Why no Lufftwaffe bases?

[Salvadoreno]

Is it not possible to model more airfields for the Germans in this game? I do not know any modders who have even attempted to model this. Why not model the Gruppe 40 that was put in Donitz command in late 1940 early 1941? The Condors did a great deal of damage to convoys when they found them, and in some instances even worked with uboats in coordinated attacks against convoys. wE COULD still make the air strikes a rarity, but a little more than usual. I have yet to see ANY air support even with all the necessary mods (Rub, Uboat War Ace, Harbor Traff). It would just be nice to get a decent airfield in france (gruppe 40) with a realistic radius to rockall bank. Anyway please respond! I need to know why nobody has tried this..

[NiKuTa]

I want asked the same question too. Why there are no Luftwaffe AirBases in RUB + HT mods?????

I started a new campaing with RUB 1.45 + HT 1.47 and never see a enemy plane. My date is March 1941.

Why there are no Float_planes_mod in RUB 1.45 + HT 1.47 ???

[tennozan]

I'd love to see a few more Luftwaffe aircraft in the game - not just the few that buzz around me as I leave the harbor then crash into the shore. Nothing personal Harbor Mod! Actually quite funny the other day to watch a Bf-109 attempting flight under water - it was like watching a ferocious depth-charging being conducted by a submerged aircraft.

Luftwaffe naval attachments were a reality in the early war years and I'd love to see more than one base exist in the game - how about one in France for instance?

The few times I have seen them in action it has been great - those Condors / Stukas can really give it to Tommie in the shorts! :huh:

[Egan]

I want asked the same question too. Why there are no Luftwaffe AirBases in RUB + HT mods?????

I can't speak for HT but if the campaign in 1.45 was basically the same one CCIP and I had been working on for the previous versions then the answer is that I had planned to add them in an update once we were sure everything else was working ok. I won't be doing any more work on SH3 mods so if you want them in there your best bet is probably to either do it your self (It ain't hard but can get pretty complex when you are coverg the entire war - air stuff in this game can be a total b*tch to get right.....or ask Rubini to add them in HT. If they used a different campaign mod after I left then I don't know.

I started a new campaing with RUB 1.45 + HT 1.47 and never see a enemy plane. My date is March 1941.

Why there are no Float_planes_mod in RUB 1.45 + HT 1.47 ???

We built it so that there would be very few aircraft up until late '41. by the late war period it should be pretty intense. I even released a new airstrike cfg that upped the aircraft considerably. Some people liked it, some didn't. i don't have it anymore anyway. Try Wolves at War. we had a big thread about it a while back and I'm sure some one over there will be able to remember it.

Just a note. Running at 1024 tc or over seemed to intefere very heavilly with aircraft spawning. you could almost use it as a cheat to avoid air contact. For best results don't go over 512.

[Salvadoreno]

so nobody has really tried to add them? hmm maybe ill ask Rubini or HansSolo or the other modders that add battles and more interaction in the game

[Rubini]

Hi guys,

I'm really interested to add German Airbases on the Campaign files (RUB/HT). I'm in contact with CCIP and we will add them. But any historical info or suggestion will be welcome too. :yep:

Rubini.

[Sailor Steve]

The Luftwaffe had bases everywhere. Do you need fighter locations, just bombers or just naval bombers. I will put together a list tomorrow; easy because most of them were near cities-I can just tell you which ones.

[NiKuTa]

Just a note. Running at 1024 tc or over seemed to intefere very heavilly with aircraft spawning. you could almost use it as a cheat to avoid air contact. For best results don't go over 512.

I dont understud that ??? so when i play 1024 or over that the aircraft spawning dont work corretly ???? My seting:

TimeStop=0
RealTime=1
LandProximity=4
CriticalDamage=1024
CrewEfficiency=1024
AirEnemyDetected=1
SoundEffects=4
CharacterAnim=4
EnemyDetected=1
RadioReport=2
Particles=32
PrayState=1024
HunterState=1024
3DRender=1024
Maximum=2048

I like a real a hard game. I dont like play when game is easy.
Always full real + the best realistic mods :cool:

BTW i will try do something with luftwafe.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Essentially when you use time compression over 256x a lot of areas are affected.

