Wowh! If they manage to reach that...

[Skybird]

... I bow my head, then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,,1704954,00.html

That'S exactly the reaction I hoped for - but did not dare to say out loud, not wanting to be called an utopist.

[Drebbel]

Hmm, what replacment are the gonna use for plastic, and many medicines, how they gonna fly airplanes ? Just to name a few

[JSLTIGER]

Yeah, but if the world can eliminate burning gasoline in cars, we should have enough to continue making plastics and such for a couple hundred more years, instead of sixty. I can't remember exactly what percentage of oil is used for fuel, but I do know that it's far higher than that used to make plastics. Sweden's got the right idea. If we don't get off of oil soon, the entire world is liable to be in boatloads of trouble.

My beliefs on the matter:
The American economy has not been in such a dire situation since the late 1920's. Americans are spending every penny that they have as soon as they get it, with more than 50% of the populace living paycheck to paycheck, savings are at their lowest levels since just before the Great Depression. The US is producing less and less and relying on services more and more. Our trade deficits are massive, already unsustainable, and only growing. The budget deficit brought on by the war is continuing to grow, and yet the POTUS continues to ask for more funding for current programs and the creation of new ones.

The only reason that Americans have been able to support an economy of the current scale is by tapping into the vast savings created by the lack of consumer products available in World War II. The demand and boom of the 1950s-1970s all resulted from Americans tapping into their savings to buy new goods. When these savings are finally depleted in full and the other nations of the world stop funding our debt, America will be in for a massive economic slide, the likes of which haven't been seen since 1929.

As for america i predict this;

America will be stable for at least another 60 years with ressesions but overly will be stable despite the fall in value of thier currency.
But should america keep going to war i also would say thier currentcy by 2020 will be around $2.00 to £1 which is atleast 20% higher than it is already.

Personally, I don't even think America can make it for another 60 years. Most of the American economy relies on cheap oil. As we get closer to the end of the world's oil supplies (predicted to be anywhere from 2031-2066), the American economy will become increasingly disrupted by the ever-increasing costs of energy. The only potential way to avoid this is for America to get its head out of its ::expletive:: and give up the gasoline-based internal combustion engine and fossil fuel based energy.

In my opinion, the most promising technology is the Generation IV nuclear reactor. Moderated by liquid lead instead of water, it has the advantages of producing Hydrogen (which can be reclaimed for use in fuel cells), and running at 1 ATM pressure instead of the 350 ATM typically used in today's water moderated Generation II and III reactors. When combined with breeder reactors which produce more fissile fuel than is used (currently outlawed in the US, unfortunately), we can stretch our supply of fission-able material from 60 to 500+ years. That should give us enough time to come up with a suitable alternative (i.e. fusion) before we run out of energy entirely.

[Skybird]

Unfortunately, the class of the socalled working poor is exploding in size in Germany as well. A signal that something is seriously going wrong. If you work 11 hours in a shop, then go to a second evening job, a call-center or a drive-in, and work another 5, then come home and have 4 hours left to sleep and then raise again and go to work again, and if this is so and at the end of the month you have not one euro left, then this is kind of betrayal, especially if the social security system is beeing reduced and people are told they should use free money from their income to lay it aside for the days when they are old. More and more poeple do not have any money left to invest into their future security anymore, and the number of jobs with social-insurance are beeing reduced, while the nuber of minor and "mini"jobs without such insurance are growing, and very drastically so. Six years ago we had less than 1.5 million of these. Today it is more than 7 million, tendency rising. this is a desastrous eroding of the fundament of both the economy and the social security system. Correcting it was needed, it was too exaggerated for sure. But what is done now is to crack it up completely. at the same time people are told, the money they do not have anymore they should invest in stocks of those economical megaplayers that are responsible for degrading the working contracts and that in Germany since years make record wins, year by year, and expand - and kill jobs by the hundreds of thousands nevertheless, all in the name of globalization. When today'S workers are grown old, they will be left with no social insurance, no private money - what should become of them...???

