If we ever get VLS ships, what do you want for the interface

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

OK. I completely understand the "new ship" situation here. We are not going to get any ships until Sonalysts decides its good and ready, and it is illegal to try and mod for it ourselves (not that I'd know how). But we might as well do occasional input in the meantime to increase our probability of satisfaction when it does come.

But what do you want for the interface in a situation where there are lots of weapons to handle?

For example, we finally get the VLS Ohio with its 154 TLAMs. If we use an interface like the present ones, it'd be a veritable nightmare where we set waypoints for 154 missiles, making sure your final designation is accurate each and every time.

Then we hit the launch screen and we push P 154 times. Probably there isn't enough space to put the control buttons for 154 tubes on one screen, so we'd have to alternate b/w screens. Then we go back to the first missile and push M to open all the doors. Then we run back again and launch all 154 of them.

Does this sound like fun to you?

Or how about if we get the VLS Tico. Obviously, to keep the challenge the number of ASM/SSM that will be flung at the ship simultaneously will go up geometrically. Do you really want to engage dozens of SSMs using similar interfaces that we have for the Perry now.

So, what kind of new buttons and automation would we want to keep our mice from breaking? It is a long way off but we might as well start now. Discuss.

Thank you for your time and attention.

[UglyMowgli]

I just imagine the lag in MP when 154 missile fly, with just 8 missiles + some SAM this is a nightmare in MP :rotfl:

[goldorak]

We will not have the problems you are mentioning mainly because of the fact that if SCS releases future add-ons the main priority will be to add russian ships/air units which are the equivalent of the american frigate and p-3.
So no ticonderogas missile launchers, no super duper submarines capable of launching 300 missiles etc... you get my point.
Right now there is a blue advantage in terms of air/surface units; with future add-ons we need to have an equilibrium between red side and blue side.

[Bellman]

Sorry KS - dont want any part of that. :o :huh: :stare: :nope:

If I want to carpet bomb missiles I will load up Fleet Command or Harpoon.
But I find it a pretty sterile gameing experience. :yep: :down: :arrgh!: :damn:

Thanks...............................but no thanks. :dead:

[Sea Demon]

the fact that if SCS releases future add-ons the main priority will be to add russian ships/air units which are the equivalent of the american frigate and p-3.
So no ticonderogas missile launchers, no super duper submarines capable of launching 300 missiles etc... you get my point.


You have no idea what the priority will be for SCS. They might just happen to build an Aegis add-on pack....and be successful with it.

SD

[goldorak]

You have no idea what the priority will be for SCS. They might just happen to build an Aegis add-on pack....and be successful with it.

SD


Maybe, but reading this forum since the game was released it was obvious that most of us want a balanced choice in terms of units for red and blue side.
SCS can do what it wishes, but since they seem at least to listen to their potential customers I don't think I'm off mark making the assomption about russian surface ships/ helo/ aircraft.
The last thing I want to see is a blue side so powerful in terms of units that the game looses its challenge and it becomes another frag fest.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Yes, I am aware that most of this group (including me) want something like a Russian frigate or Western SSK first. However, those would work reasonably well with the current basic interfaces (modified to give the correct feel).

Just the thought of properly using a VLS ship with the current interfaces is another reason to delay it IMO.

However, my question is, and I'd really appreciate it if the interested people (seeing there are also requests for Aegis ships and Ohio SSGNs IIRC) would answer that, is if we are going to have a Aegis ship, what would you like the interface to be? Do you want it to be something like now, only w/ more weapons, or what.

After all, if you ask me, just getting off a 6-12 LAM missile strike with the waypoints is already a bit of a chore, as is handling air defence on a Perry.

[timmyg00]

I think the more appropriate questions that should be asked with regards to these systems is "what do the real interfaces look like? How does the missile combat system's functionality affect the interface design?"

It's not realistic to expect that the real VLS ships have their weapon waypoints entered one missile at a time; it's more likely that they receive such targeting information via satellite or other data link in the form of a "target package" that can be downloaded into the combat system, and from there, each missile receives its waypoints (that's how it was done on my boat ;) ) Launching is probably similarly controlled en masse, or missile-by-missile, by the combat system.

TG

[Oberon]

To be able to switch on the panel with a key like in Fast Attack. It may not be so realistic, but boy it was fun!

