Evading a torpedo

[Kirk]

Is there a trick for escaping from a torpedo? And is there a way to find out where the torpedo s without use Truth? Thanks for any help.

[Molon Labe]

The best way to avoid it is to stay outside of its sensor cone. Clear datum immediately after revealing your location or being fired on (which implies that they know your location).

If it does lock onto you...

In the stock game, placing a decoy between you and the torp will do the trick just about every time, since the torp explodes when it hits the decoy. To improve your chances of getting the torp to lock up the decoy, turn across the LOS between the torp and the decoy; this will force the torp sensor to sweep over the decoy when it turns to lead your new course.

With LW/Ami, decoys only attract torps, they don't destroy them, so you must either drop decoys and scoot far enough away that you are out of range when the torp reaches the decoy, or manuever rapidly enough that when the torp passes the decoy you are outside its sensor cone.

As for knowing where they are, you know the same way you know where everything else is--TMA! As a shortcut, you can use UUVs to triangulate the location, either in pairs or with ownship sonar data. If you know the location of the shooter its easy to enter an initial TMA solution which will suffice for a range estimate over the long term, while using sensor data to provide bearing. In intial TMA solution is often easy even when you don't know the location is was fired from, since there's a very good chance you can mark it with two sonar arrays and get a halfway decent triangulation.

[Kapitan]

blue book of submarine ops recomended www.subguru.com on downloads page

evading is simple but it depends on skill and luck i still get killed often mainly because i faulter on a turn or monover a silly mistake kills and i know ive made plenty

[sonar732]

In the stock game, placing a decoy between you and the torp will do the trick just about every time, since the torp explodes when it hits the decoy. To improve your chances of getting the torp to lock up the decoy, turn across the LOS between the torp and the decoy; this will force the torp sensor to sweep over the decoy when it turns to lead your new course.


The Akula captain in the Steam trailer went the wrong way.

[Mustang]

I'll usually drop an Active shallow, drop an Active Deep go to a depth mid way, throw my sub at flank speed and course to a 90-degree angle on the best guess of the incoming torpedo's bow.

If Truth is on or there is good link Data I'll fire another torpedo at a very slow speed or a UUV and usually they work as good decoys.

[SeaQueen]

Is there a trick for escaping from a torpedo?

Depending on what range they launch the torpedo at, you might be able to outrun it.

And is there a way to find out where the torpedo s without use Truth? Thanks for any help.


The best way is to find the attacking platform first. If you'd found him already, though, you probably wouldn't have a torpedo shot at you.

Absent that, the best thing you can do in DW is mark the bearing, fire a snapshot down the bearing (just to give them something to think about), and run as fast as you can in the opposite direction while putting as many countermeasures as possible in the water.

Once you start running absolutely DO NOT stop. You might want to go active at this point, though, because it's not like you're hiding much.

[nikimcbee]

blue book of submarine ops recomended www.subguru.com on downloads page

evading is simple but it depends on skill and luck i still get killed often mainly because i faulter on a turn or monover a silly mistake kills and i know ive made plenty

Ditto :ping:
It's quite a rush to have torp race over the top of you. I learned the trick from the blue book. :rock:

[Sonoboy]

I turn directly away from the torpedo when i know I'm going to be locked up, then I drop a decoy, run straight for a few seconds, and then make a 45 degree course change to whichever side. running straight for a few seconds allows the torpedo ample time to lock onto the CM. Then turning to try to get out of its cone.

Then I run perpendicular to the incoming torpedo. At some point in time I will drop another CM, and make another course change down the bearing of where the torpedo originated. This move insures that after the torpedo hits the first CM, it will find the second one before finding you.

If you're really unlucky, and the torpedo has locked onto you after passing the second CM, and if you're up against a human opponent, there is a chance that your enemy will think that he locked himself up with his own torpedo, and might shut it down. Happened with me once.

And if you're really lucky, the enemy sub will be close enough that it will see you on HFAS zooming by, followed by his torpedo that doesn't care what it kills... it's hungry.

[TLAM Strike]

Turn directly at the torpedo and close the distance before it can arm. It’s worked before for me. :ping:

[LuftWolf]

Turn directly at the torpedo and close the distance before it can arm. It’s worked before for me. :ping:

I'll keep in mind that you have said this for the next time I dive with you. ;)

[Oberon]

Turn directly at the torpedo and close the distance before it can arm. It’s worked before for me. :ping:

I'll keep in mind that you have said this for the next time I dive with you. ;)

"You arrogant ass, you've killed us!"

[Scion]

Turn directly at the torpedo and close the distance before it can arm. It’s worked before for me. :ping:

I'll keep in mind that you have said this for the next time I dive with you. ;)

"You arrogant ass, you've killed us!"

No that was the third torpedo.

