Is "Show Dead Platforms" a "cheat"?

[GunnersMate]

I do have a reason for posting this poll really.

[LuftWolf]

It's a good question. :up: :)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

If by "cheat", you mean anything that decreases the realism - yes. Damage Assessment is an important and challenging part of warfare - thought you killed it? Nah, you did not.

[Kapitan]

i dont like it displayed on the Nav map but if we could detect them then they would make good obsitcles.

[GunnersMate]

Umm... Kapitan bout your sig - hetty should be heady (http://www.answers.com/heady&r=67)

[OneShot]

Considering that you can quickly check the Status screen it can't be considered a cheat - the information is readily available. Hence I don't see it as a cheat.

[Nikita]

Yes! And Status Screen too!

You hear a loud explosion, but if far away is difficult to know if that ship is sunk.

[Ramius]

I'd like to know why people think this is a cheat ?

(so far 2 say yes and 1 yes in mp :hmm: :hmm: )

[TLAM Strike]

Naw, most of the time you can tell when something is killed by looking at DEMON when the target is hit, if the blade lines suddonly vanish its dead.

[Molon Labe]

Considering that you can quickly check the Status screen it can't be considered a cheat - the information is readily available. Hence I don't see it as a cheat.

Just because two cheats are available doesn't mean eithe cheat is not a cheat individually. :doh:

[Molon Labe]

I'd like to know why people think this is a cheat ?

(so far 2 say yes and 1 yes in mp :hmm: :hmm: )

Because it provides you with information directly from truth instead of information derived from sensor data. :down: :nope:

[Fandango]

If by "cheat", you mean anything that decreases the realism - yes. Damage Assessment is an important and challenging part of warfare - thought you killed it? Nah, you did not.

But I'm afraid you can always check that in the mission status... :dead:

[PaulB]

It's flawed, that and the mission status which should only be available post-dive.

[Fandango]

It's flawed, that and the mission status which should only be available post-dive.

I agree with you that it should not be there...it's a too big push for Situation Awareness. SCS should disable that screen when the game is running...or probably there is a configuration command that disables it... :hmm:

[porphy]

We use the sensors to get info in the sim. Should not be different if the platform is dead or alive, and who is this omniscient guy that always can inform us on mission status? ;)

Cheers Porphy

[Zerogreat]

It's flawed, that and the mission status which should only be available post-dive.

I think it was so back in 688(I) .. but i am not sure :)

[PaulB]

Yup, it was so in 688(i). I still play it :ping:

[Molon Labe]

I thought you could always check that sort of thing in the captain's quarters? I'm positive that goal status was displayed, which often sucked becuase avoiding counterdetection was a frequent goal....

[Qppralke]

Same here.

You can always check status screen , and make decision about launching new torps. Sometimes it's a hell up there - and you can get a lock on the contact to see the contact data on the DEMON.

Dead platforms - how is it modelled now ? Do they still disapear after certain time ? I remember in SC dead platforms saved my sub a couple of times - just because torpedoes locked on to them.

I remember I used to look for the wreck after mission using active and Hi Freq.

[Dr.Sid]

They vanish after time .. minutes or so. Would be nice if they could stay for ever.
It would be also nice to be able to put rocks and wrecks in the mission editor to fool active sonar.

[Qppralke]

That's it.

[PaulB]

ML, if you're talking about 688(I), yes, goal status was displayed in the Captain's Quarters indeed. Kills and object launches were not though

[Fearless]

There should be a "Maybe" in the Poll. I can't make a decision whether it is or isn't a cheat.

[Greenwood]

It is a cheat lol Showing Dead platforms is showing something your not supposed to see.

What I would like to see is maybe more sounds coming from sinking and broken up boats - that way we have a non-cheating way of confirming if something is dead or not.

Maybe add some debris in water for some effects.

But the sound of ships breaking up and flooding should be louder so we can pick it up on sonar and confirm the death of units instead of using cheats and mission status - that would be the most realistic. :up:

[MarkShot]

How about looking at the Game Status screen to see what kills are expected and what the goal descriptions are?

Normally, I would stay this stuff and more is cheating, but there are so many missions that you have no chance of winning, since the designer doesn't give you a clue as to what must be done ... that I say "who cares?".

