes getting good coverage
no readings at max deep - so change depth to change layers
but have to go shallow to bring 701mtrs of TA to upper layer
then..
*** snap ***
LuftWolf
03-14-06, 01:44 AM
The physics model is pretty close now, but the AI planesman is not good enough to keep up, that's my impression... although the subs STILL seem to blow ballast when ascending, a completely separate and older issue than the bow settling off faster than the stern on a rapid ascent.
If I have a concrete opinion on this other than "stern shouldn't rise, can't get the TA to break with normal maneovering" I'll be sure to let you guys know. :up:
:hmm: how does that ole saying go?
"if it(TA) aint broke.. don't fix it" :rotfl:
The more and more I ponder this braking TA phenomenon…
and the more I fail miserably attempting to snap my own TA…
the MORE other divers I know that ARE FAILING MISERABLY…
on ANY ONE of the 4 platforms…
the more comical I’m finding this &*@! to be.....
I give up ladies/gents....
Bellman
03-14-06, 03:05 AM
:hmm: No big deal - if you have deployed a partial TA ( to the 'S") - haul it in pre-depth change.
I mostly use 'partial' and have'nt experienced breakages other than at high speed.
We're taking a look at this one, sorry about the delay guys. I'll keep you posted.
sonar732
03-14-06, 08:29 PM
:hmm: No big deal - if you have deployed a partial TA ( to the 'S") - haul it in pre-depth change.
I mostly use 'partial' and have'nt experienced breakages other than at high speed.
This is the tactic that I live by. For one, you can implement the use of your TA in shallower waters. :rock: :arrgh!:
LuftWolf
03-14-06, 09:48 PM
Typically I only deploy my TA to full length if I am trying to get triangulation for quick distance estimation on sphere contacts or if I am trying to drag the TA under a layer (a tactic that is critical for success in submarine combat in DW 1.03).
If I am making a turn or depth change, I never leave my TA at farther than half length because it takes longer for the TA to come about and stablize after the manoever.
GunnersMate
03-16-06, 11:07 AM
We're taking a look at this one, sorry about the delay guys. I'll keep you posted.
Hurray! :sunny: :-j
Bellman
03-20-06, 05:10 AM
Like suBB, I have tried all ways **to break my fully extended starboard SW TA, with no joy. :hmm:
** Speeds up to 33 knots with dialled-in depth changes maintaining course. No EB and no reverse. Max depth 440 ft. min 55 ft.
@bellman..... :up:
my good man... try all that you will... i dont think you will break one anytime soon... and make sure you vote in the polls, if you havent done so already..
@goldorak....
you went quiet on us... have you finally stopped snapping TA's... or started playing subcommand (nudge) :)
Wim Libaers
03-20-06, 06:07 PM
There definitely is something strange going on in the sub controls. Have a look at the 3D vie of the sub when reducing depth, sometimes the front planes are even pointed straight down (perpendicular to the main axis of the sub).
Yeah .. this is part of 'drunken planesman' to .. I know .. there had to be some drunken boat desginer too in this case :-)
Yesterday I ALMOST cut TA on seawolf. Was doing 15kts at 1600ft. Ordered 300ft. Speed changed to 20kts and sonars washed out. I ordered 5 kts and for a moment before reaching target depth I was doing 1 kts ! I fastly ordered 2/3. I don't know if it could reach 0 but it was really close.
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