In HFRO, the first torpedo from the Alfa went over the top of Red October, with the enable range set too high. The second was evaded by Red October by turning into the torpedo and closing the range to below the enable range. The Third was the one that the Alfa fired "without saftey features" and was eventually tricked into killing the alfa.

[Kapitan]

its true jonesy even said so and he was sonar

[TLAM Strike]

Turn directly at the torpedo and close the distance before it can arm. It’s worked before for me. :ping:

I'll keep in mind that you have said this for the next time I dive with you. ;)

"You arrogant ass, you've killed us!"

No that was the third torpedo.

In HFRO, the first torpedo from the Alfa went over the top of Red October, with the enable range set too high. The second was evaded by Red October by turning into the torpedo and closing the range to below the enable range. The Third was the one that the Alfa fired "without saftey features" and was eventually tricked into killing the alfa. You not counting the torpedo droped by the Seahawk. ;)

[sonar732]

its true jonesy even said so and he was sonar

Yea....and as if we had a dot matrix printer that printed out the name of the boat/ship we were classifying... :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Kapitan]

i do so wish that we did have such a smart computer.

in reality if a typhoon got a chip in the propellor or a dent it wouldnt radiate the same sounds as if it was a clean propellor hence why the navy recorded everything

[Kirk]

Hello all. Thanks for the ideas. I wanted to try something so I set up my sub, an enemy and a carrier. Make a long story short. The carrier(which was a good guy) did nothing. The enemy fired off 5 torpedos. Some how using everyone's ideas I was able to get away. So, thanks again.

[sonar732]

i do so wish that we did have such a smart computer.

in reality if a typhoon got a chip in the propellor or a dent it wouldnt radiate the same sounds as if it was a clean propellor hence why the navy recorded everything

I didn't say that we didn't have something along those lines. Just didn't have a computer to tell us.

[Kapitan]

no what i mean is you havnt got the same as what jonesey had

you got a file libray of sonar recordings for ships and subs i know that much

[sonar732]

you got a file libray of sonar recordings for ships and subs i know that much

When I was in, it was a big red book marked "Top Secret".

[GhOsT55]

lets put it this way if its active yur screwed :damn: or u have a very little chance of getting away

[BigBadVuk]

NOP..in stock 1.03 torpedo will explode if u drop active decoy in front of him....In LWAMI mod he will go for decoy sometime..and he will not explods so it is up to you try to get off his active cone!
And of coures there is a bit of luck in all that :up:

[SeaQueen]

Is there a trick for escaping from a torpedo? And is there a way to find out where the torpedo s without use Truth? Thanks for any help.

In Dangerous Waters:

1) Counterfire - ALWAYS shoot back if you're shot at. That's what the SNAPSHOT presets are for on the Weps station.

Be aggressive. Match his torpedos one-for-one back along the bearing of the incoming torpedo, set it to go active about 2kyds. Active sonar from a torpedo rattles a lot of people. You want that. Set it to snake search so that it follows that bearing as far as it can.

The purpose of this torpedo is not to make a carefully aimed shot at anything. Don't worry necessarily about the wire or anything. It probably won't hit anything if the guy who shot at you is good. That misses the point, though. You want to give the bad guy something he has to worry about while you're evading. Nothing is better than forcing him to evade as well. Counterfire, well placed or not, is potentially lethal to someone who doesn't do something to avoid it. Even then it has a slim chance of getting them.

Torpedos also make a lot of noise and clutter up his narrow and broadband sonar, hence it becomes more difficult to track you while you're evading. In a sense, they're like a free passive decoy.

While he's evading, he's not worrying about wire guidence, or other things. He's trying to get as far away as possible from the torpedo. Since the torpedo is coming from your direction, that usually makes you harder to track on sonar as well.

After you've given the guy who shot at you something to think about besides you...

2) Countermeasures... the more the better. Drop as many as you can of all types. Think statistics. If the probability that a torpedo will be decoyed is p, then the probability that torpedo will be decoyed at least once is 1-(1-p)^n. So... you want to make n as big as possible so that the torpedo is as likely as possible to go after decoys. Keep an eye on your countermeasures tubes and reload them as quickly as possible. When they're reloaded, shoot some more. Keep doing it until you KNOW that enemy torpedo is well past you or has detonated on something else.

3) Pick a random direction and quickly move away from the area. In the midst of all the noise caused by your torpedo and noisemakers, you want to increase the size of the area of uncertainty for the bad guy's firing solution. People (and the AI) seem to favor long range shots set to snake searches, which gives some advantage to going perpendicular to the torpedo. If the bad guy shoots a circle search torpedo, though, and has a good firing solution on you, perpendicular is no better than any other direction. A smart adversary will probably anticipate that too.

You want to go as fast as you can. With all the narrowband and broadband energy in the water, from your snapshots and noisemakers, stealth isn't really that important. Everyone knows you're there. That's why you got shot at in the first place.

If the badguy's torpedo can search that an area a and his area of uncertainty surrounding you is A, then his torpedos probability of detecting you is a/A. As A gets very big, a/A gets very small.

5) Pick the best depth for evasion. Typically this is just a tad below the depth of maximum sound speed.

Putting all these pieces together should make you very difficult to hit in the game.

[Bellman]

Some additions to SQs excellent brief -

Location:
Drop a UUV - if you have time and the correct speed. It can keep you in touch with a baffled torp and maintain
situational awareness.

''TIW'' - Check BB initialy at the called bearing and assign a tracker. Has it got your name on it ?
Is the track steady, curving 'away' or curving towards your baffles as you scoot. Monitor BB.

Escape:
Some clear the datum at 90 deg relative to torps bearing, Some prefer 135 ish but it really depends on
how accuarate is your estimate of the range of the incoming !
Choose 90-120 deg in LwAmi - remember the 120 deg SA baffle and your TA imay be temporarily screwed.

Multi CMs may not be a possibility and even in the SW beware giving a cool-headed opponent
a 'trail.' to track ! IMO Cms are best kept shelved ready for emergency use when torp is relatively 'close-in.'

If you get the distinctive torp pings - get into AISS. If, as at present there is no increasing rate of ping
frequency you have to estimate torps range from the visual display

Sweat and work hard !!

[Nexus7]

Is there a trick for escaping from a torpedo? And is there a way to find out where the torpedo s without use Truth? Thanks for any help.

In Dangerous Waters:

1) Counterfire - ALWAYS shoot back if you're shot at. That's what the SNAPSHOT presets are for on the Weps station.

Be aggressive. Match his torpedos one-for-one back along the bearing of the incoming torpedo, set it to go active about 2kyds. Active sonar from a torpedo rattles a lot of people. You want that. Set it to snake search so that it follows that bearing as far as it can.

The purpose of this torpedo is not to make a carefully aimed shot at anything. Don't worry necessarily about the wire or anything. It probably won't hit anything if the guy who shot at you is good. That misses the point, though. You want to give the bad guy something he has to worry about while you're evading. Nothing is better than forcing him to evade as well. Counterfire, well placed or not, is potentially lethal to someone who doesn't do something to avoid it. Even then it has a slim chance of getting them.

Torpedos also make a lot of noise and clutter up his narrow and broadband sonar, hence it becomes more difficult to track you while you're evading. In a sense, they're like a free passive decoy.

While he's evading, he's not worrying about wire guidence, or other things. He's trying to get as far away as possible from the torpedo. Since the torpedo is coming from your direction, that usually makes you harder to track on sonar as well.

After you've given the guy who shot at you something to think about besides you...

2) Countermeasures... the more the better. Drop as many as you can of all types. Think statistics. If the probability that a torpedo will be decoyed is p, then the probability that torpedo will be decoyed at least once is 1-(1-p)^n. So... you want to make n as big as possible so that the torpedo is as likely as possible to go after decoys. Keep an eye on your countermeasures tubes and reload them as quickly as possible. When they're reloaded, shoot some more. Keep doing it until you KNOW that enemy torpedo is well past you or has detonated on something else.

3) Pick a random direction and quickly move away from the area. In the midst of all the noise caused by your torpedo and noisemakers, you want to increase the size of the area of uncertainty for the bad guy's firing solution. People (and the AI) seem to favor long range shots set to snake searches, which gives some advantage to going perpendicular to the torpedo. If the bad guy shoots a circle search torpedo, though, and has a good firing solution on you, perpendicular is no better than any other direction. A smart adversary will probably anticipate that too.

You want to go as fast as you can. With all the narrowband and broadband energy in the water, from your snapshots and noisemakers, stealth isn't really that important. Everyone knows you're there. That's why you got shot at in the first place.

If the badguy's torpedo can search that an area a and his area of uncertainty surrounding you is A, then his torpedos probability of detecting you is a/A. As A gets very big, a/A gets very small.

5) Pick the best depth for evasion. Typically this is just a tad below the depth of maximum sound speed.

Putting all these pieces together should make you very difficult to hit in the game.

BOTC's "secret" engagement tactics ? :88) :hmm: :ping: :doh: :lol:

[Wim Libaers]

its true jonesy even said so and he was sonar

Yea....and as if we had a dot matrix printer that printed out the name of the boat/ship we were classifying... :rotfl: :rotfl:

Probably doubling the noise level of the sub... :lol:

[SeaQueen]

BOTC's "secret" engagement tactics ? :88) :hmm: :ping: :doh: :lol:

I have no idea what people teach in BOTC. I was just saying what I thought the best thing to do in DW is and why I think it. I'm sure a lot of the kiddies here have figured out that in the game, it works really well.

[LuftWolf]

2) Countermeasures... the more the better. Drop as many as you can of all types. Think statistics. If the probability that a torpedo will be decoyed is p, then the probability that torpedo will be decoyed at least once is 1-(1-p)^n. So... you want to make n as big as possible so that the torpedo is as likely as possible to go after decoys. Keep an eye on your countermeasures tubes and reload them as quickly as possible. When they're reloaded, shoot some more. Keep doing it until you KNOW that enemy torpedo is well past you or has detonated on something else.

SeaQueen, I don't think this is good advice.

In LWAMI, where countermeasures don't destroy torpedoes, if you drop a line of countermeasures along your evasion course, the torpedo will frequently follow the line of decoys from the original datum into the datum you are clearing to!!!

I have laid a line of decoys that torpedoes have followed up to 10 miles from my original position and killed me on my evasion routines exactly twice... and I vow that's not going to happen again.

It is crucial, if you chose to use two decoys, to put them as close as possible to each other WITHOUT them being right on top of each other... say a spread of a 100 yards or maybe a little more is good. If you chose to use more than two decoys on the same torpedo, the best bet is to place the groups MORE than 3-4nm apart (or the max detection range of the seeker of the torpedo following you) so that if one group of decoys spoof the torpedo, it's not going to turn to home in the on the second group of decoys and thus turn the torpedo onto your evasion course and towards your new position.

Once you have cleared your original datum, it is ESSENTIAL to stop and reestablish tactical awareness, preferably via a combination of your UUV and TA, since your opponent should be clearing his datum as well.

In submarine combat using wireguided torpedoes that can be directed, the one who wins is typically the one who is most conservative with his countermeasures and the most quick to come out of a clearing sprint ONCE the datum has been cleared, since the first shot of a torpedo rarely kills, but rather the torpedo that is first redirected that often scores the victory.

For me, evading torpedoes is all about just enough datum clearing to allow you to survive to steer your torpedoes effectively, and you can't do that at 33kts dropping decoys blindly to your stern, since your opponent is just going to resteer his torpedoes anyway. :arrgh!:

Against an opponent who knows what he is doing, once wireguided torpedoes are in the water, you are going to be evading until they are unable to steer the torpedo, so it's best to try to take the offensive initiative as much as possible, and this means making your clearing sprints as short as you think you can given the circumstances.

[Bellman]

As I said above '' giving a cool-headed opponent a 'trail.' to track ! IMO CMs are best kept shelved ready for
emergency use when torp is relatively 'close-in.''

A prime MP beginner fault, which we have all commited, is to panic at TIW and pump CMs so either a cavitation
or a CM trail is blood in the water ! Often in MP the torp is destined for another target so the first step is
investigate at an appropriate tactical speed while clearing the datum. That's the advantage of the SW !!

[SeaQueen]

In LWAMI, where countermeasures don't destroy torpedoes, if you drop a line of countermeasures along your evasion course, the torpedo will frequently follow the line of decoys from the original datum into the datum you are clearing to!!!


That's why I argued you should change to a random course.


In submarine combat using wireguided torpedoes that can be directed, the one who wins is typically the one who is most conservative with his countermeasures and the most quick to come out of a clearing sprint ONCE the datum has been cleared, since the first shot of a torpedo rarely kills, but rather the torpedo that is first redirected that often scores the victory.


To use wire guidence effectively, he has to either have an idiot do something like leave a trail of breadcrumbs to himself or be able maintain a good firing solution on you. The random course change should confuse his firing solution. Getting to your best depth for evasion might cause him to lose contact all together.

I don't put as much faith in wire guidence as you do. It can definitely be helpful but if you're clever it doesn't need to be a killer because the guy shooting at you has imperfect information.

I also don't think you should put as much faith in your own wire guidence as you do, because if your opponent got the first shot off at you, it's best to assume he has achieved a decent firing solution faster than you did. In that case, what makes you think you can wire guide your torpedo effectively? It's not a good idea to obsess over your snapshots hitting. If you notice that your opponent makes himself obvious or something, you should definitely capitalize on it, but there's no guarantee he'll do that.

In fact, it might often be better to just drop the wire on a snapshot and reload so you're ready with another shot more quickly in case the snapshot flushes him out. It's often better to shoot more torpedoes than to place all of one's faith in one "silver bullet."


For me, evading torpedoes is all about just enough datum clearing to allow you to survive to steer your torpedoes effectively, and you can't do that at 33kts dropping decoys blindly to your stern, since your opponent is just going to resteer his torpedoes anyway. :arrgh!:


This isn't what I advocated.