Yesterday, I was playing a mission where you has to:

(1) Approach within a certain range of a non-specific target.

(2) Hold periscope contact with it for over two minutes.

The briefing said "identify the boat carrying terrorist cargo". How was I ever going to know that I needed to do the above?

---

I recently realized something SC/DW missions which are poorly designed suck big time. When I used to play Combat Mission and played poorly designed missions, simply because the scoring system was very basic, even badly designed missions played better than SC/DW badly designed missions.

[Molon Labe]

Bad mission design is no excuse for the sim designers to make Truth information available to players (without having the option to disable it).

[Blacklight]

It IS a cheat:nope: ... and YES I USE IT !!! MUAHAHAHAHAAA !!!!:rock:

I think it's just the fact that I like to rub it in the sinking platform's face while she's going down.

[Imamar]

It is a cheat.ANd i dont use it. I even dont use linked data sometimes. It kills the fun of hunting. :smug:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

It is a cheat.ANd i dont use it. I even dont use linked data sometimes. It kills the fun of hunting. :smug:

On the other hand, you don't get all the info you might get in real life with DW. For example, if you are close to the target, sonar might be able to hear it filling with water, with its bulkheads collapsing and tell you "Yeah, it is probably dead". This option is unavailable in DW, except by using the periscope.

[Stanny]

I voted for "No" option.How "3D view" or "show dead platforms" options can be cheats?The only cheat in both SC and DW is the "Show truth".

Because,when you turn off both auto crewmen and "Show Truth" everything depends on your sonar operational skills only.And there is a situation when you can see only that you are actually able to see due to your sonar operational skills.If you cannot operate the sonar well-you will not see anything sensible.I mean "Show dead platforms" or "3D view" bring very little or completely no help to you during gameplay.

The main idea of the discussed option is just to bring some fun to the very sophisticated,complicated and serious sims.People like admiring their Seawolf class submarines cruising through beautyfull water,like to know that this power is totally under their control.People like to see the results of their skilled engagemets-dead platforms,destroyed by their torpedoes or missiles. :up:

Best regards,
Stan.

[Blacklight]

When I play multiplayer, I always have "Show Dead Platforms" and "Show Truth" turned off completely.
Usually when I play single player, I have them turned off too but occasionally, I have "Show Dead Platforms" on for the hell of it. It depends on my mood.

It is nice to have it turned off and not see exactly how much damage you did till the end of the scenario though. It's like a total mystery until the very end !

[Molon Labe]

I mean "Show dead platforms" or "3D view" bring very little or completely no help to you during gameplay.


Just a few examples off the top of my head: Can let you know whether a long range missile salvo took out an escort.. It identifies the platform destroyed when sonar will usually not provide you with a solid classification, which can give you an idea who is left. It can tell you the location of platforms killed by your teammates or AI which you may have been completely unaware of. All of this information has profound implications on tactical choices that have to be made and cannot be dismissed as "very little" help.

[OneShot]

Warfare, be it Air, Land or Sea is mainly about information ... those who have the information about their enemies numbers, type, whereabouts and so on have the advantage ... if you lack this information you have a serious disadvantage because even in our High Tech world you have to "see" (i.e. know where it is and where it will be when your weapon of choice is there to meet it) something before you can hit it.

Now DW simulates this "information warfare" quite good ... you have most of the toys available that you would use in RL. But you don't have all of them and even those which you can use sometimes dont offer the same high fidelity as their RL counterpart. For example the fact that your Sonar Operator would probably be able to tell you if he hears the sounds of a sub which is sinking (unintentionally) and dead. Or all the other tidbits of info you might get from him (sub has stopped their screw, engines are dead ... whatever).

The walkaround for this shortcomming is in my eyes the option to show "Dead Platforms". To me this is my sonar guy telling me that I just hit the target (or whatever) for good and that I can now concentrate on something else. Thats the only information I get from this option and I don't consider it as a cheat.

Besides ... there is only one way to achieve ultimate realism ... enlist in the navy of your country, do the training and serve on the real deal (be it above or below the waves). Everything else is a simulation and thus always at least one step short of being realistic.

@ML : Everything you have mentioned might be obtained in RL through your own sensors (if a sub is blown up in my neighborhood I hear it, as well as the torps who have brought its demise about) or by other ways of information gathering either in real time or time delayed (Ok, small concession here ... the information which would only be available with a time delay is in this case - meaning as instant information in the game - "unrealistic").

