Realism Mod

[stavka5]

Hello,

There is any mod or patch to the 1.03 version to make the numbers/data of DW more real! For example the 35Knots instead of 40 of Seawolf and the 610m Max deep instead of 1000+++ of Seawolf! The sensibility of Akula passive sonar i think it must be improved!

Thanks in advance

With best regards

Tercio Sampaio

[Deathblow]

Your going to have to qualify those beliefs that the SW can only do 35knots :yep: and some believe that because of the steel that the SW is made of, it can actually dive greater than 600m.... they say the same of the Akula because of its double hull.

what's "real" is the submarine world is largely conjective and rumor only, nothing more.... you won't find a mod that has exactly the stats the you endorse, because eveyone draws there own conclusions...

... but to answer your question, the stats of each ship are open for modding for those with the patient and motivation to do so. Look on Bill's Nichols Subguru site for mod tools, http://www.subguru.com/ and the mod section of this site is the best place to put questions.

[BigBadVuk]

I agree with all of the above,i will like just to add that if u think that sensors r not correct or maybe has low sensitivity u can try with LWAMI mode or maybe u just didnt still get the good way to utilise them...lol :up:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I always wonder why is there so much variation in speed and displacements estimates.

Drag increases very fast when you go faster, so if you have the horsepower and even a rough estimate of the hull dimensions and shape, how can the speed estimate vary like 5 or even 10 knots. Maybe 2-3, but 5-10?

Same thing with displacement - you have the draft and the rough hull shape, why do the full displacement for especially the Typhoon vary from 26000 to 40000?

What are the factors that can't be easily known or reasonably assumed and will create such huge differences?

[stavka5]

Hello,

Ok, i know that the true data is classified but if the must confident and official sites says that SW have a speed of 35 and the Max Deep of 610m WHY the DW make it with 40 Knots and almost 2x of max deep !?!?!?!? I understand if it is 700 BUT more than 2x i think it is a cheat of sonalyst to make the americans submarine much better than akula :hulk: it is not right to see in the encyclopedia of the DW in the infos for the seawolf "speed of 35+ Knots (but for the gameplay is 40)" and so on for the max dive.
and i dont think that the passive sonar of the akula is so bad in sensibility like the one that is implemented in DW.

Best regards

Tercio Sampaio

[Sea Demon]

Hi Stavka,

The deepest I've ever gotten the Seawolf is (2000 ft. / 609 meters). At that depth, my crew starts yelling that we're exceeding crush depth. I'm not sure how you got the 1000++meter figure. I can't really speak for the speed, but I've seen some sources that list it as >35 knots. Some of them just say 35 knots. I'm just guessing that it's at least in the ballpark. None of us really know the actual speed of Seawolf or Akula.

Sea Demon

[Dr.Sid]

Aren't you messing feets with meters ? :rotfl:

[stavka5]

I almost time use the akula and see the units in meters! When i tried the seawolf probably i not note/saw the units and probably i messed the units :P

I will try it with more attention :cool:

Thanks very much

Best regards

Tercio Sampaio
P.S.: the LWAMI 1.03b is compatible with 1.03 final version of DW ???

[stavka5]

Hello,

I saw that the LWAMI maker will release a new version of LWAMI to the 1.03 retail version very soon :D

Thanks very much

Best regards

Tercio Sampaio

[Deathblow]

Drag increases very fast when you go faster, so if you have the horsepower and even a rough estimate of the hull dimensions and shape, how can the speed estimate vary like 5 or even 10 knots. Maybe 2-3, but 5-10?

Because "official" horsepower quotes for most submarine nuclear reactors are baloney. No one is really going to reveal the true maximum power output of their subs, just dumbed down numbers. Reactor/transmission design is probably the most guarded aspect of submarine characteristics. Even then, how well that reactor power is converted to useful thrust by the gearing and ultimately the screw effeciency is as guarded as well.

[Deathblow]

Ok, i know that the true data is classified but if the must confident and official sites says that SW have a speed of 35 and the Max Deep of 610m WHY the DW make it with 40 Knots and almost 2x of max deep !?!?!?!? I understand if it is 700 BUT more than 2x i think it is a cheat of sonalyst to make the americans submarine much better than akula :hulk: it is not right to see in the encyclopedia of the DW in the infos for the seawolf "speed of 35+ Knots (but for the gameplay is 40)" and so on for the max dive.
and i dont think that the passive sonar of the akula is so bad in sensibility like the one that is implemented in DW.

I've seen sources that say the a SW can do 45 knots :huh: . Its all conjecture like said. But most agree that there's a reason for the $3 billion price tag of a SW. Its not just fancy bathroom towels..... very very expensive and impressive systems.

ps)some "official" sources put the Akula's top speed at 28knots!!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Because "official" horsepower quotes for most submarine nuclear reactors are baloney.

Won't they do the calcs using the same or similar "official" numbers, though?

Reactor/transmission design is probably the most guarded aspect of submarine characteristics. Even then, how well that reactor power is converted to useful thrust by the gearing and ultimately the screw effeciency is as guarded as well.

Can't they use civilian systems to get some kind of estimate? It won't be very precise, but at high speeds, 100% more power buys you only about 4 knots - so the guys assuming an Akula putts along at 35 knots are saying its overall T/W is over 2x as good as the guys assuming it putts along at 28 knots - so there should be a very wide margin of errror.

[Deathblow]

Won't they do the calcs using the same or similar "official" numbers, though?

Yeah, as far as I know they can, my guess is that they would probably come up with official performance results which are pretty pitiful.... and probably what the navy wants. Heck, if official results are accepted then one could just accept a 20knot LA speed and a 800ft diving depth. What is probably agreed upon the most is that everthing "official" is an underestimate, but how much of an underestimate is the real question. Some even theorize that a nuclear aircraft carrier results are grossly underestimated and that a carrier can actually reach 40knots.

Can't they use civilian systems to get some kind of estimate? It won't be very precise, but at high speeds, 100% more power buys you only about 4 knots - so the guys assuming an Akula putts along at 35 knots are saying its overall T/W is over 2x as good as the guys assuming it putts along at 28 knots - so there should be a very wide margin of errror.

Well, sorta.... that's like using the stats of a 747 engine to estimate the performance of a F22 fighter. Yes they are both jet engine, but are their stats even near the same? Civilan nuke reactor stats really are probably going to tell you even less about navy reactor stats IMHO. Really just how much these engines can really crank out is a mystery. They really are the most secret part of a subs system... ultra super secret

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Reactor/transmission design is probably the most guarded aspect of submarine characteristics. Even then, how well that reactor power is converted to useful thrust by the gearing and ultimately the screw effeciency is as guarded as well.\

Um, yep. rather well guarded. You do not realize it till you are out a few years and can't find ONE real post about it ANYWHERE googled despite all the THOUSANDS of ex-nuke types from the various navies

Can't they use civilian systems to get some kind of estimate?

While they use the same principals of operation there are so many differences in design characteristic that any such comparision is like comparing apples and oranges. Both are fruits, and totally different

It won't be very precise, but at high speeds, 100% more power buys you only about 4 knots - so the guys assuming an Akula putts along at 35 knots are saying its overall T/W is over 2x as good as the guys assuming it putts along at 28 knots - so there should be a very wide margin of errror.

You are up against an a logritmic function with diminishing returns..
To double your speed requires ^4 increase in power. This is with all other factors being consistent. That is a VERY rough number but good enough for the purposes of this discusion.

[sonar732]

Bubblehead...I run into the same arguements about the sonar environment. I finally came to the point of saying...

"I'm sure that the DoD would be very unhappy with SCS giving us too much information on the capabilities of the US's submarine."

[Bubblehead Nuke]

"I'm sure that the DoD would be very unhappy with SCS giving us too much information on the capabilities of the US's submarine."

I hear that the summers in Fort Levingworth are nice. If you are on good behaviour they let you to bag groceries for tips at the base PX.

Unhappiness from the DoD would be LEAST of our worries.

[stavka5]

Hello,

Yes the max deep of SW is allright :P
I didn't saw that for USA subs the deeps is in feet and not meters :oops: I always command akula sub :cool: and are tune to meters unit!

Thanks very much!

