NYGM Crew Management (Preview) - NOW released

[Der Teddy Bar]

Follow this link to the release info and link in the Mod forum - http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47907


Crew Management

Purpose: Provide a challenging yet intuitive and stimulating method for crew and submarine management without the tedium associated with stock SH3 “fatigue” or the limitations of other SH3 “fatigue” modifications.

Discussion: Many elements of the stock SH3 “fatigue” system do not work well, or simply do not work at all. In the stock SH3 model fatigue is the dominant factor, yet there is no automatic system of rotating watch crews leading to a tedious process of switching crew members. Furthermore, contrary to WWII U-boat operations, adequate space is not provided for officer berthing leading to unrealistic officer behavior unless certain awards are given, then rendering the default SH3 fatigue system moot. Other elements such as crew promotions are broken. There is no reason to promote enlisted sailors because they provide no added benefit to the operation of the ship. This mod will attempt to address these deficiencies as well as others.

Definitions: This mod is based on three critical crew member statistics:

• Efficiency: A measure of how capable the crew member is of conducting certain tasks. Many factors have an impact on crew efficiency such as fatigue and proficiency.

In this model, awards and promotions will tend to improve crew member performance. This behavior can be correlated to the promotion and award systems in modern navies where those sailors better able to perform tasks in a given rating are given awards and/or promotions to higher ranks. While SH3 does not model individual crew members well, this system can be applied such that those crew members receiving awards or promotions are those deserving the recognition and as a consequence receive a “bonus” to performance. This performance bonus allows higher ranking crew members to recover efficiency 10% faster than the next lower rank.

The decay rate for crew efficiency has undergone many tweaks. The version of the “Not you grandmothers crew management mod” will cause all crew efficiencies to be at a minimum after about 18 hours, however many other factors will influence how well compartments function. The rate at which efficiency is lost varies based upon the location of the crew member. For example, crew members in the torpedo rooms, engine spaces, damage control and the bridge will reach minimum efficiency first. During harsh weather, crew members on the bridge will reach minimum efficiency even faster.

In order to offset the lack of additional crew berthing, “neutral” spaces have been established in the engine room not currently in use. Crew members will not regain efficiency, but they will not lose efficiency either.

Crew members at minimum efficiency will be denoted with an “E” next to the character portrait.

• Morale: This is a measure of the emotional condition, or confidence, of the crew. Morale has a dramatic impact of crew effectiveness. Crew member injury or death has a tremendous negative impact on crew morale, and can devastate crew morale in affected compartments. Sinking ships, on the other hand provides a boost to crew morale. In the “Not you grandmothers crew management mod” four to five crew deaths or eight to ten crew injuries will result in the crew reaching minimum morale. Like the efficiency statistic above, crew members at minimum morale will be denoted with an “E” next to their portrait. Due to the limitations in SH3 it is not possible to differentiate between minimum efficiency and minimum morale without looking at the individual crew members. The easiest way is to avoid situations resulting in crew injury or death.

The current system starts every crew member at maximum moral. This morale is slowing reduced during the course of the patrol. Morale has been timed to go down very slowly over about a six to seven week period. If you sink ships during this period of time, you will increase crew morale and improve overall crew efficiency.

• Health: As the name implies, this is the physical well being of an individual crew member. Rank no longer provides improvements in health with every crew member on an equal basis.

The goal of the “Not you grandmothers crew management mod” is to maximize the efficient operation of the uboat compartments, with many possible methods to accomplish optimal compartment operation. The crew’s ability to perform operations has been linked to compartment efficiency where possible (there may be issues with this as it does not always appear SH3 uses crew efficiency for spotting purposes). If the crew remains on watch too long, the engines will shut off.

One of the most difficult tasks was balancing efficiency and moral. The designers complicated this because of the way they chose to implement these two factors. This has been accomplished within the limitations of the SH3 model. The 18 hour rotation is designed to provide challenges during repeated convoy attacks, but not make crew switching a undo burden during long transits. Crew configurations have been reworked to provide port and starboard watch sections for rotation in order to help here as well. Crew management does become easier as the crew gains experience and qualifications, though even a veteran crew can suffer challenges if not thoughtfully managed.

Officers’ qualifications are now important, but they are not Uber as in the stock SH3 model. Officers will tire, as will other crew members, even if awarded the German Cross in Gold. The compartment impact of an officer can be important, but not as important as having qualified warrants and seamen in the compartment.

The helmsman qual is no longer required and has been eliminated.


Torpedo loading operations provides an example of the need for efficient crew management. Low efficiency crew may be able to load torpedoes, but probably not for long, and they will only load torpedoes at the slowest speed (~20 minutes per torpedo). A properly rested crew with some of the correct qualifications (provided in the default crew configurations) can load torpedoes twice as fast. A veteran crew can load torpedoes faster yet. This is just one example of how thoughtful planning and crew management will matter in efficient uboat operations.

[Torplexed]

Sounds good. Sure would like to get away from the "rechargable battery" model the stock game came with where you plug a worn-out crewman in the recharge (berthing) slot and put his replacement in the crew position slot. Sure...the batteries got better over time with medals and promotions but it sure never felt realistic.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Minimum effeciency and Compartment effects.

The minimum effeciency effect on the engine & torpedo compartment is obvious, the boat stops moving forward & torpedos do not load.

Due to the shortness to which the original crew could function, certain areas were made to continue to function even after reaching minimum effeciency. Though they 'function', there is a minimum effeciency effect on these compartments that is not so obvious.

The Command Room...
The minimum effeciency effects the ability of maintaining the periscope depth in non smooth water. Essentially, you are more likely to broach the surface.

The Bridge...
The minimum effeciency effects the ability to spot ships and planes. It does not stop them from spotting, not does it stop them from spotting long distance. What does happen is that the bridge watch are less likely to spot something until it gets closer.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Sounds good. Sure would like to get away from the "rechargable battery" model the stock game came with where you plug a worn-out crewman in the recharge (berthing) slot and put his replacement in the crew position slot. Sure...the batteries got better over time with medals and promotions but it sure never felt realistic.
Observer has done an increadible job with what is essentially a broken system. A big issue was that Morale is over represented and Fatigue/effeciency is under represented in compartment effeciency.

I now actually enjoy managing my crew as there is a reward for doing so and I do not feel like I am being punished.

The impact on morale by crew injury and deaths is great in that it makes you think twice about being a Gung Ho captain with your Tiger Tank U-Boat, especially when coupled with the NYGM Ship Damage Mod.

In all of this, even with a morale decimated crew through either being too vrave or bad luck, can still function and bring the boat home. It may take you twice as long as you must rest the crew, but it still can be done.

I really do feel that Observer has the balance between funtion and game play spot on.

[LukeFF]

Teddy,

What, if anything, have you done for the Radio qualification? It seems to me that, right now, my non-rated hyrdophone operator can pick up contacts way too quickly when we submerge. To me, it should make a big difference as to whether a petty officer has the Radio qualification or not when using the hydrophones. What do you think?

[Der Teddy Bar]

Teddy,

What, if anything, have you done for the Radio qualification? It seems to me that, right now, my non-rated hyrdophone operator can pick up contacts way too quickly when we submerge. To me, it should make a big difference as to whether a petty officer has the Radio qualification or not when using the hydrophones. What do you think?
I agree, but as to the end result, you will have to let me know on that.

How morale will affect efficienty of the crew? Will the 50% moral crew load torpedo 2 times slower that 100%?

[Der Teddy Bar]

What a qualification does is allow you to achieve the compartment efficiency with fewer men, so long as that qualification is relevant to that compartment.

For example...
1 qualified Petty Officer = 1.5 seamen
1 qualified Senior Petty Officer = 2 seamen
1 qualified Chief Petty Officer = 3 seamen

The once Uber Officer effect has been toned down to put the emphasis onto the Petty Officer's but an officer is still important.

The officer effect works by multiplying the total value of the PO's and the seamen by X when his qualification is relevant to that compartment.

Sub Lieutenant = 1.3
Lieutenant Jr = 1.4
Lieutenant Sr = 1.5

Lets look at a compartment that might require 10 men to function.
Example 1 needs 10 men
10 seamen = 10 men

Example 2 needs 8 men
2 qualified Senior Petty Officer = 4 men
6 seamen = 6 men

Example 3 needs 6 men
1 qualified Lieutenant Sr
2 qualified Senior Petty Officer = 4 men = 6 men with officer effect
3 seamen = 3 men = 4.5 men with officer effect

[bill clarke]

When will this mod be available ?

[THE_MASK]

Keep up the good work . :up:

[LukeFF]

When will this mod be available ?

When it's ready.

[Observer]

How morale will affect efficienty of the crew? Will the 50% moral crew load torpedo 2 times slower that 100%?

Morale is very difficult to work with because of how big an impact it has on the compartment efficiency. More directly to the point on your question, here's a bit from the included documentation about torpedo loads:

General
• Configured for 10 crew members (no officer) consisting of 2 qualified warrant officers and 8 seamen
• Torpedoes will be loaded at two speeds: 12.5 minutes and 25 minutes
• It is suggested to only use 10 crew members even though spaces may be available for others in order to keep them rested and available for other operations.
• One hour of torpedo loading requires about 3 hours of rest.

Max Efficiency, Max Moral
• About 1 hour (depending on a few factors) of torpedo loading time at the fast speed.
• About 3 hours of compartment working time before efficiency is too low to load torpedoes.

Max Efficiency, Min Moral (Min morale is 50%)
• About 1 hour (depending on a few factors) of torpedo loading time at the slow speed, for a total of about 1 hour of compartment working time before efficiency is too low to load torpedoes.

[Observer]

When will this mod be available ?

We've done quite a bit of testing, and I think it's about ready to be released. I put together a release candidate that I hope will be distributed within the next 24-48 hours.

This version will work with and without SH3 Commander.

[panthercules]

This sounds great - but, I was taking a look through the unzipped files and I noted that there is a new/modified en_menu.txt file in the data\menu folder. I play in German, so whatever changed in this file presumably won't show up in my game - can you give me any idea what changed in this en_menu.txt file, so I can maybe figure out what I need to change in the German language version?

Also, are there any other aspects you know of that won't work or will be different for those of us who play in German?

Also, I note that the readme-like files included in this indicate that there might be a problem with trying to use this in mid-career. I guess I'll just back everything up and give it a chance anyway as I don't really want to start over with this career unless I really have to.

I was curious how the crew setup works though, as it seems pretty clear that my current crew (even after 6 patrols) probably doesn't have enough people with specialization/qualifications to make this thing work the way it is described as working - do you just go into SH3 Commander's crew management feature and assign what seems like a reasonable mix of specializations and ranks, or is there some better way to do it?

Sounds like this thing took a tremendous amount of time/work - can't wait to give it a workout - thanks again for all this effort :)

[Payoff]

Cant seem to locate this. Has it been released or not? :hmm:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Cant seem to locate this. Has it been released or not? :hmm:
Follow this link to the release info and link in the Mod forum - http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47907

[Der Teddy Bar]

This sounds great - but, I was taking a look through the unzipped files and I noted that there is a new/modified en_menu.txt file in the data\menu folder. I play in German, so whatever changed in this file presumably won't show up in my game - can you give me any idea what changed in this en_menu.txt file, so I can maybe figure out what I need to change in the German language version?

Also, are there any other aspects you know of that won't work or will be different for those of us who play in German?

Also, I note that the readme-like files included in this indicate that there might be a problem with trying to use this in mid-career. I guess I'll just back everything up and give it a chance anyway as I don't really want to start over with this career unless I really have to.

I was curious how the crew setup works though, as it seems pretty clear that my current crew (even after 6 patrols) probably doesn't have enough people with specialization/qualifications to make this thing work the way it is described as working - do you just go into SH3 Commander's crew management feature and assign what seems like a reasonable mix of specializations and ranks, or is there some better way to do it?

Sounds like this thing took a tremendous amount of time/work - can't wait to give it a workout - thanks again for all this effort :)
RE: en_menu.txt is there to change the 'lables' for the crew. I will ask Observer to get a German one together.

I am presuming that Observer is refering to the patrols where you have to sail for many weeks to get to your distant location. If you don't sink anything along th way the morale will decrease. I think he is being over cautious.

I can run my u-boat with the default crew setup that only has 4 out of 5 officers qualified with a single qualification and with many unqualified PO's. The extra qualified PO's and extra qualifications for the officers will just make life easier.

[Payoff]

Der Teddy Bar,
I kept getting "The topic or post you requested does not exist". I used Gizzmoe's link. This sounds like a great improvement. Can I make these changes while at sea, or should I wait until I am in port? Thanks

[Der Teddy Bar]

Der Teddy Bar,
I kept getting "The topic or post you requested does not exist". I used Gizzmoe's link. This sounds like a great improvement. Can I make these changes while at sea, or should I wait until I am in port? Thanks
Unable to say what is the reason, I just tested link from within the post without issue.

You can do these changes at sea.

Also, you need to set the 3DRender= to the maximum compression setting in the 'My Documents' main.cfg.

I have included my settings.

I have set the PrayState=256 & HunterState=256 so that I do not know when I have escaped from an encounter.

[TIME COMPRESSION]
TimeStop=0
RealTime=1
LandProximity=16
CriticalDamage=1
CrewEfficiency=1
AirEnemyDetected=1
SoundEffects=16
CharacterAnim=4
EnemyDetected=1
RadioReport=8
Particles=8
PrayState=256
HunterState=256
3DRender=256
Maximum=256

[Observer]

This sounds great - but, I was taking a look through the unzipped files and I noted that there is a new/modified en_menu.txt file in the data\menu folder. I play in German, so whatever changed in this file presumably won't show up in my game - can you give me any idea what changed in this en_menu.txt file, so I can maybe figure out what I need to change in the German language version?

Correct. Three very simple labels have changed in this file:

Original:

1980=Morale
1981=Endurance
1982=Resilience

Changed:

1980=Morale
1981=Efficiency
1982=Health

I would be happy to put together the German version of this file, and the SH3 Commander file if someone is willing to provide the appropriate German translation.

Also, are there any other aspects you know of that won't work or will be different for those of us who play in German?

It depends of whether you make the 1024_768_menu.ini changes. If so, then yes. Maybe.

Also, I note that the readme-like files included in this indicate that there might be a problem with trying to use this in mid-career. I guess I'll just back everything up and give it a chance anyway as I don't really want to start over with this career unless I really have to.

There is no problem either mid-patrol or mid-career. You just have to be aware that crews without qualifications will be slightly more challenged than those with. You can easily alter this with SH3 Commander.

I was curious how the crew setup works though, as it seems pretty clear that my current crew (even after 6 patrols) probably doesn't have enough people with specialization/qualifications to make this thing work the way it is described as working - do you just go into SH3 Commander's crew management feature and assign what seems like a reasonable mix of specializations and ranks, or is there some better way to do it?

I would suggest taking a look at the default crew configurations in a single mission for each period of the war. Which reminds me (note to self) there are a couple additional changes I need to add back into the en_menu.txt file. I will need translations for the following text as well:

-Early War Crew
-Middle War Crew
-Late War Crew

Sounds like this thing took a tremendous amount of time/work - can't wait to give it a workout - thanks again for all this effort :)

It did. :)

[panthercules]

Well, I ran a compare on the new en_menu.txt and the old one in Word, and saw only those few label changes, so I figured it wouldn't matter much if I were using the German language version.

I did go into SH3 Commander to add a few qualifications, but I think I got a little carried away - when I got back into the game it turned out every one of my petty officer types has a qualification (I really thought I had left several alone, but apparently not) - I'm not sure if I can use SH3 Commander to remove some of those or not - will try that later

I did make all the menu_1024_768.ini changes, so I guess we'll see if it makes a difference.

Oh, and one thing I noted last night - when I started my patrol (the 7th for most of this crew), even with a machinist-qualified officer and three qualified petty officer types (and the rest seamen) I did not even start out with a full green bar in the diesel compartment - it was maybe 75-80% green - I'm thinking that this doesn't bode well for later in the patrol when people are tired - what does it take to get a full green bar using this model?

Also, one question - in SH3 Commander, there is no new choice to select this fatigue model - I assume you should choose the "SH3 default" fatigue model, and then count on the changes in your mod as having tweaked that default model to get the benefit of your changes?

[Observer]

Well, I ran a compare on the new en_menu.txt and the old one in Word, and saw only those few label changes, so I figured it wouldn't matter much if I were using the German language version.

See my post above and you will see it is fine. Again, I'm still looking for someone to do the translations.

I did go into SH3 Commander to add a few qualifications, but I think I got a little carried away - when I got back into the game it turned out every one of my petty officer types has a qualification (I really thought I had left several alone, but apparently not) - I'm not sure if I can use SH3 Commander to remove some of those or not - will try that later

SH3 Commander can remove as well as give qualifications.

I did make all the menu_1024_768.ini changes, so I guess we'll see if it makes a difference.

The 1024~.ini changes are for cosmetic purposes. It doesn't (much) change the functionality other than to disable the crash causing six surface/submerge buttons, the look for the number of crew members in a compartment and the indication of too many in a compartment (grey shape with red circle/slash highlighted blue), and the click option for the engine rooms and damage control room.

Oh, and one thing I noted last night - when I started my patrol (the 7th for most of this crew), even with a machinist-qualified officer and three qualified petty officer types (and the rest seamen) I did not even start out with a full green bar in the diesel compartment - it was maybe 75-80% green - I'm thinking that this doesn't bode well for later in the patrol when people are tired - what does it take to get a full green bar using this model?

Do not be overly concerned about the green bars. They are not important. With a proper crew makeup, the compartment will function. Proper crew makeup:

Type VII/IX:

-Bow Torpedo: 10 to load internal torpedoes / 14 to load external torpedoes
-Radio Room: 2 (qualified POs preferred)
-Command: 2 Officers (LI and NAV) min, 3 seamen
-Engine room: 1 Qualified PO and 4 seamen
-Stern Torpedo: 6 crew members
-Bridge: 1 Officer, 1 Qualified PO and 3 seamen
-Flak/Deckgun: As many qualified POs as possible

One other note. As with all mods, make sure you are in base before installing this mod because of the changes in the allowed number of POs and seamen.

The exception is the bridge crew. You should try to maximize this compartment bar as much as possible. It's the only one that really matters.

Also, one question - in SH3 Commander, there is no new choice to select this fatigue model - I assume you should choose the "SH3 default" fatigue model, and then count on the changes in your mod as having tweaked that default model to get the benefit of your changes?

Did you add the SH3 Commander files to your SH3 Commander/cfg directory? If you did, you will see the NYGM CMM option. This should be selected. The other changes are added though the other SH3 Commander files included in the package.

[panthercules]

Did you add the SH3 Commander files to your SH3 Commander/cfg directory? If you did, you will see the NYGM CMM option. This should be selected. The other changes are added though the other SH3 Commander files included in the package.

Oops - must have missed something in the readme files - I don't remember doing anything to the SH3 Commander folder, just added the mod files into the game directory using JSGME - guess I better go re-read those files again :oops:

[Payoff]

I have noticed my Officers with German cross in gold are still "uber". Crew rank is now in German. Any way to get this back to English?

[Observer]

I have noticed my Officers with German cross in gold are still "uber".

I feared this. Thanks for the feedback. I think this will take a bit more testing, fortunately it's easy to do.

Crew rank is now in German. Any way to get this back to English?

The easiest way is to use the option in SH3 Commander.

[bert8for3]

I'd like to try this, but apologies as I can't figure out the install. If I'm using SH3Cmdr, do I just replace the files that unpack into the SH3Cmdr file folder? Or do I have to do something with the other (NYGM mgt) folder also?

[panthercules]

I'd like to try this, but apologies as I can't figure out the install. If I'm using SH3Cmdr, do I just replace the files that unpack into the SH3Cmdr file folder? Or do I have to do something with the other (NYGM mgt) folder also?

IIRC, when you unzip the downloaded NYGM mod file, you wind up with two main folders (NYGM and SH3 Commander) - you need to put the NYGM folder's files into the game's program file folders (it's probably best/easiest to use the JSGME mod installer to do that but you can do it manually if you want), and you also need to put the mod's SH3 Commander folder's files into the Sh3 Commander program file folders (I forgot this last part my first time around, and therefore couldn't choose the NYGM fatigue model from the SH3 Commander drop down menu).

Good luck and good hunting!

[panthercules]

U-55, Type VIIB - Feindfahrt 7 after action report:

Just completed my first patrol with this NYGM crew management mod (and second with the NYGM ship sinking mod) - using them with IUB 1.02 and SH3 Commander 2.4.

Got great results with the ship sinking mod, again. Found nothing but single contacts this time out - sank one C2 and two C3s with torps, and a Schlepper and trawler with gunfire. All were very cool sinkings with intriguing uncertainty regarding whether they would actually sink or not (got nervous waiting so close to Scapa Flow for one C3 to sink so I finished it off with one last torp that broke her in half with a very satisfying explosion - the other 2 big ships went down slowly with nice flooding and up-ending effects, one of which finally sank just as I was in the process of coming about to finish her off with my stern tube).

My last victim (the trawler) had the bad luck to be spotted just as the wind dropped down momentarily to 7m/s (for the first time in 2 weeks and the last time until I got within 50km of home) so I could use my gun (I was out of torps and heading home at that point). I surfaced a little too early, and the tricky bugger changed course and tried to ram me, but a couple of well placed HE shells into her wheelhouse at point blank range (and a timely order for ahead flank and right full rudder) foiled her plans and she burned and sank shortly thereafter.

I'm not quite as sure about the NYGM crew management mod, after just this one patrol, but I'm gonna give it another shot on my next patrol. I like the concept a lot, but in practice it still felt like I was having to micromanage my crew a lot to get it to work right. It did work better than the RUB model did on my last patrol, in which all my guys were basically exhausted after only about 7-10 days (and without any particularly strenuous/dangerous/stressful encounters), even on their 6th patrol together.

One thing I noticed and found unfortunate was that the mod seems to have disabled the ability to move crew in/out of the engine rooms by selecting the room name and right clicking on the men and stuff - kinda made it hard to try to swap out people in full shifts like I was hoping to be able to do. Also, I had a lot of "trouble" with phantom crew moving back and forth between the two engine rooms - i.e., seemed like there were always a couple of crew too many after a switch between engines (I'd drag the extra 2 into the currently unused engine room, then when I switched engines (surfacing or diving) there'd be another 2 blue/phantom guys in the wrong room and I would have to drag them out again.

I also noticed that even with a torp-qualified senior officer with an iron cross (not a super one) and two torp-qualified petty officers and a room full of seamen (all of whom started at full stat bars), I still couldn't get the green bar in the forward torpedo room over about 20% full, whereas the aft torpedo room green bar was almost full with those same guys (fewer seamen of course). The time/numbers on the torp reloading though seemed to be pretty reasonable though, so I guess I'll just have to get used to ignoring the green bar as suggested in one of the posts above.

I did like that the fatigue (and recovery) effects seemed to still work all the way up to 256 TC, but they appeared to cut out at 512 TC - is there a way to keep them working at 512 TC? Would setting the 3D screen TC settings in SH3 Commander to 512 do that, or is it coded some other way in the mod?

All-in-all, a great effort on both these mods that I believe is going to add a lot to the SH3 experience - congrats and thanks for a job well done! :up:

[bert8for3]

I'd like to try this, but apologies as I can't figure out the install. If I'm using SH3Cmdr, do I just replace the files that unpack into the SH3Cmdr file folder? Or do I have to do something with the other (NYGM mgt) folder also?

IIRC, when you unzip the downloaded NYGM mod file, you wind up with two main folders (NYGM and SH3 Commander) - you need to put the NYGM folder's files into the game's program file folders (it's probably best/easiest to use the JSGME mod installer to do that but you can do it manually if you want), and you also need to put the mod's SH3 Commander folder's files into the Sh3 Commander program file folders (I forgot this last part my first time around, and therefore couldn't choose the NYGM fatigue model from the SH3 Commander drop down menu).

Good luck and good hunting!

Tks much.

[Der Teddy Bar]

panthercules,
Thankyou for the feedback.

I also recently had a coastal merchant sink when I was literally seconds away from using a Coup De Grace.

The NYGM CM Mod does not remove the management part. What is does, is make the management of your crew through Morale loss and Morale gain something worthwhile and interesting.

In good weather it all runs very smoothly and it is simply a matter of rotating the crew, but when the wind picks up and the bridge watch tire quicker then you will eventually need to decide if you should rest the entire crew now or push on, if you push on and the crew doesn't have enough efficiency will you maybe loose a kill as they took too long to load a torpedo.

Also, your success 'boosts' the crew's morale making you part of the system. If you decide to go toe to toe with a ship and your crew gets wounded or killed it will cause the morale to drop, again, you are part of the system.

For me, the changing of the crew is mundane, but the overall experience is great.

[panthercules]

Just a couple of questions still at this point while I'm out getting used to this on my second patrol with it. Is there anything that can be done about the weird extra-crew behavior when switching from diesel to electrics and back again? And was it necessary, to get the results you wanted, to disable the ability to select the engine room names and switch crew in/out by right clicking on the men or the room names, or was that just some unintended consequence of something that could be corrected without screwing up what you're trying to do here? I would like to try to get some sort of 2-watch cycle going but it would be a lot easier if you didn't have to actually drag each man individually into and out of the compartments.

Still only single ship contacts on this patrol in terms of encounters (actually got a task force and a convoy report fairly close but was unable to catch up with either one of them), so I haven't really had an extended engagement in which to assess the results of the crew fatigue model where I needed to keep particular men on station over any long period of time. Hopefully that will change when I get back out there later tonight.

[Observer]

Just a couple of questions still at this point while I'm out getting used to this on my second patrol with it. Is there anything that can be done about the weird extra-crew behavior when switching from diesel to electrics and back again? And was it necessary, to get the results you wanted, to disable the ability to select the engine room names and switch crew in/out by right clicking on the men or the room names, or was that just some unintended consequence of something that could be corrected without screwing up what you're trying to do here? I would like to try to get some sort of 2-watch cycle going but it would be a lot easier if you didn't have to actually drag each man individually into and out of the compartments.

The easy way to handle this is to only use Warrant officers in the Neutral zone. When you place seamen in this zone, SH3 will automatically place them in the operating engine room. This behavior cannot be changed.

Information about this behavior is in the "Crew Management - addendum.doc". This is the relevant section:

1. In general this mod is designed for two watch sections (port and starboard), however it's based on an 18 hour model (at full morale) so the crew won't get too tired. Crew members will tire faster in the engine rooms and bridge, and the bridge will tire faster in poor weather. Crew members in the bow torpedo room will tire 3x faster than any other compartment, though this compartment isn't normally manned. Keep this in mind when submerging though because it is the default location for the bridge crew. The engine room not in use is a "neutral zone". This means crew members will not recover efficiency in this room, but also will not lose it.

Quirk: Avoid putting seamen in the neutral zone. Any time you save the patrol, or exit and save, seamen in the neutral zone will be moved into the active engine room. This is a SH3 behavior I haven't figured out how to turn off. I'm not even sure turning it off is a good idea. You can avoid this quirk two ways: only put warrant officers without a machinist badge in the neutral zone (such as the medic) or put seamen/warrant officers in the stern torpedo room. Crew members occupying unintended slots will be outlined in blue and have a red circle & slash designation. These crew members should be moved to another slot or compartment.


The double click feature was disabled because when SH3 auto fills the engine room, it fills all 8 spaces even though only 5 crew members are needed. You would have to drag and drop three of the crew members back out of the space. It's a matter of pick your poison.

If you don't like this behavior, you could try removing the changes in the menu_1024_768.ini made in section 4 and 5 of the "Crew Management Mod Menu_1024_768.ini Mod Instructions.txt" included in the mod package. You don't have to include any of the changes in this file. If you like just the hidden spaces, only make the changes in Sections 1, 2 and 3.

This is the text for reference:

\\Copy and paste each section into the corresponding section in the menu_1024_768.ini. If you don't feel comfortable making the changes, send me your menu_1024_768.ini and I will make the changes.\\
\\These instructions are broken into 6 sections: (use the notepad find feature and search on each section to find the relevant changes)\\
\\1. Section 1 (Diesel Engine Room)\\
\\2. Section 2 (Electric Engine Room)\\
\\3. Section 3 (Damage Control Room)\\
\\4. Section 4 (Disable Diesel Engine Room Auto Crew Switch)\\
\\5. Section 5 (Disable Electric Engine Room Auto Crew Switch)\\
\\6. Section 6 (Disable Damage Control Room Auto Crew Switch and Crew Management Buttons)\\

[panthercules]

Ahh - thanks for the reminder about that no-seamen thing.

I understand about the double-click method not working because of the over-filling issue you explain below. However, can you disable the double-click behavior without disabling the single/right click method? If you turn the double-click thingy back on and just don't actually use a double click, will it screw up the automatic switching back and forth between diesels and electrics as you dive/surface?

I guess I may try turning some of those things off to see if I can at least use the right click on individual crewmen method even if switching out the entire compartment at once won't work because of the over-filling problem - for some reason, especially at higher TC, it just seems easier to send a guy to the compartment by highlighting the room name and then right clicking the guy than by dragging him all the way over to the room (especially if you have 3 or 4 guys to do that with). I'll experiment a little with it tonight and see how things work.

Thanks again for the info.

[Observer]

Ahh - thanks for the reminder about that no-seamen thing.

I understand about the double-click method not working because of the over-filling issue you explain below. However, can you disable the double-click behavior without disabling the single/right click method? If you turn the double-click thingy back on and just don't actually use a double click, will it screw up the automatic switching back and forth between diesels and electrics as you dive/surface?

Not the way I've done it. It's pretty much an all or nothing thing. The adjustments to the menu_1024_768.ini turn off the hotspot and replace it with text. In order to keep the one feature and remove another you have to change the code. The menu_1024_768.ini only changes the layout of the graphics one the screen, not the underlying code. If I could change the code to keep, say, the right click feature and remove the double click fill feature, I would rather (and it would be easier) to just change the number of slots in the compartment and eliminate the whole problem.

[panthercules]

Ahh - well, I noticed last night that putting only warrant officers in the "neutral" engine room still didn't work - if there were seamen in the working engine room there were still problems upon switching engines - I think that stopped when I cut back so there were no more than 2 seamen in the working engine room (and none in the other room).

I did finally manage to find and sink something last night (after stalking a couple of destroyers for a while until I realized that's what they were, and then being dogged by an armed schlepper through several encounters and a couple of brief gunfire exchanges), but it was just a lone coastal freighter so I still haven't had a chance to see the effects of this mod during an extended encounter like a convoy or something.

So far though, I am liking the fact that the fatigue continues at higher TC and that it is possible for people to regenerate. And the fatigue rate seems to be much more reasonable than how I remember the stock game's model being (though it's been a while since I used that model), which seemed to have my guys getting really tired in just a couple of hours if I used low level TC. Just gonna take some more getting used to I guess to get the hang of how to set up some sort of reasonable shift rotation.

I've been experimenting with using SH3 Commander to give watchmen qualifications to my seamen so I can tell who are supposed to be on my watch crew shifts - I think I may try the same thing for the seamen I use in the engine room and the control room - I'm assuming that the game (and this NYGM mod) still doesn't give any effect to qualifications given to seamen, so doing this will just be for visual convenience and won't screw up the working of the fatigue model - is that correct?

[edit] Just cranked up the TC setting for 3D screens in SH3 Commander to 512 and tested it out in game - the fatigue does continue now at 512TC. And my watch crew did get exhausted after about 5-6 hours in heavy seas - very cool :)

[Observer]

Let me be a little more specific on how I use the neutral room. I'd post a screen shot, but I don't have one handy.

I've found the best way to use the neutral room on the Type VII is to only put warrant officers (not machinist qualified) in there. I use the hidden slots (three of them) for these guys, then have the following configuration in the working engine room:

1 machinist qualified warrant officer
4 seamen

When I surface or submerge, these guys will all switch to the other room, then I drag the three extra warrants to the other engine room.

If you'd like a screen shot I can post one up.

[panthercules]

Interesting - but I see that even this way there wind up being people in the "hidden" slots that you have to move around each time (something I was trying to figure out how to avoid). I'll have to experiment some more to see whether cutting down to only 2 seamen in the engine room will keep working or whether I was just lucky a couple of times the other night.

As an alternative - is there any way to disable the fatigue drain in the aft torpedo room, to create that as a neutral zone? There's hardly ever anybody in there (at least on my Type VII) except to load the occasional single torpedo, which only takes maybe 10-12 minutes so how tired can they get in there anyway. That way you could stash your extra guys in the aft torp room and not have to have any extra guys in the engine rooms to keep dragging in and out - what do you think?

[Observer]

Putting guys in hidden spaces in the neutral zone doesn't really bother me because they are not doing anything. It's a neutral zone after all! :) I also recognize it as a limitation of the SH3 programming.

It is possible to create the stern torpedo room as a neutral zone, but I'll have to think on it before doing so.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Putting guys in hidden spaces in the neutral zone doesn't really bother me because they are not doing anything. It's a neutral zone after all! :) I also recognize it as a limitation of the SH3 programming.

It is possible to create the stern torpedo room as a neutral zone, but I'll have to think on it before doing so.
While not a bad idea for the VII the IX has lots of rear torpedos :-?

[panthercules]

Just wrapped up for the night - managed to find and sink a large cargo off the western approaches - first ship in forever that was actually zig zagging for no apparent reason - made setting up for the approach much more challenging and was really nice for a change. Anyway, somehow both torps in my first salvo missed, but I had given myself time to get second shot at her just in case and my next 2 torps both slammed home between the bridge and the engine room. Two very nice explosions, though no secondary fire or smoke or anything. However, she fairly quickly coasted to a stop and started settling slowly by the stern and listing slightly to port, and soon after I lost the ability to target her in my scope (I was trying to check the range before turning around to bring my stern tube to bear for a possible coup de grace and it wouldn't let me) - it was weird - just like she wasn't there (or was already sunk, though she was still well afloat at that point).

On a hunch, I checked my log and sure enough it was showing me as having sunk a large cargo, even though I had not gotten any indication from the crew about a ship being destroyed. Normally I would have waited around to see if she would sink without a coup de grace, but I figured since the game seemed to think she was gone already I might be waiting a long time for nothing. I decided to go ahead and hit her with my stern torp on the theory that I didn't want to stick around and that's what I would have done before heading off that soon, and I was rewarded with another nice explosion, a crew cheer and the sight of her finally going under as I headed away at high speed on the surface.

Anyway, back to the subject. No matter what combination of crew types I had in the engine rooms, if I put anybody in the inactive engine room I always had extra blue men to mess around with. I tried just sticking my extra couple of guys in the aft torpedo room, so I only had 5 guys in the engine room, and that worked great - they all just switched back and forth like a charm and I never had to worry about the blue guys. (Except for some reason when I had my machinist officer in the room - when he was in there things got all screwed up again when they switched engine rooms). Of course, the guys in the aft torp room got kinda tired that way, but I was just testing the theory.

Even if you decide not to do it for your official version, maybe you could let me know how it's done and I can just make my own aft torp room a neutral zone for myself?

I had pretty good luck setting up a 12-hour rotation between two shifts this time around, and with the TC cranked up on the 3D screens I could sit there on the crew management screen and watch the guys get tired instead of watching my sub icon crawl across the nav map all the time - I had never thought of cranking that particular setting up until I read the readme file for this mod - this whole mod test has been well worth it just for that little tidbit alone :)

Thanks, and keep up the good work!