[Molon Labe]

In the case of the long range missile strike, sensor data will certainly not be available. In the others it may be available depending on conditions, but it's up to the player to be gathering that data. Usually information is lacking at the moment the shooting starts, it's not worth risking the boat to get that additional information. Once you've been engaged, it is very difficult to maintain the limited situational awareness that you started with.

EDIT: to be a little more practical I'll get more specific. You're in an FFG, tasked to protect a merchant convoy during wartime. Intel tells you that PRC subs 367 and 368 are out of port and may be in your operating area. You got lucky and found one with the helo and sank it. Where do you look for the next one? If you sank 368, you know the best defense is to collapse, it won't be a threat unless it gets within about 5nm. If you sank 367, you need to patrol away from the merchants aggressively because if it detects you first, you die. There's no way in hell ownship sensors will provide that data for you.

Even the difference between having an Akula-I(i) or an Akula-II around can have a significant effect on asset deployment, again, you're not going to know the difference from ownship sensors, at least not until you get DEMON data or an active fix.

[Stanny]

Can let you know whether a long range missile salvo took out an escort...

Yes it does,but it does not show you how many ships are there within this escort.Still,you have to get down to Sonar and start working to detect or check whether there's anything left in this escort.So,there is a flip side of the coin. :)

[Cyklop]

I don't think this is realistic but I don't see this as a cheat either.
And after all, it's just a game...

[Molon Labe]

Can let you know whether a long range missile salvo took out an escort...
Yes it does,but it does not show you how many ships are there within this escort.Still,you have to get down to Sonar and start working to detect or check whether there's anything left in this escort.So,there is a flip side of the coin. :)

That's not a flip side, it's another variable that may be either known or unknown (you shouldn't assume that it is unknown, that's what tasking/intel messages are for, and there is also the limitation that comes from a limited supply of missions to choose from). And it doesn't matter. What matters is that you have piece of the puzzle that you shouldn't have. Maybe maybe you can put it to good use now, maybe you can put it to good use after getting another peice, but either way you've still cheated to get yourself ahead.

[Stanny]

That's not a flip side, it's another variable that may be either known or unknown (you shouldn't assume that it is unknown, that's what tasking/intel messages are for, and there is also the limitation that comes from a limited supply of missions to choose from). And it doesn't matter. What matters is that you have piece of the puzzle that you shouldn't have. Maybe maybe you can put it to good use now, maybe you can put it to good use after getting another peice, but either way you've still cheated to get yourself ahead.

Anyway,I still think that everything depends on your sonar skills only.And "show dead platforms" is usually a proof of what you already know,if you work professionally at your stations.For example yesterday I picked up a Victor class on a towed array under ice,worked up just a perfect TMA solution and fired two MK-48 ADCAP torpedoes at her (one was set for active,other had passive homing sensor).I knew that Victor had very few chances to survive,as I attacked her at a rather short range.Of course,I brought her down and saw that it was a Victor-III on NAV station as "show dead platforms" was turned on.So,that option just narrowed the narrowband sonar classification,and nothing else. :)

[Imamar]

I don't think this is realistic but I don't see this as a cheat either.
And after all, it's just a game...
Its not a game, its a SIMULATOR... :p

[Captain Nemo]

Dead platforms - how is it modelled now ? Do they still disapear after certain time ? I remember in SC dead platforms saved my sub a couple of times - just because torpedoes locked on to them.

I remember I used to look for the wreck after mission using active and Hi Freq.

Why did Sonalysts make wrecks disappear in DW? Like you I have evaded incorming torps in SC by sailing close to wrecks in shallow waters and also my torps have been pulled off course by wrecks. I am somewhat perplexed why Sonalysts modelled wrecks differently in DW.

Nemo

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Possibly because modeling wrecks takes a small but measurable amount of computer power, and they decided that the extra realism wasn't worth it after a small amount of time. Not saying they are right to do so, but it might be what they're thinking...

[Cyklop]

Its not a game, its a SIMULATOR... :p

Right, I'm sorry to have forgotten this and thank you for pointing this out.
DW is a SIMULATOR which simulates the well known and documented phenomenon of disappearing shipwrecks :-)