Stockholders are a pleague. The system should be forbidden. a company's primary duty is to do what it is payed for and to take care that those that are working for it get a fair return in form of fair payment, participation in profits, and future perspective. What have stockholders to do with it? They do not help, they do not work, they do not assist, the built nothing with their hands, they produce nothing - they only demand with open hands, and emitts poressue that helps to fire even more employees. Look at stockmarkets: the day one company announces that it is about to fire some hundre or thiusand people - the charts go up.

Make me the lord of the world and give me the unlimited power from above, I immediately would destroy:
1.) all holy sites of all religions
2.) all stockmarkets
3.) and hollywood, in exactly this order. :arrgh!:

As for the topic, I think they will concentrate on traffic beeing able to flow without vehicles needing oil (as Ford originally had planned his cars anyway, btw.). If they could reach that, they are already no more vulnerable from oil from Muslim countries. that would be the biggest win for a western country since the defeat of the Nazis.

[STEED]

... I bow my head, then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,,1704954,00.html

That'S exactly the reaction I hoped for - but did not dare to say out loud, not wanting to be called an utopist.


From the link - The Swedish government is working with carmakers Saab and Volvo to develop cars and lorries that burn ethanol and other biofuels

Alcohol and muck :doh:

[Skybird]

... I bow my head, then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,,1704954,00.html

That'S exactly the reaction I hoped for - but did not dare to say out loud, not wanting to be called an utopist.


From the link - The Swedish government is working with carmakers Saab and Volvo to develop cars and lorries that burn ethanol and other biofuels

Alcohol and muck :doh:

The technology already is there, Germany, Switzerland and Austria have comprabale models. Even heavy construction vehicles and caterpillars, cranes. Currently they do not have the endurance like oil-based pendants, but they can come up with comparable power.

Even Germann Leopard II was designed with a 1500 PS Diesel - which in case of emergency also can operate by using vegetable oil. It was a requested design feature.

Ford wanted to construct cars burning ethanol from the evry beginning. But at that time they had the prohibition, so producing large ammounts of alcohol was not considered to be a clever idea. So they redesigned the motors to burn oil instead.

Some poeple's obsession with having as much hp as possible is not constructive. That oil-engine's performance cannot be reached by engines using alternative fuels is a prejudice, because since yeras this argument has been proven wrong. so far the status quo ensures profits for interest circles and industries (oil, cars). That is the only reason why these alternative engines are not already as present on the market as they could be.

[bradclark1]

...- but did not dare to say out loud, not wanting to be called an utopist.

Too late Skybird you were called a utopist a looong time ago. :)

[bradclark1]

Hmm, what replacment are the gonna use for plastic, and many medicines, how they gonna fly airplanes ? Just to name a few

Whats important is that its a beginning. I'm sure they won't hand out death sentences to pilots for using jet fuel. :)

[Catfish]

Hello,
good idea to shift to other technologies - less dependent to other countries, cheap energy - a dream come true.

Burning fossil resources is a waste, apart from pumping the burned gaseous carbon hydroxydes into the air again - without cutting off the detritious cycle of organic matter millions of years ago the world would not have the amount of oxygen it now has.

We should reserve oil for making plastics and medicine like aspirine, not burn it. Hydrogenium has all you need, and production and storing is currently being developed for fuel cells in Germany.

Unfortunately the production of hydrogen is expensive, but if you put some hundred years of development in it (like it was put into refining of oil etc.), it may well replace other energy bearing substances. B.t.w. the production of H with nuclear reactors is much too small for real use.

Fusion is a good idea (if it worked), but remains the problem of the storage of the produced energy.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Iceman]

Make me the lord of the world and give me the unlimited power from above, I immediately would destroy:
1.) all holy sites of all religions
2.) all stockmarkets
3.) and hollywood, in exactly this order. :arrgh!:



Will you ever wake up and quit fantasizing...all your dreams of a peaceful happy world will not come about until it is purified in fire...whatever remains is worthy of life.

But by all means keep dreaming if it pleases you.

First time it was cleansed by water next is FIRE....hope your ready.

[JSLTIGER]

B.t.w. the production of H with nuclear reactors is much too small for real use.

With the current reactors, this is the truth. However, the new proposed Generation IV reactor designs are supposed to produce significantly more Hydrogen than current models.

[TteFAboB]

It says there are 9 million Swedes and that they are advanced in all areas except transportation. It seems the key is how much biomass fuel they can produce from their "massive forests" and the circle is complete, then it's all a matter of time.

[August]

It says there are 9 million Swedes and that they are advanced in all areas except transportation. It seems the key is how much biomass fuel they can produce from their "massive forests" and the circle is complete, then it's all a matter of time.

Assuming of course that their massive forests can be regenerated fast enough to compensate for the increased demand...

[bradclark1]

First time it was cleansed by water next is FIRE....hope your ready.

That must be the nukes right? I'm bulding my bomb shelter now so I'll be ready. :know:

[Spoon 11th]

Sweden is buying that sugarcane ethanol from Brazil.

[Deamon]

Stockholders are a pleague.

I call the stock system cancer of the economy.

Deamon

[Iceman]

First time it was cleansed by water next is FIRE....hope your ready.

That must be the nukes right? I'm bulding my bomb shelter now so I'll be ready. :know:

Lol...

Revelation 6
[15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Bomb shelter ain't gonna hide ya lmao... :rotfl: but as it Clearly sates...You will try to hide....

[Skybird]

Now I know why reports of UFOs have faded out in the news in recent years. They have abducted enough individuals and have taken enough biological samples to reproduce homo sapiens for the galactic zoo, that now they do not need any more samples. Instead they spend their time pressing laserwarpspeed-pedals to triplatinum-metals, winning distance to our planet before God blows up this place and might become aware of their presence and blows them up as well, sicne he's already at it. Because we all know: big boys always prefer the bigger bang of two.

[Scion]

Skybird, Can you please elaborate on why you hate stockholders so much? You also said that they did nothing... they invest an initial capital amount, generating cash for the issuing company...

I work for a stockbroker (but ironically do not hold any stocks, nor have anything to do with them in my duties) and am interested to hear what you think.

[Skybird]

It's simply a difference if I pick up 10000 bucks, buy stocks, then every couple of times stroll by, open my hand and say "pay me!" That single time you place a banking order does not compare to the work that real workers and employees do day in, day out. This does nothing that compares in any way to the work the worker in that company do day in, day out, on a daily basis, with no escape from a life-ruling routine.

Or the real smart guys, that invest hundreds of thousands of their money, and all work they do is shifting their money from one investment font into the other, if they think it is better for their profit, making hundreds of thousands or even millions by that "work". what have they done they deserve that reward for? What have they build? What have they helped to change it for the better? Where have they supported the community. Where did they go beyond selfish interests? - Nothing. All they can show you is a piece of paper with their rights printed on it, and a couple of numbers. That's no work, that's a trick. My sympathy for people who bought stocks like those from the Telekom, and then lost immense money because those values were exaggerated and the stocks fell down an abyss, is limited. In a way it is something like a biblic penalty.

This is no work in a constructive meaning. nothing against not working, I am not on daily work myself currently, but demanding to be payed for that by the life-long effort of others is something I cannot squeeze into my ethical system. I do not want to be payed for not working but being in a position to exploit other people's work.

What's more, companies primary obligation today is to please their stockholders, ignoring the interests of the social community of their hosting nations, and ignoring the existential interest of their employees. Both are treated like dirt - if it is good for stockmarket's values and raises the profits for stockholders. You can read about such examples almost daily in the newspaper. Western nations currently are getting depleted of their existential basis, for the stockholding economy has changed business in a way that more and more people cannot take financial care of their own future or the social basis of their nations, but these nations at the same time must pay for the financial ruins the current changes in economy are leaving behind. the money that was circulating before to support the nation's structures - now has ended up in a few hands of people/institutions that act globally, are beyond being integrated in a national structure, and thus think they have no more moral responsebilities towards those nations and their working people that with their work once have founded the basis for these few people's rise. This is called treachery in my book.

Stockholding is not the same like leasing something for money (a car, a flat, a house, equipment, an ability).

Companies shall not orient their way of doing business to the profit interests of outsiders. Their responsebilities are with those who invest their lifetime and work into these companies, their responsebilities are with the nations that host them, and their communities. But today, economy has turned into a global battlefield much worse than it ever was before. Because it has changed from fighting for profits to a war of annihilating any opposition or rival. Once that has been achieved, the monopole for power is completed, and totally so. Power corrupts. Absolute power leads to total corruption.

Some months ago, an example from Germany, I already have referred to it months ago, but meanwhile the story has seen a new developement.

A German company, Grohe, world market leader in it's field, was bought by some foreign investment group, the family owning it wanted to retreat from business in general. the company was healthy and wrote black number, there were substantial profits. There were plans to expand. Huge black numbers. Not enough for the new investors. They bought it, but only payed a quarter or less of the sum with their own money, the rest with a credit from banks. Which means the selling partys got that money from that credit, but all of a sudden Grohe, healthy and writing black numbers, had immense debts, and needed to put pressure on it's employes for more work and lower wages, to pay for that credit, while the profit of the deal is earned by that investment group and shared by those who came together in that fond. After a minimum of time they sold it a second time, in the same way, by funding the deal with massive credits. They had made their profit, and got out of Dodge immediately. The new debts now were threatening for the life and very own existence of the comapny. It still produced well, led the market, but was aching under the financial burden of debts it was not responsible for. the new investor was a construction company from Amercia, and it's field of interests (building houses) correlated with the products of Grohe, sanitary installations. Nevertheless, the double credit Grohe needed to pay back was too much. The investing company later withdrew, leaving Grohe bancrupt. Hundreds lost their job, the company is braking off currently.

Remember, this was a healthy company, world market leader, black numbers. It's employees had a secured future for their families. Without their fault their work got abused, two investors took over, took away the money these workers have earned, and left their lifework as a bleeding wreck.

german economy just announced a new record in exports for 2005, again, we are world's number one in that. The top thirty companies in Germany, an almost majority of them earns record wins since many years. So much for economical crisis in Germany. Almost all of these companies are killing jobs by the tens of thousands. they even receive subsidies from Brussel for moving their sites to the East. Subsidies the now jobless worker pay for with their taxes. All this in the name of globalization. Which only is pressure by stockmarkets and investors to maximize the profits for anonymous investors who have nothing to do with those they press for the last drops of lifeblood. It may not be criminal by laws, which means only that the laws are questionable, because it surely is criminal in an ethical meaning. and it is thr rule of the day nowadays. And all Western countries are suffering from it.

If „investor“ would mean that someone is investing having an interest in the products of the companies he is investing it, okay, that would not be much a problem, but today “investor” means a party that has interests that has an exclusive fixation on absorbing that companies financial wins only, and taking every measurement needed to maximize these to-be-absorbed-wins for their benefit of the “investors” – and at the disadvantage of those who do the real work .

It's okay to lend something you own for money, if the price is fair and you do not hold a monopole (so that you cannot demand any price you want). Stockholding is something different, it does not compare. For that reason, I never bought stocks although a past friend of my parents, a banker, offered his help with his knowledge. I have convinced my mom, too. She also sold her stocks. We may have lesser money that way, but nevertheless we have enough - and do not exploit the work of people who cannot escape their dependence on their jobs for existential reasons. Feels much better that way. It’s the right way. In our house where several flats are for rent, there is a single woman currently living without paying a rent. We know that she just got divorced, lost her children to her former husband, and also lost her job. She is okay, it is not her fault, I know her. She is no “parasite”, as weak and dependent people today so often and so easily get accused of being. Her situation is desperate. telling her now that she has to leave because she can't pay the rent? I don't do that. I just tell that to illustrate that I am serious on what I said in the paragraphs above. she will recover, and hopefully find a new job, build a fundament for a new existence. Until then I am not the one to give her the last kick to bring her down completely. And that is very different to what many “investors” nowadays would do in my place.

[TteFAboB]

What? Skybird doesn't work full time everyday? Really? Who would've thought of that... :rotfl: