Work in Progress-Thermal layers...RELEASED

[HEMISENT]

Guys, ever since the pinpoint drops thread of a couple months ago I've given a good bit of thought to realism for the sake of realism v. realistic behavior. We are never going to get absolute 100% realism the way this game is modelled. The best we can hope for is to modify, edit or tweak different settings in the attempt to give us all a somewhat more realistic, immersive behaviour based on but not limited to historical values. One of the areas that was the subject of a lot of back and forth discussion going back to SHII days was thermal layers.
I'm not getting into the part of whether or not they were charted, measured, able to be defined by the individual commander or even if they were an absolute ironclad way of escaping detection. The point I think we can all agree on is that they existed, they were located at different depths and the wise U Boat commander could use them to help get out of harms way if he was aware that his boat had entered into a thermal layer. At the end of the day they were a random element that could be useful in evading detection.

Thanks to Redwine's words of encouragement for sort of getting me back involved in this. Here's what I've been working on:
Right now using TT's mini tweaker I've edited the settings for all the active and passive sensor lines in the AI_Sensors.dat/Min Height =. By default these are all set at -300
For testing purposes I've set the active(sonar) at -200 and the passive(hydrophone) to -180. Testing this setting in the U 505 mission, once I've gotten the attention of the escorts I CD'd to 160m. The escorts were pinging like crazy making dc runs as normal. I crept down to 180m and noticed the green stealth meter begin to dirty up around 178 and go totally green in the low to mid 180's. If a DD began pinging the meter would instantly go red again.Creeping down to 200m with Escorts pinging the stealth meter again would dirty up just before 200 and continue to flicker until arounf 205m. The DD's continue to drop on the last, known position but eventually lose contact and disperse.After awhile knowing the pinging has ceased because the escorts are leaving I bring the boat back up. The meter stays green as I rise until I ordered ahead flank at around 190m and the meter again goes full red. Once I reduce speed the meter gradually goes back to green.
I've run this with both the U 505 mission + a DD test mission I made. results are identical.

Using the Random folder function in SH3 Commander I've now got a total of 20 random folders. I'm thinking I'll make 5 copies of the AI_Sensors .dat file. Each copy will have the Min Height= settings for active & passive sensors changed. Basically I'll spread the values out. Starting with a shallower "thermal layer" around 90m. the second around 130m, the third around 190m, the fourth around 220 and the fifth very deep at 260 or 270.

I would appreciate some feedback on this + I've got a couple questions for those more knowledgable than myself.
1.Inserting these 5 files in my existing 20 random folders makes the odds of stumbling into a thermal at 4:1. Are these odds too short? should I increase the percentage by increasing the number of random folders?
2.Was active pinging able to pierce the the thermal layer requiring that the Min Height= setting be deeper than the passive hydrophones? Or did the ping bounce off yet still allow some hydrophone detection meaning the active should be set shallower than the passive.
I do not want an absolute detection floor here. I'm looking for a bit of variation.

Also, keep in mind that there are 16 settings involved in both passive(8) & active(8) sound sensors. Some are early war and some are later. Each set can be can be edited differently. . In the above scenario perhaps 3 of 4 DD's has older sensors not able to pierce a 180m thermal but the remaing ship has a later model that will allow a bit deeper detection. The variations are limitles as you the U Boat Commander never knows which tyupe of sensor is fitted to the attacking ships above you.

http://rapidshare.de/files/14129754/Thermal_Layers_Mod.7z.html

SH3 Commander-ready to use

http://rapidshare.de/files/14217696/Random.7z.html

[Axlwolf]

Looks very interesting..sadly i don't use SH3 Commander :cry:
It's not possible to make something similar in the stock game?
Some new destroyer with the same name but different sensor?
Mmmm...maybe it's too much work

[Church SUBSIM]

This is amazing. Simply amazing should you get (and it sounds as if you have) a really stable mod. I'll say it for everyone here .... Thank you!

It is my understanding that the active sonar would bounce but that was determined by range of the contact. The further away the better the chance it would skip off the layer like a rock on water. Passive, dependent on the quality of the sensor, had a better chance of detection through the layer. It has been some time since I read up on that but I will dig up some of my old reffrence books. So my initial thought is passive is deeper....digging through my books.

Wow .... I can not believe how fantastic this mod would be. Once again Sub Commander proves it's a hell of a program. Almost as valuable as a good solid brain ;)

[Axlwolf]

I've made a small research,it seems that the most affected would be the passive sonar.
I'm not expert,but i'm trying to help :-?

[Ishmael]

I spent 6 years as a sonarman in the US Navy. Over that time, I made countless Bathythermograph drops to predict ranges so I'll throw in some of my experience here. Thermal layers exist in any area where the weather warms the surface of the ocean. The actual layer depth will vary by time of day(shallower in early morning, deeper in late afternoon to early evening), as well as time of year and ocean area. Obviously spring & summer months as well as the closer you get to the tropics will increase the depth of the surface duct and make the layer deeper. Also, the warmer the temp, the greater the temp change at layer depth & the sharper the cutoff of sound. The cooler the surface temp, the weaker the layer.

As a general rule of thumb, below layer ranges for both active and passive will be approx. 1/5 of ranges in the surface duct. So if your above layer range is predicted as 5000 yds for active sonar, below layer range will be around 1000 yds or less.

Below the layer a shadow zone is created as the sound is bent two ways, up along the surface duct, and more vertical towards the ocean bottom. Changing a sonar's depression angle can work somewhat, but is not a cure all.

If you're attempting to model this in game, remember winter months and colder latitudes will most often give you a thermocline, a basically unchanged temp profile for depth and, therefore, no layer. I hope this helps you in your research.

[HEMISENT]

After some checking it looks like the active would indeed bounce off a thermal layer yet passive listening might still be possible. Going along with that train of thought I've reversed the settings. My AI_ Sonar setting is shallower and AI_Hydrophone deeper. I've left a seperation of 10-15m between the two just like in the first tests which allows for a bit of variation. Then just to throw in a bit more of a mix I've changed the individual named active & passive settings to varied depths + or - 3 to 5 m. The later war units I've given a bit deeper capabilities and the earlier sensors set a little shallower.
My concern was if I only had 5 Thermal layers in the loop and I ran into say a layer at 260m I knew the exact depth that applied to all sensors. With the variations It now throws a little uncertainty into things. Especially if I've got a damaged boat that's right on the edge.

Just finished plugging all this into Commanders random folders and will see how it works.

[HEMISENT]

Thanks Ishmael.
Dated random modelling may be possible but I would have to run that by Jscones who built Commander I think He's using it in his waves options, different degrees of storms/wave height depending on season. I know that normal date activation is pretty easy. Geographical I know is out of the question. As far as ranges and sonar angles go I haven't a clue how that would be modelled. A lot of guys put in a whole lot of hours on that subject Jungman, Redwine and Caspofungin to name just a few. This gets into the realm of realism v. realistic behavior. Probably about the best we can do here is come up with something like realistic behaviour circa early to mid 1940's.

Semper Fi

[VonHelsching]

:o

Determined people will nevere cease to inspire me...
This is excellent news. :up:

My 2 cents from some reading I've done in optics physics some years ago (should be relevant)

a) Both passive and active will be affected. The originating wave (from the u-boat engine or a ping) will somehow "slpit" in parts, thus making the location of the vertical coordinates of the origin more stochastic
b) Passive will probably be acffected less since the wave has to travel only one way: u-boat engine ---> thermal ---> DD hydrophone
c) Sorar (active) will probably be affected more since the wave has to go back and forth: DD sonar ping ---> thermal ---> u-boat ---> thermal ---> DD sonar

My gut feeling tells me that the sonar signal should be less that 50% accurate from the u-boat engine sound, if both waves had the same instesity, which they don't :damn: . All these, of coure depending on how "solid" is the layer (difference in temperature?)

Anyway, other than my pseudo-scientific soap box, I have a question (and a proposal):

I am preety sure that a solution through SH3cmdr will be found...

As for the geographic attribute being out of the question, this can be partially circumvented (see the "Med" opdion in SH3 random weather generator application)

The question is how the player will know that there is a thermal layer to protect him...

:hmm:

a) Idea #1 a limited cheat-o-meter that functions only when, say. >60 m. depth
b) Far out Idea #2: An external application that reads both the current randomized AI_sensors depth and the current depth of the players -uboat, and reports it in e.g the system tray, or a small transparent icon - after, of course, the player has reached or passed the thermal layer zone...

Anyway, Hemisent you rock :rock:

[HEMISENT]

:o
I am preety sure that a solution through SH3cmdr will be found...
As for the geographic attribute being out of the question, this can be partially circumvented (see the "Med" opdion in SH3 random weather generator application)

Great idea never thought of that another question for Jscones upon his return.

:o
The question is how the player will know that there is a thermal layer to protect him...

The player would not know for sure. Adds to the suspense as in real life the captain might have an idea but not for certain if he stumbled on a protective layer or is something else going on like the DD's sitting, totally shut down and listening while others pretend to leave.???

Is a 1 in 4 chance of stumbling on a thermal layer to much-should it be 1 in 6 or perhaps 1 in 10? Commander will accept addl random folders to lessen the odds

[Rubini]

Hemisent,

A wonderful idea! Can I test too? I'm playing and playing the game in the last days. Maybe i can notice and comment some news in game...:yep:

Rubini.

[HEMISENT]

Hi Rubini.
Right now I am using Caspofungins AI_Sensors.dat file. I'ts working really well giving me the DD & DE behaviour we were all looking for from the pinpoint drops exercise. It is this file that I have modified the Min Height= settings. I have 5 modified versions in the Random folders plus His original/default that I can get to you or I have the 5 modified versions set up to test individually with the mod enabler. Call it Min Height mod 1 thru 5. PM me and let me know which you prefer. Keep in mind that I'm just now starting a fresh campaign mission. I intend to use Gibralter for my test area and enable the individual files one at a time and compare. I hate using single missions for anything other than the most basic of tests as they play differently from campaigns.

It's getting late right now so I'm calling it quits for the night-more tomorrow.

[VonHelsching]

:o
The question is how the player will know that there is a thermal layer to protect him...

The player would not know for sure. Adds to the suspense as in real life the captain might have an idea but not for certain if he stumbled on a protective layer or is something else going on like the DD's sitting, totally shut down and listening while others pretend to leave.???



Are you sure that there was no way to know? Any external sensors on the u-boat?

BTW, this doesn't mean that it had to be true, but in AOTD ( :rock: ) one of the crew would say "Passing a thermal layer, sir"

[Church SUBSIM]

Thought this was a interesting read ....
from (http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/bathythermograph.html)

"The Submarine Bathythermograph"

"Once submerged, a World War II vintage submarine was severely limited in its options. With the exception of the late-war German Type XXI and Type XXIII, capable of a submerged speed of 16 to 18 knots, and the even more sophisticated Japanese I-201 class, which could manage 19 knots submerged, and none of which had any significant effect on the war, World War II submarines were limited to a top underwater speed of 9 to 10 knots. At that, such speeds would quickly drain the batteries, with the result that the effective speed of a submerged fleet submarine was barely three knots.

With these limitations on speed and endurance, a submarine couldn't effectively run away from a pursuer. The only option was to hide, trying to maneuver to avoid being caught in the escort's active sonar.