As well demostrated by Avon, the distance that a ship is sighted at is massive.

As aluded to in this post and as has been discussed early on, that when using high time compression, 1024x and even most likely 512x, the instances of encountering an aircraft are all but removed. They will still occur, just probably at about 10% of what happens when using 256x.

I would assume that if the aircraft instances are reduced, then the ship contacts may also be impacted above the penalty og the greatly reduced sighting distance when using high compression.

[Rubini]

Sailor Steve,
-Thanks and i'm looking forward for your help on this stuff. ;)


Nikuta,
-When using 1024TC (in truth, 512TC and above) SH3 miss a lot of things: the aircraft spawn and enemy ship detection are less effective. This is a stock bug.
-And please let's do the german airbases! I'm still waiting for some more info. I intend to release a new version of the HT compatible with RUB and NYGM series soon. :up:

Rubini.

[NiKuTa]

So the best max TC setting is 256 ???? :)
If yes i will set this time.

[Der Teddy Bar]

TimeStop=0
RealTime=1
LandProximity=32
CriticalDamage=1
CrewEfficiency=1
AirEnemyDetected=1
SoundEffects=8 <= like to hear noise at slightly higher compression
CharacterAnim=4
EnemyDetected=1
RadioReport=1
Particles=32
PrayState=256 <= this is I never know artificially if I am in danger
HunterState=256 <= this is I never know artificially if I am in danger
3DRender=256 <= this is so I can use any screen without it slowing down
Maximum=256 <= obviously sets max speed

[Hunterbear]

Hi guys,

Neat ideas being thrown around here.

I play the Battle of Britain flight sim (by Rowan). There is a great mod community for that game at http://www.bob-ma.org/. The rights to the game has been bought by another company who have released an updated version (http://www.gmxmedia.net/bob2/)
They have modded that game with the same passion as we who try to mod SH3.

Not trying to plug Battle of Britain, but anyone who has played it can attest to the great air battles (even missions attacking shipping).

For SH3, I think it would just be nice (early on in the war) to see some high altitude bomber formations heading to England (He-111's,etc) or at least see a crippled, smoking bomber flying low over the channel heading back to a German airbase after having been worked over by a Spitfire or Hurricane(ala Battle of Britain - the movie). Or at least once in a while see or get assistance in an attack on a convoy by a FW-200.

I hope we can realise some form of the ideas being pitched in this thread. It would truely add more immersion to the sim and dimension to war that was going on in the skies above.

Keep it up the great ideas!

:arrgh!:

[Salvadoreno]

Well Rubini, the air group that was designated for Uboat support was Gruppe 40, that was put under DOnizt command late 1940-thru the war. They did significant damage to convoys in 1941 but there air radius was limited to Rockall Bank and the South Atlantic. The airbases in france were numerous and plentiful. How in depth do you plan to go, because only Gruppe 40 based in.. er.. close to Kerneval i think, was only used for uboats benefits. It is still accurate to simulate rare occurances in condor ops, and even more accurate to get bad contact reports on convoys until march or may (via bad condor sightings-1941). If you want more info i can definately help out, just PM me and ill definately put in some research! Love to help out the modders!

[LukeFF]

http://www.ww2.dk/

All the info you need to know about when and where the Luftwaffe operated, including aircraft types.

[HanSolo78]

Just looked at the latest lnd.layer campaign of U-Boat War Ace.. in France there are about 4 to 5 air basses added in Norway about 3.
Also in Dutchland there´s one airbase added!
I think that should be enough...

[redbrow]

right around the time of Dunkirk - june 1940 - the skys over the channel should be filled with German aircraft. i came away from some of the MOD versions of SH3 career feeling like a lot of guys who make these mods never read a lick of history at all.

[tennozan]

Han old buddy -

How would the average joe go about adding in a few more Luftwaffe airbases - or is it going to take installing another mod? Is this something that can be edited or pasted into a configuration file somewhere?

[NiKuTa]

In mission editor AirBases have circle. What this circle mean ????

I set Ge AB in Bordeux - from there started FW200
One near Trondheim - from there started FW200
One in Dania -from there started FW200 in 1940
One near Caen

Add a italian bases too

One on sycilia
One near La Spezia

And one more British base near Bristol

What do you think ?????

[Sailor Steve]

http://www.ww2.dk/

All the info you need to know about when and where the Luftwaffe operated, including aircraft types.
Well, there you go! :cool: :up:

Made my job a whole lot easier; as in nonexistent.

Thanks Luke!

[HanSolo78]

@ tennozan

The most simple way to get more german air strikes is to add some german air bases wherever you want in the lnd.layer via mission editor.

@Nikuta

I think the circle means the distance planes from this base that can be reached.
Small bases have only Arados and a short range I think (smaller circle) .

[NiKuTa]

In all bases is CFG file, witch have something like this

[AirGroup 2]
StartDate=19400602
EndDate=19451231
Squadron1Class=DBJU87Stuka
Squadron1No=6
Squadron2Class=LBJU88
Squadron2No=6
Squadron3Class=FBMesserschmittBF109
Squadron3No=4
Squadron4Class=LBSFW200
Squadron4No=2
Squadron5Class=LBSArado
Squadron5No=1

This is a max numer of sqn's witch fly from this AB or this is a radome group witch we can meet ???? I dont know what this realy mean

[Rubini]

Hi guys,

I think that the important is to find a balanced and historical job with the german airbases. Look, is too easy to add them to the LND layer, is a 5 minutes task. But the historical and balanced way is another history...

Nikuta,

[AirGroup 2]
StartDate=19400602 <== the start date to be spawn
EndDate=19451231 <==the end date
Squadron1Class=DBJU87Stuka <== the type of aircraft. You can add any german aircraft here. Notice the range and the historical issue here.
Squadron1No=6 <==the number of planes in this squadron. You can adjust this to balance the number of planes in an attack.
Squadron2Class=LBJU88
Squadron2No=6
Squadron3Class=FBMesserschmittBF109
Squadron3No=4
Squadron4Class=LBSFW200
Squadron4No=2
Squadron5Class=LBSArado
Squadron5No=1


Notice that the aircraft that is send to engage is related to the range of this aircraft. So, choose the correct ones to be on the airbases. That's all!

Rubini.

[NiKuTa]

So in air there are only one group (sqn) of eatch type.
1x6 Ju87
1x6 ju88
1x4 Me109
1x1 Arado

And only this planes are "started" from this AB ??????

I must know that ??? :cool:

[redbrow]

i'm all for historical balance, so when i was passing by dunkirk in june of 40 and all i saw were brit dds and one brit air attack i felt cheated - i know the germans had the skies filled at that time with aircraft going after the brit ships trying to rescue the trapped brit army. thats when i started trying to make my own mod changes - cause i found that those mods claimed to be more historical but weren't.

[Salvadoreno]

GREAT! When can this mod be avaliable!? Sounds like Rubini and Hans Solo have figured it out!

[Rubini]

redbrow wrote:
i'm all for historical balance, so when i was passing by dunkirk in june of 40 and all i saw were brit dds and one brit air attack i felt cheated - i know the germans had the skies filled at that time with aircraft going after the brit ships trying to rescue the trapped brit army. thats when i started trying to make my own mod changes - cause i found that those mods claimed to be more historical but weren't.
-The historical mod issue is a very, very long and hard work thing. The first approach of the historical mods was for the Uboat scenario (ports, uboats types, behaviours, etc.). And this is a great time consuming task for all modders involved on this job. So, please, if you could help us then will be great. Like I said, if the problem is only to put some german bases on the LND, then no problem, is a 5 minutes task. But this is not what we want here.




NiKuTa wrote:
So in air there are only one group (sqn) of eatch type.
1x6 Ju87
1x6 ju88
1x4 Me109
1x1 Arado

And only this planes are "started" from this AB ??????

I must know that ???
-Yes, only these groups from that AB. The game uses the file AirStrike.cfg to generate the air attacks and determine what planes will be used for:

Airstrike Session:
1. Compute airbases in range according to their aircraft maximum ranges
2. Compute air coverage factors on allies/axis/neutral on the target zone
3. Compute airstrike probability from each base
3.1 check number of aircraft that can strike at that range and conditions, and compute a coverage factor based on the range of each aircraft type
and detection area around submarine ( 10 km radius )
3.2 multiply coverage factor for the target area with :
- current airstrike probability againt that side
- nigft factor ( if necessary )
- airbase competence
- close to airbase factor
3.3 check probability for airstrike
3.4 add more aircraft probabilistically for a large target

So we can have these infos in mind to finish the job.

Rubini.

[Rubini]

Salvadoreno,
I understand that Uboat War mod already have these german airbases.
RUB and HT will probably adds them too. Let's wait a bit for the next release. ;)

Rubini.

[NiKuTa]

So maybe we can do some like this
For Large AB:

[AirGroup 1]
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19400620
Squadron1Class=DBJU87Stuka
Squadron1No=2
Squadron2Class=LBJU88
Squadron2No=2
Squadron3Class=FBMesserschmittBF109
Squadron3No=2
Squadron4Class=LBSFW200
Squadron4No=1
Squadron5Class=LBSArado
Squadron5No=1
Squadron6Class=DBJU87Stuka
Squadron6No=2
Squadron7Class=LBJU88
Squadron7No=2
Squadron8Class=FBMesserschmittBF109
Squadron8No=2
[AirGroup 2]
StartDate=19400621
EndDate=19430120
Squadron1Class=DBJU87Stuka
Squadron1No=4
Squadron2Class=LBJU88
Squadron2No=4
Squadron3Class=FBMesserschmittBF109
Squadron3No=4
Squadron4Class=LBSFW200
Squadron4No=2
Squadron5Class=LBSArado
Squadron5No=1
Squadron6Class=DBJU87Stuka
Squadron6No=4
Squadron7Class=LBJU88
Squadron7No=4
Squadron8Class=FBMesserschmittBF109
Squadron8No=2
Squadron9Class=LBSFW200
Squadron9No=1
Squadron10Class=LBSFW200
Squadron10No=1
[AirGroup 2]
StartDate=19430121
EndDate=19451220
Squadron1Class=LBJU88
Squadron1No=2
Squadron2Class=FBMesserschmittBF109
Squadron2No=2
Squadron3Class=LBSFW200
Squadron3No=1
Squadron4Class=LBSArado
Squadron4No=1
Squadron5Class=LBJU88
Squadron5No=2
Squadron6Class=FBMesserschmittBF109
Squadron6No=1
Squadron7Class=LBJU88
Squadron7No=1

There will be a few sqn groups startet from this AB, if one sqn in only one strike group of this type plane whitch are in thim moment in the air.

[Rubini]

NiKuta,

I think that this way you will have a lot of planes in the air. So test it and post your finds later. :up:

Rubini.

[NiKuTa]

Wery good. Becouse after 1943 the airplanes was the worst enemy for U-boots :)

BTW if anyone make a new plane for SHIII pls send me it - nikuta@serek.one.pl

I will try do a real air mod :D with your help of corse :cool:

[sergbuto]

BTW if anyone make a new plane for SHIII pls send me it - nikuta@serek.one.pl
Vaa made a few new planes for SH3 including Lancaster, Blenheim Mk.IV , F6 Hellcat, Re2000. I got stuck with making transparant pilot cabin, i.e. glass for the cabin, otherwise you could have a brand new mosquito, maybe even with rockets.

[NiKuTa]

British used a some merchats which have catapult and hurricanes on it. Maybe we do this merchants ???? But thhis Hurris dont take a bomb, and the Hurris in the game have no machineguns :(.

@sergbuto Could you do a mosquito with 40 mm gun. Thay was used to atack U-boots ????

[Salvadoreno]

OoOo this is sounding greaat. But dont forget the german AF!!!

[bookworm_020]

British used a some merchats which have catapult and hurricanes on it. Maybe we do this merchants ???? But thhis Hurris dont take a bomb, and the Hurris in the game have no machineguns :(.

@sergbuto Could you do a mosquito with 40 mm gun. Thay was used to atack U-boots ????

The Mozzie had a 57mm gun, but it was only built in small numbers as rocket armed aircraft proved to be more affective.

[NiKuTa]

I dont remember 40 or 57 mm gun :/, but i think that this plane we may (should) add. :)

[redbrow]

oh don't mind me Rubini, i have no where to complain - i just opened up all three of the campaign files and saw what a gigantic job was done in RUB. dunkirk would likely be best dealt with through a single mission level. :yep:

[NiKuTa]

After my test with more sqn's in one base i know that this is not good idea. Bette is add more AB them more sqn's in one AB.

Actualy i do a British side.
I found wery cool www side. http://www.rafweb.org/Maps/Coastal1939.htm
Now i do the AB same as on this www.
After that i will try do US, CA, IT and Luftwafe basses.

I set a planes to AB, and each AB is different.
Small are for short range planes.
medium have medium range planes.
Large have long range planes.

[irish1958]

Rubini
Could you make your next HT mod compatable with IUB 1.02 Also?
I think some of us are still using it. I don't think Orgy is interested anymore in revising his mod collection.
Will the up-coming super mod include these changes?
irish1958

[iambecomelife]

British used a some merchats which have catapult and hurricanes on it. Maybe we do this merchants ???? But thhis Hurris dont take a bomb, and the Hurris in the game have no machineguns :(.

@sergbuto Could you do a mosquito with 40 mm gun. Thay was used to atack U-boots ????

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/iambecomelife/camwip.jpg

:cool:

[Salvadoreno]

Omg iam!! thats awesome!!!! Is that a c2?

[malcymalc]

Actually it was not just during Dunkirk -German bombers and fighters attacked ships in the Channel and along the East Coast form July 1940 through 1941.

See http://www.paralumun.com/warbattleofbritain.htm

And in more detail:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/calendar.html

Note that the British radar station were located right on the clifftops in many cases so when you see Fairlight attacked by U87s that would be visible from a sub off the coast.

See also
http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/hnondates3.html

One of the things that "bugs" me is the assertion that the Luftwaffe did not help the U-boats, probably popularised by the Das Boot miniseries. I noticed that even Clay Blair's excellent first book on the UBoot war took the same general stance (possibly one of the failings of having such an in depth narrow view, rather than looking at the wider picture). It is certainly true that the lack of a dedicated Fleet Air Arm hindered the Kriegsmarine in a big way and that in the Atlantic itself better co-ordination between Uboots and aircraft could have helped.

However this argument ignores the handicaps the Luftwaffe found itself with in 1940. The Luftwaffe was designed as a close air support arm - the U87 was intended for use as "mobile artillery" with the PanzerKorps, the Bf109 had a short range because it was intended to establish battlefield superiority from temporary airstrips, and so on.

Then when France fell and Britain did not surrender as intended this tactical airforce was required to take on a strategic bombing role for which it was not suited. It is hard to provide strong aircover in mid-Atlantic when the bulk of your planes could not fly further than Belfast.

The Luftwaffe did do what they could as the links demonstrate - when a target was within range and the assets were available (remember that from April / May 1941 the Luftwaffe was largely taken from the West to fight the main enemy, Russia) it got attacked. Additional aircraft delivered mines to the East Coast port areas.

From the summer of 1940 Britain did not have the unfettered use of its East Coast ports because of UBoot and air attacks. This meant that most goods landed had to come in via the West Coast ports (Bristol, Cardiff, Liverpool etc) causing major strains on the transport system (you can imagine 40 ships arriving at once would cause problems in a port today with containerisation - imagine what it was like then) not only in the ports themselves but in the rail and road net.

If any modders are planning things then you would probably need to think about adding Ju88 and Do17 models to the game for East Coast attacks.

Regards
Malcolm

[malcymalc]

Hear a description of a Luftwaffe convoy attack here:

http://www.harry-tates.org.uk/history2.htm

Malcolm

[NiKuTa]

Right now i do that. It is only a beta, and it is not finished.
http://rapidshare.de/files/13029935/knights_of_the_sky_0.36_beta_HT1.47.exe.html

[Salvadoreno]

how is any of this comming along guys?? Havent heard from this for a while and didnt even notice the beta test for "knights of the sky!"
I know NYGM is comming out with a mod, dont know if its called Tonnage Mod or Air Mod that encompasses air combat but it will definately improve this mod as well if they are both compatible. Faster, more stronger planes for luftwaffe and Coastal Command plus the presence of aircraft during convoy battles would be awesome!!!

Any1 know how its going? Any1 do a beta test

[NiKuTa]

I'm testing this my mod :). Is good, first time a see a atack on my base. When i leaving my port the enemy bombers come a start atacked evything what was in port - CooL :D.

I s was atacked by enemy plane near Freetown.

[Salvadoreno]

Hey nikuta, is there also a way to reduce the frequency planes come, i see planes all the friggin time rounding the shetlands in 1940 and its ridiculous..

[VonHelsching]

Salvadoreno,
I understand that Uboat War mod already have these german airbases.
RUB and HT will probably adds them too. Let's wait a bit for the next release. ;)

Rubini.

Hello Rubini,

Are there any (at least remote) plans to include Uboat War Ace to HT? I understand that a lot of scripts have to be combined, but I think it would make a real difference in the game.

Combined with Sh3Gen (which does not need any integration work) the player would have some sort of "intelligence report" on where the hot action will be.

Thanks!

[Salvadoreno]

oOO that sounds nice. I believe all these modders should just unite nd create some ubermod to make the game 600xs better than it already is.. Then no worries about combining mods.

[Salvadoreno]

What ever happened to the problem of no luftwaffe contacts in 1940-1941? No Condors no Stukas no nothing! I thought we had some talented modders working on it and then it just dissapeared! Some1 came out with a testers version too. What ever happened?

I thought we were just gonna increase airfields and get a simulated "Gruppe 40" for the sake of our uboots

[HanSolo78]

i'm all for historical balance, so when i was passing by dunkirk in june of 40 and all i saw were brit dds and one brit air attack i felt cheated - i know the germans had the skies filled at that time with aircraft going after the brit ships trying to rescue the trapped brit army. thats when i started trying to make my own mod changes - cause i found that those mods claimed to be more historical but weren't.

Did you try "U-Boat WarAce Campaign"?
I reworked very much hist. operations.. also dunkirk!
And there are definitely some scripted aircrafts who try to attack
escaping convoys etc.

[Gammel]

Vaa made a few new planes for SH3 including Lancaster, Blenheim Mk.IV , F6 Hellcat, Re2000. I got stuck with making transparant pilot cabin, i.e. glass for the cabin, otherwise you could have a brand new mosquito, maybe even with rockets.
:o


Mhhh...rockets


Forget about that cabins! I want that mosquito plane!!!
:-j