[Kapitan]

five me an arliegh burke and what these guys want and il shut up FULL STOP now that must be an ensentive

[Oberon]

five me an arliegh burke and what these guys want and il shut up FULL STOP now that must be an ensentive

Only if you use your shift key ;) :lol:

[Apocal]

I think the more appropriate questions that should be asked with regards to these systems is "what do the real interfaces look like? How does the missile combat system's functionality affect the interface design?"

It's not realistic to expect that the real VLS ships have their weapon waypoints entered one missile at a time; it's more likely that they receive such targeting information via satellite or other data link in the form of a "target package" that can be downloaded into the combat system, and from there, each missile receives its waypoints (that's how it was done on my boat ;) ) Launching is probably similarly controlled en masse, or missile-by-missile, by the combat system.

TG

Timmy is correct!

So no ticonderogas missile launchers, no super duper submarines capable of launching 300 missiles etc... you get my point.

Well, the Russians have their own VLS (revolver style) and SSGNs, so it's a valid question either way.

[Sea Demon]

You have no idea what the priority will be for SCS. They might just happen to build an Aegis add-on pack....and be successful with it.

SD

Maybe, but reading this forum since the game was released it was obvious that most of us want a balanced choice in terms of units for red and blue side.
SCS can do what it wishes, but since they seem at least to listen to their potential customers I don't think I'm off mark making the assomption about russian surface ships/ helo/ aircraft.
The last thing I want to see is a blue side so powerful in terms of units that the game looses its challenge and it becomes another frag fest.

You may just be right, sir. I gotta admit, I'd love to be able to drive around a Kirov, Udaloy, or Helix Helo. I'm just saying none of us knows what SCS is planning for the future or what their priorities are for possible future game expansion. As most know here my first choice is an AEGIS type ship (Tico/AB). Next a Western Diesel ala 212 or Collins. Maybe the new Type 45 ship from the UK. But with what you're saying, I do agree. It would also be nice from a multi-player perspective to get a Russian Frigate and Helo to balance out the FFG-7 and Seahawk. I'd certainly purchase an add-on that included only Russian units. The possibilities for expansion seem limitless. But at this time, we don't know what SCS is thinking for DW's future. Hopefully they're generating the expected sales to drive an expansion pack.


Sea Demon

[LuftWolf]

Argh! :hulk:

When will people realize that there will never be an AEGIS ship in Dangerous Waters.

That would require a whole new simulator. DW is simply not good as a model of AEGIS because the radar and EW model is much too simple and the operation of the link is nothing at all like what a networked AEGIS platform would have (the "link" system in that game would be a WHOLE STATION onto itself, perhaps with multiple subscreens). The only result of throwing in a AEGIS vessel in DW would be to have a ship that is a FFG with more missiles.

Modelling an AEGIS platform to any degree that would make it worth it in a game like Dangerous Waters would require a whole new simulator engine or major additions to the NavalSimEngine, in other words a whole new game.

Any future addons for DW will be Red surface and air, and hopefully a Blue diesel.

And it won't be until SCS has made some *profit* from DW.

[Sea Demon]

When will people realize that there will never be an AEGIS ship in Dangerous Waters.

That would require a whole new simulator.

Dangerous Waters would require a whole new simulator engine or major additions to the NavalSimEngine, in other words a whole new game.

Any future addons for DW will be Red surface and air, and hopefully a Blue diesel.

And it won't be until SCS has made some *profit* from DW.

You never know. There are ways they could implement this in the game. They could write an executable that changes things in the engine enough to accomodate new interfaces.

SCS has already planned an AEGIS simulator but instead decided to proceed with Fleet Command. So that shows they already had this AEGIS concept in mind for a PC based simulator. But the fact they went ahead with Fleet Command may show that there were inherent difficulties in implementing such a complex naval platform into a PC game with some degree of fidelity. I just don't know. I never understood fully why they went the Fleet Command direction.

At any rate, like I said, I wouldn't mind seeing balance in terms of Red surface and air units. But if you want a total multi-mission surface ship, AEGIS (Tico/AB) is the way to go. I don't see it as a platform that just has more missiles. It flatly can do alot of the same as the Perry but also a heck of alot more. It would give you so much more in terms of all types of surface action. Believe it or not, some of us here like to play on the surface, and would love to have a much more capable platform to do more in the game.

Sea Demon

[Kapitan]

i train in the perry with a guy i basicaly call an ACE he knows the perry inside out;

we can fire off an average of 15 missiles in 1;30seconds (think have to re time it)

we can deploy helos on quick launch in 1:43

radar missiles ready in less than 3 minuets

cause we use the rule 10 mins weps hold and 2 hour max play we need quick launch helos, thats the only one we do use but tis great fun would swap my 22 year old perry for a nice new burke any day

[Fitz62STG]

The AEGIS simulation would be very difficult as they would have to model the radar environment in detail like the ocean environment is, which in my opinion can go way deeper. But, that is the way of video games. You can never have everything you want.

If we were to make everything more realistic we would have to take the MK 13 launcher off of the FFG first. No FFG in the USN has the single arm bandit anymore. So no more SM-1s (SM-2s in the game) and no more harpoons. It has been capped over and is but a scar on the forecastle of the FFGs now. The sensor suites are still the same, but the warfare capabilities are much different.

[Kapitan]

perrys have been downrated havnt they? from FFG to ocean escort?

[TLAM Strike]

perrys have been downrated havnt they? from FFG to ocean escort? They are still FFGs since the helo can fire AGM-119Bs.

... yea I know it dosn't make any sense but thats how it is... :roll:

[Fitz62STG]

perrys have been downrated havnt they? from FFG to ocean escort?

Technically they would still be a FF. With the removal of the launcher they can't be a "G" anymore.

[Fitz62STG]

perrys have been downrated havnt they? from FFG to ocean escort? They are still FFGs since the helo can fire AGM-119Bs.

... yea I know it dosn't make any sense but thats how it is... :roll:

It actually has to be a shipborne indigenous capability. They have to have an AAW missile capable of (x) range to be considered a FFG. Same applies for all ships. They have to have an AAW missile with a great enough range to get the "G" added to there designation. For example Spruance class DDs had Seasparrow SAM with a range of ~7nm but they didn't get the tag of DDG, but the Kidd class did because they has the SM-2 with a range of ~50nm.

[TLAM Strike]

perrys have been downrated havnt they? from FFG to ocean escort? They are still FFGs since the helo can fire AGM-119Bs.

... yea I know it dosn't make any sense but thats how it is... :roll:

It actually has to be a shipborne indigenous capability. They have to have an AAW missile capable of (x) range to be considered a FFG. Same applies for all ships. They have to have an AAW missile with a great enough range to get the "G" added to there designation. For example Spruance class DDs had Seasparrow SAM with a range of ~7nm but they didn't get the tag of DDG, but the Kidd class did because they has the SM-2 with a range of ~50nm.
Apparently the US Navy doesn’t know that since the OHPs are still FFGs according to them. :lol:

[Mau]

So that is why I was saying, why not a type 23, a Brandenburg or the excellent Halifax class. Those are current and are not way more complex than the OHP (in terms of game interface) and they have essentially the same role. All have Harpoons, two has Evolved Sea Sparrows and the other one has Sea wolfs

But unfortunately those platforms are not Americans........
But pleasewhy not???

[Sea Demon]

So that is why I was saying, why not a type 23, a Brandenburg or the excellent Halifax class. Those are current and are not way more complex than the OHP (in terms of game interface) and they have essentially the same role. All have Harpoons, two has Evolved Sea Sparrows and the other one has Sea wolfs

But unfortunately those platforms are not Americans........
But pleasewhy not???

Yep. Canadians have alot ot be proud of in the Halifax ships. :up:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

If we were to make everything more realistic we would have to take the MK 13 launcher off of the FFG first. No FFG in the USN has the single arm bandit anymore.

Oh no. Why, why, why, why, why!

This would mean it has no air defense except for a gun and CIWS, and no real antiship ability. Great, now it can't go even against missile boats!

[RedDevilCG]

While were at it, why don't we model in a Victoria Class diesel submarine for our western diesel? Sounds like they have great potential to ruin someones day.

[Kapitan]

what do you expect they been sitting rusting in a dock for gawd knows how many years.

canada had the option of buying the Upholder or the brand new type 212/214 few million in cost diffrence

personaly id have bought the german units after all they will last longer and saving alot of money i mean where do you get the parts for an old banger nowdays?

[Apocal]

If we were to make everything more realistic we would have to take the MK 13 launcher off of the FFG first. No FFG in the USN has the single arm bandit anymore.

Oh no. Why, why, why, why, why!

This would mean it has no air defense except for a gun and CIWS, and no real antiship ability. Great, now it can't go even against missile boats!

Because, in real life, the SM-1 just wasn't a terribly effective weapon and cost too much to maintain the support and training pipeline for the one-arm bandit. Same with the two-arm bandit, they were keeping a pipeline open for five ships, so they got rid of those ships. That being said, anti-ship missile defense capability of the OHPs is probably better now, since they got Nulkas on-board.

Of course, the proposed Mk 13 mod, firing dual-pack RAMs in addition to Nulka would have been even better, but the bottomline is the bottom line.

Apparently the US Navy doesn’t know that since the OHPs are still FFGs according to them.

Costs too much to change the hull classification. Although it was a running joke for awhile that the Navy had DDs with guided missiles (the Sprucans) and guided missile frigates without.

[Kapitan]

why dont they insert a plug and put VLS missiles in thier only a few that way you could extend the life of the ship another 20 years and have a more modern feel to it.

or replace the lot entirely

[Fitz62STG]

why dont they insert a plug and put VLS missiles in thier only a few that way you could extend the life of the ship another 20 years and have a more modern feel to it.

or replace the lot entirely

I believe the whole thinking behind that is any upgrades like that would not be cost effective as I think the longest a OHP is projected to stay around is like 2013 or 2014. The Littoral Combat Ship will fill the role of the OHP and from what I have read it is not armed with AAW missiles such as the SM-2, but with a combination point defense (RAM) and ESSM (Super Whamidine Sea Sparrows).

Putting in a small VLS for say ESSM would be a good short range air defense fix for them. For the size of the launcher cap and the magazine below it you could probably plug in 4 to 6 VLS cells with 4 ESSM in each cell. But, the money is the issue. Money is spent just to keep them going until the end of their projected / extended service life.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Because, in real life, the SM-1 just wasn't a terribly effective weapon

It is still a whole lot better than nothing.

and cost too much to maintain the support and training pipeline for the one-arm bandit.

With dozens of Perrys still alive?

now, since they got Nulkas on-board.

What Nulka? Looks it up...

Oh, so instead of hard intercepts, they are going to put their prayers in soft defenses. The toy (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-53.htm) doesn't even have IR jamming. I understand that at least a few SSM and ASMs are incorporating IR/IIR homing as an option... there are also ASMs with passive radar homing capability - that toy might just attract everyone with its jamming - the first wave goes for the toy, but the second wave hits when the jamming goes down and the ship itself is unmasked...

Not to mention according to the site they'd basically be installing it on everyone but the Perrys...

Perrys are supposed to be cheap units, but the men cost as much as the ones anywhere else I would think.

[Kapitan]

the perry frigate is still a good effective unit although age is creaping up on them, i was assigned to U.S.S Robert G Bradley FFG-49 in seawolves so i done some back ground on it.

the units them selves are highly capible ASW units and have limited self defence capibilitys, however they could be compaired to a british type 23 although more modern is the brit ship, they still both have very good uses and the perry should still be active for a while yet.

id hope to see a perry around in 2020 it can be done with tiawan or another 3rd world country so it be nice to see them last.

[Apocal]

why dont they insert a plug and put VLS missiles in thier only a few that way you could extend the life of the ship another 20 years and have a more modern feel to it.

or replace the lot entirely

The FFGs won't last another 20 years without a major overhaul and the USN isn't going to spend the kind of money for that on a platform who's mission went away with the Cold War.

It is still a whole lot better than nothing.

Not really... even with the CORT upgrades it was only a middling effective against seaskimming missiles, even subsonic ones. And CORT was expensive enough that only eleven (IIRC) FFGs received it along with the SM-1 Blk VI.

With dozens of Perrys still alive?