Research had discovered that water temperature often varied with depth. Even more importantly, the changes in temperature were frequently fairly abrupt, so that the sea water would form layers. It was soon discovered that these thermal layers affected sonar performance. Below a thermal layer, a submarine's active sonar performed poorly when trying to acquire a target. Conversely, a surface ship's sonar pings were reflected and scattered by the layer as well, allowing the submarine to hide beneath it.

The American Submarine Bathythermograph, such as the example here installed aboard U.S.S. Cod, was devised to take advantage of these thermal layers. The bathythermograph recorded a combined depth/temperature trace on a carbon-coated card. As the boat descended, a stylus rubbed off the carbon from top to bottom on the calibrated card. A second control rod moved the stylus laterally as the temperature rose and fell. (This is essentially the same way an Etch-A-Sketch® works, but with a simple automatic system controllng the stylus.)

If the trace shows a relatively straight line from the surface to operating depth, the water is said to be isothermal. This sort of water provides ideal sonar conditions, but isn't very good if you're trying to hide from sonar. A positive (temperature increase with depth) or negative (temperature decreases with depth) temperature gradient provides better conditions for evading enemy sonar. The best conditions are found when the temperature abruptly rises or falls several degrees within a few feet of depth. Getting below such a layer could drastically reduce a submarine's chances of being detected.

One factor that could affect the ability to hide under a layer was the size of the submarine itself. Diving at an angle, it was possible for the bow to be below the layer while the stern had yet to pass below it. If a commander wasn't careful, it was also possible for the upperworks to protrude above the layer.

Temperature layers, and their effect on sonar performance were known in all navies of the period. The United States, with the development of the Submarine Bathythermograph, was simply the only one to create a simple, effective device to exploit it. The rest had to rely on noticing temperature changes on a thermometer."

It sounds to me as if in the '39 - '44ish years they were just learning about this.

and then there is this from the same site....

"Hydrophones, Sonar, and Other Listening Gear"

A number of devices were used both to detect submerged submarines, and to allow those same submarines to locate their targets without having to surface or raise the periscope. The earliest of these devices were hydrophones.
Hydrophones:

Hydrophones are extremely simple in concept. In the most basic form, a microphone is extended through the bottom of the vessel. By rotating the microphone, the sound operator is able to listen for propeller and machinery noises that might indicate the presence of a submarine.

It didn't take long for the engineers to realise that a pair of highly directional microphones, separated by a few feet and able to be rotated at the centre of the connecting bar, would be more efficient than a single microphone. With each microphone feeding into the operator's corresponding earphone, a skilled operator could get a more accurate bearing on the sound source.
jp hydrophones

Between the wars, this concept was developed. The American "JP" submarine hydrophone was a simple, highly-effective design. Essentially, a long iron bar with a coil of wire wrapped around it. The back was covered with a sound attenuating material, so that it was relatively insensitive to sounds coming from the back. This was mounted on a shaft, with a hand wheel in the forward torpedo room that the operator used for training the head. When necessary, the operator could plug the cable into a power source to remagnetize the iron core. (Hard blows can demagnetize magnets, so this type of hydrophone can stop working after a close depth charge detonation until the core is remagnetized.)

The "JP" head was mounted on the upper deck of American fleet submarines. In this position it could pick up the sounds of surface vessels easily, without interfering sounds from within the submarine's own hull. Anti-submarine vessels, of course, mounted their hydrophones below the waterline. When the submarine was surfaced, the the "JP" gear was secured (turned off).

magic eye

One device used to aid the operator in zeroing in on the target bearing was the "magic eye" on his amplifier panel. This was actually a special vacuum tube, with the top sticking out through an opening in the panel. A phosphor coating created a pie-shaped image on the top of the tube. Older people will remember the same sort of device used as a tuning meter on old FM radios. As the signal gets stronger the "pie" gets narrower, until it becomes a line at peak strength. The operator could watch this to augment his own listening skills.

While hydrophones alone could give a bearing on the target, they were severely limited in their capabilities. Range had to be estimated based on things like sound volume, which called for a lot of skill and experience on the part of the operator. Target speed was more easily determined, since the operator could count the revolutions of the submarine's propellers. As long as adequate intelligence was available on the type of target—particularly the propeller pitch—a fairly accurate determination of its speed was possible.

Presuming the target's screws have a pitch of 36" (that is, a single revolution of the screw will move the vessel forward by three feet), if the screw is turning at 100 rpm, the target should travel 300 feet in each minute, or 18,000 feet in an hour. Dividing that figure by 6,076 (the number of feet in a nautical mile), gives a target speed of just under 3 knots. (This isn't particularly fast, obviously, but for most submerged submarines prior to the advent of nuclear power it wasn't particularly slow, either.)

A major limit on the effectiveness of hydrophones was the speed of the vessel on which they were mounted. Anti-submarine escort vessels tended to be relatively slow, often with a top speed on no more than 18 knots. There were two reasons for this. First, the vessels they were escorting were usually even slower, so high speed wasn't needed to keep pace. And, more importantly, the effectiveness of their detection gear diminished rapidly as speed increased. At full speed, the range of a destroyer's hydrophones was so limited that they would probably have to hit a submerged submarine in order to detect it. The noise of the escort's passage through the water created this problem. In fact, for this reason destroyers were not generally used as convoy escorts in World War II once purpose built warships—sloops, corvettes, frigates, or destroyer escorts—became available.
ASDIC (Sonar):

During the First World War, Allied scientists addressed the problem of submarine detection in the hope of finding something more effective than hydrophones. The result of their investigation was called Asdic by the British and Sonar by the Americans. (Asdic is an acronym for Anti Submarine Detection Investigation Committee; Sonar comes from SOund NAvigation and Ranging.)

The simplest form of Asdic combined hydrophones with a sound source. The emitter sent out a sound pulse, which would reflect off the target. The length of time it took for the sound to travel to the target and for the echo to return could be used to calculate the range. This is actually the same principle used by an echo sounder to determine the depth of water.

In the period between the wars, Asdic was sufficiently developed for the British Admiralty to come to believe that it had rendered the submarine impotent as a stealth weapon. It took only a few weeks for them to realize that it was much easier to acquire a target in an exercise (where the A/S vessels knew there would be one around somewhere) than in combat, where the captain of the U-boat was going to do his best to remain undetected.

Of course, anti-submarine forces weren't the only ones using detection gear. Hydrophones were fitted to submarines at an early stage of development. Range was significantly enhanced in a submerged vessel, both because a submarine's electric motors were quieter than a surface ships engines, and because of the elimination of surface noises. By the end of World War II, German hydrophone operators could detect enemy surface ships at ranges of as much as 50 miles.
submarine sonar head

Sonar was a mixed blessing for submarines. It could be used to give an accurate range and bearing on a surface target, but the emitter also provided a bearing for the enemy's A/S forces. (Radar has always suffered from the same blessing/curse syndrome; it warns you that the enemy is coming, but also tells the enemy where you are.) The Sonar head in the picture was part of the Sonar suite on an American fleet submarine, and could be retracted inside the hull when secured.

Pre-war American submarine theorists were so confident of the capabilities of Sonar in submarines that doctrine called for all attacks to be made submerged, using only Sonar, and never exposing the periscope. It was believed that radar had developed sufficiently that exposing the periscope was too great a risk. As it turned out, periscope attacks remained as the primary method, since the Sonar attack methods resulted in too many misses. Also, Japanese warships were slow in adding radar to their equipment, but their escorts proved to have excellent sound gear, so the American Sonar emitters provided a better target than the exposed periscopes. For this reason, the emitters were usually utilized on a single-ping setting for rangefinding, rather than in active searches.

Since a Sonar transducer combines an emitter with a receiver, it could also be used to listen for an escort's Sonar. When this happened, the head could be rotated to get a reciprocal bearing. Escorts generally emitted continuously.

Modern submarine doctrine calls for boats to be equipped with powerful, highly-sophisticated, active sonar, and for that gear to almost never actually be used. Most detection is still accomplished using a modern incarnation of the old hydrophones, though now linked to a suite of electronic gear that gives far more information than the old-time operators were able to obtain just from listening. The equipment is now sophisticated enough that ranges can be determined using passive detection gear, for instance. At the same time, operator skill is still the most important factor. Contrary to what turns up in a lot of techno-thrillers, computers don't do nearly as much in the way of analysis as many people think, and contacts are still identified mainly by the operators based on skill and experience, though that skill is augmented by very sophisticated equipment.

Up through World War II, submarines were mainly used in an anti-shipping role. Initially, the targets were surface warships. Germany recognized the utility of the submarine in the role of a commerce raider early in World War I. That role was developed to its ultimate in World War II, where Germany attempted to use its U-boat force to shut down the convoy routes from the U.S. to Britain. (Though never as successfully as either side suggested.) American submarine forces in the Pacific actually did succeed in the virtual destruction of the Japanese merchant fleet. At least, they were able to do so once the torpedo problems were finally solved after about a year and half of frustration.

Today, the primary target of a submarine is usually another submarine. Hence, the importance of silent operation. The submarine that hears its enemy first will usually be the victor in such an encounter."

[HEMISENT]

Are you sure that there was no way to know? Any external sensors on the u-boat?

BTW, this doesn't mean that it had to be true, but in AOTD ( :rock: ) one of the crew would say "Passing a thermal layer, sir"


Nope, I'm not sure 100% one way or the other. I've read that there were ways of checking temperature and even ways of determining salinity. Of all the books and interviews I've read over the years it seems that there are just as many reports confirming thermal layer detection as there are in denying it. Personally, I like the idea of "stumbling" into a layer by chance. But thats just me.

I never played AOTD but SHII had the same type of message.

All I'm looking for is a way to add a little more immersion and suspense to the game. As far as a thermal layer detector warning device I do not have those kind of skills but I'm sure that some of the modders would have an idea.
First things first tho-more testing.

[Redwine]

Hemisent....... Teacher !! :up: :up:

Backing home from a long travel, and what a surprise !

Let me know if i can help.

I think so it need lot of test, so determine wich sensor is better to "nerf' or make deaf under determined depth, pasive only, active only, or both......

May be the random system may include all posibilities, pasive only, active only, both, and no one, with many diferent setting each one.

To all guys...... plese boys, help and support for Hemisent in this project :up: :up: :up:

[don1reed]

I don't know if this will help, but for sake of reference, let me add this:
The Zentrale constituted the nerve center of a submarine and was manned by its own mix of specialists, most of them Techniker whose performance had earned them the right to this important post. The captain, L.I., and Obersteuermann spent most of their time here or close by as a matter of course. A machinist's mate served as the Zentralemaat (control room mate), whose prime responsibility, assisted byt one or two enlisted men (each designated a Zentralegast), concerned maintaining the boat's trim while submerged, alternately pumping or flooding small amounts of seawater into or out of the trim tanks. This in turn required precise date--daily updated in a separate logbook--on the weight distribution of fuel and foodstuffs on board. Other duties included managing the air supply while submerged (for example, pumping air from the engine room spaces to the more crowded forward torpedo compartment); maintaining the periscopes; and checking underwater salinity and temperature levels.<emphasis mine>

p. 10 NEITHER SHARKS NOR WOLVES by Dr. Timothy P. Mulligan

You are on the right track, HEMISENT, best of luck.

[GT182]

Sounds great HEMISENT, can't wait to see it out. If you need beta testers, sign me up. ;) I'm not using IUB or RUB tho.