With best regards

Tercio Sampaio

[LuftWolf]

Well, I got delayed in finishing up the last database and doctrine changes yesterday so I finished them up this morning... so LWAMI 3.00 is done. :up:

I now have to rewrite a 16 page readme... which is no fun task... and then make my mind up about some last minute things and I will post the new version of LWAMI 3.00 hopefully by the afternoon in Europe.

The good news is that if SCS is able to get a patch out, LWAMI 3.00 should work for that version as well, so no new work. The bad news is that we were unable to fix the torpedo problem with doctrine, there is some kind of problem in the engine itself that needs to be corrected.

Some more good news is that I think the AI will be a bit more challenging and quicker on the draw as far as enemy submarines go, reading that AAR from TLAM in the RSR campaign when he sank six red submarines made me think that he wasn't being challenged enough, so I wanted to help him push himself. :up: :know:

Ok, now to sort through some very dense readme detritus... :88) :stare: :hulk:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I now have to rewrite a 16 page readme... which is no fun task... and then make my mind up about some last minute things and I will post the new version of LWAMI 3.00 hopefully by the afternoon in Europe.

Can't you just put the darn thing up and finish your Readme later? Please?

[Bellman]

Dont agree with the last poster. :down:

Take your time - better to have it right and up to your usual normal excellence.

Come on KS give him a break - he's already been burning the midnight oil reacting to changes.

Good stuff is worth waiting for. :up:

[LuftWolf]

But then people would complain that I didn't provide enough documentation... :88)

And there are a couple of numbers that might fall this way or that... I need to decide. I wouldn't want to change something later and then feel like I shouldn't because some may have an older version of the database.

It will be out soon... sorry for the delay. :)

I really hoped to be able to fix the torpedoes by now... :cry:

[LuftWolf]

If I had a bumper sticker on my ass right now, it'd be "I'd rather be doing anything than writing a readme." :dead: :damn:

Seriously, I'm glad to do it, but after not sleeping two days and leaving my contacts in too long, I feel like I need to take an icepick to my eyes... :|\

[LuftWolf]

Ok, in case I accidently splash a bottle of bleach in my face or otherwise decide to take a nap before this readme is done, so I don't feel like I'm leaving you guys hanging, you can download LWAMI 3.00 PREVIEW at the CADC now!

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13760#post13760

In case I do decide to change something, be sure to download and install the official distribution when I release it. ;) :)

Enjoy! :) :up: :rock:

Cheers,
David

PS Please DO NOT post this file to any other sites, as it IS NOT the official LWAMI 3.00 distribution. Thank you!

[LuftWolf]

Don't worry Bellman, the quality of the product is undiminished. :know:

I alloted just enough time to finish everything I planned for the mod itself and then finish the readme... the time I was going to spend on the readme went to tracking down the new bugs... so the work on the mod itself has been unharmed. :-j

No, I'm not nearly this well organized... :oops: :roll: :lol:

I can dream though... :hmm:

[Bellman]

:D Wow - I'm impressed with your work rate LW. :o :yep:

Get some sleep soon. Thanks for all your beavouring - it is appreciated. :|\ :up: :rock:

Im off to download it now - magic man. :sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

[stavka5]

Dear LuftWolf,

Thanks very much about your dedication and excelent work to our community!

With best regards and wishes

Tercio Sampaio

[Kapitan]

Why cant the perry class and others capsize when ever they get hit the just go down by the bow or stern not roll over :(

[SKeeM]

:rotfl: I know that DW is a simulation, but the fact remains that subs are by far the most secret weapons platforms in the world. Therefor no estimate can be considerd 100% accurate. So it kills me when i see someone challenging the stats used in the game. I know that in the past year there has been a few justifiable challengs about time to change depth or time to deploy and retrive TA. But alot of that came from real life bubble heads who had first hand knowlege. I am sure that most of the crew on a sub never knows how deep they are or how fast they are traveling. And most of all, How good there sensors are. And the ones that really do know are from a rank that would only have been achived because of dedication to service and would not reveal that information just to impress us here. So with that said ill say that I belive the SW probley performs better in RL than the way its modeled in the game. Same goes for the 688. I also belive the Harpoon and TASM are more effective in RL than they are in the game. At the same time I myself dont belive the SS-N-27ASM is as effective in RL as it is in the game. But thats just how i feel. Doesnt mean I am rite. I dont belive the Akula 2 is quiter than a 688 But again thats just MHO. And for sure I cant belive that a noise maker can kill a Torp. But no one really knows the truth to any of this because first off there is no combat data to research. Second this is al closely guarded secrets. Once a friend told me wile he was in the Navy his ship was part of a carrier screening force. He said one day the carrier just took off at high speed. He said the bow of the carrier was almost lifting out of the water and that there was a roosta tail at the stern that was almost as high as the flight deck. Now I never read anything that would suggest a carrier could go that fast. But, Does that mean he was lieing?

[Sub Sailor]

SKeeM;
Sir in no way is this meant to be argumentative. I am a real life bubblehead starting on subs in 1962 until I retired in 1981, been there done that.
Your friend and the Carrier almost doing a "Wheelie", uh did he start it with "This is no sh.." that is how all sea stories start.
I agree with you that I have long questioned the super capabilities of the Akula and it superior sonar. The Akula is quiet but it was never as quiet as the 688 and certainly not the Seawolf class. Until the Japanese company sold the machine that was used to build the screws to the Russians their boats were noisey. Dam I can't remember the company's name right now, I know they ended up taking out many adds in our newspapers "apologizing for the "misunderstanding", it was our own dam fault for giving it to them, Toshiba, I think was the companies name
Decoys are tested so they can decoy torpedoes, but they are far from perfect. The US Navy had subroc, and TSAM, we did away with them they were not that good, now the Harpoon is a good weapon. The Trident UGM-133A is outstanding, probably the best in the world. The TLAM-E well believe me it is going to ruin the other guy's day. The new MK -48 mod 6, well it is an improvement over the Mod 5. It is faster, more accurate, and quieter. The Sonar BQR-15 towed array is on the 688s and Ohio's now. The boats are being fitted with the new TB-29 A and the Navy expects it of improve detection 400-500 percent with it, against quiet subs in a littoral environment.
Crew knowledge, there are no secrets on a sub. There were time that our charts were kept covered because of the nature and location of the spec ops. We often had "riders" all named smith and Jones etc and we were forbidden to ask them about family, weather where they came from etc.
A good Captain will tell his crew as much as they can, a long patrol gets on everyone nerves, so the Skippers I served under kept us informed. In the old days you signed a statement never to reveal anything you did. It was an official document, there must be 1000s of them on file somewhere, I cannot even remember how many I signed. Imagine our surprise when "Blind Man's Bluff" was printed or the stuff Clancy put in SSN and Submarine.
Some of your questions are on the mark, but we knew a lot more than we were suppose to talk about.
But as far as the Akula's superiority over US boats, well you would have to ask the people who put these sims together.
I know we have good sonar and dam good boats and I tracked a lot of Russian Subs during the Cold War. I mean I was on boats the did, and we knew were dong it and why. The missions where there are missile shots, naval maneuvers, well those thing really did happen. Ivy Bells was a real operation that probably provided us with more knowledge about the Russian Navy than any other intelligent operation.
How good are US Boats, look at the safety record-2 lost since 1954-we built and crewed dam good boats.

Respectfully,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

[moose1am]

Hey LuftWolf? First thank you for all you do for the community. I am sure that it's appreciated by other's also.

As far as I am concerned you can take your time and do it right the first time. Get some sleep and you will be able to work more comfortably.

The game will still be here when you wake up and are rested.

Thank you again. I read the manuals and the readme.txt's.



If I had a bumper sticker on my ass right now, it'd be "I'd rather be doing anything than writing a readme." :dead: :damn:

Seriously, I'm glad to do it, but after not sleeping two days and leaving my contacts in too long, I feel like I need to take an icepick to my eyes... :|\

[Bellman]

I endorse those sentiments entirely David. Its done when its done and we appreciate the gargantuan tasks involved.

I'm sure, like all good things, this is well worth waiting for. Thanks for all your and Amizaurs hard work. :|\

[Driftwood]

"This is no sh.." that is how all sea stories start.

Respectfully,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

In the Army, ours started out "No sh.., there I was...." :lol:

[LuftWolf]

Lonewolf

You've got me confused with this guy. :)

http://www.lsi.usp.br/~kofuji/Personal-Stuff/lonewlf2.jpg

[SKeeM]

Hey Sub Sailor

By no means did i try to put down US subs. And by the way much respect to you for your service. I stated that IMHO US subs are far better than they way they are depicted in the game. And my argument was for the guys with the gripes about how real is the game. This subject is equel to religion. Many diffirent belifes on this planet with no real prof who is rite and who is wrong. It comes down to what YOU! are willing to belive. No fault in that. But when 1 person wants to project there belifes over the developers of the game it makes me laugh. My point was that inspite of what I belive the game is great the way it is and is most injoyable. So how could any one man out there belive what he thinks is absault? Thats like putting a Rabi, Priest and a Muslum in the same room. Who would win that argument? And would there be any point to it? They all would walk away feeling the same way they did before they enterd the room. My suggestion is for all to injoy the game the way it is. Flaws like the new Torp control problem are worth bitching about. But bitching about personal peevs based on how one feels about the subject is just wrong. And the funniest thing is a few months ago there were a few threds going asking for malfunctions. And now they exsist and evryone is bitching that the patch is flawed. :damn:

[Sub Sailor]

SkeeM;
I must have done a poor job with my reply, I was in agreement with you. I have found with SC and DW that the US Boats do not live up to what I know them to be. I thought that was a point you were making, and so I agreed with you.
My experience with Russian, Chinese, and other countries subs and surface craft was tracking them. We were able to that very well, but we now know that these navies were unable to really keep track of our subs.
The Russian Navy now admits our subs were their biggest concern, and they credit them with the end of the cold war. Not my words their's.
You questioned whether our boats are modeled correctly in the two sims and I would say something needs to be done with the sonar. I really believe the bow sonar is far less accurate than in real life, We developed towed arrays and we have good one. I have always felt that the sonar in SC and DW is less than actual. I know I can ID a contact a lot faster with the Akula than with our Subs, I don't believe that is accurate.
There is a gentleman, his handle is Sonar and he can tell you how good our boats are. I know for a fact we picked up Russian subs out to 40-50 k yards in good conditions. Some Russian subs-the Alpha- was one noisey SOB, fast but hell you could hear it when it left port.
The Akula and Typhoon was, in my opinon, the quitest boats they made. Once they got the technology from Japan to build screws like ours they imporved. The Han-oh my god- sounded like a junk yard.
Keep writing, that is how we help these sims,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

[LuftWolf]

I know I can ID a contact a lot faster with the Akula than with our Subs, I don't believe that is accurate.

The Pelamida is equal to the TB-16 in terms of sensitivity in the game, and it is less sensitive than TB-23/29.

In the LWAMI Mod, the Akula's Sphere and Hull arrays are less sensitive than 688i or SW, but not as dramatically as reported in some sources because the information does not agree from all sources and it would change the game balance too greatly, in my opinion.

I think the sonars are pretty well set in the Mod in relative terms, perhaps someone else who takes a look at the modded DB sometime could let me know what they think. :)

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

The Pelamida is equal to the TB-16 in terms of sensitivity in the game, and it is less sensitive than TB-23/29.

But there is interface to consider (it was when I started playing that the importance of user interface design hits me). It is simply easier to see the contact as it comes in in FRAZ NB than the A-scope that you have to keep scanning around.

On the other hand, the advantage in sensitivity of US subs is further enhanced in BB simply by the display they use. Win one, lose one. The small problem here is, of course, that NB is used most often to see subs.

In the LWAMI Mod, the Akula's Sphere and Hull arrays are less sensitive than 688i or SW, but not as dramatically as reported in some sources because the information does not agree from all sources and it would change the game balance too greatly, in my opinion.

About 1/3rd sensitivity is what I heard. If +2 NL Threshold = about 4dB, your current setting is correct as far as I know.

[SKeeM]

Sub Sailor

My bad, I belive it was I that misunderstood you :oops: Sometimes I drink too much and my fingers are faster than my mind. :damn: Ill try not to let it happen again.