Sextant Mod? and Celestial Navigation Questions....

[Tikigod]

Sextant mod idea

Anyone know if it is possible to put map like tools such as on the watch officer deck view? Would be kinda cool to measure angles of the stars to see how accurate they are and if you can actually plot a position circle of the general area you in on the nav map. Would be kinda cool to somehow hide or stop the auto tracking of the boat and be able to plot estimates where u think you may be in the ocean. I was checking out stars and noticed they are pretty accurate. (as you can see below how easy it is to find north star and north) I just want to start seeing if I can put some measuring tools that I can drag around or have in an alternate binocular view that would be used as a generic sextant.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/sh3-2006-02-04-20-25-07-20.jpg

It would be cool to have this feature maybe in sh4 to actually bend celestial bodies to horizon like this pic below to get angles. My question is can you still get accurate angles from current model with angle ruler that can be dragged around in sky? I liek the draggble combass and protractors I have seen. But, are they only tied to the maps? or can they be applied to the watch officer view on deck?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/1sextant.jpg

Also anyone have pics of german sextants used by uboats? I think this is one. But, I'm not sure what all different kinds they used.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/german_sextant.jpg

Moon Illusion

Also does anyone know if a Moon Illusion can be seen at sea? Supposedly it is caused by objects in front of you that cause it to appear larger but, if there is nothing to horizon at sea do you still see it? I noticed in game its small at horizon. The same size ass it is when it is above you. Is this how it looks at sea? or do you get the larger effect like you do on land? It should be larger near horizon and shrink as it rises.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/sh3-2006-02-04-20-22-11-52.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/sh3-2006-02-04-20-21-42-22.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/moon_illusion.gif

[Redwine]

Good !

It is a loss part of real U-boat behaviour.

Sectant and celestial navigation, and RDF/ADF navigation.

[VON_CAPO]

Sextant mod idea

Anyone know if it is possible to put map like tools such as on the watch officer deck view? Would be kinda cool to measure angles of the stars to see how accurate they are and if you can actually plot a position circle of the general area you in on the nav map. Would be kinda cool to somehow hide or stop the auto tracking of the boat and be able to plot estimates where u think you may be in the ocean. I was checking out stars and noticed they are pretty accurate. (as you can see below how easy it is to find north star and north) I just want to start seeing if I can put some measuring tools that I can drag around or have in an alternate binocular view that would be used as a generic sextant.
:up: It would be an excellent mod.
:yep: :yep: :yep:

[booger2005]

I see a possible problem in that the SHIII world is flat. :huh:

[Crop-Duster]

Good !

It is a loss part of real U-boat behaviour.

Sectant and celestial navigation, and RDF/ADF navigation.

More like a lost art in this world of GPS

[Kalach]

I see a possible problem in that the SHIII world is flat. :huh:
Also the sun revolves around the Earth in the SH3 world ;)

[Camaero]

I need a tutorial to learn me how that all works!

[booger2005]

I see a possible problem in that the SHIII world is flat. :huh:
Also the sun revolves around the Earth in the SH3 world ;)

Take that Christopher Columbus

:rotfl:

[gdogghenrikson]

I see a possible problem in that the SHIII world is flat. :huh:

any proof then why is there a horizon??

[UncleReiben]

Because video games have view radii where the player can only see a predetermined distance from his character

[VonHelsching]

I see a possible problem in that the SHIII world is flat. :huh:

:o
:rotfl:

No, no...Actually the world is round and is suuposed to have two big holes where legends say that a north and a south pole exist. The sign that you are approaching the holes are the "iceberg" units.

[booger2005]

I see a possible problem in that the SHIII world is flat. :huh:

:o
:rotfl:

No, no...Actually the world is round and is suuposed to have two big holes where legends say that a north and a south pole exist. The sign that you are approaching the holes are the "iceberg" units.