[HEMISENT]

First off Thanks for all the positive response and well wishes.
I know that everyone has their own favorite mods so I think everyone will have a different result. My current setup is RUB, HT, Hollywood Damage,NYGM Damage mod. These are the major mods + about 25 additional smaller ones.
The AI_Sensors.dat file is from Caspofungin until 1943 then I use a file that CB came up with for more difficult later war years. Using Sh3 Commander makes switching all these a breeze but it gets very complicated keeping track especially when the random folders come into play-very confusing.
I made a baseline Thermal Layer test today using all settings set at -105 just to see how much variance the game allows.
1941 Gibralter, VIIC, medium seas.
18:00 Ran into a Hunt DD on patrol got his attention and CD'd to 80m.The DD immediately charged right in. The stealth meter is solid red as my boat cruises at 80m. I increase the depth to 100m @ flank, meter still red. DD is at 180deg approxmately 200m . I reduce speed to slow after about 20 sec the meter turns to green.
The DD has dropped a couple of DC's just as he lost contact with my boat.
The hunt sails by my port side. He drops a line of DC's up ahead to my port side and swings hard right and goes active.
18:05 Pinging continues as I descend to 105m (The exact edited depth) The Hunt is now cruising off my starboard side about 500m in the opposite direction, the guage is red but the enemy shows no sign that he has detected us. Stealth meter is flickering red-green-red as the DD lazily heads in our general direction. A star shell is fired lighting the area. SO reports multiple contacts heading our way, obviously the Hunt has called for assistance.
18:12 A second DD arrives on the scene pinging away, The meter is red but no indication we are detected. Down to 111m At this time I've got 2 enemy DD's searching close and a look at the map screen shows 7 addl incoming. Up to now I've really made no attempt to evade and have dived no deeper than 111m The meter is flickering thru the entire range But there is no indication that we have actually been detected.
18:37 Depth 150m I now have 5 DD's hunting me I can hear pinging going on in the distance but the meter is full green. Multiple star shells illuminate the night sky. DD's that are approaching yet still 3000+m away are firing illumination over our heads-very cool!
18:42 a Tribal heads in my general direction and makes a slow drop pretty much on my position-cannot tell if he was targeting my boat or just dropping because he caught a sniff. Lots of pinging, meter is red for the last few minutes but no one is really aggressively targeting my position. I'm now actively attempting to evade.
At this point I'm thinking something isn't right
18:53 Depth 225, SR, meter green-dirty green, 9 DD's all hovering above within a 1500m radius. All lazily milling about yet no aggression
18:58 All searchlights off, DD's start to slowly move away/giving up. I rise to 200m and instantly the meter goes red. 20 seconds later all lights are back on and DD's pick up some kind of scent.
Possibility that there is a sensor somewhere still detecting at -200m.
everything happened like flicking a switch.
Back down to 225m and meter is green.
Located possible problem AI_Sensors .dat AI Hydrophone Min Range somehow got edited to-200. I think this was registering as depth by the AI.
Changed the range setting and all is back to normal. meter is green
I let all the DD's cool down for a while then slowly brought the boat up. Disabled SR. At 120m I hit flank speed and the meter began flickering to red. back to slow and the meter is again green. at 105m the meter is green but any increase in speed dirties up the meter. Therefore it looks like the closer you are to the "ceiling" the less leeway you have. The deeper you go into the layer the more noise is allowed by the game.

Right now after a few test runs my initial impressions are that this will work.
When in or under a "Thermal layer"
1.The variance from the set thermal depth is about 5-8m above and below. Happily the sea state comes into play also.

2. Altho the stealth meter may be solid red it does not mean the boat has been detected.

3 Pinging can be heard when meter is green and there is no detection.

4.Pinging is heard while the meter is red yet still does not mean automatic detection.

5. I do not like having all the AI sensors edited to one depth. Too cut and dried. The variation between active(shallower) and passive(deeper) + the variation between individual named sensors I think is the way to go.

6. I think that the immersion will be greatly enhanced by disabling the stealth meter At that time you'll hear the pinging but not know if you've been detected unlike the way it is now.

Sorry if this is a bit long

[Church SUBSIM]

This sounds great. Great detail too ... helps paint the picture.

Like everyone I am sure we all have "our" set of mods that we can not live without. Because what you are modding is so core to the game I would think a sample of your work and a explaination as to impliment it sent to each mod team out there (RUB, IUB, the guy JonZ, I think and NYGM...sorry if I forgot others) and allow them to incorporate this into their efforts if they use these files ... hell even if not, so for future reffence on their works they have it avialable. To me at least, this would be an essencial mod as it models the effects of sensors as best that can be in the real world.

I never use the noise detector (understand it's essencial for testing) so for me, especially with the random element that you speak of .... would give me chills. All I would know that deep is key ... really deep ;)

[HEMISENT]

Hi Church.
If and it's a big "if" this works out obviously it will be available for anyone to use. Since everyone has their own version of the AI Sensors file I may just end up taking a screen shot of the edited sensors then anyone can plug them into their own personal file using the mini tweaker. That way people can set it for their own personal tastes. Heck, anyone can do it right now for that matter, but that's actually the easy part. Getting the right balance with SH3 Commander might be a bit more involved. So many files get over ridden by other date activated files which get over ridden by random files which get over ridden by dated random files etc, etc. :88)

Anyway, tomorrow is another day.

Cheers!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Great stuff Hemisent. :up: I am glad you took this road.

[HEMISENT]

Update
Another test in a VIIC entering Gibralter. Same paremeters as before for consistency sake. relatively calm seas, fading light. This time I plugged in the deepest settings 260m active/270m passive with the named sensors spread out from 253m down to 275m for some variance

Once again I antagonized the patrolling DD(which happens to be a
Hunt class) with deck gun. Stayed a bit too long on the surface and took
some minor damage to my bow compartments.
The DD was over me in less time than earlier encounters dropping DC's as the boat decended thru 100m, very accurate but did no damage. I
hovered at around 200m to allow for his reinforcements to arrive. The
meter is red pretty much the entire time except when I'm out of his zone. Again I see 5 or 6 addl ships heading in my direction. The Hunt is now setting up for another run and pinging is distant but increasing in
volume which means the Hunt is using his hydrophones while the incoming DD's are going active. What is kind of neat is that I'm hearing pinging yet the meter is solid green (don't know why, never had this before the last couple days). The addl DD's are starting to arrive on scene and I take the boat down to 225m. At this depth at slow speed/SR leaves me with a green meter, increasing speed 1 step starts dirtying up and increasing to ahead std its full red. I reduce back down to ahead slow/no SR.

I know that the Thermal should kick in around 250m My intention is to creep down and observe the enemy behaviour. DD's are pinging away
searching and the meter is flickering more and more as they approach.
We have been detected and DD's are making runs over my general
position, nothing accurate/no worries yet but intensifying. As the boat
creeps below 230m the lights begin to flicker and minor groaning noises
are heard.

240m The DD's are still dropping, nothing too close but still a
concern. What I had not counted on was the hull integrity. The boat is
groaning and creaking, lights flickering more off than on. The stealth meter is dirty green/brown so I know that I'm only a few meters from the
"Thermal". My major concern now is can I creep down a few more meters
to safety. The boat continues to creak, groan and pop, water leaks start in
the conning tower and are immediately extinguished. The never ending
pinging is always present in the background. I tell the SO to be quiet as
I'm only too aware of whats going on above.

250m and the control room is now totally darkened except for the
luminous faces of the guages showing, So far the boat is holding together
as we creep along at 2 kts. I do not have the boat rigged for silent running as I want the repair team to react as soon as possible should they be needed. The stealth meter is more green than brown and I detect a
possibility of getting out of this jam but I am fearful that the boat's hull will not hold out. We're at 250m and slowly leaving the area and those above have no clue.

Guys, this was exactly the immersion I was looking for. Keep in mind
that I knew the "Thermal" existed and what it's perimeters were. I knew at which depth my safety depended. Imagine if I did not have this advance knowledge and that I was not using the stealth meter. My boat was damaged, I had 6 DD's dropping on me with no letup in sight, the only answer was to try for depth and evade. Just at the point where I thought "Just a few meters more and I can make it", The hull gave out and I got squashed like a bug.

Right now I'm confident that the 5 different settings all work well. Now the job is to get them operating in SH3 Commander's random folders.


More later.
Rubini and ChurchSubsim, the test files will go out to you guys tonight.

[malcymalc]

"I don't know if this will help, but for sake of reference, let me add this:
Quote:
The Zentrale constituted the nerve center of a submarine and was manned by its own mix of specialists, most of them Techniker whose performance had earned them the right to this important post. The captain, L.I., and Obersteuermann spent most of their time here or close by as a matter of course. A machinist's mate served as the Zentralemaat (control room mate), whose prime responsibility, assisted byt one or two enlisted men (each designated a Zentralegast), concerned maintaining the boat's trim while submerged, alternately pumping or flooding small amounts of seawater into or out of the trim tanks. This in turn required precise date--daily updated in a separate logbook--on the weight distribution of fuel and foodstuffs on board. Other duties included managing the air supply while submerged (for example, pumping air from the engine room spaces to the more crowded forward torpedo compartment); maintaining the periscopes; and checking underwater salinity and temperature levels.<emphasis mine>

p. 10 NEITHER SHARKS NOR WOLVES by Dr. Timothy P. Mulligan "

UMM yes but that was used for trimming the boat - salinity and temperature affects bouyancy and hence trim.
I seem to recall reading that although commanders had the ability to measure such things there was little recognition they made a difference to detection capabilities - so having the effects but without the announcement is definately the way to in my opinion.

Regards
Malcolm

[VonHelsching]

This mod will change the way some players confront the DDs. One of them is me. I seldom dive deep and stay between 40 and 15m just to make sure I can retaliate (esp. with the homing torpedoes), which is a pretty efficient way in SH3; but I guess not in real life. :down:

Deeper is not safer with stock sh3. With this mod, depth will have a meaning.It should be very interesting to dive as deep as you can, especially if you have damaged hull.

[gdogghenrikson]

Deeper is not safer with stock sh3.
I beg to differ

[Hunterbear]

Excellent work HEMISENT!
:up:
I hope you get this to work in SH3 Commander.

It was exciting to just read the accounts of your tests. Placing the depth deep will definitely discourage my old tactic of running shallow to pop off a few torpedos at the escorts or convoy before trying to run and hide under a cargo ship,hehe. I assume that would also make attacking ports harder since you usually can't dive that deep.

Great news! Looking forward to your continued success and progress with this new mod.

:arrgh!:

[HEMISENT]

Update
Testing the random folders in SH3 Commander. I loaded the 5 Thermal files in Commander and disabled all but the 5 test folder
This guarantees that I will get some thermal layer chosen but which one is anyone's guess.

Testing the same Gibralter scenario.
Test#1 Pursued by 5 DD's. Entered a layer at approximately 85m when meter began flickering. After repeatedly moving above and below 100m to observe behaviour of DD's I determined my safety lay below 120m. Descended and exited the area safely.
paused game and checked the file thru the mini tweaker to confirm Commander chose the 90/105 file

Test#2 Pursued by 6 DD's + 2 PT boats. CD'd to 80m meter red ordered Sr meter is instantly green. Shallow dive to 100m as addl DD's are arriving on site. Meter is flickering for awhile, DD's making DC runs on last known position/no worries .At this time I'm thinking the 90/105 file was chosen again. I descend to slowly to 110m meter is solid green with occasional dirtying up. Increase speed meter changes thru spectrum, back to slow/SR meter returns green. Convinced Thermal is again at 90/105. I order dive to 120m to exit area not really paying attention when close in pinging starts/meter goes instantly red. Turns out one of the late arriving DD's finally arrived on site, caught me with sonar and plastered me with DC's and K guns. Extensive damage resulted/I paused to end game.
I checked the file thru the mini tweaker. Commander chose the 180/200 file that time. Turns out the AI Sensors were just doing their job and I got careless.

Test#3 Same as #1 Commander chose 90/105 file. Exited area safely below 125m but more vigilant this time.

Test#4 Pursued by 7 DD's with another 4 or 5 at long range inbound. I was able this time to penetrate almost due North of Tangier the very beginnings to the straits. The DD's are very aggressive and have driven me deeper and deeper in search of the "Thermal". We've experienced uncounted DC drops and luckily so far the boat has remained untouched.
18:48 As a last resort I order the depth to 250m. The creaking and groaning is more and more prevelant as we descend. Observing the depth guage nearing the mark I notice the stealth meter is more and more lightening up and at 250m /2kts/SR we are solidly green. Pinging is heard but it's having no effect.We have once again found the layer but the question is will the hull hold out long enough for the pursuers above to give up. The boat is silently heading East towards the straits. The best I can hope for is that all the enemy warships will concentrate at one area while we give them the slip.
After 6 or 7 minutes of this depth the hull gives a loud groan, the control room lights flicker and popping noises are heard. "We are taking damage!"
I check the hull integrity and see we are down to 97%. I order a new depth of 240m hoping to relieve the pressure a bit. This helps a little and I once again order the boat to creep higher. At 230m things appear stabilized for awhile. Suddenly close in pinging is heard and the meter instantly shoots to red. Even as I order us back down I watch the activity on the surface and that brief detection has already got some ships speeding up and heading our way.
19:14 We cruise along at 243m the meter is red/brown and we are now at 96%. The DD's are pinging away but even tho they know we are still here no one has an exact fix and there are no DC drops yet.
After about 10 minutes of this I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that it's all over. There are now 11 DD's above within a 2000m radius. Some sitting on the perimeter, others slowly trolling back and forth. The boat is giving up on us even as I write. The hull is down to 90%, the lights are intermittent and the end is near.
19:26 A loud crack reverberates and I immediately order a rapid climb to 200m hoping to at least stay ahead of the integrity guage. The enemy is quick to react and the depth charges are once more heading down.
19:29 We are holding our own at 200m, Integrity down to 77% ....At this time the outcome was pretty much inevitable and I ended the test.

My observations:
Right now I'm convinced Commander is doing it's job. More importantly that I've learned how to make the random file structures work properly.
Using TT's crush depth randomizer sometimes I can dive deep and use the deepest thermal and sometimes I can't-no way of knowing for sure.
This adds to the suspense as the boat is right on the edge at that great depth.
I'm certain that a "Thermal layer detected" message will be detrimental to the whole immersion aspect of it but that's just me.
I noticed that the DD's are giving up the search a bit too soon. I need to play with the Lost contact time= either in Sim.cfg or in Commander Cfg(the randomizer) This may result in an edited Sim.cfg to go along with the individual Thermal Layer random files so that they both come into play when chosen.
Probably within a day or so this will be ready but I'm still unsure whether to release the appropriate files in JSGME format or just post the settings using mini tweaker allowing individuals to retain their personal AI_Sensors.dat files.

Sorry if these updates are a bit long winded.

[Church SUBSIM]

Great news Hemisent! I can't wait for this!

Question for you regarding the use of Sub Commander and the random folder.

If you are in the middle of a patrol and save the game and exit the program. You come back via Sub Commander but do not hit the rollback feature .... Sub Commander still seems to rollback files (the little update text as it is getting ready to launch the game). Since your file set (or actually any that you choose to put in random) are being changed in the midst of a career - does that create a problem?

Thanks!

[HEMISENT]

Church, good question. As I understand it once that particular game/mission is saved the particular files assiciated with it remains. Keep in mind I'm just getting into the random functions here so to make sure I'll fire up a mission and do multiple exits and saves checking the files as I go to confirm. It would make no sense for Commander to change files in the middle of a mission.

[HEMISENT]

Church-good find!
I'm wrong again-I hate when that happens.
Just started a fresh mission to check this out.
Turns out when SH3 Commander loads it chooses a random file. That particular random file stays with that particular mission only until SH3 Commander is loaded again.
Here's what I did:
start mission/paused/check file=-105 setting/saved/no exit
restarted same mission/check file=-105 setting/saved/exit
Launch game thru Commander/paused/check file=-300(default)/saved/exit
Launch game thru Commander/paused/check file=-235 setting/saved/exit
Launch game thru Commander/pause/check file =-200 setting/saved/exit

Actually this works out better as Commander is randomizing each time it starts.
Another question for Jscones.

[HEMISENT]

Church
glad you finally got randoms working as advertised. run a few missions and let me know-intending to release probably sunday/monday

[GT182]

This will a great mod HEMISENT.... we've needed the thermal layers. Now we can hopefully hide better from those pesky attacks when we're doing our job. ;)

Many thanks mate! ~S!~

[HEMISENT]

GT182
Thanks-just finishing the readme-should be out this afternoon.

[VonHelsching]

Cannot wait...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
T__H__ E__R__M__ A__L_______L__A__Y__E__R
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:lurk:

[HEMISENT]

Just put initial version up-see first post.

[Rubini]

Congratulations!!
Great job Hemisent!!! :rock: :rock: :rock:


Rubini.

[Clyde00]

I saw the post about thermal layers and the effect of temperature on them.
You could use the same structure and put them in the SH3Commander dates folder also for a bigger variation. Such as use a 3 month schedule and put the apogee in June, and the perigree in January. For March and September, use a figure that is about one half of the distance from the lowest to highest.

Alot of different combinations can be used.

For instance if you set the dates up like above and leave 2 out of 10 SH3C random folders without the thermal file, you have 2 chances that it will use the dates folders instead of the random ones.

Just some different ideas on it. SH3Commander is one of the nicest programs to randomize most ANYTHING inside SH3. Great idea on the getting us some random "thermal" effects guys! :up:

[Redwine]

Congratulations !

Amazing job :up: i am not user of SH3 Commander, i need to know how it works first.....

Many thanks for effort. :up:

[Church SUBSIM]

Ok,

I am sitting at 240m with a crew that looks shaken, a CE with a wet spot for a groin and 2 Black Swans sitting somewhere above me. In the distance you can hear via the hydro the chaos of a convoy zig zagging.

I had just completed my 2nd attack on a convoy (2 days after inital contact) and this time they got a serious fix on me. All the way from 40 meters to 200 they have been DCing me silly ... now it has been 10 minutes without a DC run and I can hear one of them creeping. I am assuming the other is listening for the one moving. Everyonce in a while I hear his screws .... then he goes silent.

Without a noise meter .... this mod is FANTASTIC.

Am I safe? Am I lucky? Am I good?

Well done Hemisent, well done!

[Spent]

I can't figure out how to install this.


Installation:
Open up SH3 Commander/Random
You will see a number of folders starting with 0, 1, 2, 3 etc.
Open the 0 folder and you will find:
Date/19391201
Open my TL 90-105 folder and place the data folder into the19391201 folder.
You will now have a structure that looks like this:
0/Date/19391201/data/Library/AI_Sensors.dat

I dont have any folder in my date folder except the one that tells what the format should be. so...? :-?

[gdogghenrikson]

I can't figure out how to install this.


Installation:
Open up SH3 Commander/Random
You will see a number of folders starting with 0, 1, 2, 3 etc.
Open the 0 folder and you will find:
Date/19391201
Open my TL 90-105 folder and place the data folder into the19391201 folder.
You will now have a structure that looks like this:
0/Date/19391201/data/Library/AI_Sensors.dat

I dont have any folder in my date folder except the one that tells what the format should be. so...? :-?

same here, some one should release a sh3commander small update patch

[Kpt. Lehmann]

WAY TO GO HEMISENT!!!

Great path you have chosen sir. I have wondered about thermal layers since I first bought SH3.

Thank you for all you do! :up: :up: :up:

[HEMISENT]

I can't figure out how to install this.

I dont have any folder in my date folder except the one that tells what the format should be. so...? :-?

If for whatever reason you do not have folders in the Random file here's what to do:
1.Open Random-There should at least be one folder there, if not create a new folder and name it 0
2.Open 0 folder and create a new folder named Date

3. Open Date folder and create a new folder named 19391201
you should now have a folder structure that looks like this: Random/0/Date/19391201

4. Compress the 0 folder

5. Make 4 additional copies of the 0 folder and number them 1 thru 4
you should now have a Random folder with 5 numbered folders inside 0 thru 4.

This is the basics for plugging in the TL folders. Each of my data folders is inserted into each of the 19391201 folders therefore giving Commander 5 different folders to choose from.

At this point you can start a fresh game using Commander and it will use one of those 5 files giving you a "Thermal Layer". You just will not know at what depth it will be at.

To increase the odds add additional random folders numbered 5 thru 10. 10 folders will give a 2:1 ratio, 20 folders will give roughly a 4:1 ratio, etc, etc.
You do not have to be in port to do.

Hope this helps

[JCWolf]

Sorry bro , i've instaled your thermal mod, and somehow cause i really don't understand what is it, i just din't no how to use it, or how it apears in game man,... :rock:


Can we see this new mod in game, and how? :hmm:


Also , your install instructions are a bit confusing for us that don't know about this stuff to much budy... :up:


How can i know if it's working bro? :hmm:

[slipper]

Could somebody please e - mail me this mod, i cant access rapidshare, ongoing problem, thanks in advance


michael.dibble@ntlworld.com

cheers

[HEMISENT]

Yeah, I know the whole thing is kind of confusing. Most people are not really into how SH3 Commander works and I've only really been playing with it for a couple months. Jscones is a genius for coming up with this but it can be a little intimidating sometimes.
For those who are having problems with the random folder structure I'm packaging a version with 10 Random folders and the TL files will be in the first 5. With this you should just have to copy/paste right into SH3 Commander. Should be up shortly.

[gdogghenrikson]

Yeah, I know the whole thing is kind of confusing. Most people are not really into how SH3 Commander works and I've only really been playing with it for a couple months. Jscones is a genius for coming up with this but it can be a little intimidating sometimes.
For those who are having problems with the random folder structure I'm packaging a version with 10 Random folders and the TL files will be in the first 5. With this you should just have to copy/paste right into SH3 Commander. Should be up shortly.

cool

[HEMISENT]

Ok, see the first post for an SH3 Commander ready folder structure with the TL files already installed. Just open the SH 3 Commander/Random folder and place these inside. 10 Random folders included. The first 5 folders (0 thru 4)are loaded and the remaining empty folders (5 thru 9) are strictly for controlling the odds. Feel free to add or remove empty folders as you wish.
I originally thought that 20 was about right but I'm now testing with only 10 to see the difference in gameplay. Too few Random folders and you'll get some form of "Thermal Layer" almost every time you start the game. Too many random folders and you'll hardly ever run into one. It's all a question of balance.

My apologies if the original instructions were confusing.

[Vonotto]

Just to see if I follow....when I start a patrol it will give me a random thermal depth, ok now is that at the same depth for the entire patrol.....ie: if I find it once can I just go to that depth during my entire patrol to find it??????

OH yes ....also could this be made to work with jones mod enabler?

[Church SUBSIM]

Making any mod you download compatable with the Generic Mod enabler is simple to do. Any mod.....just make a folder Called "XXXX mod" in side that make a folder called data and then from there follow the basic SHIII directory structure.

In regards to your question about the layer always being the same....it will be as long as you are playing from the same saved game. Once you save the game and exit to tend to real life and then come back, using Sub Commander, just roll back and it will randomize the layer again.

[HEMISENT]

[quote="Vonotto"]Just to see if I follow....when I start a patrol it will give me a random thermal depth, ok now is that at the same depth for the entire patrol.....ie: if I find it once can I just go to that depth during my entire patrol to find it??????
quote]

Exactly what Church said. If you exit SHIII and then restart using SH3 Commander the random folder will be reshuffled and you are back to square one. This can work for or against you.
Also, if you are currently hiding in a thermal layer in the process of trying to escape DO NOT SAVE AND EXIT. Chances are that safe depth will be gone on the next restart and you'll be detected.

[VON_CAPO]

Using the Random folder function in SH3 Commander I've now got a total of 20 random folders. I'm thinking I'll make 5 copies of the AI_Sensors .dat file. Each copy will have the Min Height= settings for active & passive sensors changed. Basically I'll spread the values out. Starting with a shallower "thermal layer" around 90m. the second around 130m, the third around 190m, the fourth around 220 and the fifth very deep at 260 or 270.
I would appreciate some feedback on this + I've got a couple questions for those more knowledgable than myself.
1.Inserting these 5 files in my existing 20 random folders makes the odds of stumbling into a thermal at 4:1. Are these odds too short? should I increase the percentage by increasing the number of random folders?
2.Was active pinging able to pierce the the thermal layer requiring that the Min Height= setting be deeper than the passive hydrophones? Or did the ping bounce off yet still allow some hydrophone detection meaning the active should be set shallower than the passive.
I do not want an absolute detection floor here. I'm looking for a bit of variation.

Also, keep in mind that there are 16 settings involved in both passive(8) & active(8) sound sensors. Some are early war and some are later. Each set can be can be edited differently. . In the above scenario perhaps 3 of 4 DD's has older sensors not able to pierce a 180m thermal but the remaing ship has a later model that will allow a bit deeper detection. The variations are limitles as you the U Boat Commander never knows which tyupe of sensor is fitted to the attacking ships above you.

I did not pay attention to this thread because its tittle "Thermal layers" seemed to me, out of reality for a WWII simulator.

But after reading your thesis, I understood the deep implications it has in the gameplay. :o :o :o

Brilliant idea!!! Genius!!! :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

[FullFathomFive]

Does starting SHIII each session via Commander affect the "length" of a "realistic career" (if using that setting in Commander)?

[HEMISENT]

Does starting SHIII each session via Commander affect the "length" of a "realistic career" (if using that setting in Commander)?

Yes, if you have "Realistic Career" checked. See the Commander ReadMe
If you want to determine the number of missions in a career leave it unchecked

[donut]

SHCE. has Bathythermograph,simulated,on Gato boats in 1942.
Good old DOS. Game. (Silent Hunter 1 Comanders Edition) :sunny:

[FullFathomFive]

Thanks, Hemisent. Not being able to use random thermals with the "realistic career" setting is well worth the trade off!

[VonHelsching]

The first 5 folders (0 thru 4)are loaded and the remaining empty folders (5 thru 9) are strictly for controlling the odds. Feel free to add or remove empty folders as you wish.
I originally thought that 20 was about right but I'm now testing with only 10 to see the difference in gameplay. Too few Random folders and you'll get some form of "Thermal Layer" almost every time you start the game. Too many random folders and you'll hardly ever run into one. It's all a question of balance.


Hemisent,

This is something that also troubles me...

What would be closer to being realistic, without spoiling the gameplay?

I'm not much into realism, but on one hand, you would be almost helpless as per the stock game and on the other hand, you would know that you just have to dive deep and you're safe.

In any case, diving deep seemed to be the standard practice, than playing chicken with a DD, as we can do quite easily in SH3.

Anyway, nice work :rock:

VonHelsching

[HEMISENT]

Hi VonHelsching
Unfortunately nothing I've read has given statistics on how often a "Thermal" was actually discovered/used for evasion. I do know that they were not guaranteed to find on every mission.
Right now, after repeated testing using both single and campaign missions
I'm prone to use 10 Random folders in Commander. This gives the player a 2:1 chance that a TL will exist. Using 20 folders as previously thought in theory seemed about right but in practice took forever for Commander to issue one. This is the difference beteen realistic behaviour and trying to be as realistic as possible.
What good is going thru all the trouble to install a mod if you are never going to see a benefit from it?

I think that the players who are at the upper edges of realism will get the most out of this. The mod is intended to be very subtle and requires that the player is very in tune with what's going on around his boat. The stealth meter is the first indicator and the outside view obviously lets you know the behaviour of your enemies above you. Imagine not playing with either one of those options-all you have is the hydrophone as in real life.
At that level of gameplay you are absolutely aware of everything that's going on-if not then you're dead.

I guess when all is said and done I want to be able to look at the clock on my desk and say to myself "Where did the last four hours go to?"
I achieved that on one particular mission using this mod searching for a thermal during my testing. Right then and there I knew I was on to something.

[slipper]

Could somebody please e - mail me this mod, i cant access rapidshare, ongoing problem, thanks in advance


michael.dibble@ntlworld.com

cheers


Bump!

[Church SUBSIM]

@slipper

Here is a link to both files listed on the 1st page of this. This mirror is coming via Filefront. Hope you don't mind Hemisent.

Hemisent's Thermal Layers Mod 1.0 (2 files (regular/Random set up for SC 2.4) (http://files.filefront.com/Hemisents_2_options_for_Therma/;4819823;;/fileinfo.html)

[JCWolf]

Guys this stuff really helps you geting out off enemy claws... :up:


Test it for a couple off missions allready and yeah, on both of them saved mi boat ....and slowlly got out of the place after sinking mi targets... you just have to pay atention to the stealth meter and the pinging sounds, and turn a lot slithly on bot flanks of your boat, also go as deep as you can go, usually i go at 70, 90 metters deep and slowlly get away from the spot... :up:


Brilliante upgrade on the game guys....Thanks for sharing it... :up:

[HEMISENT]

Church
Thank you- I rarely use file front so I'm not really up to speed with their program

jcwolf
Exactly the way it's supposed to work. You've got it.

[JCWolf]

Church
Thank you- I rarely use file front so I'm not really up to speed with their program

jcwolf
Exactly the way it's supposed to work. You've got it.



Man , using your Thermal layers just helps a lote geting away from this above Hunters....


Helped me allready a lote since you've launched your Mod. Thanks HEM.! :up:

Brilliante job bro... :D

[VonHelsching]

Installed and used Thermal Layers Mod.

Although I'm not using the noise-meter, I understood that I was below a thermal layer @ 160 m since I had 6 DDs above me running like there's not tommorow and pinging like crazy; not able to pinpoint me though. It was really great. :up:

[irish1958]

I have two questions about the mod:

1)If I have modified the AI_sensor file in the game, and I use this mod, will this file replace my earlier modified file?

2)If I have, in SH3 Cmdr, other randomized events using folders 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4, will these folders replace my orginal folders? If so, should I just insert the AI_sensor and txt files in my orginal randomized folders?

Confused and tired of getting dumped upon by destoyers.

[Church SUBSIM]

I have two questions about the mod:

1)If I have modified the AI_sensor file in the game, and I use this mod, will this file replace my earlier modified file?

2)If I have, in SH3 Cmdr, other randomized events using folders 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4, will these folders replace my orginal folders? If so, should I just insert the AI_sensor and txt files in my orginal randomized folders?

Confused and tired of getting dumped upon by destoyers.

1) Make a back up of your modified AI_sensor file because each time you load the game via Sub Commander, it is going to take one of the AI_senseor files from this mod that are located in the random folders and overwrite the one that is in the SHIII/data folder. That means that each time you start the game, the AI_sensor file will be diffrent.

2) You would just add these AI_sensor files to your existing random folder structure....

So if you are already using the Random folder feature for images, sounds, songs, ect ... you would set those existing folders up to add the AI_sensor files .... not delete them.

Keep in mind .... if there are say 5 AI_sensor files and you have 10 random folders .... (five folders without a AI file inside) then you have a 50% chance that no customized AI_sensor file will be used, so if you want to play with the odds .... you can simply add more folders.

Hope that helps

[irish1958]

Thanks, Church.
irish1958

[HEMISENT]

Thanks Church-Couldn't have explained it better. The Random function in Commander takes a bit of getting used to. I'm glad to see it's working out ok.

[Samwolf]

I have two questions about the mod:

1)If I have modified the AI_sensor file in the game, and I use this mod, will this file replace my earlier modified file?

2)If I have, in SH3 Cmdr, other randomized events using folders 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4, will these folders replace my orginal folders? If so, should I just insert the AI_sensor and txt files in my orginal randomized folders?

Confused and tired of getting dumped upon by destoyers.

What I did was put copies of the other mod AI_Sensor.dat file into the other 5 "empty" folders so that if an "empty" folder is chosen I get my "other mod" file selected. I don't know if SH# Commander "rolls back" the random files it replaces upon exiting so I went this route to make

[HEMISENT]

So if I understand it you have your own AI_Sensors file(call it default) and you plugged this default file into each of the remaining 5 folders?
Commander is going to choose a random folder upon each fresh startup If one of the "Thermal Layer" folders is not chosen that means that your default random folders will be.

Why not just edit your default AI_Sensors file with mini tweaker, that way your playing with the file you customized for yourself?

[Salvadoreno]

Okay i really dont know if i installed this right.

When i go to SH3Commander/Random/Data there is no 19201 or wutever number in there. But i added them when i downloaded ur mod, then i followed it accordingly. How to i know if it is even working?? I cannot tell. I just attacked a task force hit and damaged a nelson, dived to 50 meters, and nothing... So i cant tell...

[Samwolf]

So if I understand it you have your own AI_Sensors file(call it default) and you plugged this default file into each of the remaining 5 folders?
Commander is going to choose a random folder upon each fresh startup If one of the "Thermal Layer" folders is not chosen that means that your default random folders will be.

Why not just edit your default AI_Sensors file with mini tweaker, that way your playing with the file you customized for yourself?

That's correct, I didn't know for sure if SH3 Commander "reloaded" the original file upon exiting or left whatever random file it put in so I went this route.

I don't know anything about mini-tweaker or what it does. :oops:

[HEMISENT]

Okay i really dont know if i installed this right.

When i go to SH3Commander/Random/Data there is no 19201 or wutever number in there. But i added them when i downloaded ur mod, then i followed it accordingly. How to i know if it is even working?? I cannot tell. I just attacked a task force hit and damaged a nelson, dived to 50 meters, and nothing... So i cant tell...

Did you DL the loaded Random files (update) meant to insert directly to the Commander Random folder or did you DL the 5 seperate folders for manual insertion?

The only way to tell is in the process of attempting to evade at SR you will notice that gradually the DD"s above will lose contact or the stealth meter(if your using it) will begin to fade in and out intermittently. Pinging may still be heard but does not mean absolute detection. This is a very subtle mod and there is no way of absolutely determining beforehand if Commander chose one of the loaded files. I suppose you could cheat and look inside mini tweaker but then where's the suspense. This TL mod is not for everyone and the most immersive gameplay will be felt by those playing at the upper realism levels.

Hope this helps.

[castorp345]

Hemisent, a big :up: to you for your wonderful mod!

i'm wondering though if anyone's gone through and done the leg-work of adjusting the nygm-tw's .dat file to use in place of the modded (and presumed stock ones) in the current release version of the thermal layers? and if so, has it been posted anywhere?

many thanks!

cheers
hc

[Salvadoreno]

hmm. So just right now i was detected running at a task force. I dove 100m and slipped to silent. They pinged for a second.. and then never pinpointed me. But they were looking hard, and i snuck away. Is this in part to thermal layers?? What random folder do u think was chosen?

[JScones]

Good use of the Random folders Hemisent!

Curiously though, why are the folders dated 19391201, and not 19390901? It means there are no thermal layers modelled for the first three months of the war.

From reading this thread I may need to develop a "Random folder user's guide" for modders to follow!

One thing I will point out, although it won't be an issue for most users running SH3Cmdr R2.4 (if anyone's running an earlier release, why?!), is that if you have say 5 random folders with a different version of say SIM.CFG in each, and you then add this mod inclusive of 10 folders, you'll need to consider the impact this will have on the SIM.CFG randomisation. For example...

You start with:
\Random\0\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
\Random\1\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
\Random\2\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
\Random\3\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
\Random\4\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
which copies in a different version of SIM.CFG every time SH3Cmdr is loaded. You then add this mod and end up with:

\Random\0\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
\Random\0\19390901\data\Library\AI_sensors.dat
\Random\1\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
\Random\1\19390901\data\Library\AI_sensors.dat
\Random\2\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
\Random\2\19390901\data\Library\AI_sensors.dat
\Random\3\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
\Random\3\19390901\data\Library\AI_sensors.dat
\Random\4\19390901\data\SIM.CFG
\Random\4\19390901\data\Library\AI_sensors.dat
\Random\5\19390901\
\Random\6\19390901\
\Random\7\19390901\
\Random\8\19390901\
\Random\9\19390901\

This means that now a random number between 0 and 9 will be generated. If say 8 is generated, you won't get an AI_sensors.dat (which is correct), however, you also won't get a SIM.CFG - in other words the stock SH3 SIM.CFG will be used.

This may be OK, but this may also not be OK. To fix this is simply a matter of duplicating your SIM.CFG files into the newly created 5 to 9 Random folders.

Hope this is clear. Anyway, if you have any q's you know where I am! ;)

Not being able to use random thermals with the "realistic career" setting is well worth the trade off!
If you always run SH3 via SH3Cmdr with the "Realistic Career" option checked, running this mod will make no difference to your career length whatsoever.

[HEMISENT]

Jscones
Thanks for looking into this. If I already have a modified Sim.cfg set up as default that will not change correct? The default AI_Sensors.dat will be over ridden by Commander only if it chooses one of the 5 "loaded" files?
I've been running this setup and it works flawlessly so far. Am I missing something?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm currently working on a sabotage mod which will start to occur mid 1944 (normandy invasion) and increase as time goes on towards the end of the war years. Right now I'm thinking this will require probably 20 or 30 random folders. Previous discussions with you have led me to believe Commander can handle this many folders-correct?

Should I PM you?

As far as the 1939 start dates go....oops!

[JScones]

If I already have a modified Sim.cfg set up as default that will not change correct? The default AI_Sensors.dat will be over ridden by Commander only if it chooses one of the 5 "loaded" files?
Correct.

I've been running this setup and it works flawlessly so far. Am I missing something?
Nup. Looks good.

Right now I'm thinking this will require probably 20 or 30 random folders. Previous discussions with you have led me to believe Commander can handle this many folders-correct?
Yup.

What you are doing is spot on, my comments are really for other people that may have utilised the Random folder structure with other mods/ideas. They just need to be mindful of the impact adding extra random folders may have.

[HEMISENT]

What you are doing is spot on, my comments are really for other people that may have utilised the Random folder structure with other mods/ideas. They just need to be mindful of the impact adding extra random folders may have.

So if I do eventually add 20/30 folders for sabotage but still wish to retain the same ratio for existing "Thermals" I need to copy/paste "Thermal" files into the new additions to achieve the desired ratio?

[JScones]

Yup. Otherwise you will only have 5 AI_Sensors.dat files amongst 20/30 random folders - ie a 1 in 4/6 ratio instead of your current 1 in 2.

If you have 20 random folders for your sabotage component, you'll need 10 AI_Sensors.dat files. Just duplicate your 0 to 4 AI_Sensors.dat files across folders 5 to 9.

[irish1958]

if I use a mod that has an AI_sensor_dat file in it, such as the NYGM tonnage mod, the new IUB 1.03 mod, or the new Grey Wolf's mod, and I use the random feature, then that means I have deactivated the the AI_sensor file in the above mods. Is this correct?
Since a lot of people are going to be using these new mods, is it possible to have variations for each of these mods?

irish1958

[HEMISENT]

if I use a mod that has an AI_sensor_dat file in it, such as the NYGM tonnage mod, the new IUB 1.03 mod, or the new Grey Wolf's mod, and I use the random feature, then that means I have deactivated the the AI_sensor file in the above mods. Is this correct?
Since a lot of people are going to be using these new mods, is it possible to have variations for each of these mods?

irish1958

Irish1958, You are correct. The default AI_Sensors.dat file supplied in IUB/RUB/TW etc will be over ridden each time Commander chooses a "Loaded" file.

In my original release I included in the readme directions on how to modify your existing AI_Sensors file with Timetravellers Mini Tweaker.
If you are familiar with Mini Tweaker it's pretty simple, time consuming but simple.

DL the Thermal Mod, backup your original default file and make 5 copies, then install the first of the 5 AI_Sensor files, open the file in mini tweaker, take a screen shot & print out each of the required pages.

Once you have printouts of all the settings for 5 different depths then replace your original/default AI_Sensors file and make the required changes. Do this 5 times for 5 different depths. Now you will have the depth settings edited in Your AI_Sensors.dat file. Pull up the original readme. The entire operation start to finish should take about 30-45 minutes.

Unfortunately this is really time consuming and there are so many different versions of this file it would be impossible to provide copies of each and every one.

[JScones]

Hemisent, curiously, what values are changed in AI_Sensors.dat? Would it be a possible solution to have SH3Cmdr write these values on the fly (ie in much the same way that the Destroyer "Lost contact time" is randomised or the seasonal wave heights are applied)?

[HEMISENT]

Hemisent, curiously, what values are changed in AI_Sensors.dat? Would it be a possible solution to have SH3Cmdr write these values on the fly (ie in much the same way that the Destroyer "Lost contact time" is randomised or the seasonal wave heights are applied)?

I honestly do not know what the differences are between the different AI_Sensors files. I am using a file given me by Caspofungin going back to the long pinpoint drop thread of a couple months back. This file has worked well for me delivering the type of "behaviour" we were all seeking.
Altho once Rubini merges his HT with the Tonnage War I think I'll pull out the AI_Sensors files and compare. Chances are the differences are minor.
(wishful thinking)

As for using Commander to somehow make things a bit easier I'm afraid I do not know all its capabilities and limitations. Writing the desired line items "On the Fly" sounds like a super idea. You mentioned a readme for Commander/Random earlier. I think this would be a great idea except that I'm unsure how many people are actually using it. I personally find it very intriguing but getting your head around all the possibilities and random ratios can be mind boggling escpecially when your dealing with potentially 30-40-50 folders. I get the feeling that there are not a whole lot of us using the random functions and I think it's because it is not fully understood. I've only gotten this far thru trial and error.

Right now the sabotage concept may end up with 40+ folders as I'm finding so many different areas that could possibly cause a boat to malfunction. Writing all these values on the fly would be a Godsend.
I've spent an unreal amount of time on just the VIIC diesel and elect speed breakdowns using mini tweaker for each setting. Back and Forth endlessly.

Any assistance or advice would be greatly appreciated

[VonHelsching]

I honestly do not know what the differences are between the different AI_Sensors files. I am using a file given me by Caspofungin going back to the long pinpoint drop thread of a couple months back. This file has worked well for me delivering the type of "behaviour" we were all seeking.


A little OT, but while working on a personalised version of Advanced Damage, I used a GREAT program called ExamDiff, which is made for examining the differences between text files (freeware version). With the "pro" version you can examine also differences in other file types.

[JScones]

No, I meant what changes do *you* make to the files.

[gouldjg]

HEMISENT and others

you are stars

Your way ahead of me mates,

I think your explorations into the random capabilities are well worth watching and I am keeping a close eye on this thread from now on.

I was planning on returning to the game in a week or two and the first thing in my mind was that we have reached a state where we should add randomness to the game cos us modders work on the mods but then set sail knowing what to expect which kills our own gameplay so we go back to just testing all of the time.

I am after ways of setting unpredictability in the game and this thread is a great reference.

I am just going to read it from scratch and see whats been going on. Are you guys just working on thermal layers or have you got bigger plans?

I do not want to impede on other peoples plans, I would rather sit back or help to be honest.

[VonHelsching]

Any assistance or advice would be greatly appreciated

Hemisent, if you need any help, don't hesitate to PM me. I would like to be part and contribute to this concept.

VonHelsching

[HEMISENT]

No, I meant what changes do *you* make to the files.

AI_Sensors.dat
AI_Hydrophones/ MinHeight=
AI_Sonar/MinHeight=
QGAP, QCIP, QCep MinHeight=
Type 144P MinHeight=
Type 138P MinHeight=
Type 128P MinHeight=
Type 123P MinHeight=

QGAA, QCIA, QCeA MinHeight=
Type 144A MinHeight=
Type 138A MinHeight=
Type 128A MinHeight=
Type 123A MinHeight=

Basically both the AI_Hdrophone & Sonar + all the named active & passives.

I make a complete set for each of the differing depths-5 sets total.
If you pull up my original readme it gives instructions on how to build your own setup. This might give you some idea of the process I went thru. If you could look at it and maybe suggest something easier that would work I would be grateful.

Right now I've run dozens of tests both campaign and single and the entire setup seems to work flawlessly.

[HEMISENT]

HEMISENT and others
I am just going to read it from scratch and see whats been going on. Are you guys just working on thermal layers or have you got bigger plans?


Hi Jason welcome back.
For right now the Thermal mod is done unless Jscones can come up with some ideas about easier implementation with Commander.
right now I'm halfway thru a Sabotage mod once again using Commander's random function.
Starting around mid 1944 (invasion time)thru the end of the war.
Here's a copy of the partially finished readme:

Types VIIC + all Type IX's affected

Systems affected:
Diesel & Elect max speed
Indicative of malfunction or sabotage prohibiting eng or E motors from attaining their maxinum speed potential. Possible sabotage to clutching/transmission components allowing engines/motors to achieve desired RPM but shafts themselves are not turning the correct RPM to produce required speed.

Diesel Range
Indicative of either leaking fuel tanks or engine fuel management system using excessive amounts of diesel to achieve desired performance.

E Motors Range
Indicative of worn out used batteries installed in place of fresh units on refit or sabotage to existing batteries. Batteries are able to charge as normal but do not hold the charge as long as specifications require.

Dive times increased
Simulating faulty or sabotaged valves or manifolds.
Reduced the amount/rate of incoming water required to rid the boat of bouyancy. This increases the standard & crash dive times by 25 - 35%.

I'm working on a couple other things but the above items are already tested and pretty much locked in.

[gouldjg]

HEMISENT

Sounds brilliant, I will be trying both mods out that’s for sure.

I am a few weeks away yet from fully returning

(doing six months for trying to steal a sub from military base to get full personal immersion factor)

Truly

Head deep in last month of studies then will pick game up again. I have big hopes for this summer and can foresee many new developments going on regarding random folders, which for me personally will spring the ultimate life into this game.

For me, this work is the Holy Grail in this game. It can add the missing links to a truly dynamic gameplay we all want.

The more research done the better the effects and even those of us who know certain parts of the game inside out and feel it is predictable may even get new kicks from it.

I can imagine nothing better than getting my rear kicked by uber DD, only to be saved by some variation in the sea level that allows an escape option instead of waiting for the ultimate end.

You get my :up: :up: :up: :up: for all your hard work and I know you are probably testing and testing and tweaking and testing. Salute

[Salvadoreno]

omg i have posted numerous things about system failures and breakdowns and was met with only negative eyes. Modders told me it is impossible to simulate these things because of the hard code. And plus if anything is broke within the sub the crew will fix it automatically, there is no way to achieve these catastrophic failures like diesel breakdowns, tube malfunctions, radar sys failures that real Kaluens delt with. Heminscent if u can do this, i will be forever in debt to you! FOREVER!!!

If u need any help at ALL with this modding project dont hesitate to PM me

[HEMISENT]

omg i have posted numerous things about system failures and breakdowns and was met with only negative eyes. Modders told me it is impossible to simulate these things because of the hard code. And plus if anything is broke within the sub the crew will fix it automatically, there is no way to achieve these catastrophic failures like diesel breakdowns, tube malfunctions, radar sys failures that real Kaluens delt with.


Unfortunately what you just said is true. System breakdowns cannot be duplicated. For example, you leave port at a certain speed say 12 kts and travel to a destination. you submerge for a time then surface and attempt to go back to 12kts and find that you cannot achieve this desired speed because something has "broken"

What I have been able to do is using the similiar scenario you have been travelling at 12kts for the longest time and all of a sudden you require Flank speed and find that you can only go 13 kts. This means that SH3 Commander chose a random file limiting your boat to 13kts from the initial launch, you just haven't had a reason to use Flank speed so you are only now finding out about it. See the difference?
Commander chooses certain "loaded" random files with already pre set limitations. The unkown factor comes into play at the time you find out about it.
Now, here's the downside. Let's say you launch game thru Commander like always. You play out the above scenario. You realize that you are no longer able to achieve anything greater than 13kts so you decide to compensate and continue the patrol. Later on you decide to shut down and continue playing so you save/exit the game. When you "Re-launch" thru Commander you will have a whole new chance at a Random file all over again. This time there may be no problems and Flank speed is working or this time you may find that your using fuel like crazy and you need to begin heading home or you may be limited to just 6kts surfaced and 2kts submerged. A whole new twist.

I probably should start a new thread on this subject since it's getting closer to actually choosing the folder structures.

[Rubini]

HEMISENT wrote
Now, here's the downside. Let's say you launch game thru Commander like always. You play out the above scenario. You realize that you are no longer able to achieve anything greater than 13kts so you decide to compensate and continue the patrol. Later on you decide to shut down and continue playing so you save/exit the game. When you "Re-launch" thru Commander you will have a whole new chance at a Random file all over again. This time there may be no problems and Flank speed is working or this time you may find that your using fuel like crazy and you need to begin heading home or you may be limited to just 6kts surfaced and 2kts submerged. A whole new twist.
-Hemisent this idea is just so good, the issue above isn't a problem. The players who want to use these great idea/mods (Thermal and Sabotage) can be aware that they only will use SH3Cmdr when start a new patrol at port. It's a good way to use boths: SH3Cmdr and yours mods without loose anything!

By the way, have you checked your PM lately?

Rubini.
:hmm:

[ref]

HEMISENT wrote
Now, here's the downside. Let's say you launch game thru Commander like always. You play out the above scenario. You realize that you are no longer able to achieve anything greater than 13kts so you decide to compensate and continue the patrol. Later on you decide to shut down and continue playing so you save/exit the game. When you "Re-launch" thru Commander you will have a whole new chance at a Random file all over again. This time there may be no problems and Flank speed is working or this time you may find that your using fuel like crazy and you need to begin heading home or you may be limited to just 6kts surfaced and 2kts submerged. A whole new twist.

If Jscones can add it to SH3Commander that wouldn't be an issue, just as the program rolls the dice to transfer a crew member only when you are in port, it can randomize the damage, Hemisent I think you really need to keep in touch with Jscones for this :yep:

Ref

[Salvadoreno]

Dont most people play thru there patrols without qutting tho? I mean, if i start a patrol, i usually finish it that same day. I go 1 patrol a day since they take so long, so this wouldnt be a problem for me, i'd stick to the same random folder selected!

[panthercules]

Dont most people play thru there patrols without qutting tho? I mean, if i start a patrol, i usually finish it that same day. I go 1 patrol a day since they take so long, so this wouldnt be a problem for me, i'd stick to the same random folder selected!

I'm not sure about "most people", but I don't think I have ever played out an entire patrol in one sitting. I usually only have a couple of hours to play at any one time, and I'm not in any hurry (I generally stop a few times every game day for hydrophone checks and rarely use TC (and then usually only 2 or 4x TC) after I come into contact with any ships), so it takes me a while to complete the typical patrol. I've been playing a year and have only completed about 30 patrols total between my 3 kaleuns, so I'm averaging almost two weeks IRL per patrol.

Of course, that's factoring in a fair amount of down time during the year working on configuring/adapting mods or waiting in port for some new version or impending mod (like RUB/IUB/NYGM) to come out, and the occasional vacation or crunch time at work, but that's still probably about 1 week per patrol even when playing consistently.

I routinely start every session using SH3 Commander, primarily because I was never really sure what I might be missing out on from SH3 commander if I didn't use it to start while at sea. If you don't really lose out on anything from SH3 Commander by starting without it while at sea, then learning to use it only when starting a patrol would be a small price to pay for being able to make this sort of random damage/failure thing work - BUT, it would seem to run counter to the idea of the thermal layers approach because then (if I understand it correctly) the same thermal layer setting that gets chosen at the beginning of the patrol would remain constant throughout the entire patrol, rather than being randomized and potentially changed every time you start up the game.

[Rubini]

panthercules wrote
BUT, it would seem to run counter to the idea of the thermal layers approach because then (if I understand it correctly) the same thermal layer setting that gets chosen at the beginning of the patrol would remain constant throughout the entire patrol, rather than being randomized and potentially changed every time you start up the game.
-This is true . But in the game, like it's now, you not only have the same for a patrol but for a entire Campaign, you know that. Then even if we only have a change in the beginning of each patrol this will be far better than stock game. :up:

Rubini.

[HEMISENT]

If Jscones can add it to SH3Commander that wouldn't be an issue, just as the program rolls the dice to transfer a crew member only when you are in port, it can randomize the damage, Hemisent I think you really need to keep in touch with Jscones for this :yep:

Ref

Actually, I believe that thought has crossed his mind. Since He was out relocating when I came up with this thing I had only our previous Random discussions to get me started . I think he's just now sort of getting up to speed on what was going on while he was away. Right now as I understand the TL mod is working for those who want to use it. I really hope Jscones can come up with a more simplified way of having Commander choose settings. The problem I can foresee with the Sabotage mod is this; The TL mod requires about 10 random folders to see some benefit. 10 folders is easily managed. The Sabotage concept however may require as many as 40+ folders because there are so many more subsystems that are affected.
40 Random folders is mind boggling in anyone's book and each time I come across a new area that could possibly be edited that increases the total amount of folders required for the desired ratio.

[panthercules]

panthercules wrote
BUT, it would seem to run counter to the idea of the thermal layers approach because then (if I understand it correctly) the same thermal layer setting that gets chosen at the beginning of the patrol would remain constant throughout the entire patrol, rather than being randomized and potentially changed every time you start up the game.
-This is true . But in the game, like it's now, you not only have the same for a patrol but for a entire Campaign, you know that. Then even if we only have a change in the beginning of each patrol this will be far better than stock game. :up:

Rubini.

True - plus, based on my experience so far anyway there probably wouldn't be that many times during the same patrol where I would find myself under attack and needing to try to find the thermal layer to escape, so having it be the same TL setting all during the same patrol would probably not be much a big deal. Also, since it takes me about a week to finish up a patrol, if I get attacked again several days later during the same patrol I'll probably have forgotten where the thermal layer was before anyway :)

[JScones]

If Jscones can add it to SH3Commander that wouldn't be an issue, just as the program rolls the dice to transfer a crew member only when you are in port, it can randomize the damage, Hemisent I think you really need to keep in touch with Jscones for this :yep:

Ref

Actually, I believe that thought has crossed his mind. Since He was out relocating when I came up with this thing I had only our previous Random discussions to get me started . I think he's just now sort of getting up to speed on what was going on while he was away. Right now as I understand the TL mod is working for those who want to use it. I really hope Jscones can come up with a more simplified way of having Commander choose settings. The problem I can foresee with the Sabotage mod is this; The TL mod requires about 10 random folders to see some benefit. 10 folders is easily managed. The Sabotage concept however may require as many as 40+ folders because there are so many more subsystems that are affected.
40 Random folders is mind boggling in anyone's book and each time I come across a new area that could possibly be edited that increases the total amount of folders required for the desired ratio.
Yeah, I think I first got the idea from a conversation you, me and panthercules had quite a while ago. It's taken me this long to really "look into it". But I really want to get into it now - it's on the R2.5 candidate list.

Indeed, in my "What's happening with SH3 Commander?" thread I've asked for some assistance in turning this into reality (I've started with the 'base sabotage' aspect which will flow into the sub 'crippling' aspect). If anyone wants to help out, (hehe especially you Hemisent as you have a lot of good ideas!), please let me know.

Re your TL mod, that can be "included" in SH3Cmdr without the need for any random folders (in exactly the same way as the randomised lost contact time was), and with the paramaters user editable - hence where I was heading with my previous q asking what values you change. To implement into SH3Cmdr, I'd need to know the offset for each entry (I believe this is displayed in TT's tools), the upper/lower boundaries for each entry, and the links between each entry. From reading the above, I take it that 12 entries are independently adjusted?

And yeah, as Rubini states, if anyone really doesn't want re-randomisation mid-patrol, they can simply load SH3 direct and bypass SH3Cmdr - the files that SH3Cmdr originally copied into SH3 will still be there. Of course, this won't work right if the player played an unrelated mission, patrol or career in between.

Personally, I run SH3Cmdr *every* time for pretty much the reason that panthercules has stated - I like that extra feeling of the unknown! ;)

[gouldjg]

Jscones & Hemisent

I think you are going to develop one of the best modding tools ever should this pull off as we all hope it will. I also suspect this tool or similar will be required for other games also in the future. Get it off to the devs

I am two weeks away from rejoining the community and I suspect I will be trying to contribute to this when I re-join.

I must have been typing in the other chaos thread whilst you did this one.

I personally think you and Hemisent should start a new thread for a random beta discussion.

I would probably go as far as to say, consider starting the thread in the modders private forum as I suspect when word gets out, you guys will get spammed like I am doing now. Most of those whom know what to do and how to assist will probably join you in there.

For us in the community, it will be too nail biting watching how things develop.

Either that or expect super long thread with millions of ideas and suggestions

Everyone will be excited about this and I mean everyone,

I don’t think anyone can say they do not like the unknown factor in a simulator, that’s what makes them great.

Good Luck

[HEMISENT]

Jason
I just pm'd Jscones about using Commander to install the Thermal settings.
Hopefully it will mean a much more user friendly way of having these included rather than building folder structures. I also sent him a list of "Sabotaged" systems completed so far.

[Rubini]

panthercules,
JScones,

Another way that the player could maintain all the SH3Cmdr plus the new random TL for every time he meet a battle is to just save the game after a battle and them restart using SH3Cmdr. That is enough for now. This way, in the next time you encounter a battle with DDs you will have a new random TL again and in the same patrol. This only need a minor organization on save and load/restart issue, but it's very easy.

But the best solution will be , of course, if JScones just put this inside the SH3Cmdr. :up:

Rubini.

[VonHelsching]

But the best solution will be , of course, if JScones just put this inside the SH3Cmdr. :up:

Rubini.

Either that, or a seperate application; The equivalent of JSGME for the management of random folders of SH3Cdr.

There are a lot of files that can be randomized (zones.cfg, sensors, .zon files, different sounds etc.) and the management of those files will probably be a hectic job.

[Rubini]

Hemisent,

Check your PM again.

Rubini.

[HEMISENT]

Rubini
The file you requested is on the way

[JScones]

I was thinking last night during the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony (did that actually make sense to *anyone*???) about creating an SH3Cmdr module that will allow modders to add any randomisation events that they want. I envisaged the structure to be like:

[FILENAME]
FileType=[B for Binary or T for Text]
ValueType=[I for integer, F for float]
Section=[For text files, the section that the value sits under]
[KeyName if text file, offset if binary file]=[lowerboundaryvalue^upperboundaryvalue]

So, using live examples:

[SIM.CFG]
;Sets Lost Contact Time between 15 and 45 mins
FileType=T
ValueType=I
Section=AI Detection
Lost contact time=15|45

[SCENE.DAT]
;Randomises wave height between 1 and 2 times. 691 is the MaxWaveHeight offset value - obtained from any TT tool
FileType=B
ValueType=I
691=256|480

These are just my initial thoughts - I'm sure the concept will expand as I think of more ways to use it, like allowing text/label randomisation...

To see whether this is worth it, and at the risk of highjacking hemisent's thread (I'll happily start a new one), would people see value with this approach? Ideas for use welcome!

Bugger it, I've started a new thread for this part. Back to your topic now, Hemisent! ;)

[THE_MASK]

Whats going on here .

[JScones]

@Hemisent, I got your PM. See my other thread for response.

[JScones]

OK, I've near completed building the new "Randomisation events" function into SH3Cmdr. It works perfectly for text files.

But now I need some help incorporating the Thermal Layers mod as standard. I need the AI_Sensors.dat file offset values for the changed values, ie the:

AI_Hydrophone MinHeight
AI_Sonar
QGAP
QCIP
QCeP
Type144P
Type138P
Type128P
Type123P
QGAA
QCIA
QCeA
Type147A
Type144A
Type128A
Type123A

labels. Hex or numeric, I don't care. Anyone with one of TT's tools installed able to give them to me?

TIA.

[HEMISENT]

OK, I've near completed building the new "Randomisation events" function into SH3Cmdr. It works perfectly for text files.

But now I need some help incorporating the Thermal Layers mod as standard. I need the AI_Sensors.dat file offset values for the changed values, ie the:

TIA.

Jscones
Are you talking about the alpha numeric code located in the small box upper right of TT's Minitweaker labelled "Displacement" looks like x044d
or the longer code at the bottom labelled "current hex file" looks like 00007a44

Please advise

[JScones]

The Displacement value thanks.

[HEMISENT]

Ok.
For the sake of clarity and because my brain is really fried tonight You need the edited displacement values for each listed AI sensor and I'm assuming you would need those edited values x 5 for the five different depths? If so then this will take a bit of time to put together.

[JScones]

As there's only one file - viz AI_Sensors.dat - there'll only be one set of offsets. They'll be the same for each of the variations.

[JScones]

Hey, can you pls confirm that it is just the MinHeight value that you are changing for each "item"?

If so, I have the offset values.

[HEMISENT]

Hey, can you pls confirm that it is just the MinHeight value that you are changing for each "item"?

If so, I have the offset values.

Yes. The AI_Sensors.dat/MinHeight= settings is the only line that is edited.
As you know each one of the sensors (your list above)has an individual edit and you already have that list.
**Be advised that the number you install after the=is always preceded by a - for negative height. I made this mistake on more than a few files after I got cocky and figured I had the whole thing down pat.**

I was just going to get back to you and let you know that I would get your displacement numbers to you after I finish with my work. Glad you already have them.

On another note I am just finalizing the testing on the Sabotage folder structure-should I hold off or continue with the next step.

[JScones]

@Hemisent:
Thanks - I've added your Thermal Layers mod to the next SH3Cmdr release...

[data\Library\AI_Sensors.dat]
;
;Only MinHeight values are changed
FileType=B
ChooseFrom=10
RndMidPat=1

0_x470=-105 ;AI_Hydrophone
0_x5FC=-90 ;AI_Sonar
0_x784=-105 ;QGAP
0_x90C=-105 ;QClP
0_xA94=-105 ;QCeP
0_xC20=-108 ;Type144P
0_xDAC=-105 ;Type138P
0_xF38=-100 ;Type128P
0_x10C4=-100 ;Type123P
0_x124C=-90 ;QGAA
0_x142B=-88 ;QClA
0_x160A=-93 ;QCeA
0_x17ED=-95 ;Type147A
0_x19D0=-98 ;Type144A
0_x1BB3=-85 ;Type128A
0_x1D96=-88 ;Type123A

1_x470=-150
1_x5FC=-130
1_x784=-145
1_x90C=-155
1_xA94=-145
1_xC20=-150
1_xDAC=-155
1_xF38=-144
1_x10C4=-145
1_x124C=-130
1_x142B=-135
1_x160A=-125
1_x17ED=-135
1_x19D0=-130
1_x1BB3=-128
1_x1D96=-132

2_x470=-180
2_x5FC=-180
2_x784=-200
2_x90C=-195
2_xA94=-195
2_xC20=-215
2_xDAC=-215
2_xF38=-190
2_x10C4=-190
2_x124C=-195
2_x142B=-190
2_x160A=-180
2_x17ED=-200
2_x19D0=-190
2_x1BB3=-180
2_x1D96=-180

3_x470=-235
3_x5FC=-220
3_x784=-238
3_x90C=-235
3_xA94=-230
3_xC20=-235
3_xDAC=-238
3_xF38=-230
3_x10C4=-235
3_x124C=-225
3_x142B=-220
3_x160A=-215
3_x17ED=-228
3_x19D0=-225
3_x1BB3=-218
3_x1D96=-215

4_x470=-270
4_x5FC=-260
4_x784=-275
4_x90C=-270
4_xA94=-268
4_xC20=-275
4_xDAC=-265
4_xF38=-263
4_x10C4=-265
4_x124C=-260
4_x142B=-257
4_x160A=-255
4_x17ED=-263
4_x19D0=-260
4_x1BB3=-255
4_x1D96=-253
Can you pls just double check the values and the ratio (I've kept your 1 in 2 chance of randomisation). Randomisation will also occur mid-patrol. Is this OK?

Also, can you pls do me a small favour and send me a brief one line or so description of the mod, so I can add it to the comments and SH3Cmdr readme.

When I clean it all up a bit, I'll let you know and ask if you'd test it for me just to make sure it's 100% right! gouldjg, let me know if you also want a "play".

[mikaelanderlund]

Hi Jscone,

When do you plan to release your next version?

Mikael

[mikaelanderlund]

Hi Jscone,

When do you plan to release your next version?

Mikael

[JScones]

Well there's still a number of things I want to add, but I may need to bring the release date forward so that NYGM Tonnage War players can benefit from the compatibility fix I added. I'll see where Hemisent is up to with his sabotage/malfunctions mod - as I'd like to include a malfunctions option in the next release if possible - and take it from there.

I also want to ensure that the new "Randomised events" module is stable and functional (albeit not necessarily as powerful as it will eventually be).

[HEMISENT]

Well there's still a number of things I want to add, but I may need to bring the release date forward so that NYGM Tonnage War players can benefit from the compatibility fix I added. I'll see where Hemisent is up to with his sabotage/malfunctions mod - as I'd like to include a malfunctions option in the next release if possible - and take it from there.

I also want to ensure that the new "Randomised events" module is stable and functional (albeit not necessarily as powerful as it will eventually be).

Let me pull my notes and check your numbers-be right back

[HEMISENT]

@Hemisent:
Thanks - I've added your Thermal Layers mod to the next SH3Cmdr release...

Can you pls just double check the values and the ratio (I've kept your 1 in 2 chance of randomisation).
When I clean it all up a bit, I'll let you know and ask if you'd test it for me just to make sure it's 100% right! gouldjg, let me know if you also want a "play".

I've done a bit of fiddling since release and fine tuned a couple values.
could you please change:
2_x5FC=-180 170
2_x1BB3=-180175 early war sensors less efficient
2_x1D96=-180175 early war sensors less efficient

@
Also, can you pls do me a small favour and send me a brief one line or so description of the mod, so I can add it to the comments and SH3Cmdr readme.

"Thermal layers allows the boat to "hide" from enemy active/passive listening devices and will permit the boat to quietly slip away."

@
Randomisation will also occur mid-patrol. Is this OK?
How does mid-patrol work? Is this a new function of Commander? Sounds interesting

BTW Just finished 52 folder structure for Sabotage mod. Gouldjg agrees to help test it next week hopefully if he"s freed up.

[JScones]

How does mid-patrol work? Is this a new function of Commander? Sounds interesting
RndMidPat=1 means that randomisation will occur if player resumes a career mid-patrol.
RndMidPat=0 means that randomisation will only occur when player starts a new patrol (ie is in base).

[HEMISENT]

How does mid-patrol work? Is this a new function of Commander? Sounds interesting
RndMidPat=1 means that randomisation will occur if player resumes a career mid-patrol.
RndMidPat=0 means that randomisation will only occur when player starts a new patrol (ie is in base).

I think randomization mid patrol is the way to go then, I was never comfortable with being stuck with one file for the entire patrol as a "Thermal" could be found at different depths at different locations or not at all - random
I think this also has to be applied to the Sabotage/Malfunction component as well(if it gets that far) Random function needs to take into account the ability for change at different stages of a given patrol for the good as well as the bad.

Another note-since we're crossing over between the Thermal thread and the Sabotage thread should we start a fresh post labelled "Random"or continue only on one of these?

[JScones]

Keep Thermal comments here and Sabotage comments on the Sabotage thread. We'll keep them both out of the "What's happening with SH3 Commander" thread!