Sub Ops and depth control

[Sub Sailor]

I hope all of you read this in the manner I mean it. I am a loyal fan of this site and of these sims. I have been playing 688i, FA, SCXIIc and now DW for quite some time. I regularly contribute to this site. I also try to insure all my comments are positive not ill founded attacks and complaints.
There are some problems with DW, I don't know if they can be corrected or not and I have written about them before. I served on Nuclear subs from 1962 to 1981, nuke trained but evetualy became a COB. I do have some real experience in subs.
DW because of the loss of depth control cannot evade torpedoes, evasive tactics are well written in Clancy's SSN, Blue book, Timmy Goo's excellent treatise and other publication. We cannot use them.
A sub must be able to use speed and turning ability to get out of the search cone of an incoming torpedo. There are so many missions that are set up in shallow water, I have built some myself, that if you attempt to evade you crash. Bubblehead Nuke just wrote about going below crush depth, and he is quite correct. I know we are suppose to avoid detections---BUT, if detected you should be able to use your boat's capabilities to try to get out of it. I am not sure why we design so many missions in water so shallow you can barely get the sail under. I don't know how many of you are aware but aircraft can see a submerged sub down to about 200 feet if good water conditions, they are numerous picture around, on is of the USS Swordfish SSN 579 taken in 1964 off Hawaii and we were down 250 feet in excellent conditions, you could see the boat quite clearly. That picture was posted at the periscope stand for quite sometime.
I have read all the post pertaining to this and everyone seems to agree the loss of depth control is caused by hard rudder commands, causing roll , etc., OK but can it be fixed. It was not a problem in other sims, I know DW is more modern. Bubblehead Nuke also pointed out that as an experienced Throttleman on a 688i he will be ordered to crank on turns and the boat will change depth rapidly, another problem with DW.
Please do not take offense to this post, that is not my intent at all, I simply trying to point out problems that prevent it from becoming the best subsim built to date and share my real life experience of submarine operations. I freely admit I don't know how to design a sim and I don't about the "engines" that you experts use, but I know and believe you all strife for accuracy and realism.
I hope this post will be accepted in the spirit I intended it. But if any of you feel the need to ridicule it, talk bad about my Mom or question my heritage OK feel free. I am under the impression that these forums are designed to help are community.

Respectfully,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret) :lurk:

[XabbaRus]

Ron post this over at the SCS forum, you'd get a quicker response also PM Jamie.

http://scs.sonalystsgames.com/phpBB/index.php

[Bellman]

:up: Excellent points Sub Sailor - you have presented formidably the criticisms most of us have just griped about.
The depth change rates and turning characteristics drive me nuts - but I am optimistic SA will have picked up on this.
We are hopefully only hours from finding out. :hmm:

[Driftwood]

It's my understanding that some of these issues have been addressed in the "final" 1.03 patch that's supposed to be out there today.

[Sub Sailor]

I have 1.03 installed and I ran some test. Depth changes are very much improved.
I also ran a series of evasion course changes, seeing as how I been crying about it and you really improved that problem.
Here are my tet using my favorite platform the 688
800 feet 35 knots for all changes
45 degrees average drop 10 feet.
60 degrees 16 feet average drop.
90 degrees average drop is 23 feet.
120 degrees average drop is 30 feet. This one is interesting as it intially rises 2 degrees. Don't know why.
180 dgrees drops an average of 41 feet.

Speed drops about 3-5 knots in hard turns.

You done good guys, all we need do is remember this when we develop shallow water ops and be sure to allow for the drop. In most cases the optimum turn to get out of a torpedo's search cone is 45 degrees and we can live with the 10 foot drop.

Thanks for your work,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret) :lurk:

[Deathblow]

I have 1.03 installed and I ran some test. Depth changes are very much improved.
I also ran a series of evasion course changes, seeing as how I been crying about it and you really improved that problem.
Here are my tet using my favorite platform the 688
800 feet 35 knots for all changes
45 degrees average drop 10 feet.
60 degrees 16 feet average drop.
90 degrees average drop is 23 feet.
120 degrees average drop is 30 feet. This one is interesting as it intially rises 2 degrees. Don't know why.
180 dgrees drops an average of 41 feet.

Speed drops about 3-5 knots in hard turns.

You done good guys, all we need do is remember this when we develop shallow water ops and be sure to allow for the drop. In most cases the optimum turn to get out of a torpedo's search cone is 45 degrees and we can live with the 10 foot drop.

Thanks for your work,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret) :lurk:

This is consistent with what I found for the SW as well doing 40knots. I agree, everything is looking pretty good to me :yep: :up:

[Jamie]

Ron post this over at the SCS forum, you'd get a quicker response also PM Jamie.

http://scs.sonalystsgames.com/phpBB/index.php

No need, I read this forum regularly - I promise, Xabba. ;)


You done good guys, all we need do is remember this when we develop shallow water ops and be sure to allow for the drop. In most cases the optimum turn to get out of a torpedo's search cone is 45 degrees and we can live with the 10 foot drop.

Thanks for your work,

It's a very complex physics model with respect to buoyancy and hydrodynamics so it is always a "work in progress". Hutch is excellent though, and I think he's really made some improvements to DW with many of the changes in v1.03.

Keep the constructive comments coming though, we do appreciate them! :cool:

[Sub Sailor]

XabbaRus;
I did the 2nd post, todays, when I seen 1.03 was out I waited till I tried it to see if things had changed and they had.

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret) :lurk:

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Bubblehead Nuke also pointed out that as an experienced Throttleman on a 688i he will be ordered to crank on turns and the boat will change depth rapidly, another problem with DW

Actually, it was a flight II 688. Fairwater plains are SOOO much better unless you have to punch thru the ice :P

To give you folks an idea how fast you accelerate, you can FEEL the 6900 tons of sub pull away from under your feet. That right, you reach out and steady yourself when you stand on the power. Now it will not knock you off your feet but it can make you mistep or shift your weight to stay standing. Still gives me a rush to remember standing between the main engines when you REALLY cranked it on.

That is the difference between answering a normal bell(as the game engine does now) and All Ahead Flank Cavitate. The faster you get speed up the more effective your planes and rudders are, the more manuverable you are. You use this sudden increase in manuverability to get out of the detection cone of the torpedo because at THIS point you don't give a hoot about making noise, they already found you.

You clear datum, evade the weapon, make the other guy re-istablish contact and have to recompute his TMA solution all over again. MEANWHILE, you now have a good line of bearing on where HE is.

But I degress.