Yep. Majority of them weren't shooting missiles that could take down any threat imagined. It was in the uncomfortable middle ground of costing what a system should, but not providing the capability a system should. The Underwood types had capability, but keeping the Mk. 13 pipeline open just for them was cost-prohibitive.

What Nulka? Looks it up...

Oh, so instead of hard intercepts, they are going to put their prayers in soft defenses. The toy doesn't even have IR jamming. I understand that at least a few SSM and ASMs are incorporating IR/IIR homing as an option... there are also ASMs with passive radar homing capability - that toy might just attract everyone with its jamming - the first wave goes for the toy, but the second wave hits when the jamming goes down and the ship itself is unmasked...

They still carry flares and they have more than one Nulka onboard. It's an expendable asset, like super rocs. Passive only missiles are easy to deal with by turning off your emitters.

id hope to see a perry around in 2020 it can be done with tiawan or another 3rd world country so it be nice to see them last.

Given that there are still WW2-era Gearing-class destroyers around, I think you'll get your wish of seeing a OHP in 2020.

[TLAM Strike]

Oh, so instead of hard intercepts, they are going to put their prayers in soft defenses. The toy (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-53.htm) doesn't even have IR jamming. I understand that at least a few SSM and ASMs are incorporating IR/IIR homing as an option... there are also ASMs with passive radar homing capability - that toy might just attract everyone with its jamming - the first wave goes for the toy, but the second wave hits when the jamming goes down and the ship itself is unmasked... Did you know the majority of ASM attacks that have been thwarted were by "Soft Kills"? In the Falklands RN ships both Jammed and Spoofed (chaffed) Exocets, and in Operation Praying Mantis a USN ship (might have been a Fig7) spoofed an Iranian Harpoon with chaff. I think there has been only one hard kill with a SAM in the history of naval warfare (a Type 42 against a Silkworm in the Gulf War). :hmm: :ping:

[LuftWolf]

We sure have built a lot of weapons in the past 50 years that have never really been used at all or anywhere near their capacity during actual combat... :hmm:

[RedDevilCG]

Actually, I think that the Victoria Class Diesel SSK would be an insane unit in DW.

Here is a good overview of the boat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Class

Some notes that I found surprising:
-"operation noise while running diesel were comparable to a SSN"!
- Has 6 torpedo tubes armed with the Mk 48 Torp!
- Towed array!
-Mast operation at 12kts

I would take this over any other sub in DW for ocean hunting.

[TLAM Strike]

We sure have built a lot of weapons in the past 50 years that have never really been used at all or anywhere near their capacity during actual combat... :hmm: Thats not nessarly a bad thing... ;)

[Mocbo]

Luftwolf:You say a real Word.
None of the VLS Systems or BlockIII Standard Missiles have been used real Combat conditions for multiple Hardkills. The CIWS too.
The Same is it with the whole Russian Big Anti Ship Cruise Missiles.
Only in Games like Harpoon , Fleet Command or DW are used these Weapons . The Real Power signs on a Real Battlefield not in a Game. Only Thomahawks ( TLAM variant) have been used and somtimes the 76 mm Guns on the Ships.
Nor real modern Torpedo has hit a modern Real Sub etc....

The actual Iran Conflict can do to use the Weapons REAL....

Greetings

Moc

[TLAM Strike]

The CIWS has been used in combat; it was the one on an Iowa class battleship. It didn't hit the missile (the bullets hit another US ship :oops: ) but the missile was shot down by a RN type 42 DDG.

Modern torpedoes have been used in combat. In the Falklands the ARA San Luis made several attacks on RN warships with no hits. Also the ARA Santa Fe got some homing torpedoes (Stingrays?) from a Wasp shot at it but they only succeeded in forcing the ship to beach when some AS-12 missiles blew a hole in her conning tower. And in the 60-70s a Pakistani sub fired several homing torpedoes on a Indian Frigate with one finally scoring a hit.

[Apocal]

The CIWS has been used in combat; it was the one on an Iowa class battleship. It didn't hit the missile (the bullets hit another US ship :oops: ) but the missile was shot down by a RN type 42 DDG.

It hit the super-roc (chaff) fired by the Iowa. Normally, this wouldn't wouldn't happen, but Iowa fired her super-roc in the general direction of a ship which (stupidly) hadn't set firing sectors so CIWS decided it was a threat and blasted it.