Ohhhh.....OK

[Tikigod]

yeah but, there has to be way to fool you....would be cool if it was coded into different spots of maps....just to make up readings as you take them in different locations. Its not like you are actually moving anywhere either....its all an illusion so you don't need a round world to take readings....just sky updates that match real world data..... For now I'm just wondering if you can measure general latitude for different spots you go to...and I jsut want to know if you can put drag tools on the watch deck....or maybe put a device in binoculars to measure angle.....i thought they would have soemthing in periscope since alot of subs have it builts into persicope.....I jsut don't know if that was case for uboats since movies always show them with handheld ones.....

Here is how to build your own homemade sextant out of a cd.
(I would use my sh3 if it wasn't for @#$! starforce)
http://www.tecepe.com.br/nav/CDSextantProject.htm

Tutorial for those that don't know how
http://www.clipperlight.com/howusesextant.html

Don't need something advanced....we can make a simple frickin thing called a kamal.....
http://www.mat.uc.pt/~helios/Mestre/Novemb00/H61iflan.htm
it measures degrees you just have to hold it in your teeth and point other end to polaris....

Cool 3-d Sextant toy
http://www.mindavenue.com/DB/projects/show46/Sextant.html

Wikipedia Stuff on it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextant

[Tikigod]

More WW2 German Navy Sextants...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/capture2.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/capture4.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/capture3.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/capture1.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Tikigod78/capture5.jpg

[Redwine]

I see a possible problem in that the SHIII world is flat. :huh:

May be not, Eearth Radius value is on Scene.dat.......

[Letum]

the SHIII world is flat, but
It simulates a curve in the 3d enviroment
And the sun and stars behave as if the world was spherical
the sun also behaves as if the world was going round it

So for navigation it makes no diffrance

[redbrow]

the SH world is flat, so making a working Sextant model that would be accurate is not likely possible. But SH4 could still include the sextant much like the radio, obviously the radio does not actually operate by sending a game radio wave back to Germany. it merely simulates radio operations. SH4 could have one of the officers perform the sextant routine before the navigator can fix where the u-boat is, especially after a storm. Along with this SH4 should include having the u-boat going off course in high winds and currents. this would stop the perfect GPS ability of the subs when in storms or under water.

[don1reed]

Tikigod,

I've tried using Starcalc and Starry Night prgs to ascertain the celestial ephemeris to no avail. The Moon in SHIII is way out in left field. In some instances rising or setting hours ahead or behind when it's supposed to.

I personally use a TI-86 with Starpath's program for the nautical almanac info for the war years and just measuring the celestial bodies altitudes with a mm scale got me within 100nm of my actual locations in the best of times and situations, however, that isn't accurate enough.

Although the heavens protrayed (SHIII) are in their very general positions, it's just eye-candy for now.

BTW, Cassens and Plath and Freiberger sextants are still manufactured.

Cheers,

[don1reed]

SHIII models drift and winds, btw.....IF

you do not use the waypoint tool. Just try navigating from point A to point B with compass heading alone to see what happens...you'll be making a lot of course corrections.

[redbrow]

waypoints are really used on ships, lines were really drawn on maps. perhaps not on ancient Roman ships, but they have been used since modern navigation was invented. the game uses waypoints on the assumption that there is a navigator doing all the checks. even without the sun and stars navigation can operate with waypoints by using accurate clocks, which is how 18th century sailors from europe navigated even in cloudy weather. i am afraid your system would just return me to the period of 2nd century Rome.

[don1reed]

Agreed.

Dragging a course and having the cpu follow a waypoint from A to B is fine, I have no problem with that. However, all I'm saying is if you ever decided to play the game in TC x1, and just for grins and for something to do, try steering the boat as a helmsman might...point your bow by compass headings, it just adds another neat feature to an already "top-drawer" sim. You get to experience virtual effects of wind and current that is not readily apparent to the drag and click method.

One other thing, I've been to sea before GPS and I can guarantee you that no matter how accurate the time piece or how straight the course and waypoints are drawn on a chart...there were times when I wished for the 2nd century navigator. Two weeks without benefit of celestial sight due to storms can easily put your ship off the chart.

Finally, that (bright) brass sextant above was probably recently made in Pakistan not Germany circa 1936; but it makes a nice coffee table item.
Rgrds,

[Tikigod]

wow, really cool info don1reed...

I noticed those current effects you are talking about in game....would be cool to apply real world ocean current effects to limit or gain your range and speed maybe use them to help with fuel....and give you reason to adjust the way you travel on the map....I know the gulf stream on east coast of florida is pretty frickin strong when you try to dive at 100 ft......it pretty much drags you along the bottom for a ride.....in order to stay in one place you pretty much have to dig in if you want to look at a wreck, etc. when you come back to surface you are always way the heck off course that you wanted.....never near the boat that dropped you off....there was one instance where we had a guy end up on shore a few miles from dive site and called dive company using someones cellphone on the beach....and they relayed message to boat to pick him up....how they would go about modeling soemthing like a real changing drift I couldn't tell ya....but would definately bring alot of new challenges to the game. But, if they ever put it in we deffinately need an anchor to function with it....because not having an anchor and dealing with currents in an emergency situation....would be a headache...... imagine waiting in port for a few hours until tides to go back out in order to save on fuel....you could point your nose in direction anchored area and just wait....even use anchor maybe to to turn the position of the boat to a enemy ship that is upstream from you....there are alot of neat sailing sims out there that have pretty nice simulations of winds and wind currents....would be cool to apply that to an underwater currrent system.....

and as for sextants above....they are from some auction site most they are selling from $200-$250 which I agree being kinda cheap for authentic ww2 collectible....but, then again I don't know that much about prices of memorablia I just thought they looked cool and would be fun to play with. I'd like to find the indian manufacturer maybe he can cut us a deal.

[don1reed]

Right you are Tikigod.

IIRC back in the original SH days they modeled tides, or at least, changes in ocean level. You could run aground in some narrow channels near San Bernadino, P.I., in the AM and have to wait until PM to let the inbound tide lift you free.

Yep, maybe in SHIV.

-...-

Sextants from that era would easily run > $2000 (with authentication)

you could try www.celestaire.com

All the best,

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Now we're talkin'!

1x TC sailing...

Navigation the hard way...

These things are just lost on most people I think because they feel is is too boring or too slow.

Scenario: You've sailed for days without seeing anything... and you've gotten to know your crewmen a bit by rotating them from time to time.

You've had your nose buried in a book written by Clay Blair... and behind your desk... just a pivot away, a 1/72 Revell VIIC is slowly coming to life...

You've gotten a little bit complacent and...

"SCHIFF GESISCHTET!!!"

ALLLLLAAAAAAARRRRRMMM!!!!!!!!!

Your hands start to shake because now those ship sightings have much more meaning than they did before.

You crashdive and then come back up to periscope depth... ready to rock and roll...

An hour later you discover that it is a Swedish steamer...

"Auftachen." You close bowcaps and surface the boat... Watch crew to the conning tower bridge.

Glory will have to wait a bit longer.

1x TC changes everything. Not everyone has the patience for it... Many claim to not have the time for it. (When they actually do because you can do other things at the same time.)

If you haven't tried it, you are missing out on an element of immersion that cannot be gotten otherwise!

Prost!

[don1reed]

Ahh, Herr Lehmann, the next thing you know, you'll be hanging your pocket watch from your bunk. :up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I've been keeping my eyes open for a good non-digital stopwatch to hang by my computer.

I can see it now... I'll get the stopwatch eventually and forget to use it because I spilt coffee all over myself during the crashdive.

I'm glad Tikigod started this thread. I learned quite a bit about land navigation (including some celestial navigation) when I was in the army. I became rather good at it too since my life might have come to depend on it. LOL during one evaluation in a thick, marshy forest in NCO academy... I had more than a few rear echelon people following me... an X-ray tech, a fork-lift supply person, and an army paralegal to name a few. I helped them pass the course because they'd never need to use the skill again.

Later those guys took care of me when I became ill and had a hard time getting ready for inspections.

LOL, my point is that there are a lot of commonalities between land and sea navigation. Things like drift and guesswork.

I don't think you can get really close to actuality in SH3... but you can get a nice mix.

Knowing how to find the north star, knowing how to figure out how far you've travelled... will generally get you into the ballpark.

Its not for everyone... but nice to know its there.

I like the little things... but then again I like to sail at 1xTC.

I guess I'm nuts.

[Tikigod]

well the cool thing would be is if you broke your compass after being depth charged then you you would be forced to use the stars...plus it is cool jsut to take samples from different stations to put all the data as a whole together to confirm your location

Like you said Kpt. Lehmann
These things are just lost on most people I think because they feel is is too boring or too slow.

I think thats what makes the game pretty powerful they give you option to go fast or slow with acceleration and automation or the manual abilities...to fit how you want to play at any given time...

But, the ability to check readings would just be a cool feature...I like the ability to go around to different compartments and tinker around with all the gadgets...in 1x mode........like many I wish game was just open sourced just to see how far public can go with it.....its amazing how much has been done with just the limits we have now........its relaxing to me after working all day....jsut to sit down and float around liek you are in a giant tub.....its like being in a real boat and just experiencing everything about it....I'm one for gadgetry. There is just so much more to the game then just hunting and sinking that you can use as a learning tool to see hwo these guys lived.....I like just using the sonar for depth soudings...and trying to navigate through waters submerged with just my map.....the real uboat map has an awesome mod that actually has ridges colored in the map...I thought it was just a graphic distortion in mod color but it actually had a ridge out near england .....if it wasn't for map I wouldn't have taken the readings and probably would have ran aground...

[Tikigod]

But, back on the possibility of a mod....Does anyone know if the menu_1024_768.ini can be edited to add the draggable tools in 3-d view? or is it only limited to map1 and map2 thing?

if not can a 3rd simulated periscope be added? there is a attack and observation scope....is there an ability to add a another scope or bioncular or uzo station to make an overlay of a sextant?

[Tikigod]

Here is an interesting post about the moon phases and times....don1 you even replied to it and never brought it up in this discussion...what are you hiding? whatelse do you know? cool program you mentioned by the way...

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=38209

[don1reed]

Well, Tikigod, is was a lesson in frustration. The heavenly dome in the sim is just for looks. It doesn't correlate to reality during the war years. At one point a few of us thought we could at least navigate using etmal (noon sight to noon sight or noon position to noon position). It turned out not to be accurate enough, either.

We even tried using the NLSR (observation scope) as our "sextant" since it had the greater elevation of the two scopes modeled, and just using the 4x magnification, there are 8 major tick mark for a total of 2°. There are 32 minor tick marks, equaling 0.06° each. That didn't work.

Tried using a mm scale flat on the F4 screen by using ratio and proportion, knowing what the altitude of polaris was from Kiel harbor at a particular time and date partially worked; but, doing a round of stars from the same location never correlated. Bottom line, it won't work as someone earlier pointed out due to the viewing distance with a 2 dimensional monitor screen. It worked for some stars, but not all the time.

You could use a real nautical almanac and determine that the moon, for instance, should be setting on the horizon, whereas, in the sim it was either still below or three hours above the horizon. Nothing was for real or ever consistant. So I moved on to other adventures. :|\

It kept me out of taverns (for a while, anyway)

[Tikigod]

excellent....thanks for the posts....as it might solve someone elses frustrations...you saved me some playtime.....

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Well guys, I guess that we should at least be glad that the north star is actually in the north aye?

:shifty: