Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Beta 0.1.36 Bug Fixed

[Der Teddy Bar]

Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Beta 0.1.36-1 (http://rapidshare.de/files/11916026/SHIII_Not_Your_Grand_Mothers_Ship_Damage_Mod_Beta_ 1_0.1.36-1.zip.html)

This fixes an issue with the Hospital and Large Cargo ships

The overall aim of the Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod was to make ships ‘sink’… and not just run out of HP’s i.e. Hit Points.

The Not Your Grand Mother's Ship Sinking Mod does not aim nor intend to make it harder to sink ships than it was historically. It cannot be denied that the Not Your Grand Mother's Ship Sinking Mod does make it more challenging to sink ships than it was in the stock game, but I am sure that even the most ardent Silent Hunter III fan will acknowledge that the sinking of ships in the standard game is at the gamey end of the realism scale.

READ the READ Me file included. If I think that you have not read the read me file I will simply not reply.

The Read Me file also contains very important data on how it all works so that you may get better results from this Mod.

There is not doubt that the occasional quirk where a ship takes excessive torpedoes and shells to sink, or will sink unusually, the same thing happened in real life. So I would ask that before making any wild statements that this or that doesn't work is that you sit back and think about it some more, make sure that it happens again and again and then make sure to support your claim with screen shots and relevant data on torpedo hit location/s etc etc.

This mod is far from perfect. It is however very good considering the limitations imposed by the SHIII format.

How much more can I do? We will have to wait and see what needs to be done and then I'll let you know. There are some very imposing limitations such as 1 set of configuration data may be used by up to 10 ships, and to fix one ship may break 5 others.


The time for the sinking affect, should generally be 1-2 hours at most. It may take longer, I can’t say for sure. I will try and make sure that most sinking occurs well within 2 hours.

Please note that I do not have a diagram of any ships layouts and I am guessing and assuming as much as you are on what compartments are where etc. On the tanker it is my understanding that the tanker is made up of a bow, cargo, cargo, fuel, engine & stern. I feel that under the bridge is cargo space which may be either the front or rear one or is where they meet.

The big question is will I get credit after I have left the area? The answer is yes. I have tested this and have been as far away as 31 kilometres when I have been notified that the ship sunk.

[baxter]

This sounds excellent. I will try it out and give you feedback.

[Marhkimov]

I dunno how much time I can devote to beta testing, but I'm certainly happy to see this mod.

:up:

[Soviet_Warlord]

Cool, I'll happily beta test this weekend between the time spent studying for exams :)

[Camaero]

I have been really wanting this! Will try it ASAP!

[Der Teddy Bar]

A critical hit, i.e. BOOM can only occur through an impact torpedo.

The under keel explosion may cause more damage than a impact torpedo, but it cannot break the back of a ship.

This is a SHIII design feature. The only way a ships back will break is by the critical chance, i.e. a BOOM i.e. impact torpedo.

So as a under keel torpedo can cause more flooding I would suggest using 1 under keel and one impact torpedo.

[Gizzmoe]

Mirror

Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Beta 0.1.36 (http://home.arcor.de/gizzmoe/files/SHIII_Not_Your_Grand_Mothers_Ship_Damage_Mod_Beta_ 1_0.1.36.zip)

[Der Teddy Bar]

Gizzmoe,
You are a legend I tell ya! A legend with a capital L :up:

Just a reminder for some, and maybe a first look for others, of what the Mod is about.

Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Preview #1 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=129;t=001472) Teddy Bär sinks a escort
Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Preview #2 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=129;t=001471) Another merchant for Teddy Bär Lord & Master of the sea!

[Letum]

why does it change the ari base files and the ship names?
Do you need these changes?

[Der Teddy Bar]

why does it change the ari base files and the ship names?
Do you need these changes?
It doesn't change the airbase, what it does do is add the directory LAB_VSmallAirBaseGB. OK, the long story, I did this as when I was first testing the NYGM RUB Campaign Mod my game would crash on start up. I tracked this down to the LAB_VSmallAirBaseGB in the RUB LND file.

As I put a clean install in regularly to test etc I added it to the Mod that I am working on so it is always installed. No need to remove it as it causes no issue.

The ships names, that was what RUB etc uses so I chucked it in there. Not required.

[Letum]

could you please remove all the files that arnt needed for NYGM sinking mod in the next release. I have other mods that use the same files and i dont want to lose them
Cheers

[Salvadoreno]

with this mod are sinking times increased??? Or do they just fly to the bottom like always?

[Soviet_Warlord]

with this mod are sinking times increased??? Or do they just fly to the bottom like always?

Read his previews and you will understand :yep:

[Ducimus]

A critical hit, i.e. BOOM can only occur through an impact torpedo.

The under keel explosion may cause more damage than a impact torpedo, but it cannot break the back of a ship.

This is a SHIII design feature. The only way a ships back will break is by the critical chance, i.e. a BOOM i.e. impact torpedo.

So as a under keel torpedo can cause more flooding I would suggest using 1 under keel and one impact torpedo.


I know im not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but, shouldnt this work the other way around?

http://www.ssbn622.homestead.com/sinkex.html

[Soviet_Warlord]

A critical hit, i.e. BOOM can only occur through an impact torpedo.

The under keel explosion may cause more damage than a impact torpedo, but it cannot break the back of a ship.

This is a SHIII design feature. The only way a ships back will break is by the critical chance, i.e. a BOOM i.e. impact torpedo.

So as a under keel torpedo can cause more flooding I would suggest using 1 under keel and one impact torpedo.


I know im not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but, shouldnt this work the other way around?

http://www.ssbn622.homestead.com/sinkex.html

I agree, how can an impact hit the keel and split the ship better than a magnetic?

[Der Teddy Bar]

RE the Magnetic Vs Impact

Guys I have done nothing other than change the values of the HP and the values of the zones.cfg. I have not, changed any of the SHIII game mechanics. That is, the way that damage is done by a torpedo now is the same as it was for the original game.

I will presume that you have not downloaded the file and thus have not seen the read me file, so I will quote from it...

Edited updating an exception and for better wording....

Torpedo impact verses under keel and Critical Chance
The mainly upward motion of the explosive force from an under keel explosion that is created by the expanding and contracting gasses is not modelled in Silent Hunter III. In spit of this, a torpedo that explodes under a ship may still cause more damage than one that impacts 2 metres above the keel.

However, for a Critical Chance to occur, the torpedo must impact the compartment. the only exception I have seen to this fact is the Small Merchant. A Critical Chance will not occur by non impact torpedo (Note exception). This includes the keel. In game, when using the Auto TDC to target the keel, the Auto TDC aims at 1-2 metres higher than the bottom of the ship and the torpedo impacts upon the ship and does not detonate under it (unless it is a miss). As such, an under keel explosion in Silent Hunter III will not cause a Critical Chance and break the ships back. The only exception I have seen to this fact is the Small Merchant.


In all my testing I have only know one exception to the above rule regarding the magnetic torpedo and breaking the ships back, and that is for the Coastal Merchant.

I quote one of the Dev's
When a critical hit is achieved ("dice" roll based on the critical chance defined, out of 1, in the zones.cfg for the compartment IMPACTED by the torp) the torpedo explosion power is amplified with the multiplier defined there too. The fuel bunker/ammo is something else - the cargo explodes. But the critical may indeed create such an effect.

We are all aware of the perfect result of a magnetic detonated torpedo. How often does a perfect result occur, probably not that often. It depends on the type of ship, the weight of the ship, the location in which it explodes i.e. structural design and/or the cargo/machinery distribution, water temperature anlong with salt content, and last but not least the depth.

After the re-introduction of a working magnetic pistol in Dec 42/Early 43, the reality of the real world effectiveness of the magnetic pistol was a very mixed bag. It could easily break a ships back, it also more often resulted in percussion hits that would not allow the full explosive force of the torpedo to be utilized.

After 3 months of use Karl Doenitz wrote in his BDU...
Up to 15.3 the following definite "MZ" hits had been registered:
a) 31.12.1942 - U 561 (Schomburg) sank destroyer of "Jervis" class in the
Mediterranean. 2 hits were scored with "Pi 2 MZ one" depths 2 and 4 meters.

b) 28.12.1942 - U 260 (Purkhold) attacked North Atlantic convoy. She scored a hit on a
5,000 ton freighter with "Pi 2 MZ one" depth 4 meters, vessel broke up amidships,
sank immediately, hit had great force, slight, low column of water sent up.

c) 8.2.1943 - In Mediterranean U 596 (Jahn) blew an escort vessel of "Bridgewater" class
out of the water with "Pi 2 MZ one" depth 3 meters.

d) 12.2.1943 - U 516 (Wiebe) attacked a 6,000 tonner in South Atlantic. She broke
amidships from a "Pi 2" finishing shot, depth 7.

All other hits with "Pi 2" excepting a few doubtful cases, must be classed as percussion hits.
Only very few self detonators occurred, and in every case when the operational limitations
were not observed.

On the whole, these first results were considered satisfactory, even though the potentialities
of the "Pi 2" were not fully utilized.

[Ducimus]

That acutally explains ALOT of what ive been seeing in game. Thanks.

And yes i havent seen the readme ( I don't D/L anything while at work), although i was looking for it in this thread.

[Letum]

I LOVE this mod.
Here are the sinking reports so far, Ill post more if they wil help you develop the mod

lone Liberty Cargo @ 8knots
Shalow water N of Scapa
90 deg hit aft port
~5m
windspeed 7 x 1.25wave mod
Signs of sinking after 5mins
Aft decks awash after ~17mins
Winspeed increaced to 9 x 1.25wave mod
20mins aft sinks, bow at 90deg in water
rapid sinking

Fiji Cruiser @ 0knots
V.shalow water
90deg hit midships starbord
surface runner
2nd 90deg hit bow/midships starbord +1min after first hit
surface runner
Very calm waters windspeed ~2-3 x1.25 wave mod
small fire on port side of control rooms
Slight list to starbord after 5mins
Starbord decks awash after ~20mins
45deg starbord list after ~40mins followed by capsize and rapid sinking (did not sink compleatly due to shallow water)

T3 @ 8knots
North atlantic convoy
50deg hit amidships port
~6m (presumed impact)
Choppy water windspeed ~8 x 1.25 wavemod
Huge explosion broke up amidships
rapid sinking

Unidentifyed large merchant (not C2 or C3 or Troop transport) @8knots
North atlantic convoy
50deg hit aft port
~6m (presumed impact)
Choppy water windspeed ~8 x 1.25 wavemod
Small explosion aft
Noticed sinking aft after ~30mins
Aft decks awash after ~40mins
Aft decks still awash after ~1hour
Contact lost

Unidentifyed large merchant (not C2 or C3 or Troop transport) @8knots
North atlantic convoy
50deg hit far bow port
surface runner
Choppy water windspeed ~8 x 1.25 wavemod
Slow sinking noticed in bow after 20mins
Contact lost


T3 @ 8knots
North atlantic convoy
50deg hit amidships port
~6m (impact)
Choppy water windspeed ~8 x 1.25 wavemod
Huge Explosion destroys the whole deck
Ship slows down rapidly
Ship sinks evenly after 20mins

C3 @ 8knots makeing evasive manovers
North atlantic convoy
50deg hit amidships
surface runner
Choppy water windspeed ~8 x 1.25 wavemod
huge explosion destroys all the deck
visual contact lost
sinking sounds after 15mins

(all ships in late '44)

[Soviet_Warlord]

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/6822/example22vy.jpg

After striking the centre of this Destroyer (I think it was a Type C) with a torpedo about 2-3 metres below the waterline, the ship kept on steaming for another 10 minutes before slowly sinking. There was no sign of flooding for the first number of minutes.

Personally I think that Destroyers should sink fast if they are topedoed, since they are relatively small and sacrifice armour for agility. I think that most torpedo hits on destroyers ought to be critical.

Thats my only gripe so far, ships are really sinking much more realistically now :up:

[Letum]

After striking the centre of this Destroyer (I think it was a Type C) with a torpedo about 2-3 metres below the waterline, the ship kept on steaming for another 10 minutes before slowly sinking. There was no sign of flooding for the first number of minutes.

Personally I think that Destroyers should sink fast if they are topedoed, since they are relatively small and sacrifice armour for agility. I think that most torpedo hits on destroyers ought to be critical.

Thats my only gripe so far, ships are really sinking much more realistically now :up:

Ive seen a pic od a destroyer that had its entire bow blown off in the med and still managed to make it home because most bulkheads in most destroyers extend up to the main deck. So occasionaly it may take more than one torp to sink a destroyer(cant remember if it was from a torp of a mine) Anyhow, 10 mins is still a very quick sinking!

The most torps I heard used on a ship IRL was 7! The ship was over 10,000 and full of empty barrles! On the 7th torpedo its back broke and the ship was abandoned and sank sevral days later.

[Sailor Steve]

A critical hit, i.e. BOOM can only occur through an impact torpedo.

The under keel explosion may cause more damage than a impact torpedo, but it cannot break the back of a ship.

This is a SHIII design feature. The only way a ships back will break is by the critical chance, i.e. a BOOM i.e. impact torpedo.

So as a under keel torpedo can cause more flooding I would suggest using 1 under keel and one impact torpedo.


I know im not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but, shouldnt this work the other way around?

http://www.ssbn622.homestead.com/sinkex.html

I agree, how can an impact hit the keel and split the ship better than a magnetic?
You're both absolutely right; most keel-breaking reports come from magnetic detonations. However, note that he said "This is an SHIII design feature". It's a problem with the game, not Teddy Bar's concepts of what should happen.

Ive seen a pic od a destroyer that had its entire bow blown off in the med and still managed to make it home...
I have an article about a British destroyer that had both bow and stern blown off by mines, and was towed home still afloat. It did happen, but what a frustration for the player it happens to! :rotfl:

[Soviet_Warlord]

Here is another one:

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1321/example32nu.jpg

Is it normal for relatively small ships, split in two, to take that long to sink? Or is that about right?

By the way, Malta is an excellent mission to test out this awesome mod.

[CCIP]

Well, they don't have special drains to make them go down immideately. :hmm:

Sounds about right to me. 5-7 minutes is not a long time to sink at all, no matter what default SHIII says.

[Soviet_Warlord]

Well, they don't have special drains to make them go down immideately. :hmm:.

lol I guess so

no matter what default SHIII says.

lol I'm too used to default SHIII :oops:

[Clyde00]

Small merchant at 7-8 knots. Seas 10 meters. Launched two electrics in salvo with 2 degree seperation, magnetic heads, depth of 2.1, directly at the bridge. Range was about 1100. Torpedo one hits about 5 feet aft of the bridge deck, torpedo two hits about 8 feet before the bridge deck. Target aob at impact was about 88 degrees. Target immediately was identified as sunk. Ship listed very badly and explosions all throughout the bow and stern. Took about 12 minutes to sink.

Small merchant at 5 knots. Seas 5 meters. Launched T1 with impact head, depth 3, a little ahead of the bridge. Range was about 810. Torpedo hits aft of the bridge almost to the aft mast. Ship list very slowly, and slows down to about 3 knots. Fired about 22 deck gun rounds with only 14 of them hitting below the water line. 8 towards the bow, 6 directly in the stern. Ship list to where the bridge is touching the water but no more. Target is dead in the water. Changed sides to where the hull was showing more and put 3 good shots with the 105mm deck gun, HE shells, in the hull. 4 shots with AP shells below the water line forward of the bridge. Ship started sinking slowly and listed very bad with part of the bridge in the water. Destroyer showed up so put one impact, slow speed, depth 2 meters, directly into the hull up side. Total time from first impact to last visual sighting with the ship burning (night time) was 1 hour and 18 minutes. Received a ship sunk message about 7 minutes later after visual was lost.

10- 8-1939 Typed IX. Manual TDC. Using Sh3 commanders seasonal waves and Hollywoods realistic crew.

Seems realistic enough as to what I have read and seen in old films taken from the deck of Uboats. I remember in one film, the crew torpedoed what looked like a coastal vessel. It looked like it was in the early afternoon when this happened. The lifeboat was beside the boat for awhile then sent away. When the ships hull was under and only the mast was visible, it was nightime and clouds had started to form.

[Der Teddy Bar]

After striking the centre of this Destroyer (I think it was a Type C) with a torpedo about 2-3 metres below the waterline, the ship kept on steaming for another 10 minutes before slowly sinking. There was no sign of flooding for the first number of minutes.

Personally I think that Destroyers should sink fast if they are topedoed, since they are relatively small and sacrifice armour for agility. I think that most torpedo hits on destroyers ought to be critical.

Thats my only gripe so far, ships are really sinking much more realistically now :up:
My reading tends to indicate that escorts could and often did survive a single torpedo hit. Yes there were a lot that did not, and this is the balance that we need to attain.

I will need to look at say 50+ escort attacks with detailed location hits for a accurate picture of how escorts as a whole are doing. Of course each ship is unique and we will then need to see how each class of ship is doing.

The type of ship is also very important as there are actually 2 escort sets, each with its own settings.

I feel that 10 minutes is quit quick for a ‘sinking via flooding’ and there will be a lot of instant sinking i.e. BOOM as all areas of the escorts have a reasonably high Critical Chance.

This is not to say that I do not have it wrong, it is only to clarify what is and is not and why and what I need to make this Mod into an official release.

So please keep the data coming in. What I need to know is the precise location of the hit so that I can ascertain what compartments are affected and thus tune the Mod.

Here are some examples of destroyers hit by torpedos.

Damaged? Mistakenly sunk by own side
At 02.50 hours, the HMS Grafton (H 89) was hit by one torpedo from U-62 and caught fire. The Commander and many men on deck, just escaped from Dunkirk, were killed by the explosion.The vessels closest to the torpedoed destroyer opened fire on a darkened ship that they believed to have been the attacker - sinking the HMS Comfort within minutes by concerted machine gun and cannon fire.At dawn, the burning HMS Grafton (H 89) was scuttled by three shells from the HMS Ivanhoe (D 16).

Damaged, sailed under own power
The USS Kearny (DD 432) (Cmdr A.L. Danis) was part of the Escort Group 4.1.4 (detached from convoy ON-24) and escorted SC-48 southwest of Iceland. At 04.15 hours on 17 Oct, 1941, the destroyer was hit by one of four torpedoes fired by U-568. The torpedo struck on starboard side, killing eleven men and wounded 22 others. The vessel steamed at 10 knots under escort by the American destroyer USS Greer (DD 145) to Hvalfjordur, Iceland, arriving on 19 October. After temporary repairs alongside the American repair ship USS Vulcan (AR 5) she left Iceland on 24 December for Boston for permanent repairs, which were completed until March 1942.

Sunk - Magazine explosion
At 22.21 hours on 17 Jan, 1942, the HMS Matabele (G 26), escorting convoy PQ-8, was hit by one torpedo from U-454 in the stern, which caused her magazines to blow up and the ship sank within two minutes off Kola Inlet. Her depth charges detonated and killed many survivors in the water, while others were frozen to death by the icy waters. The U-boat reported an earlier hit on a destroyer at 18.54 hours and a previous shot that missed. All attacks were probably against the same destroyer. At 03.54 hours on 18 Feb, 1940, HMS Daring (H 16) (Cmdr S.A. Cooper, lost) was hit by two torpedoes from U-23 off Pentland Firth, while escorting the convoy HN-12 and sank immediately.

Sunk – 2 torpedos
The HNoMS Bath (I 17) (LtCdr Frederick Melsom) was escorting the convoy OG-71 as part of the 5th Escort Group about 400 miles southwest of Ireland. During the combat, the destroyer fell behind the convoy and was sunk by two torpedoes from U-204 at 02.05 hours on 19 Aug, 1941. The commander and 88 crew members were lost.

Damaged – Sunk under tow due to weather
At 00.30 hours on 24 Oct, 1941, U-563 fired one torpedo at a steamer in convoy HG-75 which seemed to hit after a running time of 4 minutes 44 seconds. Eight minutes later, a spread of two torpedoes was fired against a turning destroyer which missed, but detonations were heard behind. In fact, the HMS Cossack (G 03) (Capt Berthon, lost) was struck by one torpedo forward of the bridge, when she was at the rear of the convoy. The explosion blew off the bow section and destroyed most of the forward section. The survivors (29 of them wounded) on Carley floats were picked up by the HMS Legion (F 74) and the HMS Carnation (K 00). The next morning, some volunteers reboarded the wrecked ship and got the engines running. A tug from Gibraltar took the destroyer in tow, but bad weather prevented further salvage operations and the HMS Cossack (G 03) sank soon after the tow was slipped

Sunk - 2 torpedos
At 04.15 hours on 19 Dec, 1941, the HMS Stanley (I 73) (LtCdr D.B. Shaw, RN, OBE) was hit by two of three torpedoes from U-574, while on station astern of the convoy HG-76 and immediately sank about 330 miles west of Cape Sines, Portugal. The U-boat was sunk 12 minutes after the attack by HMS Stork (L 81).

Damaged – towed and repaired
At 01.57 hours on 12 Jan, 1942, U-77 sighted two destroyers off Tobruk and fired at 02.38 hours a spread of four torpedoes of which one hit the stern of HMS Kimberley (F 50). The explosion blew her stern off and immediately stopped the vessel, which was missed by a coup de grâce at 02.45 hours. The destroyer was towed to Alexandria by the HMS Heythrop (L 85) and after temporary repairs towed in February 1942 to Bombay, where she was repaired and returned to service in January 1944.

Damaged & then scuttled
At 07.35 hours on 17 Jan, 1942, the HMS Gurkha (F 63) was hit by one torpedo from U-133 and caught fire from bow to stern. The HNMS Isaac Sweers (G 83) towed the destroyer clear of the burning oil on the surface. The most crew members were then transferred to the Dutch destroyer by boats and were landed at Tobruk in the evening. The burning destroyer had to be scuttled north of Sidi Barrani.

[Der Teddy Bar]

When a ship breaks in 1/2 there is actually specific settings for these to sink and the 'whole ship' settings no longer used.

It is a shame that they do not use the whole ship settings as it would have been nice to see the occassional 1/2 stay afloat.

Recaping, though I did lengthen the time for the seperate halves to sink from about 60 seconds to generally less than 5 minutes (with stern sinking faster than the bow) this sinking as this is no longer the 'whole ship' sinking configuration.

[booger2005]

Serg's Large Cargo seem to have been brocken by this mod. It's now a ghost ship. It can't move, and torpedoes pass right through it, and it it is not spotted or recognized by the crew. Is this just me?

Does the internal cargo matter anymore? I built a test mission for this mod (very calm weather). I have a C2 loaded with internal freight, a C3 loaded with internal ammunition, and a T3 loaded with fuel. 3 times in a row When I hit the C2 loaded with freight in the first or second bow cargo compartment, 4m, 90 degrees, it hit the critical chance and blew in half. Meanwhile, the ammo laden C3 was hit with one torpedo, 5m, 80 degrees, under the bridge and showed no signs of damage for 10 minutes. I then racked it with about 40 HE 88 rounds, mostly near or near the waterline. It settled evenly. and sank in about 30 minutes. In the default 1.4, an internal cargo of ammo caused very high probablility of critical chance with either torpedoes or shells. Can you bring this back?

[Marhkimov]

In case anyone has not already done so.......

PLEASE READ THE README THAT COMES WITH NYGM!


I really can't stress this enough. The readme is a great resourse to help you better understand how SH3 damage modelling works, and to understand what NYGM did to improve on that.

It helped answer so many of my questions.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Serg's Large Cargo seem to have been brocken by this mod. It's now a ghost ship. It can't move, and torpedoes pass right through it, and it it is not spotted or recognized by the crew. Is this just me?
I would be doubful that this could have anything to do with this mod as all I have done is to alter a variable file i.e. the Zones.cfg and the Hit points i.e. the ShipName.zon and for some the Garvity Centre i.e. ShipName.sim.


Does the internal cargo matter anymore?
Yes it does.

I built a test mission for this mod (very calm weather). I have a C2 loaded with internal freight, a C3 loaded with internal ammunition, and a T3 loaded with fuel. 3 times in a row When I hit the C2 loaded with freight in the first or second bow cargo compartment, 4m, 90 degrees, it hit the critical chance and blew in half. Meanwhile, the ammo laden C3 was hit with one torpedo, 5m, 80 degrees, under the bridge and showed no signs of damage for 10 minutes. I then racked it with about 40 HE 88 rounds, mostly near or near the waterline. It settled evenly. and sank in about 30 minutes. In the default 1.4, an internal cargo of ammo caused very high probablility of critical chance with either torpedoes or shells. Can you bring this back?
You cannot have this Mod if you want the unrealistic BOOM all of the time :up:

When a ship runs out of HP’s it destructs with an almighty BOOM!

SHIII 1.4b ~ a C2 used to equal 400 HP's. A torpedo = 120 to 180 HP's, 3 x 180 = 540, 540 into 400 = BOOM :damn:

OK now lets factor in the ammunition factor of AmmoForceMultiplyer=4.0. That is the explosion of location filled with this cargo type is multiplied by this factor.

a C2 used to equal 400 HP's. A torpedo = 120 to 180 HP's, 1 x 180 * 4 = 720, 720 into 400 = BOOM :damn:

While ammo laden ships were susceptible to blowing up into a million pieces these were the extreme cases and not the norm.

SHIII 1.4b & NYGM ~ The ships in NYGM Ship Damage Mod now have 2160 HP's.

A NYGM C2 has 2160 HP's. A torpedo = 120 to 180 HP's, 1 x 180 * 4 = 720, 720 x3 = 2160 = BOOM? :lost:

So as you see the ammo does have a positve effect in the NYGM Ship Damage Mod. Certain compartments on a ship may or may not flood from a torpedo hit, this is determined by the random value of the Torpedo HP's. However, if a ammo laden compartment is it this compartment will always be 100% destroyed and flood at maximum rate.

So it is a choice of the NYGM Ship Damage Mod and more realistic sinkings or BOOM :rotfl:

[Soviet_Warlord]

Ok, another example, this time a Nelson class battleship.

Gee, Teddy Bar, it seems like these battleships are actually as hard to sink as they were in real life (I think), nice job.

Even after 5 torpedo hits, this ship didn't sink. Unfortunately I was hunted down and killed by destroyers so I was unable to see the end result of my attack. Bear in mind, I was waiting more than 40 minutes (probably about 50) after my first torpedo hit, but I think it is fitting for a monstrous battleship like this.

I love this mod, the immersion in this game just got raised drastically.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5608/example45lq.jpg

[Der Teddy Bar]

Small merchant at 7-8 knots. Seas 10 meters. Launched two electrics in salvo with 2 degree seperation, magnetic heads, depth of 2.1, directly at the bridge. Range was about 1100. Torpedo one hits about 5 feet aft of the bridge deck, torpedo two hits about 8 feet before the bridge deck. Target aob at impact was about 88 degrees. Target immediately was identified as sunk. Ship listed very badly and explosions all throughout the bow and stern. Took about 12 minutes to sink.
Excellent description.

Attack analyses:
The "explosions all throughout the bow and stern" is the none too subtle Critical Chance affects i.e. instant kill.

The two torpedos in this attack would most likely only have damaged the one cargo space. There is however a small chance that the first torpedo may have damaged the engine space depending upon the random range of the torpedo blast.

Attack advice:
I never use the salvo spread as it does not allow predicable hit locations. Something that is very important with this Mod. Remember if a compartment is damaged, if you hit it again, you may or may not get any benefit. The benefit often is not worth the torpedo. Of course, this may not always be the fact as this hit may be required to continue the current sinking by the bow, where in that case hitting the stern may only result in the ship levelling out.

When I use multiple shots on a single ship I use multiple single shots, this allows me to aim the torpedo to hit where I want it to.


Small merchant at 5 knots. Seas 5 meters. Launched T1 with impact head, depth 3, a little ahead of the bridge. Range was about 810. Torpedo hits aft of the bridge almost to the aft mast. Ship list very slowly, and slows down to about 3 knots. Fired about 22 deck gun rounds with only 14 of them hitting below the water line. 8 towards the bow, 6 directly in the stern. Ship list to where the bridge is touching the water but no more. Target is dead in the water. Changed sides to where the hull was showing more and put 3 good shots with the 105mm deck gun, HE shells, in the hull. 4 shots with AP shells below the water line forward of the bridge. Ship started sinking slowly and listed very bad with part of the bridge in the water. Destroyer showed up so put one impact, slow speed, depth 2 meters, directly into the hull up side. Total time from first impact to last visual sighting with the ship burning (night time) was 1 hour and 18 minutes. Received a ship sunk message about 7 minutes later after visual was lost.

Attack analyses:
I am certain that this would have resulted in flooding of the engine room which would eventually have the ship stopping.

The shelling in this instance was partially counter productive. As we hit rearward the shelling should have been aimed at assisting this and I would have aimed at the stern and the engine room.

Excellent captaining at moving around to the other side to target the hull at the water line. This also most likely gained a small additional sinking value for the compartments that were already flooding/ed.

Attack advice:
Due to the way that damage is implemented and allowing for variables concerning shell HP’s & Floatation variables, on an undamaged compartment I would generally use a minimum of 8+ shells, sometimes it may require at least twice as many shells.

Flooding is all determined by variables and each ship of the same type will be different each time. So last time it took 10 shells to get sufficient flooding for a certain compartment, next time it may take 18.

If the compartment is damaged, it may require only a few shells to make the difference and cause the ship to sink.

It is also my observation that the deck gun shells take a lot longer to show effects than that of a torpedo, which is just the way it should be.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Soviet_Warlord,
Excellent description & picture, very informative, great work!

Simulated armour belt in NYGM Ship Damage Mod:
A battleship has a high chance that a torpedo hit will not result in that compartment being damaged. This is to simulate the armour belt.


It is possible to sink a battleship by flooding with just two torpedoes. This of course will be rare as allied battleships had well trained crews and damage control.

Through the Critical Chance it is possible to sink a battleship with 1 torpedo, though it will be very rare. A higher chance exists for the ammo bunkers!

On the assumption of well trained crews and damage control the flooding times for a battleship are on the high side as compared to merchant ships.


Attack analyses:
This is an excellent example of a good distribution for a capital ship. Aside from torpedo 1 & 2 being too close this would have been an excellent attack if it was done in one salvo.

Would it have sunk? Even I cannot tell you if this would have resulted in the battleship sinking. There are a lot of variables at play. I can say I have sunk this very battle ships with a lot less :D

Attack advice:
When attacking battleships, aircraft carriers, cruisers etc, make sure of it as you may not get another chance.

[CCIP]

Talk about luck. :o

I finally got back to playing with this (along with Observer's betas), and I spent a month and a half out in the Atlantic without a single contact, until I finally ran across a homebound convoy in the west of AL.

And what do I see but one of these guys in it...

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/6111/sh3img2112006216119237oz.jpg

What I found odd is that the ship was on fire (not too badly) aft when I first saw it. I wonder if something happened with the convoy, perhaps some sort of spawning glitch :hmm:

A two-torpedo spread resulted in a critical hit, as you can see, and the ship was down within 3 minutes of the hit. A Liberty sailing next to it suffered the same fate from just one hit to the fore of the ship, though the fireworks make me suspect it carried ammunition.

[CCIP]

Current convoy attack report in brief

Passenger Liner (13000t) - 2 simultaneous torpedo hits aft (Impact, 4m), critical hit, sunk within 3 minutes

Liberty (7000t) - 1 hit bow (Impact, 4m), critical hit, massive explosions, sunk within 3 minutes

C2 - 1 hit aft (Magnetic, 8.8m), screw destroyed, ship stalled. 2 hours later, returned to ship's position and finished him off with one torpedo (Impact, 4m) - ship blew up and broke in half, sunk within 3 minutes.

[booger2005]

You cannot have this Mod if you want the unrealistic BOOM all of the time :up:

When a ship runs out of HP’s it destructs with an almighty BOOM!

OK now lets factor in the ammunition factor of AmmoForceMultiplyer=4.0. That is the explosion of location filled with this cargo type is multiplied by this factor.

a C2 used to equal 400 HP's. A torpedo = 120 to 180 HP's, 1 x 180 * 4 = 720, 720 into 400 = BOOM :damn:

While ammo laden ships were susceptible to blowing up into a million pieces these were the extreme cases and not the norm.

SHIII 1.4b & NYGM ~ The ships in NYGM Ship Damage Mod now have 2160 HP's.

A NYGM C2 has 2160 HP's. A torpedo = 120 to 180 HP's, 1 x 180 * 4 = 720, 720 x3 = 2160 = BOOM? :lost:

So as you see the ammo does have a positve effect in the NYGM Ship Damage Mod. Certain compartments on a ship may or may not flood from a torpedo hit, this is determined by the random value of the Torpedo HP's. However, if a ammo laden compartment is it this compartment will always be 100% destroyed and flood at maximum rate.

So it is a choice of the NYGM Ship Damage Mod and more realistic sinkings or BOOM :rotfl:

First of all, this is a great, great mod, don't get me wrong. Brings all new life an realism into the game. I was delighted to once see a ship get hit, come to dead stop, and sit for 6 hours and then just unexpectedly roll over and go under. Imagine, floundering in SHIII :up:

You have misunderstood me. I don't want unrealistic boom all of the time, I thought that was as hoakie as anyone else did. All I want is when I hit a ship laden with ammo or a tanker laden with fuel, for it to go BOOM about 80% of the time, and to have a decent chance of going BOOM when hit with a couple of shells. I fully understand that this was a somewhat rare occurance, but in my mind this is an issue for the random layer in reducing the number of ammo carriers. I don't expect everyone to agree, but could you please tell me where the AmmoForceMultiplyer variable is? If I take that to about 16 on my own, I think I'll get the effect I want.

Again, great mod. :D Thank you sooo much for your hard work and dedication. You rock :rock:

[Marhkimov]

You can edit the cargo/ammo/fuel loadouts within the Campaign_RND file. Search through the numbers; it's not hard to find.

Just make sure you make backups before attempting anything.

[Der Teddy Bar]

First of all, this is a great, great mod, don't get me wrong. Brings all new life an realism into the game. I was delighted to once see a ship get hit, come to dead stop, and sit for 6 hours and then just unexpectedly roll over and go under. Imagine, floundering in SHIII :up:

You have misunderstood me. I don't want unrealistic boom all of the time, I thought that was as hoakie as anyone else did. All I want is when I hit a ship laden with ammo or a tanker laden with fuel, for it to go BOOM about 80% of the time, and to have a decent chance of going BOOM when hit with a couple of shells. I fully understand that this was a somewhat rare occurance, but in my mind this is an issue for the random layer in reducing the number of ammo carriers. I don't expect everyone to agree, but could you please tell me where the AmmoForceMultiplyer variable is? If I take that to about 16 on my own, I think I'll get the effect I want.

Again, great mod. :D Thank you sooo much for your hard work and dedication. You rock :rock:
No problems :up:

OK, the shells never caused the ships to go BOOM. What made the ship go BOOM was it running out of HP's while you were shelling it. With NYGM SD Mod that for the most part will never happen because it can really only be one way or the other.

Just to clarify this some more, the added explosive bonus from having ammo and fuel cargo do NOT apply to the deck gun. Never has. The added explosive bonus from having ammo and fuel cargo only work with the torpedo.


Now as far as ships going BOOM, it does happen a lot in the NYGM SD MOd. Sadly SHIII is not subtle when it comes to acheiving a Critical Hit from a single torpedo.

A ship going BOOM will actually occur in more circumstances than in the past, regardless of the cargo. This is because the NYGM SD Mod has added the Critical Chance to areas that it previously was not 'enabled', such as the merchant ship's cargo compartment and bow/stern compartments as well as the escort machinery compartments. All of these areas previously were devoid of a Critical Hit.

So maybe the way to look at this is that with the NYGM when you actually aiming so as to sink the ship, there is now a chance of a Critical Hit i.e. BOOM. Something that previously was not there.

[Der Teddy Bar]

BTW, the tanker does have a very high BOOM chance, but remember, even if the BOOM chance is say 50%, that does not equat to every 2nd time the ship must go BOOM.

So if we were to use the heads V's tails, such as in the Aussie gambling game Two Up, where 3 coins are used and you bet if there will be at least 2 heads or 2 tails, just because there is a 50/50 chance of something happening does not mean that it will average out as such. It is possible that for 20 shots you do not the roll of the dice.

I am open to increasing the BOOM factor should I be convinced that it is required to achieve a historical balance. If I feel that the historically the BOOM factor is too great, I will cut it back.

[LukeFF]

Serg's Large Cargo seem to have been brocken by this mod. It's now a ghost ship. It can't move, and torpedoes pass right through it, and it it is not spotted or recognized by the crew. Is this just me?

Teddy, I'm having this problem, too. Both the large cargo ship and hospital ship just sit dead in the water (in the Museum), but one can hear the propelllor blades turning.

???

[booger2005]

Yes, and I've tested it out on a file by file basis. The NYGM zon file for NKGN makes the ship ghostly. Shells, torps, ships, etc pass through without effect. The sim file creates a variety of problems also. Primarily, it makes it so that it is physically there but ignored in the game. Your lookout don't ever see it, it doesn't cause your noise meter to go go red, it doesn't appear on the map, etc. I forget now which file made it immoble, but I'm guessing that its the sim file.

[booger2005]

Ok, I found the AmmoForceMultiplyer in Zones.cfg. I think I'm going to ramp it up a bit, and to compensate for too many explosions I'm considering reducing the Critical Chance on all the cargo holds. BTW, the FuelForceMultiplier is only 0.5. Does that mean that torpedoes that strike a ship with fuel have 1/2 the effect (i.e. Ruduces the chance of flooding)? :hmm:

[Der Teddy Bar]

OK, my screw up.

Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Beta 0.1.36-1 (http://rapidshare.de/files/11550592/SHIII_Not_Your_Grand_Mothers_Ship_Damage_Mod_Beta_ 1_0.1.36-1.zip.html)

This fixes an issue with the Hospital and Large Cargo ships[/url]

[booger2005]

:up: Thats why its a beta ;) Thank You for the fix.

[Gizzmoe]

Mirror

Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Beta 0.1.36-1 (http://home.arcor.de/gizzmoe/files/SHIII_Not_Your_Grand_Mothers_Ship_Damage_Mod_Beta_ 1_0.1.36-1.zip)

[Der Teddy Bar]

So annoyed with myself, a very silly error, stupid boy :damn: stupid :rotfl:

Thanks for the heads up!

[Marhkimov]

Could you tell us what the mistake was?

It might help to save me some modding trouble in the future... Thanks.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Could you tell us what the mistake was?

It might help to save me some modding trouble in the future... Thanks.
It was because I had cheated :oops:

I had added the RUB ships at the last moment and cheated by getting the equivelent ships ZON & SIM file and renaming them. PPL for the NHOS & the NAMC for the NKGM. Obviously when the ships are cloned that cloning also occurs for the ZON & SIM files.

As RUB has so many crash bugs I don't use it as I need and want a stable platform so as to be sure that my Mods do not cause crashes.

[Gizzmoe]

As RUB has so many crash bugs I don't use it as I need and want a stable platform so as to be sure that my Mods do not cause crashes.

I never had a single crash with RUb!?!? Maybe there was one or two crashes that I don´t recall, but it certainly hasn´t "many crash bugs".

[Der Teddy Bar]

As RUB has so many crash bugs I don't use it as I need and want a stable platform so as to be sure that my Mods do not cause crashes.

I never had a single crash with RUb!?!? Maybe there was one or two crashes that I don´t recall, but it certainly hasn´t "many crash bugs".
Actually I have a very strange theory on this that I need to test with Observer. More will follow when I can confirm my theory.

[Marhkimov]

I had added the RUB ships at the last moment and cheated by getting the equivelent ships ZON & SIM file and renaming them. PPL for the NHOS & the NAMC for the NKGM.
Oh no. :oops:

[The Avon Lady]

As RUB has so many crash bugs I don't use it as I need and want a stable platform so as to be sure that my Mods do not cause crashes.

I never had a single crash with RUb!?!? Maybe there was one or two crashes that I don´t recall, but it certainly hasn´t "many crash bugs".
Not a single crash with RUb here. :nope:

If I ever did have one, it was ages ago with a much earlier RUb version.

[malcymalc]

Hi Teddy,
I have had no crashes at all with RuB - it seems very stable to me.

Stupid question - to add this Mod do I simply oen it in my Mod folder and then transfer it with JSGME? Your ReadMe gives the rationale but not the "how to" - sorry for dumb question from the IT challenged.

By the way Avon Lady - I emailed WaW to enlist a week ago and received no reply - is this normal?

Regards
Malcolm

[Letum]

so far Ive got around 60% 'BOOM' hits
Im not sure what is realistic, but IMHO I would like around 20% prahaps 35% on explosive ships or compartments.
just IMHO

[Stiebler]

It's certainly gratifying to hear from so many users that RUb has not caused them crashes.

I've completed five full campaigns now (1939-1945), of which three were in the original SH3 and two with RUb. There were precisely two CTDs from all three standard SH3 runs. I lost count of the number of crashes with RUb, and that was *before* I started changing things around in the campaign files :D .

From various personal observations, I think that there are a number of causes:
1. The scripted Norwegian campaign (1940) seems to cause various problems in mid 1940.
2. The NDD_C&D destroyer changes are (perhaps) responsible for CTDs when the destroyer is viewed.
3. RUb (according to what I've read elsewhere) contains some high-res graphics that cause trouble for those with older graphics cards (yet still good enough for the original SH3).

Doubtless there may be other causes. I'm a great fan of RUb, nevertheless, because it does contain the most realistic U-boat simulation, and the best current mods. And the occasional crash does not detract from the total experience.

I am very unenthusiastic about all these new ship skins, and indeed new ships generally. Pure eye-candy, probably not tested according to proper standards, and far too much risk for too little return.

"You can always tell the amateurs. They always think that everyone else owns exactly the same computer equipment" - Stiebler.

[CCIP]

I'm yet to have any crashes related to any of the above mods, myself - though I agree that great care needs to be taken with the new ships.

I've actually had a few crashes recently, and I've managed to track them down to exact changes in little files like en_menu.txt (which wasn't from RUb, anyway). Others are often related to sound; I'm yet to have any issue relating to add-on graphics files. And the save-game system; but we all know about that. It's usually possible to track down crashes to exact sources in the data, from my experience, since the game code is very stable by itself.

Anyway, I think we need a survey on critical hits. I know for a fact that there were almost none of them in an earlier (closed) beta of this; so once we have a more-or-less objective cross-section of the sinkings, this could be easily tweaked :)

[Der Teddy Bar]

OK, we need to make sure that any user contributing feedback is NOT using Auto TDC .

Not to offend, but the Auto TDC has a gamey feauture to ensure that ships go BOOM regardless of what the Zones.cfg settings say.


Manual TDC example of how the Critical Chance works:
If the Zones.cfg say that a ship should have a 10% to go BOOM, then when a player using the manual TDC hits one of the original Critical Zones then the dice rolls and there is a 10% chance that the ship may go BOOM.


Auto TDC example of how the Critical Chance works:
If the Zones.cfg say that a ship should have a 10% to go BOOM, then when a player using the Auto TDC hits one of the original Critical Zones then there is NO dice rolls, the 10% chance is ignored, the ship WILL go BOOM.


Critical Chance: A Critical Chance is a setting in the zones.cfg that works like this. If the compartment has a Critical Chance associated with it, when a torpedo successfully damages that compartment, then there is a chance, as specified by the Critical Chance, that the torpedo will, without exceeding the ships HP’s, cause the ship to destruct with an almighty BOOM.

In the standard game only the fuel bunker, engine space, keel and ammo space all had a critical hit chance associated with them. The merchant ships ‘cargo’ and the warships ‘cargo’ spaces do not have a Critical Chance.


The Auto TDC’s ‘Silver Bullet’: The Auto TDC has a ‘Silver Bullet’ attribute. Essentially, the Auto TDC ignores the Critical Chance= specified for a player not using the Auto TDC, If your torpedo hits the location it will always result in a critical hit. This has been confirmed by the Dev Team, I quote “This was the original design, that when using the Auto TDC and the recognition manual for "designated critical shots", you ALWAYS get the critical effect (amplified torpedo damage).”

If anyone has been using using Auto TDC can you edit your post to indicate this.

I appreciate the feedback :up:

[Letum]

my 60% BOOM was NOT with auto TDC or WO help

[booger2005]

BTW, the FuelForceMultiplier is only 0.5. Does that mean that torpedoes that strike a ship with fuel have 1/2 the effect (i.e. Ruduces the chance of flooding)? :hmm:

Anyone?

[CCIP]

The WO targeting should not result in 100% boom, because the WO only calculates an accurate solution for the moment you request the target data, and does not track changes in the target bearing, delays in torpedo ejection, or changes in the boat's position. He is quite accurate, though, but he doesn't track the target for you, only gets the exact target data for that one moment.

[Der Teddy Bar]

[quote=booger2005] BTW, the FuelForceMultiplier is only 0.5. Does that mean that torpedoes that strike a ship with fuel have 1/2 the effect (i.e. Ruduces the chance of flooding)? :hmm:
I checked SHIII 1.0 & 1.4b and the 0.5 is the original value, something that I never paid attention too.

And I would have to agree that this probably should be 1.5 and not 0.5.

[Marhkimov]

Teddy Bar,


I just tested in the museum, and the Liberty Cargo is broke too. It's not moving.

[Panama Red]

First use of your mod:
Using WO and impact torperdoes, I put a fish into a Large Cargo (starboard midship) and it only slowed it down from 7 knots to 5 knots and a slight list.

After 5 minutes, I circled to the port side and put another fish into her (port side midship) and after another 20 minutes she finally went under stern first.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Teddy Bar,


I just tested in the museum, and the Liberty Cargo is broke too. It's not moving.
Did you wait for a little bit? Initially it looks as if it is not moving (see first image), as some others do and then after a short period it will 'move' (see second image). Just to let you know, I admit I screwed up by cheating on the late inclusions NHOS & NKGM but... all the original SHIII vessels have been distributed among the external beta testers as is for the last 3 months. It is only the Zones.cfg file that has been reworked since last year.

Note in the fist image the angle of the smoke & now wake, 2nd image has wake, 3rd image is ship accpeting my torpedo :up:
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/7407/libertymovingnygmsdmod10tr.th.jpg (http://img398.imageshack.us/my.php?image=libertymovingnygmsdmod10tr.jpg) http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2935/libertymovingnygmsdmod27fw.th.jpg (http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=libertymovingnygmsdmod27fw.jpg) http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/3080/libertytorpedohitnygmsdmo0zh.th.jpg (http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=libertytorpedohitnygmsdmo0zh.jpg)


Thanks for keeping a look out for irregularities and more importantly reporting them. Thankfully in this one all is OK.

BTW, I am using SHIII 1.4b, NYGM Ship Damage Mod, NYGM Crew Management Mod & Bordinstrumente by Oak_Groove

[Marhkimov]

Ok, I'll give it another whirl.

[bill clarke]

Hi Teddy, looks like you did a bang up job, one of the things about the stock game that i am frustrated with is the way that fires on board dont seem to get any bigger, no consume various parts of the ship, I would expect that a hit on a loaded tanker would result in a very large fire that would burn for hours if the ship did not sink at once, however in the stock game the tankers blow up and sink without much fire, and the stock flames could also use some improvements.

Is fixing this within your capabilities ?

[The Avon Lady]

There are several threads on the SH3 general forum that discuss why historically, tankers would most often not easily ignite or blow up to bits.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Hi Teddy, looks like you did a bang up job, one of the things about the stock game that i am frustrated with is the way that fires on board dont seem to get any bigger, no consume various parts of the ship, I would expect that a hit on a loaded tanker would result in a very large fire that would burn for hours if the ship did not sink at once, however in the stock game the tankers blow up and sink without much fire, and the stock flames could also use some improvements.

Is fixing this within your capabilities ?
I have experienced a tanker on fire and the fire trailing behind in the oil for about 75 metres at least. Looked great and had a big smoke cloud to go with it. Doesn't happen that often though.

A 2nd part to make it happen better might already be done with the way the guys were playing with th graphics when TimeTraveller did his graphic tweaking files.

I'll sus it out as a part of the larger Tonnage War Mod.

[Panama Red]

I notice last night (after some other commented on Museum ships) that my Hospital ship and Large Merchant ship did not move in the Museum, but all the other ships moved. :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

[Marhkimov]

Get the fixed files here:

Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Beta 0.1.36-1 (http://rapidshare.de/files/11550592/SHIII_Not_Your_Grand_Mothers_Ship_Damage_Mod_Beta_ 1_0.1.36-1.zip.html)

Mirror: Not Your Grand Mothers Ship Damage Mod Beta 0.1.36-1 (http://home.arcor.de/gizzmoe/files/SHIII_Not_Your_Grand_Mothers_Ship_Damage_Mod_Beta_ 1_0.1.36-1.zip)

[booger2005]

BTW, the tanker does have a very high BOOM chance, but remember, even if the BOOM chance is say 50%, that does not equat to every 2nd time the ship must go BOOM.

Speaking of tankers, how did you accomplish this? Is there a high critical chance associated with tanker holds, or does there some multiplier for fuel cargo thats going up to 2160 hit point? Because I have noticed that fuel does matter; in NYGM fuel makes the tanker go BOOM with about 50% probability compared with the stock game's darn nearn 100%, but in NYGM change the same tanker's cargo to freight and I've not yet it go BOOM...it floods and sinks slowly, nicely.

I have no idea historically how many tankers that were carrying fuel burned/exploded or just sank. The reason I'm being so persistent on this is I'm hopping there is some way I can make fuel carrying tankers go boom with about 80% probability rather than 50ish, for no other reason but to cheat a bit and have at least one ship type I can reliably count on to go up like a Roman candle in the campaign with one torp, so long as it was carrying fuel. :oops: (But thats my limit, I don't want all tankers ie freight carrying ones to explode. Balance between gameplay and realism for me)

[Der Teddy Bar]

Speaking of tankers, how did you accomplish this? Is there a high critical chance associated with tanker holds, or does there some multiplier for fuel cargo thats going up to 2160 hit point?
Did you read the Read Me? I am sure that everything is well explained in there.

Because I have noticed that fuel does matter; in NYGM fuel makes the tanker go BOOM with about 50% probability compared with the stock game's darn nearn 100%, but in NYGM change the same tanker's cargo to freight and I've not yet it go BOOM...it floods and sinks slowly, nicely.
I can also tell you that you are incorrect in your thinking that the cargo influences the BOOM %. All my testing has always been on tankers with 'cargo' and not fuel. Always. I can promise you that a 'cargo' carrying tanker will go BOOM :up:

I can only configure the compartment to have a chance to go BOOM not the cargo.


I have no idea historically how many tankers that were carrying fuel burned/exploded or just sank.
And this is where I loose interest and I say "next please"... The first reason is this a Realism Mod. It is aimed at providing as best as possible, within the contraints impossed upon us, a more real experience. The second reason is, you are asking for something that you have no data to back up your request.

I am realistic in saying we will only get a rough representation of how it was, but it will all things considered, be a good representation.


The reason I'm being so persistent on this is I'm hopping there is some way I can make fuel carrying tankers go boom with about 80% probability rather than 50ish, for no other reason but to cheat a bit and have at least one ship type I can reliably count on to go up like a Roman candle in the campaign with one torp, so long as it was carrying fuel. :oops: (But thats my limit, I don't want all tankers ie freight carrying ones to explode. Balance between gameplay and realism for me)
I appreciate your honesty and can understand your reasons. However it will not happen for the reasons mentioned above.

[Clyde00]

Tramp steamer 6 knots. Seas 7 meters. AOB was 136 deg. Target was about 900 meters away. Fired one T2, magnetic head, just ahead of the bridge. Torpedo hit midway between the bridge and stern. Target was stopped dead in water and sunk within 13 minutes with heavy listing to the port and rear.

Medium cargo 6kts on a zig-zag course. Seas calm. AOB was somewhere in the 70 degree range. Fired 4 T1s spaced out from bow to stern, 2 impacts, 2 magnetic heads. Range was about 500-600 meters. 1st impact bounced off, 2nd mag (depth 5.1) exploded about 20 ft from the stern, 3rd mag (depth 4.6) exploded at the very rear of the stern, 4th went amiss. Target was dead in the water immediately. Fired 31 88mm shells into the forward areas below the waterline(I remembered your replies :P ). Target sunk in 31 minutes.

V&W destroyer. 11kts, AOB was 85deg, range was 2700. Fired two T1s, magnetic heads, depth 1.8. One aimed ahead of the bow about 5 deg, one at the bow. I miscalculated the TDC, but one hit in the stern of the ship causing a very bright explosion and immediate stopping of the vessel. Target was seen to be listing very badly in the stern. Last sighting I had before I had to dive deep (was below the Shetlands with several warships and trawlers, a\c) was the ship half under. Time from impact to last visual was 3 minutes. This is the last image I saw.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/56/image10ch.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Panama Red]

This latest patch fixed the museum non-moving Hospital ship and Large Merchant.

It also takes me two to three fish to sink any ship of any decent size now. In fact, I normally have to put one or two fish into one side and then circle the the other side and put the second or third fish into that side so I get all the "cirtical areas" covered and she goes down.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Clyde00,
Nice report. Wow 2700 metres and at an escort! Did you get credit for it?

I would recommend that if not setting the torpedo deep enough to go under the keel, then only use impact as using the the magnetic means you have a chance of a premature detonation occuring.

[Der Teddy Bar]

This latest patch fixed the museum non-moving Hospital ship and Large Merchant.

It also takes me two to three fish to sink any ship of any decent size now. In fact, I normally have to put one or two fish into one side and then circle the the other side and put the second or third fish into that side so I get all the "cirtical areas" covered and she goes down.
Any chance of sending in some detailed data? It will of course help me but hopefully I may be able to also help you.

[sergbuto]

I am very unenthusiastic about all these new ship skins, and indeed new ships generally. Pure eye-candy, probably not tested according to proper standards, and far too much risk for too little return.

Then why are you making them? :rotfl: Such as milk-cows etc.

[booger2005]

You've misunderstood again, I wasn't asking you to adjust anything, just give me info so I could do it myself, on my install. :-? Which you did, Der Teddy Bar (even if you didn't realize it), thank you. :up:

BTW, could you please tell us which ships use which part of the zones.cfg (New merchant, cargo, etc...)

[Stiebler]

Sergbuto said:
Stiebler wrote:
I am very unenthusiastic about all these new ship skins, and indeed new ships generally. Pure eye-candy, probably not tested according to proper standards, and far too much risk for too little return.
Then why are you making them? ROTFL Such as milk-cows etc.

I am tempted to reply: 'because I'm a professional programmer (25 years/assembler upwards) who *does* know how to test things properly'.

More seriously, though, new ships/skins do present a continuing and mostly *unnecessary* risk of crashes to any user (of any game). So they should only be used when justified. Hence the U-tanker mod in 'Stiebler & Teddy Bear's campaign files' - there was no other option, but I made the minimum possible changes when copying an existing type IXB U-boat. And there is no 'etc.'

You will be glad to hear, though, that I do regard *your* work with sufficient confidence to have included the Hospital ship in the same campaign files. Your help with my U-tanker is also acknowledged with thanks in the tanker's read-me file.

Stiebler.

[Marhkimov]

New ship skins don't cause any problems. That's the most outrageous thing I ever heard. Everyone here makes skins at minimal size (512x512) so that can't possibly be the problem.

And most of the time, people max out their skins to only 3 per ship, so how much trouble can a few skins be???

No trouble at all.



P.S. The Hospital Ship does not belong to Sergbuto. It was created by Iambecomlife.

[Marhkimov]

BTW, could you please tell us which ships use which part of the zones.cfg (New merchant, cargo, etc...)
Read the readme. It's all in there.

[sergbuto]

P.S. The Hospital Ship does not belong to Sergbuto. It was created by Iambecomlife.

Take a look at the Readme file for the hospital ship mod. It says that it is based on my NPTR transport. Iambecomlife cloned it with Pack3D and applied the hospital ship skin made by him.

[Marhkimov]

hehe... I knew that... I was just testing you. ;)

[sergbuto]

Sergbuto said:
Stiebler wrote:
I am very unenthusiastic about all these new ship skins, and indeed new ships generally. Pure eye-candy, probably not tested according to proper standards, and far too much risk for too little return.
Then why are you making them? ROTFL Such as milk-cows etc.

I am tempted to reply: 'because I'm a professional programmer (25 years/assembler upwards) who *does* know how to test things properly'..
More seriously, though, new ships/skins do present a continuing and mostly *unnecessary* risk of crashes to any user (of any game). So they should only be used when justified. Hence the U-tanker mod in 'Stiebler & Teddy Bear's campaign files' - there was no other option, but I made the minimum possible changes when copying an existing type IXB U-boat. And there is no 'etc.'


Having done the programmer's job as well, I can say that testing some code and testing some add-ons for already made and final product which comes as "a black box" are different things. Programmer experience has little to add to it. One needs to know how the game is designed to work and that is achivable only through modding it. Having modded and tweaked SH3 in different areas and different type of files from the very begining, I can say that new ship and skins represent the smallest danger as a reason for a crash because there are relatively easy but extremely efficient ways to test those which SH3 offers beforehand. To my experience most danger for potential underlying crash lies in modding of so-called text files in SH3. Because in most cases the game loads and plays fine and it is not easy to track down the reason for the crash in this case due to multiple interconnections.

[Salvadoreno]

so whats the deal with this mod? How far along is it comming and how many more beta tests are needed?? I cannot WAIT for this mod.

[Der Teddy Bar]

so whats the deal with this mod? How far along is it comming and how many more beta tests are needed?? I cannot WAIT for this mod.
The Mod has been in My Beta for 4+ months, limited Beta for 3+ months, closed Beta for 1.5 months and Public Beta for a week or so.

While I have revisioned this mod as a beta, it is a very advanced beta. But realistically it still needs work.

Download link is in the first post, mirror link is on page 3 or something.

[bill clarke]

Der teddy Bar, I have downloaded the file on the first page and have a couple of questions.

1. Do I just copy the relevant files in to my SHIII directory to install ?

2. Is this mod for dummies like me that let the computer do the math for an attack ?

Thanks mate.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Der teddy Bar, I have downloaded the file on the first page and have a couple of questions.

1. Do I just copy the relevant files in to my SHIII directory to install ?

2. Is this mod for dummies like me that let the computer do the math for an attack ?

Thanks mate.
Yes to Q1
Yes to Q2 if your are refering to the WO. Kinda if using the Auto TDC as the BOOM rate will be higher but if no BOOM then all the features of this mod, ie ships sinking by flooding are as per those using manual TDC.

[bill clarke]

Thanks, as there has been considerable discussion about ships sinking from torpedoes I thought I'd post this link on the loss of the IJN Shokaku, it's quite an interesting read and may be of assistance to you modders in future.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/shoksink.htm

Hope you all enjoy the read.

[Letum]

Latest sinkings with 0.1.36 in format:
Weather
Ship type
Torpedo hit data
Reports

Hits are divided in to:
FarBow -- Bow -- BowAmidships -- Amidships -- AftAmidships -- Aft -- FarAft

(al in 1940)

Clam
Costal
Aft Underkeel
BOOM
+10m decks awash
+15m sank evenly

Very Choppy
Costal
Midships 5m
Small explosion
Fire
+20m list
+22m Engines stopped
+1h no change
+2h no change
+2 1/2 h no change, contact lost

Calm
C2
hit not visualy observed (5m)
+20 no change, contact lost

Calm
C3
1x FarBow (6m)
1x BowAmidships (6m)
+2m 1x Amidships
BOOM on 3rd torp
+4m Sank evenly

Calm
C2
3 1/2 hours of shelling with 10.5
+3.5h aft decks awash, engines stopped
+3.75 no change
+4 no change
+4.35 sank by aft with a torpedo at 3m Amidships

Calm
Large merchant
BowAmidships 6m
+3m list
+6m sank by bow

Storm
C2
1x Bow (6m) 1x BowAmidships (6m)
+2 visual lost
didn't sink

Storm
Small cargo
Possible hit or premature detonation at 6.5m
Visual lost
Didnt sink

[Sailor Steve]

I loaded this mod before I started my latest career, and the results so far have been mixed-and properly so.

I've been lucky and had no duds. The first ship I torpedoed was a coastal merchant, about 2000 tons. He sank 19 minutes after being hit by a single torpedo. That's great; all previous sinkings under the old system went down almost immediately.

Number two was a medium-sized cargo ship, what the stock game calls "C3 Cargo". I put two topedoes into it, and the second was wasted as the ship blew up before it got there.

Number three was a small merchant. It took one torpedo and stopped dead in the water. I waited around for almost an hour, then surfaced and opened up with the 8.8cm deck gun. 68 rounds later (69 fired, but the first one missed) the crew stopped firing, with the ship on fire from stem to stern. I waited around some more, and 21 minutes later the target finally sank. I got the red "ship sunk" icon on the map, but no "Target Sank" (actually RUB's "She's Going Down!") notification.

Seems to be working quite well so far. :up:

[ref]

I ...then surfaced and opened up with the 8.8cm deck gun. 68 rounds later (69 fired, but the first one missed) the crew stopped firing...

Probably it sunks from overweight. :rotfl: :rotfl:

I do know that the deck gun is overpowered in sh3, but a small
vessel with a torpedo in it's guts and 68 rounds of explosive shells seems a bit to much.

[Der Teddy Bar]

I ...then surfaced and opened up with the 8.8cm deck gun. 68 rounds later (69 fired, but the first one missed) the crew stopped firing...

Probably it sunks from overweight. :rotfl: :rotfl:

I do know that the deck gun is overpowered in sh3, but a small
vessel with a torpedo in it's guts and 68 rounds of explosive shells seems a bit to much.
Elmbank a Motor merchant of 5.156 tons. Constructed in 1925.

This ship took 12 hours to sink and required 2 torpedoes and 100+ rounds of 88mm from two of the best, Otto Kretschmer & Günther Prien.

At 04.47 hours on 21 Sep, 1940, the Elmbank in convoy HX-72 was hit by one torpedo from U-99 and fell behind the convoy.

About 06.00 hours, the U-boat began shelling the ship, firing 88 rounds, many of them hitting the vessel.

After 15.00 hours, U-47 (Prien) helped to shell the abandoned Elmbank, setting her on fire.

Eventually, U-99 administered a coup de grâce and the ship sank south of Iceland.

[Letum]

Calm
C2
3 1/2 hours of shelling with 10.5
+3.5h aft decks awash, engines stopped
+3.75 no change
+4 no change
+4.35 sank by aft with a torpedo at 3m Amidships


After 3.5 hours of shelling I had used all of the shells on bord includeing starshells. Almost all had hit below the water line.
I finally forced to torp it as dawn was comeing fast and I was in a area where I had been attacked by aircraft before.

[CCIP]

That seems to suggest to me that possibly the shell power needs to be upped. Which is an easy matter :)

[Der Teddy Bar]

That seems to suggest to me that possibly the shell power needs to be upped. Which is an easy matter :)
Slow down big boy.... :rotfl:

He has not supplied any relevant data! Where exactly did he hit? How many shells did he do in each area? From there we can see if it was just a bad luck day as the shells have a wide HP spread to indirectly simulate different ships not sinking as easy as others.

It could be that as he is used to the old system he did not use about 15+ per compartment and instead maybe used 50 in one etc

I point this out as I need precise data to make relevent changes.

[CCIP]

I'm not saying we need to change anything now!

That said, I observed something similar as well the few times that I actually used my gun before. I will get you exact data if I have the chance.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Letum,
Please keep up the feedback, I however need for your to be more precise in the certain details.

What I require is something like the example below. Unless I get these details I am unable to know what compartments were damaged. If I do not know what compartments then I cannot adjust them etc

Liberty
12.02 Depth 4m - Magnetic - ahead of bridge 2-3 metres
12.08 Depth 6.2m - Magnetic - rear of bridge
14.17 Depth 2m - Impact - under smoke stack
14.18 WO & sunk

In this example,
Torpedo 1 even though it is magnetic we know it was an impact detonation because I know the ship and the torpedo depth.

I also know that the fuel bunker was hit, damage may have also occured to the engine room.

Torpedo 2 magnetic explosion with damage to the cargo space and again, possible damage to the engine room

Torpedo 3 impact torpedo to the engine room

The "WO" is the time that the telepathic officer tells you that the ship is sunk

The "Sunk" is when you feel that it is sunk.

Sometimes these are way different.

If you wanted, you may also add the following...
Liberty
12.02 Depth 4m - Magnetic - ahead of bridge 2-3 metres - ship sitting deeper on even keel
12.08 Depth 6.2m - Magnetic - rear of bridge - stern of ship at water level
14.17 Depth 2m - Impact - under smoke stack - sinks by stern
14.18 WO & sunk

This helps me visualise the damage.

The more feedback I get the more I can improve the NYGM Ship Damage Mod towards a more realistic if not somewhat rough representation of how it was.

Thanks guys!

[baxter]

On the issue of the power of the deck gun shells...I've had a chance to finish off a couple of shifts with my deck gun and so far I think the results are realistic. I've read about u-boats having spent long periods of time and many shells to sink a ship. At this point, I wouldn't want to see the power increased.

[iambecomelife]

On the issue of the power of the deck gun shells...I've had a chance to finish off a couple of shifts with my deck gun and so far I think the results are realistic. I've read about u-boats having spent long periods of time and many shells to sink a ship. At this point, I wouldn't want to see the power increased.

Yep. Beery & others found out that even ships of less than 5000 tons could often take nearly a hundred shells before sinking - some even if they already had torp damage.

[AG124]

When I tested out the Granville and Caribou, it seemed that they didn't take very many shells before foundering (I was careful to shell along the waterline to avoid a CTD break-up as neither had been edited to break in two).

I hope they turn out alright - both have been sent to the dev team so maybe they will change the damage files. :-?

[ref]

Elmbank a Motor merchant of 5.156 tons. Constructed in 1925.

This ship took 12 hours to sink and required 2 torpedoes and 100+ rounds of 88mm from two of the best, Otto Kretschmer & Günther Prien.

At 04.47 hours on 21 Sep, 1940, the Elmbank in convoy HX-72 was hit by one torpedo from U-99 and fell behind the convoy.

About 06.00 hours, the U-boat began shelling the ship, firing 88 rounds, many of them hitting the vessel.

After 15.00 hours, U-47 (Prien) helped to shell the abandoned Elmbank, setting her on fire.

Eventually, U-99 administered a coup de grâce and the ship sank south of Iceland.

Hey I don't want to start a battle here, it's just that I couldn' resist the temptation. :oops:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Hey I don't want to start a battle here, it's just that I couldn' resist the temptation. :oops:
No issue here :rotfl: It was a funny and reasonable comment.

[HEMISENT]

Teddy
Just installed the 1.36 version. So far I'm really impressed.
Did not do any sort of notes yet but
I ran into a tug boat approx 19:00 fading light, calm seas decided to gun it down.
the vessel took approximately 2 dozen hits from a range of 100-500m
15 or so hit at the waterline walking fire bow to stern, the rest either hit higher up or were low and wasted into the water. Vessel burned(no explosions) and took about 20 min to sink

14:06 calm seas excellent visibility attacked a convoy
fired 4 torpedoes all set impact @ 6.5m depth. Had to CD as DD's were coming on strong. Merchants took evasive action immediately 3 missed only one explosion was heard. Using outside view I find a C3 cargo was hit aft just forward of the rudder-prop gone. No fires/explosions, settling at the stern
15:36 ship finally sinks stern first/bow straight up.

Sorry, will try to be more precise with addl feedback-so far I like this a lot.

[bill clarke]

My first cruise with 1.36:
Barham single mission.
HMS Barham 1608
@9k
3 Eels
3m, Magnetic
90 degree
1 dud, 2 hits amidships starboard.

No immediate efect

1610
8k, small fire, no list.

1612
8k, small list to stabd

1619
7k, list increasing

1625
Lost contact.

[booger2005]

I ...then surfaced and opened up with the 8.8cm deck gun. 68 rounds later (69 fired, but the first one missed) the crew stopped firing...

Probably it sunks from overweight. :rotfl: :rotfl:

I do know that the deck gun is overpowered in sh3, but a small
vessel with a torpedo in it's guts and 68 rounds of explosive shells seems a bit to much.
Elmbank a Motor merchant of 5.156 tons. Constructed in 1925.

This ship took 12 hours to sink and required 2 torpedoes and 100+ rounds of 88mm from two of the best, Otto Kretschmer & Günther Prien.

At 04.47 hours on 21 Sep, 1940, the Elmbank in convoy HX-72 was hit by one torpedo from U-99 and fell behind the convoy.

About 06.00 hours, the U-boat began shelling the ship, firing 88 rounds, many of them hitting the vessel.

After 15.00 hours, U-47 (Prien) helped to shell the abandoned Elmbank, setting her on fire.

Eventually, U-99 administered a coup de grâce and the ship sank south of Iceland.

I agree with sailor steve, the smaller merchants are a bit too tough in this mod, IMHO. I think the key with the Elmbark was that it was over 5000 tons, significantly larger than the 2300 ton small merchant. With the smaller merchants, the damage effected a larger percentage of the ship, and torpedoe hits tended to be more catistrophic.

To gather evidence for this hypothesis of mine, I searched uboat.net for Norwegian ships sunk, selected all merchants between 1900 and 2500 gr tons (the size range of small/coastal merchants, and those with pictures looked a lot like them), and subsequently looked them up on warsailors.com, so there would be no controversy over the "privledged" nature of uboat.net's infoand also because warsailors usually gives a better description. I must admit the assumption that Norway's merchants in this size range are similar to England's etc. so that the statisics I found were applicable for all other ships in this range. I then organized the ships into categories based on number of torpedoes required to sink the ship, time for the ship to sink (10min ish quick or slow), and finally a category for other/unknown/etc. Here are my findings:

One torpedo, quick (10 or less minutes or keywords in description such as shortly)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/bennestvet.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/bayard.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/bill.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/bris.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/bruse.html (Although only 1/2 sank..)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/gunny.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/ingerelisabeth.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/janna.html (Though uboat.net estimates longer)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/lindvangen.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/navarra.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/siremalm.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/steinstad.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/torny.html

One torpedo, quick (Incidents in warsailors clarified by uboat.net)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/nordvangen.html (uboat.net says 1 torp,1 minute)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/skrim.html (uboat.net says 1 torp, 63 sec)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/polyana.html (1 torp hit, not 2.)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/sveinjarl.html (time not metioned though)

One Torpedoe, slow
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/fagersten.html (uboat.net says 10 minutes)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/helle.html
http://www.warsailors.com/freefleet/norfleets6.html#Sy (Sydfold)

One torpedo, shelling, slow
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/einvik.html (25 105 mm Shells)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/torungen.html

Two torpedoes, quick
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/baghdad.html

Two torpedoes, slow
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/skottland.html

Not mentioned/ unknown/ other
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/belize.html
http://www.warsailors.com/freefleet/norfleetb2.html#Bes (The Bestum)
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/christiankrohg.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/gunda.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/spind.html
http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/tolosa.html

As you can see, the most often known occurance was for a ship in this range to sink quickly from a single hit, sometimes even in 60 seconds. (The quickest sinking was 5 seconds :o ) Subsequent damage being required to sink these ships seems to be the exception, not the rule, although there are other factors such a cargo weight and boilers exploding or not.

I've also spot checked slightly above and below the range and found that as tonnage goes below 1900, quick, 1 torpedoe sinkings are incresingly more likely and above this range, 1 torpedo increasingly becomes not enough, but I don't have hard statistics as of now.

I think for larger ships you are dead on :up: , but IMHO the damage model for the small/coastal merchants needs some more attention ;) .

[Sailor Steve]

I ...then surfaced and opened up with the 8.8cm deck gun. 68 rounds later (69 fired, but the first one missed) the crew stopped firing...

Probably it sunks from overweight. :rotfl: :rotfl:

I do know that the deck gun is overpowered in sh3, but a small
vessel with a torpedo in it's guts and 68 rounds of explosive shells seems a bit to much.
Elmbank a Motor merchant of 5.156 tons. Constructed in 1925.

This ship took 12 hours to sink and required 2 torpedoes and 100+ rounds of 88mm from two of the best, Otto Kretschmer & Günther Prien.

At 04.47 hours on 21 Sep, 1940, the Elmbank in convoy HX-72 was hit by one torpedo from U-99 and fell behind the convoy.

About 06.00 hours, the U-boat began shelling the ship, firing 88 rounds, many of them hitting the vessel.

After 15.00 hours, U-47 (Prien) helped to shell the abandoned Elmbank, setting her on fire.

Eventually, U-99 administered a coup de grâce and the ship sank south of Iceland.
I had a frustrating experience last night, but after reading that report I think the shells are just about right, at least so far.

I torpedoed a medium merchant (C2) and he slowed down from seven to six knots. A second torpedo caused an explosion with fireball, but there was no further fire to be seen. Two minutes later the ship stopped, and a couple of minutes after that smoke stopped coming out of the funnel (I thought that was cool). After an hour or so there was no change-he was still listing to port and down by the stern with the aft deck slightly awash. I gave him 20 rounds from the deck gun, and after no change finally decided to give him the coup de grace. I pulled around and let him have one from the stern tube, after which he sank almost immediately.

I still like it so far.

After 3.5 hours of shelling I had used all of the shells on bord includeing starshells. Almost all had hit below the water line.
One thing to note here is that U-boats in real life carried no Starshell or AP, only HE. I've modded that in my basic.cfg file, so all my shots are HE.

[Kalach]

I've also noticed the small merchant and tramp steamer often take 2-3 torps to sink.

Other than those everything feels just right :) .

[Der Teddy Bar]

I've also noticed the small merchant and tramp steamer often take 2-3 torps to sink.

Other than those everything feels just right :) .
Thanks for the feedback.

My experience has been more of 50% sinking with 1 torpedo and for the other 50% I have a 100% 2 torpedo.

Have you read the read me and the various posts where I describe how the compartments work and that a torpedo in the same compartment will mean very little or nothing in assisting the the ship to sink?

Also, how long have you waited? Generally speaking the ships may yake anywhere from 10 minutes up to 2 hours with most under 1 hour.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Sailor Steve,
Where did the first and second torpedo hit and where did you target with the deck gun? Then, how long did you wait.

The deck gun effect seems to take a lot longer to occur than a torpedo.

When finishing off a ship make sure not to target an area that for example may result in the rearward sinking ship coming back onto a more even keel.

Also, remember that hitting the same compartment will mean very little or nothing in assisting the the ship to sink?

[Der Teddy Bar]

booger2005,
GREAT stuff. It will take me a while to look through it all. I will reply then.

[booger2005]

;) OK. Enjoy the read, it may take an hour or two. But be warned, warsailor's gives the merchant perspective and some of the accounts are really sad. :(

[booger2005]

Check uboat.net's events of the day, 27 Jan if you get a chance. It appears that the 9000 some odd ton tanker 'Pan Norway' was sunk by combined 105/37mm fire. Here is the same ship on warsailor's

http://www.warsailors.com/singleships/pannorway.html

[bill clarke]

Last night I played the happy times single mission, did not get to writing everything down though, but the hardest one to sink was a large tanker it absorbed 3 eels, almost my entire supply of AP, and a dozen HE, and took 2 hours to sink.
Had me thinking it was the reincarnation of the tanker Ohio. :D

[Kalach]

I've also noticed the small merchant and tramp steamer often take 2-3 torps to sink.

Other than those everything feels just right :) .
Thanks for the feedback.

My experience has been more of 50% sinking with 1 torpedo and for the other 50% I have a 100% 2 torpedo.

Have you read the read me and the various posts where I describe how the compartments work and that a torpedo in the same compartment will mean very little or nothing in assisting the the ship to sink?

Also, how long have you waited? Generally speaking the ships may yake anywhere from 10 minutes up to 2 hours with most under 1 hour.


I will usauly wait for 2 hours after a torpedo impact if it looks like the ship may sink, after that I will either give it an additional hour or torpedo.
I have been very careful to make sure my torps don't hit close to each other and that they will stay below the water line.
From memory I'd say 1/3 of the small ships I hit with a single torp sink, most will go down after 2 but ~10% of them require 3 hits.
Also I sank a Revenge BB with 4 evenly spaced torps from the bow to the middle of the ship at 3m depth. The strange thing was that it didn't split in half or have a huge explosion, it just rolled over and sank within a minute :doh: .


I'll try to get some proper results for you :) , these are just going from memory.

[Der Teddy Bar]

booger2005,
Love your feed back, but did you read the 'read me'? Well did ya? :rotfl:

Critical Chance i.e. BOOM simulate instant sinkings even if the boat does not sink instantly. There is nothing more that I can do.

Nothing will ever sink in less than 3+ minutes.

The deck gun is difficult due to the simplistic way damage and thus flooding is done. It is a very fine line between a reasobaly effective gun and an Uber gun. Also, the deck gun does not have a Critcal Chance affect i.e. a BOOM.

My experience with Tramps & Small Merchants has been more of 50% sinking with 1 torpedo and for the other 50% I have a 100% 2 torpedo. The 1 torpedo has a few BOOMs.

To everyone, I will just repeat that the feed back has been great, but what I require is something like the example below. Unless I get these details I am unable to know what compartments were damaged. If I do not know what compartments then I cannot adjust them etc

Liberty
12.02 Depth 4m - Magnetic - ahead of bridge 2-3 metres
12.08 Depth 6.2m - Magnetic - rear of bridge
14.17 Depth 2m - Impact - under smoke stack
14.18 WO & sunk

In this example,
Torpedo 1 even though it is magnetic we know it was an impact detonation because I know the ship and the torpedo depth.

I also know that the fuel bunker was hit, damage may have also occured to the engine room.

Torpedo 2 magnetic explosion with damage to the cargo space and again, possible damage to the engine room

Torpedo 3 impact torpedo to the engine room

The "WO" is the time that the telepathic officer tells you that the ship is sunk

The "Sunk" is when you feel that it is sunk.

Sometimes these are way different.

If you wanted, you may also add the following...
Liberty
12.02 Depth 4m - Magnetic - ahead of bridge 2-3 metres - ship sitting deeper on even keel
12.08 Depth 6.2m - Magnetic - rear of bridge - stern of ship at water level
14.17 Depth 2m - Impact - under smoke stack - sinks by stern
14.18 WO & sunk

This helps me visualise the damage.

The same goes for the deck gun info.


Once I then have a large pool of data from a large cross section then I can see what is happening overall.

[bill clarke]

auxillary Cruiser
1750 3m magnetic
fist eel stbd just behind first mast -- Message "taget destroyed",
second eel just behind rear bridge.

1752 ship still moving but settling by the bow, fires from bow to sten.
1753 Decks awash, sinking by stern.
1754 gone under.

Large Tanker
1759 3m magnetic
1 eel portside forward of smoke stack, instanly destroyed, ship breaks in half, massive fire amidships, sinking immeadiatly.
1803 ship gone.

hope this helps.

[Der Teddy Bar]

bill clarke,
Yes bill it is good, thanks.

Are you using the Auto TDC or manual? If Auto, are you using the recognition manual and if so, what compartments are you targeting.

BTW, if not aiming under the keel I suggest turning the magnetic detonation off as using it might result in a premature detonation.

[CCIP]

Running my current WaW patrol, I'm pretty happy with the torpedo/kill ratio so far.

Out of six ships, the sinkings so far were

1) Liberty - 4 torpedoes
2) Coastal - 1 torpedo
3) Coastal - 2 torpedoes
4) C3 - 2 torpedoes + 30 shells
5) Small - 2 torpedoes + all other shells (most missed)
6) C3 - 1 torpedo

[Sailor Steve]

Sailor Steve,
Where did the first and second torpedo hit and where did you target with the deck gun? Then, how long did you wait.

The deck gun effect seems to take a lot longer to occur than a torpedo.

When finishing off a ship make sure not to target an area that for example may result in the rearward sinking ship coming back onto a more even keel.

Also, remember that hitting the same compartment will mean very little or nothing in assisting the the ship to sink?
I'm not sure where the torpedoes hit. It took place during my regular patrol, not a special session, so I was busy writing it down on paper at the same time I was playing. As to the deck gun, I let myself get frustrated and gave him the last torpedo almost immediately.

My fault for not paying attention. On the other hand, I said the experience was frustrating-I didn't say I didn't believe it. It all seemed quite real at the time.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Sailor Steve,
The only reason I ask is all input is appreciated and the more detail I can get from many people the more I undertsnad how the mod is behaving for the wider base and if/and where, and most importantly, if possible, I will update the NTGM SD Mod to suit.

[bill clarke]

bill clarke,
Yes bill it is good, thanks.

Are you using the Auto TDC or manual? If Auto, are you using the recognition manual and if so, what compartments are you targeting.

BTW, if not aiming under the keel I suggest turning the magnetic detonation off as using it might result in a premature detonation.

Auto TDC mate, not using the recognition manual unless I go for a keel shot. I am just aiming to try and spread the shots across the hull, guess I got lucky with the AC and Tanker, but overall I like this mod very much, as I said before if the fires could be improved visually and add to the damage (they must over time affect the structural integrity of the ship ) it would be even better.

Cheers mate.

[booger2005]

I don't think we're going to be hearing very much bragging about how many times over someone is Otto Kretchmer if they are using this mod.

100K officers club? :rotfl: You'll need a 50K one For NYGM users. As it should be ;)

[booger2005]

OK Teddy, its your mod. If you think the small merchats are right, I can live with that. :yep: Just thought you might like to see the info.

BTW: Yes, I did read the readme. :know: Brilliantly done, and I know you have critical chance associated with compartments, etc. The point I was making was that I was wondering if possibly ship sinking times should be decreased/critical chance values increased for this class, but as I said I defer to your judgement. :ahoy:

I realy like this mod, else I wouldn't be commenting so much about it. :up:

[Der Teddy Bar]

OK Teddy, its your mod. If you think the small merchats are right, I can live with that. :yep: Just thought you might like to see the info.
Oh thats too easy :rotfl:

I want and encourage an open discussion. I want that if someone feels that they are right to argue the point, hopefully as well as you did.

If you still feel that the smaller merchants, as far as torpedos are concerned are not both sinking fast enough or often enough with a single torpedo I will need more in-game feed back. I am still very much open to making changes to the small merchants but not with such a small amount of feedback.


BTW: Yes, I did read the readme. :know: Brilliantly done, and I know you have critical chance associated with compartments, etc. The point I was making was that I was wondering if possibly ship sinking times should be decreased/critical chance values increased for this class, but as I said I defer to your judgement. :ahoy:

I realy like this mod, else I wouldn't be commenting so much about it. :up:
Just because you did not convince me this time does not mean that I cannot be convinced at another time. I will say again, want and encourage an open discussion.

[Salvadoreno]

before i install this mod to see what all the hooplaw is about. I wanted to know if it is compatible with the endless amount of mods i have. I tried to install it but got nervous when it overwrote a lot o f my mods.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2849/mods0su.th.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mods0su.jpg)

[Marhkimov]

It looks like it will work. Other things will get overrided, but nothing that you should worry about. :up:

[Salvadoreno]

thx for the quick reply marhrk! this mod is gonna be awesome once perfected

[Letum]

this mod overwrites more than it needs to. I haope this is fixed in the new release

[Clyde00]

I put three torps, impact heads, range 800, aimed just ahead of the bridge, aob 81 degress, 1 meter depth (very stormy weather 15m seas). I miscalculated all the torpedo angles, but one torp hit just behind the first mast in the bow, the second one hit about 2 feet behind the first one toward the bridge.
After about 1 and a half hours, the ship slowed and started to list.
I waited another 15 minutes and got credit for the kill on the captain's log screen (even though the ship was still 40% above the water, but about 80 degrees listed to port). The depth of the water is 26meters here and I could see the bow touching the bottom possibly keeping the stern in the air.
I left the area and turned toward base, when I got back I didn't get credit for the kill. I reloaded a saved game and this time sat around till the ship was completely under. I returned to base and saw I got credit for the kill. It seems that if I leave the area after the ship sunk message, I sometimes don't get credit for the kill. If I wait around till the ship is completely under, it seems as if I get credit. About 6 hours after the ship sunk message, the stern finally went down and the whole ship was resting on the bottom.

I have several mods active, RUB 1.45, HT 1.47, NYGM Camp. 1.1 for RUb, Hollywood special effects, newest NYGM Damage mod, Sh3 Commander 2.4 and a few custom graphics files for the sub. Has anyone ever experieced this? I found that it happens when mostly in very shallow waters.
I started a new campaign, and sunk a friendly destroyer while sitting in the sub pens. The ship sunk to the bottom with everything that was above half the bridge out of water and I got credit for that. Weird bug perhaps? Any ideas anyone?

[Clyde00]

Forgot to add that all mods are installed with JSGME and I am using the ShcCommander seasonal waves option. Perhaps the ship is sinking due to the weather and not my torp hits?

[bill clarke]

Some more feed back for you da Teddy Bar,
Large Tanker
06.04 Impact 4mts
1st eel under forward bridge stbd.
2nd eel extreme stern, stbd propeller carried away, rudder jammed hard to port.
ship beginns to fall out of line.
0620, port prop stops, ship listing to stbd, down by the stern.
0626 message "enemy unit destroyed"
Ship sinks by the stern.

I do not know how the hit on the stern occurred as i was aiming for the area well behind the bridge, however it looks as if it was the crippling hit that doomed the vessel.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Some more feed back for you da Teddy Bar,
Large Tanker
06.04 Impact 4mts
1st eel under forward bridge stbd.
2nd eel extreme stern, stbd propeller carried away, rudder jammed hard to port.
ship beginns to fall out of line.
0620, port prop stops, ship listing to stbd, down by the stern.
0626 message "enemy unit destroyed"
Ship sinks by the stern.

I do not know how the hit on the stern occurred as i was aiming for the area well behind the bridge, however it looks as if it was the crippling hit that doomed the vessel.
Nice feedback. At what time did you consider the ship sunk? While there is little I can do about this, it is nice to know.

Nice to see that a T3 Large Tanker can be sunk with 2 torpedos.

[bill clarke]

In all honesty mate, I'd say she was sunk aound the time that the computer said so 0626, she had been making way till the engines stopped probably as a result of the damage stern, although with the rudder jammed she was going nowhere fast.
the other night I torpedoed a Everts class DD coming at me, it was a stern shot which detonated under the extreem stern, took of both screws and the rudder, and took out the depth charge racks. But she stayed afloat for more than an hour I think, In the end the convoy was way out of reach, so I circled back and put an eel in to her which hit just under the bridge, she brok in half and sank, with the stern and bow just protruding out of the water for a while before slipping under.

[Der Teddy Bar]

the other night I torpedoed a Everts class DD coming at me, it was a stern shot which detonated under the extreem stern, took of both screws and the rudder, and took out the depth charge racks. But she stayed afloat for more than an hour I think, In the end the convoy was way out of reach, so I circled back and put an eel in to her which hit just under the bridge, she broke in half and sank, with the stern and bow just protruding out of the water for a while before slipping under.
Nice...

[uhu]

Teddy, your new mod works great, sinkings are much more real, the only thing, what I imagined, that ships, which has some torps in its stomachs, (2, or even 3! - it was a light tanker) don't seems to slow down. Or, for minutes, they slow down, but after again normal speed.

[baxter]

Teddy,
I love this mod, I think this is one of the very best improvements ever created for this game. The uncertainty that comes after a ship has been torpedoed makes this so interesting..."how long should I wait to see if it sinks? should I use another torpedo and continue to persue the convoy? or should I conserve my torpedos and wait longer? where is the ship I know I hit but can't find after diving to avoid escorts?" I got especially tired of every Coastal Merchant and Small Merchant sinking immediately after one torpedo. Thanks so much for all your work on this and for making it available.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Teddy, your new mod works great, sinkings are much more real, the only thing, what I imagined, that ships, which has some torps in its stomachs, (2, or even 3! - it was a light tanker) don't seems to slow down. Or, for minutes, they slow down, but after again normal speed.
I will note this, but if I read the post correctly this is a once off instance? I would also presume so, as I don't recollect having the same occurrences. If so, it will be noted in pencil rather than red.

Now mitigating circumstances, I have noted from feedback across the forums that a few players have been getting non impact detonations. That is, the torpedo is hitting the ship and because of the Angle of Impact the torpedo is bouncing off and then detonating at depth. The assumption is they hit the ship, happened a lot during the war as well.

I need a more precise attack report that lets me know where the torpedo hit so that I know what compartment was or was not damaged.

Large Tanker
06.04 Impact 4mts - 1st eel under forward bridge stbd. 2nd eel extreme stern, stbd propeller carried away, rudder jammed hard to port. ship beginns to fall out of line.
0620, port prop stops, ship listing to stbd, down by the stern.
0626 message "enemy unit destroyed"
Ship sinks by the stern.

[booger2005]

Teddy, your new mod works great, sinkings are much more real, the only thing, what I imagined, that ships, which has some torps in its stomachs, (2, or even 3! - it was a light tanker) don't seems to slow down. Or, for minutes, they slow down, but after again normal speed.

Hey, that's probably not intentional, but it is realistic. Descriptions of ship sinkings on uboat.net and warsailors.com are consistent with what you observe. I guess part of the protocol for abandoning a ship is to secure (i e shut off) the engines if at all possible. As soon as a ship is hit, the master oders the engines to be secure, hence the slowdown. Then, after assesing the situation, if the ship can be salvaged under its own power, the master will order the engines to be restarted to continue underway. The engines develop a massive amount of power, so if a ship was well below its top speed when it was hit, it probably could continue on for a while at that speed. In real life the ship would have to use more RPM to maintain the same speed to overcome some extra weight and drag. I doubt thats modeled though :hmm:

[Der Teddy Bar]

I was wondering if possibly ship sinking times should be decreased/critical chance values increased for this class
I am taking this under consideration.

[Soviet_Warlord]

I still think that destroyers take a tad too long to sink after being torpedoed... one destroyer, torpedoed right under the bridge, took about 2 1/2 hours to sink... destroyers shouldn't be comparable in sinking time to the Titanic :P

[bill clarke]

Hello Teddy, more to report from the war office:

Last night I torpedoed two troopships, both hits were 4m impact, both hits just forward of the bridge, instantly destroyed , however both ships continues to move forward whilst fires burned along their length, and they trailed burning oil behind them.
both ships sank on an even keel, about 6 to 8 minutes later.

Any ideas on this one teddy ?

[Jochen Mohr]

Torpedoed a T3 with 4 Torpedos,all hits Ship under Funnel.

Ship began to sink over Backbord(left),and after 1 Hour,I get the Message "Schiff gesunken".

[Der Teddy Bar]

Torpedoed a T3 with 4 Torpedos,all hits Ship under Funnel.

Ship began to sink over Backbord(left),and after 1 Hour,I get the Message "Schiff gesunken".
Thanks for the reply. I hope the advice below may assist in you attaining more kills with fewer torpedos :up:

With the NYGM SD Mod the ships now sink via flooding and no longer run out of HP's. The old system was 3 to 4 torpedos always BOOM. Now, it will take at least 12.

For a ship to sink now you need to flood 1, but generally 2 or more compartments. The compartments are generally between the masts. As such more than 1 torpedo on the same compartment, 75% of the time, will give no extra result. Of the 25% of the time, the result is small and as a general rule, is not worth the effort.

I encourage you to have a read of the Read Me doc included.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Hello Teddy, more to report from the war office:

Last night I torpedoed two troopships, both hits were 4m impact, both hits just forward of the bridge, instantly destroyed , however both ships continues to move forward whilst fires burned along their length, and they trailed burning oil behind them.
both ships sank on an even keel, about 6 to 8 minutes later.

Any ideas on this one teddy ?
Yep, your a legend :rotfl:

There is little that I can do with what you report as this behaviour is based upon the ships 'uniqueness' after you achieved a Critical Chance.

If I could do something about it I would remove the 'BOOM' effect and just have the ship sink suddenly.

Just a note for all Auto TDC users, I do want your feedback, I do however need to consider it differently, so I would be appreciative if you could clearly state that your are using Auto TDC.

[Der Teddy Bar]

I still think that destroyers take a tad too long to sink after being torpedoed... one destroyer, torpedoed right under the bridge, took about 2 1/2 hours to sink... destroyers shouldn't be comparable in sinking time to the Titanic :P
Kids now days just have no patience :rotfl:

You were also not happy with the destroyer that sank in 15 minutes!

wrote:
After striking the centre of this Destroyer (I think it was a Type C) with a torpedo about 2-3 metres below the waterline, the ship kept on steaming for another 10 minutes before slowly sinking. There was no sign of flooding for the first number of minutes.

Personally I think that Destroyers should sink fast if they are topedoed, since they are relatively small and sacrifice armour for agility. I think that most torpedo hits on destroyers ought to be critical.

Thats my only gripe so far, ships are really sinking much more realistically now

I welcome and encourage your input, I am open to suggestions and ideas etc, but seriously, I need more than 2 ‘one of’s’ to make any changes. Without knowing the type of ship I also cannot make improvements anyway. You have not told me which ship, as for example, the escorts are actually split into two groups with separate settings for each.

The BOOM (i.e. Critical Chance=) poorly represents an instant kill with the ‘hulk’ sinking fairly fast.

I also need you to substantiate your claim regarding your thoughts that a Destroyer that has not received a Critical Chance hit should never take more than a few minutes to sink. I feel differently, I have also shown some instances in previous posts to support my position, I will today add to that. You will note from the previous examples and those of today, that essentially all the ‘well’ sunk destroyers received 2 torpedos. That is not to say that there were not single hit sinking’s.

I hope that you will continue to contribute.

===============================================

At 10.57 hours, on 28 February, the USS Jacob Jones was hit by two torpedoes fired by U-578, while proceeding completely blacked out at 15 knots. The first torpedo struck on the port side just aft of the bridge and ignited the ship´s magazine. The explosion completely destroyed the bridge, the chart room and the officer´s and petty officer´s quarters. As the ship stopped, the second torpedo struck on the port side about 40 feet forward of the fantail and carried away the after part of the ship above the keel plates and shafts and destroyed the after crew´s quarters. The ship remained afloat for 45 minutes, allowing about 30 survivors to abandon ship on four or five rafts. But as the stern sank, the unsecured depth charges exploded, killing several survivors on a nearby raft.

===============================================
At 10.54 hours on 20 Mar, 1942, the HMS Heythrop was hit by one of four fired torpedoes from U-652 about 40 miles northeast of Bardia and was then taken in tow by the British destroyer HMS Eridge towards Tobruk, but foundered five hours later.

===============================================
At 02.27 hours on 26 Mar, 1942, the HMS Jaguar (F 34) (Lt P.F. Cole) was attacked by U-652 with a spread of four torpedoes northest of Sollum. Two of the torpedoes struck in the bow, the ship caught fire and sank in a short time.

===============================================
At 02.05 hours on 14 Sep, 1942, U-91 fired a spread of two torpedoes at a destroyer and observed a hit. Then they saw another destroyer, made a full circle and fired at 02.15 hours one torpedo, which hit amidships and caused the ship to blew up and sink immediately. Walkerling thought that they had sunk two destroyers, but in fact the HMCS Ottawa (H 60) (LtCdr C.A. Rutherford RCN), escorting convoy ON-127, was hit twice.

===============================================
At 19.55 hours on 20 Sep, 1942, U-703 fired a spread of three torpedoes at the HMS Somali (G 33) (LtCdr C. Maud) and saw one hit after 1 minute 32 seconds. The destroyer had escorted the convoy PQ-18 to Murmansk and was now screening QP-14 on her homebound voyage. HMS Ashanti (G 51) had unsuccessfully hunted a U-boat about 20 miles behind the convoy and rejoined at full speed, but was then low on fuel oil. She thus changed places with HMS Somali (G 33) on the inner screen to await a favourable opportunity to refuel. Shortly after taking position in the outer screen, the HMS Somali (G 33) was hit by one torpedo. The explosion blew the torpedo tubes over the side and cut all of the port side main stringers so that the ship was only held together by the upper deck and starboard side as far as the keel. The port engine fell through the bottom of the ship and the engine and gear rooms filled with water. The leaking bulkheads on either side were promptly shored up and seemed to be holding but there was no light or power except from an unreliable auxiliary diesel generator which powered the bilge pumps.
The British rescue ship Zamalek stood-by within minutes after the hit, but she was sent back to the convoy. The HMS Lord Middleton (FY 219) then took off most of the crew and transferred them to other ships. Only a skeleton crew of 80 men were left aboard and all were forbidden to go below except for any critical work. HMS Ashanti (G 51) then took her crippled sister ship in tow, cruising at a slow 7 knots in a flat and calm sea, that was ideal for towing and for revealing periscope wakes. The tow wire parted company, but they managed to rig up a new line and both ships continued to crawl to Akureyri, Iceland. That evening, the dynamo of HMS Somali (G 33) seized up so hand pumps were used for the bilge. These could not cope with the inflow of water so the 17° list increased. With the donation of many electrical cables from other ships, an emergency power umbilical was rigged up from the towing ship to another destroyer and the bilge pumps started operating again, reducing the list to 12°. Power was also available for lighting and cooking as well.

In the night on 23/24 September, the weather was getting worse north of Iceland in 69°00N/15°30W (a distance of 420 miles) and her plates were groaning terribly. In the middle of a snow squall, observers on the bridge of HMS Ashanti (G 51) saw a blue flash behind them. The towline and the electric cable had snapped and a piece of the cable was hanging over the stern. Quickly, a searchlight was brought to bear on the crippled ship. By now, HMS Somali (G 33) had folded in half like a hinge with bow and stern climbing skywards. For a moment, she hung motionlessly; the deckplating then snapped and her bulkheads collapsed. Her stern capsized and sank quickly and the bow went vertically and steadily, only 35 men of the skeleton crew could be rescued.

===============================================
The USS Hambleton (DD 455) laid anchored off Fedhala and was struck by one torpedo amidships. The vessel lost all power and took a 12° list to starboard, but did not sink. The destroyer was later towed to Casablanca for temporary repairs. Seabees there cut the ship in two, removed a 40-foot section of her damaged hull, then joined the two remaining halves together. On 28 June, the USS Hambleton (DD 455), accompanied by a tug, reached Boston for permanent repairs.

[HEMISENT]

Teddy.
I know this isn't the exact data you're looking for but I thought I'd send this along anyway.
Just my impressions on your ship damage mod as this is the first warship confrontation I've experienced
Jan 29 1942
Stalking a medium size convoy heading 094 at 7kts making for Gibralter.
Weather is stormy with heavy seas perfect for hiding in among the waves on the surface. We had already sunk one C2 cargo and had been able to make single hits on two others over the last 5 - 6 hours. One of which was straggling and I figured on catching him once the nights business had been taken care of.

While running surfaced at flank speed attempting to get ahead of the convoy and once again gain the advantage We stumbled across a Black Swan from out of the dark approximately 1800m. Since the Swan showed no signs that we had been detected I altered course a bit to the south hoping to skirt around him and once again disappear into the night. Unfortunately the Sloop shortly after changed course and the chase was on.

My VIIC was doing a very admirable job of cutting thru the heavy seas while I noticed the Swan was spending more time riding up and over, at any rate she was unable to get any closer than 1500m. Her forward deck gun was attempting to engage us but all shots were going wild. At one point we were running roughly parallel to each other with the swan off my port side. I had an inspiration and ordered the deck gun crew to stations taking a chance that they actually would be able to man the gun.

Out of a couple dozen shots my crew was actually able to connect with two, one of which hit on the elevated forward gun platform. The enemy fire was gradually getting the range and walking its way closer and closer. At the time I decided to pull the plug our boat also took damage to the after crew area. Enough was enough and down we went.

Apparently the Swan had accomplished the mission and had driven us down thinking the threat had been averted. She changed course to the northeast and headed back for the convoy. After realizing that we were not to be pursued I ordered the boat to surface and once again charged ahead at flank. After about a half hour of running free The swan suddenly appeared at full speed once again from the north. This time She had seen us and all forward guns were firing scoring a few minor hits to our forward torpedo and crew compartments. I immediately altered course to show her the stern. Once again the closest she could get was around 1500m but her gunners now had the range. I ordered PD and readied the stern tube for magnetic detonation. Bearing 180 deg/AOB 0 deg./depth 5m.

Gradually the Swan approached zig-zagging. I'm sure our scope was not yet visible but at 500m her course straightened out and she came in straight as an arrow. At 04:30 I fired our stern eel at 400m and ordered crash dive with no course alteration. It seemed no sooner had the scope run back into the well than we heard an explosion very close by. The torpedo blew somewhere aft of the bridge. No visible damage was noticed, speed remained constant but the ship immediately altered course and made a straight run back to the convoy. I observed the ship with the free cam and for the longest time I thought that the Swan had only suffered some minor damage.
04:40 the stern is beginning to ride a bit lower speed appears gradually reducing.
04:42 speed now down to around 5kts stern now considerably lower in the water, waves swamping rear deck area.
04:43 speed down to barely making headway, bow starting to ride higher.
04:44 stern completely under, bow is rising dramatically
04:44:30 vessel is perfectly vertical, large detonations underwater
04:45 bow finally slips under.

The ship took a lot longer to sink than pre-NYGM. There were no explosions, fire, smoke etc. The ship showed no sign of any sustained damage for the first 10 minutes then her situation rapidly deteriorated and it was all over.

Right now this mod has added soooo much to my gameplay and the overall experience I cannot tell you how much I'm enjoying this.

Thanks once again.

[Rubini]

Hemisent,

As usual a nice and interesting report! :up:

Rubini.

[HEMISENT]

Thanks Rubini.
This damage mod really has me excited. Seems like it's changed the gameplay around 180deg.
This same convoy I've been stalking has taken me forever to get ahead and re-positioned. Let loose a spread of four set at impact and only noticed one hit on the far side-very discouraging. On my exit I did catch my C2 straggler moping along at 5 kts , down by the bow . Funny thing was there was a Flower which was circling the wounded ship then speeding up to guard the convoy then back to the straggler again.
Seems the AI was sheparding the stricken vessel yet still maintaining his escort position at the rear of the herd. Never ran into this before.
The Flower noticed me(it was light out by now and drove me down). After awhile he headed back to the main convoy and I was able to approach once again on the surface and hit him with a magnetic right up his stern.
The damn thing still wouldn't sink. Finally stayed surfaced and pumped 70 - 80 rounds into the waterline and was successful.
This ship had originally been hit 7 or 8 hours earlier. Very immersive gameplay.

[Der Teddy Bar]

HEMISENT,
Great read!

In the near future I will be further modifying the NYGM Ship Damage Mod.

1. Small & Coastal Merchant - look at shortening sinking times, increase Critical Chance
2. Tweak escorts
3. Increase random effect of deck gun
4. Random chance of knocking out deck gun on merchants & escorts

[bill clarke]

Der Teddy Bar, mate I have not had a chance to play in the last week, too bloody hot here and i have been a tad busy.
But fear not I will be back in to it this weekend and give you some feed back.

[bill clarke]

As promised:

Illustrious CV
Auto TDC
3 eels, 5mts, 0902.

First: just behind stbd 5.25 battery.

Second: under island.

Third: between aft boat cranes.

0904 Ship starting to list.
0906 speed 4kts.
0908 ship still making way, list increasing.
0913 prop wash begining to to show on port side, engine sounds very rough.
0919 0kts, props still turning, stbd side life boats under water.
0923 props stopped.
0928 ship still afloat.
1005 1 eel, 3mts, port side amidships, ship destroyed, ship sinks on stbd beam.

Troop Tpt
Auto TDC
1 eel 5mts 0911

eel hits under bridge
No immediate effects on ship.

0915 Second eel, 3mts
impact under last set of life rafts, ship destroyed (explosions, and debris flung in to the air). Continues sailing forward, fires burning along length of ship. Sinking on even keel.
0918 water wash's over deck, ship sinks horizontally.

I would be interested to here your thoughts on the Illustrious, I am curious to know why the 4 th eel port side doomed her, if anything it should have helped to counter the stbd list.
Is it possible for you to approximate the stbd side damage done by my eels ?

More update later mate.

Cheers.

[bill clarke]

Another:

Clemson DD
Auto TDC
1 eel, 3mts 0822

Impact behind bridge, stbd, instantly destroyed, massive blast, many bodies throwen in to sea.

0826 Ship still afloat, moving forward.
0828 Water over deck, ship sinks by the stern
0829 Ship gone.


Small Tanker
Auto TDC
1 eel, 3mts, 0852

impact extreme stern potside, both screws gone, rudder jammed over to stbd.

0854 ship still moving forward.
0856 second eel 3mts
Impact bow forward of bridge port side.
0858 Engines stopped, ship still moving forward.
0901 Stern rising slowly out of water, ship still making headway.
0904 ship stopped.
0916 Decks awash, stern clear of water rudder visible.
0939 Ship still afloat.
1036 3rd eel, portside, midships forward of rear mast in well area, fire starts.
1043 Still afloat.
1054 Fourth eel 3mts, impact behind bridge in well area, fires increasing.
1056 Bow submerged.
1106 Message "enemy unit destroyed", ship sinks rapidly.
1107 Stern sticking vertically out of water.
1108 ship gone :D

That was tough mate.

[zombiewolf]

when I use the mod installer,I get a message that Not your G....damage mode is overwriting not you grammas rub and vice a versa.
Does this make a differerence at all.
It hasn't cradhed.
knock on wood :rock:

[Der Teddy Bar]

bill clarke,
Your feedback is greatly appreciated and nicely detailed. Very helpfull.

The Illustrious, sank because the flooding was greater than the ships remaining boyancy.

The starboard damage would have occured as follows...
Torpedo 1 - ammo and/or cargo space
Torpedo 2 - engine room
Torpedo 3 - ammo and/or cargo space

As far as the small tanker goes, it is also possible that the first torpedo did no more than damage the propellor and rudder. The tanker might also have required a little more patience as they do have a slow sink time compared to other ships as I was working that though water is heavier than oil the transfer would be slowish.

[Stiebler]

Zombiewolf said:
when I use the mod installer,I get a message that Not your G....damage mode is overwriting not you grammas rub and vice a versa.
Does this make a differerence at all.
It hasn't cradhed.

I noticed the same effect, since I use the RUb mod all the time.
Having just completed a full war campaign (1939-1945) with the NYGM damage mod installed, I can say that the damage mod does not appear to cause any problems at all.

J Scones' JSGME mod is very clever and creates back-ups of overlays, as well as of the initial mod installed. That's why you get the warning about overlaying something - it has recognised a double overlay onto the original SH3, and isn't sure if you really meant it.

The NYGM damage mod is absolutely fabulous - it's staying on my RUb. Well done Teddy Bar!

Stiebler.

[KaleunPeter]

The NYGM damage mod is absolutely fabulous
Indeed, I have to second this. Absolutely fabulous.

While I only played two patrols with all of the current three NYGM mods so far, the game feels new and much more challenging to me. All three NYGM mods revamp the game drastically, and overall to the better.

Experience with the damage model is good and extremely obvious. I've had a lot of entertainment trying to sink that last C2 on my way home with only one torpedo left. Took me some hours. :-)
I'd say, overall the goal to add more uncertainty is achieved.

Actually instead of NYGM the term HTGSHBOOTB (How The Game Should Have Been Out Of The Box) would be more fitting. :)

Great work! :up:

[malcymalc]

Hi,
I have used the Damage Mod for four patrols now (Jan-Jun 42) and am quite pleased with it. Although I use the Auto TDC (but not the vulnerability thingie) I have seen some noticeable changes.

The most important is more Duds. I have always played with the dud torpedo option but the rate seems to have seems to have increased to around 1 in 4 or 5 (I am not sure if this a co-incidence or a result of the mod). As this seems more realistic I am all in favour however...

Sinking times are definately improved (ie not so certain).

However I have also had two CTD - each time I was in the crew screen moving crewmen. I can't think of a reason why your Mod would affect this (I have not yet added the crew fatigue mod).

The only other change to my setup has been the upgrade to SHIIICmdr 2.4.

This is obviously not a complaint - just a report in case something has made a subtle alteration (these are the first two CTD I have had in about 40 patrols).

Regards
Malcolm

[mikaelanderlund]

Hi,

Can I use this mod togheter with Hollywood effects mod?

Mikael

[Redwine]

Hi Teddy ........... here i go. :know: :up:



# 1]

Terrain Folder :

I use a modified Locations.cfg file...... with Sergbuto extra light houses and another modification adding Black Sea Ports for som Black Sea area missions.

Can i add those lines to your Locations.cfg file ?



# 2]

Sea Folder :

I am using a mod from CCIP wich adds extra search high beam light to some naval and air units.

This mod changes the files .eqp.

Did you touched those files ?

Can i add those .eqp to your mod without ruining it ?



# 3]

Data Folder :

I am using a modified Zones.cfg from Nippelspanner aka CombatMedic.

It changes basically setting for U-Boats, not for surface units.

Did you changed U-Boats settings ?

Can i add this Nippelspanner's changes to your Zones.cfg ?



I cant found too much time to test your mod, but i play about 3 missions.

May be i am wrong but i note with your Zones.cfg i have a diferent behaviour.

In example un U-505 mission i was near to be killed by loss of hull integrity but never experience flooding, may be a rare case ?

One time i reach near to 30% hull integrity with any kind of flooding :hmm:

In another play of this mission, a single pass with one or two depth charges exploding near damaged 5 compartements, and produce an uncontrolable flooding on 3 of them killing me in few seconds.

Normally i have a more slow rate flooding, and a long way to be killed.

I asume you touched the U-boat setting in Zones.cfg ...... is true ?
I am wrong ?

I asume i can restore my u-boat settings only into your Zones.cfg....... letting your changes for surface units only.

Did it ruins your mod in any form i can not preview now ?
Any idea ?


Edit :

I finish to test it on happy times Mission.

Well....... i hate this mod....... because.......

It will make me to expend much more time enjoying SH3 !! :rotfl:

Sinking ships are more diferent now, not always the same way !

In example :

Normally with my setting a Troop Transporter needs almost 2 or some times 3 torps to be destroyed.

It is the first time i can sink one of this ships with only one torp.

Normall a T3 tanque take 1 or 2 toprs for be destroyed, with one torp if they explodes inmediatelly, if not they needs a second top.
But this time i stops one with a single torp, but no big explosion, he simply stops and take a half hour to sink, with no explosion of any kind.
Very good for my FPS !

Finally i take hads on a T2, .... aha !! i think a single torp will finish him.... but not.

18: 05 Hs - I hit him, and he start up to flame and reduce his speed down to 1 knot.
I wait...and wait, and wait.

Finally i starup a prosecution all the night, and nothing, he stay flaming.

Finally at later day after 24 hours i decide to finish it.

I take him with my deck gun 105mm, i spend all my Armor Piercing ammo, and the half of my High Explosive ammo,

Finally at 18 : 36 hi sinks....

24 1/2 hours flaming with no sink.


Here a comment :

Mod is so good.....

I think so deck gun shells are poor powered.



Many Thanks for job and effort.....

My Best regards, Red.

[HEMISENT]

Teddy
Running surfaced off Norfolk in a VIIC. Dark, heavy seas & rain visibility down to nothing. we were surprised by a Clemson from out of nowhere bearing 140.
The boat took minor small arms fire as I ordered CD then PD as we were in shallow water. The Clemson hit our boat just behind the conning tower and we sustained minor damage to the structure itself and the flak gun. Some minor flooding but nothing great. the clemson immediately took off into the night with the bow down. I followed it with the free cam and the ship went down 18 minutes later. Usually the DD's sustain collision damage and sink very soon so this is an improvement but still this seems a bit weak to me especially given the relatively minor damage my boat took.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Redwine,
You honour us with the use of our humble mod/s :rotfl:

#1 Yes you can. I had included the RUB locations.cfg due to the improved locations etc Some have complained about this, which I have no issue with, so I will be removing it from the next version

#2 No I did not modify the cfg files.

#3 I did not change the u-boat or the aircraft settings. Yes you can add his settings to mine.

As the u-boat settings are those of SHIII 1.4b this may be what you are seeing.

Important note on the deck gun use... the WATER LINE matters. If you hit above the water line the compartment will not flood. A shell at 1+ metres will most likley cause flooding anything higher is almost certain not to.

Important Note #2: As the Water Line matters, if you torpedo a ship and it is down by one end, and you torpedo the other end causing the 1st end to lift above the water, the first shot will not continue to flood.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Teddy
Running surfaced off Norfolk in a VIIC. Dark, heavy seas & rain visibility down to nothing. we were surprised by a Clemson from out of nowhere bearing 140.
The boat took minor small arms fire as I ordered CD then PD as we were in shallow water. The Clemson hit our boat just behind the conning tower and we sustained minor damage to the structure itself and the flak gun. Some minor flooding but nothing great. the clemson immediately took off into the night with the bow down. I followed it with the free cam and the ship went down 18 minutes later. Usually the DD's sustain collision damage and sink very soon so this is an improvement but still this seems a bit weak to me especially given the relatively minor damage my boat took.
Can you run a few tests for me?

[Church SUBSIM]

The merchant skin pack still works with this mod, right?

Church

[Redwine]

Redwine,
You honour us with the use of our humble mod/s :rotfl:

Not .... is a honour to have lot of nice people like you and the other modders working hard for the subcommunity.
The mod is nice, not humble ! :up:

I am hypnotized by the varability or random behaviour. I can stay here all night writing the new behaviours i found.



#1 Yes you can. I had included the RUB locations.cfg due to the improved locations etc

I done that, i added the Sergbuto extra light houses, and the Black Sea Ports, and all works fine.



Some have complained about this, which I have no issue with, so I will be removing it from the next version

Sorry my bad english, why you will remove them.....?



#2 No I did not modify the cfg files.

Not the .cfg files, i talk about the .eqp files.Those you used are originals or some ones modified by another mod ?



#3 I did not change the u-boat or the aircraft settings. Yes you can add his settings to mine.

As the u-boat settings are those of SHIII 1.4b this may be what you are seeing.

Understand, your Zone.cfg U-Boat settings in it are just the V1.4b originals.

I note a big change due to that, i dont have those settings from time ago, i am using a files wich made a similar you done with the surface units but in the sub.

I will add the sub settings i had and check for problems.



Important note on the deck gun use... the WATER LINE matters. If you hit above the water line the compartment will not flood. A shell at 1+ metres will most likley cause flooding anything higher is almost certain not to.

Yes i know, but no way, it take a lot of hit to sink a ship.
I test using my Shells.dat from my Gun FX Mod wich power-ups the shells power, and even in this way, i spend for a C2, 20 Armor piercing and 60 High Explosive shells.
It is about to 600 kg of explosives, about 3 torpedoes.

All in the waterline and along all one side of the ship, you can see the impact textures half under the waterline and half over it, allthe ship waterline was black for the impacts.

Those cargo ships was not armored tanks, their hull was a thinny iron plate, i think so in real life only a single hole in each compartement was enough to produce a flood not controlable by the crew, it is disregarding the people die, and the flamable and explosives inside the ship.

I think so a set of few hits on each compartement must to sink the ship with nothing to do for the ship crew, a set of holes in that thinny iron plate wich was the hull must not be reparable.

Just an opinion ..........


Important Note #2: As the Water Line matters, if you torpedo a ship and it is down by one end, and you torpedo the other end causing the 1st end to lift above the water, the first shot will not continue to flood.

That sounds so good...... :up:



One more question :

I note i have no more info in the notepad and even in the mission log with the real name of ship class in example....

No more T2, T3, now are medium tanquer and heavy tanquer.

No more C2 and C3, we have medium cargo and heavy cargo.

Whixh file made that ? can i avoid that with not installing some file ?

I like in my mission report the correct ships i sunk.

:up: :up:

Best Regards, Red.

[Observer]

I note i have no more info in the notepad and even in the mission log with the real name of ship class in example....

No more T2, T3, now are medium tanquer and heavy tanquer.

No more C2 and C3, we have medium cargo and heavy cargo.

Whixh file made that ? can i avoid that with not installing some file ?

I like in my mission report the correct ships i sunk.

Those names are actually more representative of the ship names, at least as referred to by the KM, than the original version, however if you wish to change the names back to the original, the names are contained in the EnglishNames.cfg (GermanNames.cfg and FrenchNames.cfg as the case may be) in the \data\Sea directory. Replace with another version of the file to restore the names.

[NiKuTa]

Hi. I thing that desabled "She is going down" will be wery good idea. :D. Now we newer will know when ship sunk.

????

[Observer]

You can remove the report, but then you get a report from the NA that is blank (and the cheer). The only way to really disable this is to not man the NA position.

[bill clarke]

Teddy, during game play I notice that the Illustrious CV whilst listing past 25 degrees still had sworfish sitting on the deck, and a tramp steamer with 1 sherman tank forward and aft, with a hole blown in the bow, and listing by the bow still had the tanks in place, ( I also believe that the tank forward should have hastened the sinking).
Is this something that you can alter ?

Cheers mate. :arrgh!:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Teddy, during game play I notice that the Illustrious CV whilst listing past 25 degrees still had sworfish sitting on the deck, and a tramp steamer with 1 sherman tank forward and aft, with a hole blown in the bow, and listing by the bow still had the tanks in place, ( I also believe that the tank forward should have hastened the sinking).
Is this something that you can alter ?

Cheers mate. :arrgh!:
These are not modable :cry:

[Der Teddy Bar]

The merchant skin pack still works with this mod, right?

Church
I presume so. I have only changed the zon and sim files to support the NYGM SD Mod.

[Redwine]

Those names are actually more representative of the ship names, at least as referred to by the KM, than the original version, however if you wish to change the names back to the original, the names are contained in the EnglishNames.cfg (GermanNames.cfg and FrenchNames.cfg as the case may be) in the \data\Sea directory. Replace with another version of the file to restore the names.

Thanks for info :up:

[Salvadoreno]

wow i just downloaded this mod and i really dig it. The only problem i had was when a Large Cargo took 4 damn torps and a couple deckgun rounds to sink. But other than that, seems like total realism!!!

I just hit a convoy, and torped a Troop Transport. 2 Torps. Directly in front of rudders, maybe 10 feet. The ships motors kept going, he started to sail starboard of convoy, convoy took evasive manuvers, the aft decks began to awash, and she sunk aft then bow. It was cool to watch. Total uncertainty if i had to put another torp in him

Then a small merchant, torped with TII torp directly amidships, a message came up 1 minute later "Ship Sinking". Took about 20 minutes to actually go under! Wow!!! Awesome!!

[Axlwolf]

I've just lived a "Das Boot" moment.
I've made some test with your mod.In one of those i've put a static T3 and a moving (9Knt) small coastal vessel.
Launched some fish to both the target,i failed miserably the SCV.
Two torpedo hit the T3,the hit take place at a good distance from each other.The ship started to burn with no sign of sinking.
Being the targets unarmed i surface and race at full speed to finish the damned SCV with my deck gun.
A bad Waypoint placement from my side resulted in the SCV stuck on the side of a small island.I started to shoot trying to aim some AP carefully under the waterline,taking my time.
After some minute an incredible loud explosion from the T3 make me jump on my chair.Immediately i pointed my binocs to the ship to see a big fireball rise up in the sky,from the stern area.
Checking the distance i obtain almost 2km.
The SCV is now in a very humid place and i'm sitting here to see the intention of the T3.After some other minute another explosion with fireball.The ship was a bit low in the stern now.
Some more minute passed and then...BOOM,loud explosion,the ship broke in half,smoke and fire everywere and start to sink.The two part took forever to go down.

This,sir,it's the best addition to SH3 i've ever see.Congratulations!

[Redwine]

Question :

How the game option "Realistic sinking times" On/Off affect the mod behaviour ?

[HEMISENT]

Teddy
I made up a single mission using these settings:
Jan 1944/12 noon/excellent visibility/calm seas/all tests with periscope raised for aiming point.

A Clemson DD heading 090 @ 15kts
My VIIC heading 360 @ pd heading directly into path of oncoming DD:

1. Impact to aft conning tower brg 270deg: flak and tower minor damage/heavy damage to stern comp
2. Impact to aft conning tower brg 90deg: No damage
3. Impact to aft conning tower brg 170deg: Glancing blow, minor tower damage
4. Impact to tower brg 180deg ran down full length of boat: aft flak and aft tower destroyed.
5. Impact to aft conning tower brg 180deg: U Boat destroyed.
6. 12:04 Impact to aft conning tower brg 180deg. DD rides up and over full length of boat. Med damage to flak and tower, noticed props on DD stop when tower directly under DD bridge. DD comes to dead stop with no visible damage
12:14 DD appears down at bow
12:21 Upper tips of prop blades are visible
12:30 Water level even with upper port holes in bow area
12:43 Water lapping over very tip of bow
16:09 Random wave action licking over stbd bow occasionally hitting fwd gun mount
19:23 No change
00:45 first time noticed bow dipping completely under to fwd gun mount by wave action
05:30 water now licking at leading edge bridge structure
11:50 list to stbd. Fwd bow section spends 50% of time under water
12:04 24 hours since collision-very frustrated send spread of 4 eels set for impact - DD blown to smithereens

My impression is the DD sinking in 18 minutes as reported earlier may have been a fluke compounded by heavy seas.
Also noticed that at no time was my periscope damaged in any way from all the direct or close impacts. Must be good german engineering or made out of Kryptonite
Using the advanced Hollywood damage mod maybe has something to do with it.

[Der Teddy Bar]

HEMISENT,
Thankyou for doing that test. Even better is the result :up:

[HEMISENT]

Yeah, I agree -good for the Clemson damage mod but how do I weaken my unbreakable periscope with the lifetime warranty.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Yeah, I agree -good for the Clemson damage mod but how do I weaken my unbreakable periscope with the lifetime warranty.
Kind of a tough one as any lowering of the persiscopes HP &/Or Armour so as to have the 'hit & run' driver damage it, might end up with a situation where any depth charges within 50 metres take it out everytime.

[HEMISENT]

Thats sort of what Gouldjg was talking about awhile back - just thinking perhaps you might have a different take on the situation.

[uhu]

Sorry to say, but this stage the mod looks great (that no ship sinks immedietly), but don't works enough good - at least as I see now.

Saw a big konvoi, targeted a Liberty (about 7000t), which had 7 knots.
-Hit it with 2 T2 torps about in the middle. It turned with his site to the wather, but don't sinked. It continued to go with 1 knot.
-Hit with a 3rd torp, near to the another two holes, but nothing happened - no more sinking, no stop.
-After that, I lost it for a while, but several hours after found it again
-She was going with 7 knots again, no hole textures on the site, no side-turning to the wather, but the hole ship was deeper in the water.
-I hit her with the 4th torp, but it don't sunk, even not sunk deeper in the wather, althrough it stopped.
At this point I gave up, because this looks in my oppinion not very real, that a middle-type ship don+t sink, with 4 torps in her stomach.

Teddy, what do you think?

[Der Teddy Bar]

Sorry to say, but this stage the mod looks great (that no ship sinks immedietly), but don't works enough good - at least as I see now.

Saw a big konvoi, targeted a Liberty (about 7000t), which had 7 knots.
-Hit it with 2 T2 torps about in the middle. It turned with his site to the wather, but don't sinked. It continued to go with 1 knot.
-Hit with a 3rd torp, near to the another two holes, but nothing happened - no more sinking, no stop.
-After that, I lost it for a while, but several hours after found it again
-She was going with 7 knots again, no hole textures on the site, no side-turning to the wather, but the hole ship was deeper in the water.
-I hit her with the 4th torp, but it don't sunk, even not sunk deeper in the wather, althrough it stopped.
At this point I gave up, because this looks in my oppinion not very real, that a middle-type ship don+t sink, with 4 torps in her stomach.

Teddy, what do you think?
uhu,
Thank you for your feedback.

Ships no longer just blow up, except when a Critical Hit is achieved. So you must flood the ship to sink it.

Every ship, including Battleships, can be sunk by flooding with 2 torpedoes . Let me say that another way, there is no ship that cannot be sunk with 2 torpedoes, sunk.


Two torpedoes on the same compartment is basically a waste, and it would appear that you used 3 in this case.

You must also give up the notion that every ship must sink before me and must always sink in ## amount of torpedoes, didn't happen in the war and it will not happen with this mod.


To make a conclusion that the NYGM SD MOD doesn't work based upon 1 instance of a ship not sinking is just a bit rich :D I can only assume that you do not have an understanding of historical sinking’s and have not read the read-me file or need to re-read it and this entire thread :up:


I hope that by reading the read-me supplied with this mod that you will be able to better understand the underlying mechanics of SHIII.

Edited for spelling mistakes :damn:

[The Avon Lady]

Playing with AUTO TDC and this mod installed. Yesterday, I have the following experience, copied from my WaW KTB:

26JUN43 0719 BE95

TUBES 5 AND 6 FIRED, BOTH IMPACTED. PRESENTLY AT DEPTH 230M, EGRESSING SOUTH. HYDROPHONES INDICATE TARGET'S ENGINES FUNCTIONING MINIMALLY. HIGH SPEED SCREWS PICKED UP AT 42°. NOT CLEAR WHETHER APPROACHING OR NOT.


26JUN43 0730 BE95

PIVOTING NORTH, BACK TO TARGET. WILL SHADOW.


26JUN43 0740 BE95

TARGET'S ENGINES NO LONGER BEING PICKED UP. SHE'S SITTING DEAD IN THE WATER, BEARING 354°, CLOSE RANGE.


26JUN43 0845 BE95

ALL STOP. TARGET DEAD AHEAD, CLOSE RANGE. OTHER SHIP GETTING DISTANT, BEARING 220-235°, MEDIUM RANGE. WILL WAIT TO BE CERTAIN.


26JUN43 0905 BE95

OTHER CONTACTS MOVED AWAY, DISTANT. AT SCOPE DEPTH. TARGET MOTIONLESS, LISTING 40 ON ITS STB SIDE. WILL SURFACE DIRECTLY AHEAD OF TARGET'S BOW, OUT OF LINESIGHT OF TARGET'S DECK GUNS.


26JUN43 0940 BE95

BDU,

MEDIUM SIZED BRITISH MERCHANT SUNK, ESTIMATED 4500 TONS. TOOK 2.5 HOURS, 2 TORPEDOES AND 42 HE SHELLS TO SEND HER DOWN. ALSO, PREVIOUSLY SPOTTED IN THE VICINITY WERE A DESTROYER, AN ARMED TRAWLER AND A STEAMER, COURSE NNE. RESUMING COURSE TO ASSIGNED PATROL AREA.

OBLT. Z. S. MALA ZIMETBAUM, U848



Any connection to the mod or will we never know? :hmm:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Avon,
A great feeling of being there! Well done.

I am howver a bit vague on the attack and the question?

OK, here comes the Spanish Inquisition
1. I assume that you targeted and saw 2 impacts on a C2 or C3? Or were the impacts assumed?
2. Do you know the location/s of the impacts?
3. Where did your shells hit and did they hit at/below the water line?

Is your question "was this extended sinking attributed to the Mod?" As you have the NYGM Ship Damage Mod installed, yes.

You will now see ships explode when hit in the cargo spaces or even the bow away from traditional Critical Locations as well as one ship sinking and one not after you have hit them both in exactly the same location.

The randomness is such that as I have mention recently, after 2 hours of following a damaged coastal merchant I went to deliver a Coup De Grace, I was just setting up the TDC and raising the scope when she finally sank liturally 15 seconds before I was to fire my last torpedo.

Thank you for your feedback, it is most appreciated.

[The Avon Lady]

Avon,
A great feeling of being there! Well done.
This game is simply amazing at times. :up:
I am howver a bit vague on the attack and the question?

OK, here comes the Spanish Inquisition
Goody - the comfy chair! :yep:
1. I assume that you targeted and saw 2 impacts on a C2 or C3? Or were the impacts assumed?
FYI the ship type ingame is a "Medium Cargo", not a C2 or C3. Both impacts were heard and 2 "Torpedo Impact" messages were logged.
2. Do you know the location/s of the impacts?
No. I had just about completed my crash dive when they impacted. FYI, I had a lousy AOB when I fired. I think something like 137 but not sure.
3. Where did your shells hit and did they hit at/below the water line?
For the first 16-18 shells, I fired them myself, attempting to hit below the waterline on the bow's STB side. After that, I let the AI do it, with orders to aim for the waterline. The AI were more successful with hitting below the waterline than I was. You would see a splash in the water close to the ship and then hear the explosion. Of course, some shots hit the ship above the waterline. I didn't make a count of how many above versus below. Also, about a dozen to 15 shots missed the boat altogether.
Is your question "was this extended sinking attributed to the Mod?" As you have the NYGM Ship Damage Mod installed, yes.
Of course!
You will now see ships explode when hit in the cargo spaces or even the bow away from traditional Critical Locations as well as one ship sinking and one not after you have hit them both in exactly the same location.
FYI, this ship went down without a bang. Seemed like pure flooding.
The randomness is such that as I have mention recently, after 2 hours of following a damaged coastal merchant I went to deliver a Coup De Grace, I was just setting up the TDC and raising the scope when she finally sank liturally 15 seconds before I was to fire my last torpedo.
I had something similar in my previous WaW career with this mod installed.

I don't recall if I hit a C2 or C3 and whether with 1 or 2 torps but was blazing heavily, yet still moving along with the convoy.Several, maybe 8/10, minutes later I decided to return toward the flaming ship and put an end to her misery. As I was approaching, she blew up and sank.

[HEMISENT]

I just started my 3rd campaign patrol using this mod. I've definately noticed a huge increase in gameplay/immersion. Altho my tonnage has decreased due to ships taking damage and continuing on or just plain slow sinking times which may force me to leave the area never knowing if I was successful or not.
I hit one of the larger cargo ships which I thought for sure was a goner only to find it straggling along 8-9 hours later-it took another hit + a ton of HE to finally put it down
A Clemson which was rammed took 18 minutes in very stormy weather to sink
Another Clemson ramming resulted in the DD sloooooowly taking on water for 24 hours and it still wasn't finished.

There are no longer huge explosions everytime a torpedo impacts, they still happen but no longer does every hit guarantee a fireworks display and an immediate sinking in 30 seconds.

My biggest problem which has nothing to do with this mod is that I'm also using random drafts + increased wave settings and it is a lot more difficult to set the correct depths for magnetic detonation especially in very rough weather which is what I used to be very accomplished at. I am now forced to make most shots using impact detonation. This gives me a higher success ratio but lower damage inflicted per impact.
My standard tonnage per patrol seems to be in the area of 10 to 15 tons which I believe was not out of the question for a VIIC in early - mid 42.

At the end of the day my opinion is this mod works better than advertised.
The guys who use it need to adjust their expectations. This has taken much of the "shoot em up" arcadeness out of the game. It's a whole new game now folks.

[HEMISENT]

A bit more feedback as requested
Aug 10 1942
04:49
Medium seas/excellent visibility
On the way to my patrol grid I ran across a very slow C3 cargo hdg NE towards the Irish Sea.
Set up a perfect intercept 90deg to targets course.
04:26 impact detonation below bridge structure-ship immediately reduces speed to zero. no visible damage/fire or explosions. smoke from funnel ceases-engines shut down
04:29 impact detonation directly below leading cargo boom.
04:29 rcvd :She's going down"msg. log shows vessel as sunk-again no outward sign of damage. ship just sitting dead in the water
04:35 bow starts settling slowly
04:40 forward deck just touching water-settling very rapid now
04:44 water reaching fwd bridge structure
04:46 stern rising, top funnel above water
05:47 stern perfectly vertical bobbing on the waves-massive underwater explosions
05:48 vessel gone from sight

22 minutes from impact to sinking.
Any idea why I received the ship sinking msg long before the vessel actually showed signs of sinking?
Not a complaint just curious-I was ready to give her a 3rd shot since there was no indication of damage initially. Did the AI know that major flooding was occuring and sinking was inevitable?

[Der Teddy Bar]

A bit more feedback as requested
Aug 10 1942
04:49
Medium seas/excellent visibility
On the way to my patrol grid I ran across a very slow C3 cargo hdg NE towards the Irish Sea.
Set up a perfect intercept 90deg to targets course.
04:26 impact detonation below bridge structure-ship immediately reduces speed to zero. no visible damage/fire or explosions. smoke from funnel ceases-engines shut down
04:29 impact detonation directly below leading cargo boom.
04:29 rcvd :She's going down"msg. log shows vessel as sunk-again no outward sign of damage. ship just sitting dead in the water
04:35 bow starts settling slowly
04:40 forward deck just touching water-settling very rapid now
04:44 water reaching fwd bridge structure
04:46 stern rising, top funnel above water
05:47 stern perfectly vertical bobbing on the waves-massive underwater explosions
05:48 vessel gone from sight

22 minutes from impact to sinking.
Any idea why I received the ship sinking msg long before the vessel actually showed signs of sinking?
Not a complaint just curious-I was ready to give her a 3rd shot since there was no indication of damage initially. Did the AI know that major flooding was occuring and sinking was inevitable?
Thankyou for the feedback, it is invaluable.

I have no idea why this is occuring and had seen it from time to time.

Or should I say, I might know why it is occuring and hopefully changes I have made will correct this in the next release of the NYGM Ship Damage Mod.

[booger2005]

Lets say I wanted to up the HP to 2600 or whatever on 3rd party ships that weren't included. I know from the readme that its in their individual .zon file. But how would I change it? Does it require me to write a tweak file? :hmm:

[booger2005]

Lets be specific. I want the NLOL (Ceramic) to have more hit points.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Lets say I wanted to up the HP to 2600 or whatever on 3rd party ships that weren't included. I know from the readme that its in their individual .zon file. But how would I change it? Does it require me to write a tweak file? :hmm:
Using TimeTravellers SH3 Mini Tweaker open the ZON and adjust the Hit Points to the new value. I use 2160.

How to actually do it, copy an existing ZON file for another ship and the change the line below to follow the example below.

Path=data\Sea\NLL_\NLL_.sim

to

Path=data\Sea\NCOT\NCOT.zon

BTW, the NCOT is AG124's Coastal Tanker which I am doing the Zones.cfg settings for as we speak, great work AG!

Please feel free to e-mail for further assistance if required.

[booger2005]

I'll try. Thank you.

[Redwine]

@ Teddy Bar

Hi Teddy !

Please, there is any way to manage the damage produced by the antisub nets ?

I was not using them before your mod, i had them installed now by your mod.

Last day i colide with one, two times, and my sub sinks by loss of hull integrity.

Is not souposed the nets are to stop the sub ? I think so they may produce damage in the hydrodinamic hull cover but not in the pressure hul.

I am wrong ?

Thanks in advance. :up:

[booger2005]

Hey, Teddy.

It seems to me that the small tanker is a bit too tough.

The other day, I hit one with 2 under the funnel, 2 in the center section (but apart from each other) and 1 in the bow and it didn't sink. (They were all impact hits, set at 2 or 3 m) It smoked and listed a bit but never went under. Weather was calm, WO assist only. I understand that the compartment have to flood individually, etc. but the damage was spread out pretty good, no two dark areas overlapped much. 5 torps for a 3000 tonner? And it still didn't sink. Is this where ship individuality comes in? Anyway, could you please look at this.

Also, this is repeatable. The small tanker is always tough.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Hey, Teddy.

It seems to me that the small tanker is a bit too tough.

The other day, I hit one with 2 under the funnel, 2 in the center section (but apart from each other) and 1 in the bow and it didn't sink. (They were all impact hits, set at 2 or 3 m) It smoked and listed a bit but never went under. Weather was calm, WO assist only. I understand that the compartment have to flood individually, etc. but the damage was spread out pretty good, no two dark areas overlapped much. 5 torps for a 3000 tonner? And it still didn't sink. Is this where ship individuality comes in? Anyway, could you please look at this.

Also, this is repeatable. The small tanker is always tough.
By the sounds of this the small tanker may be a 'little' bit tough :rotfl:

I have made a small change which I hope shall go some way to address this. Small steps though... Also, this ship as far as I can tell may not have a bow/stern compartment, or to put it another way, I have not found it.

[booger2005]

Thank you.

Also, on an interesting note, tonight after hitting one about 6 times I got the (in this case) "Neutral Unit Destroyed" Message. 48 hours later, it was still floating and had no signs of going down, and didn't look any different than after the 2nd torp hit. It took 3 more torps to bring it down.

Prehaps this unit should, in the absence of a better solution (this is going to sound horrible :o ) be the only one to have, say 300 hit points. Yeah, it would go BOOM either after 2 or three torps every time, but that would still be better than a darn near unsinkable ship.

[Der Teddy Bar]

@ Teddy Bar

Hi Teddy !

Please, there is any way to manage the damage produced by the antisub nets ?

I was not using them before your mod, i had them installed now by your mod.

Last day i colide with one, two times, and my sub sinks by loss of hull integrity.

Is not souposed the nets are to stop the sub ? I think so they may produce damage in the hydrodinamic hull cover but not in the pressure hul.

I am wrong ?

Thanks in advance. :up:
Will see if I can find something, I don't think there is much I can do as I think it depends on the u-boats setting and it is required to be at a certain value to ensure that a colision 'might' do some damage.

[malcymalc]

Surely tankers should be hard to sink?

For the following reasons:

1) Contrary to popular belief crude oil is not very inflammable (it is the gases associated with it that are flammable, and the principal reason that great efforts are taken to vent these gases from the internal compartments of the tanker) so a BOOM is not inevitable - the exception would be if a tanker is carrying avgas (while having a drunken conversation with a shipbroker earlier this year I was surprised when he explained to me that different crude oils were suitable for producing different endproducts and so avgas is something that tends to be shipped around the world rather than produced locally - at least in modern times).

2) Tankers are constructed with baffles within the compartments holding the oil to stop it slopping around while at sea (with the concomitant result that flooding takes more time to take effect).

3) As Teddy has inferred oil has a greater bouyancy than water (plus on convoys outbound from the UK the tanker will be in ballast - therefore any undamaged hold compartments will effectively be bloody great bouyancy tanks).

4) Tankers were probably the most modern component of the merchant fleet in 1939 - most of these ships reflect the design thinking of the 20's and 30's. Normal tramp steamers could date back as far as the 1890's. Now obviously newer does not always equal better but I think one could argue that, overall, the tankers were in better shape than the majority of the merchant fleet (which, we should not forget was on the whole pretty knackered in the late 30's).

I have not done any statistical analysis but in the course of my reading recall various mentions of tough tankers (the Imperial Transport springs to mind - in ballast, but with residual gasses in her holds, struck by one torpedo which broke her in two, foreward section sank aft section remained afloat, reboarded 17 hours after impact, sailed 2.5 knots towards Scotland, taken in tow, beached - later a new forepeak built on Clydeside married together with the aft - she survived a second torpedo attack later in the war).

Anyway I am quite happy with tankers being hard targets as I think that is the historical reality.

Regards
Malcolm

[Myxale]

:up: First off: Great Mod, Teddy!
I was looking for something this for quite some time!

Ok here's my report so far.

A custom Training mission:
A small convoy three ships:

C 2;
Small Costal;
Small Tanker;

Time: Late afternoon calm sea and almost no wind. Sun was setting.

My Boot was my beloved VII B

Ok here it goes.

Convoy is heading west, around 5 knots. AOB was perfect. And altogether a perfect condition for an attack.

17:12-
I go for the C2 First two torpedoes set on impact. Fired one by one!

The first one was aimed at the aft Bow, was a success Crew cheers!
Fire on the forward deck..
The second one was a soddin’ dud!
Talk about a bad hair day!
Any way, I aim at the Tanker

17:14-
Tanker takes on well aimed torpedo (impact), right under the bridge.
Crew cheers again!

I let the costal go.

17:25-
The C2 shows first sings of a hit. Stern rises slowly. Forward decks are awash.
Slowed down to 3 knots.

17.20- Tanker; a small fire as a sing of a hit, but keeps full steam ahead.

17:25- Annoyed with the tanker I fire 4 shells: 3 around the “wounded” area, and one on the deck.
Suddenly a loud explosion and a balls of fire rise from the Tanker.
Oil leaks start to build up in its wake!

17:30- Finally the Tanker shows tendency to lean to starboard.

17:33- Slows down to 4 Knots and the Oil catches fire!

C 2 Stern keeps rising ever so slowly.
I can feel it’s about to pull a Titanic on me…minus that Kate and Leo drama!
I get myself an ice-tea. Sit on the bridge with my 1 WO and watch the show.

17:40- The Tanker has a trail of fire I its wake and almost the whole half is sunk. Still steady with 4 knots ahead.
Tanker stern keeps rising
Cargo is at 2 knots, screw barley contact with water.

18:02-
Its getting’ dark and I‘m annoyed, and runnin’ out of Ice tea!
The Tanker stopped burning, but keeps still at a pace of 4 Knots with his starboard half sunken in.

18:12- Cargo:
I aim a torpedo (Impact) stern or at least the part that still in the water.
A full success, torpedo hits and rips the ruder and screw of.

I time compress hard to 5:30 in the morning. Tanker’s nowhere to be seen and the Cargo is now evenly deep sunken with the waterline at the deck.

An amazing experience, most authentic.

Same setting next try!

The cargo is first. I hit him (magnetic) under keel right under the bridge and it breaks apart! The halves sink within 6 minutes.

Tanker gets the same, doesn’t brake but starts to lean again heavy to starboard but within 10 minutes this time.

I sail around it and place an aft. Torpedo on the other side this time round.
Torpedo is set on impact. Again I hit, my 1WO tells me the unit is destroyed.
It takes another 10 minutes to see it sink on the side.

Well that’s so far; I’m gonna test this mod with other setups. But from what I can tell this mod is the best so far. Thanx for you work Teddy.

This is awesome! Can’t stress enough how authentic this seems to work.

Now I only need to find a decent crew mod and sub damage mod. And the game would be a true sim!

Keep going mate!

Kaleun Myx

PS
If you need verification; I can send you the pics of the first sinking.



:know: :up: :rock: :

[Myxale]

Same setup as above:
Only this time i shelled a small merch.
after 60 shells in various places it stopped dead lit like a torch.
Then it sunk a bit, I think it would've sunk all the way, given the time... but i couldn't keep myself from firing an torpedo. After one hit under the bridge, it went down evenly.

[booger2005]

Surely tankers should be hard to sink?

For the following reasons:

1) Contrary to popular belief crude oil is not very inflammable (it is the gases associated with it that are flammable, and the principal reason that great efforts are taken to vent these gases from the internal compartments of the tanker) so a BOOM is not inevitable - the exception would be if a tanker is carrying avgas (while having a drunken conversation with a shipbroker earlier this year I was surprised when he explained to me that different crude oils were suitable for producing different endproducts and so avgas is something that tends to be shipped around the world rather than produced locally - at least in modern times).

2) Tankers are constructed with baffles within the compartments holding the oil to stop it slopping around while at sea (with the concomitant result that flooding takes more time to take effect).

3) As Teddy has inferred oil has a greater bouyancy than water (plus on convoys outbound from the UK the tanker will be in ballast - therefore any undamaged hold compartments will effectively be bloody great bouyancy tanks).

4) Tankers were probably the most modern component of the merchant fleet in 1939 - most of these ships reflect the design thinking of the 20's and 30's. Normal tramp steamers could date back as far as the 1890's. Now obviously newer does not always equal better but I think one could argue that, overall, the tankers were in better shape than the majority of the merchant fleet (which, we should not forget was on the whole pretty knackered in the late 30's).

I have not done any statistical analysis but in the course of my reading recall various mentions of tough tankers (the Imperial Transport springs to mind - in ballast, but with residual gasses in her holds, struck by one torpedo which broke her in two, foreward section sank aft section remained afloat, reboarded 17 hours after impact, sailed 2.5 knots towards Scotland, taken in tow, beached - later a new forepeak built on Clydeside married together with the aft - she survived a second torpedo attack later in the war).

Anyway I am quite happy with tankers being hard targets as I think that is the historical reality.

Regards
Malcolm

That's all fine, I'm not talking about BOOM, but its only the small tanker that's the problem. The T3 can go down with two. 8 torpedoes are going to obliterate any 3K ship, no matter how boyant the tanks are.

And there were plenty of tankers carrying fuel and even crude oil that at least burst into flames when hit.

[Salvadoreno]

hey Teddy, this has happened twice in 1 patrol. Never occured before with your mod, but it did now. 2 Torps amidships and a lot of deckfire finally brought this Large tanker down.

Well half of it at least..

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/6116/shipnosink1is.th.jpg (http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shipnosink1is.jpg)

[malcymalc]

Teddy,
A little more info for you.

With TDC

24/11/42 - wind 15m/s, light fog.

1.59 Fired at Passenger Liner - two torpedos set at 6m, approx 30s gap between firing, slow speed setting. First self detonated shortly after firing.

2.00 Prepared third torpedo for firing, view obscured by T3 tanker at 1470m and then by C2 at 84m (I had to stop engines and wait for this chap to go by) - utilised the time by firing rear tube at C2.

2.02 Second torpedo impacts on the Liner dead amidships, fires seen on superstructure on the opposite (starboard) side. Appears to list a few degrees to port and slow down a couple of knots, slews slightly to port.

2.04 Passenger liner comes back into sight, range approx 1800m. Fire third torpedo set at 6.5m. I begin my exit strategy.

2.06 Liner hit on port side at the stern just about where the superstructure ends, fires and explosions seen.

2.07 "She's going down", crew cheer.

2.08 Liner down by the stern, rear decks awash, sinking rapidly.

2.09 Bow in the air slipping beneath the waves.

My first liner - I was surprised at only needing two torpedos.

All in all this was a good patrol - as I also managed to acquire and attack a Bogue (another first for me) not once, but twice after my first attack was foiled by four duds (the air was blue). I do not have the sinking times for the second (I was busy with the escorts at the time) but she must have been refueling her aircraft at the time as there were large explosions all along the ship after the first impact. The crew called her at this time. She went down very quickly.

I did have one oddity with the second attack on the Bogue. I fired three torpedos at it, and one at an escort at about 1300m whom I had a good solution on. This final torpedo missed and, as I dived deep and turned away, just ran on.

Several minutes later I heard the torpedo exploding and a message saying it had missed. Then I get a crew cheer and an event camera of a destroyer going down - when I got back to port and checked my patrol log, no mention of my destroyer.

This is a great mod. To the point where I am wondering whther to start a new career with it.

Regards
Malcolm

[malcymalc]

Booger,
Personally I have always found the C2 to be a relatively hard target (I seldom take one of these with just one shot) and tend to ignore T2s as there are usually T3s in the same convoy. But where I have taken one as a target of opportunity they tend to either go with one shot or not at all (I am normally busy avoiding escorts).

However I agree that five torpedos is very tough however the T2 was a modern design with a lot of compartmentalisation:

"The T2-SE-A1 had 9 sets of tanks. Tanks 2 through 9 had a main center tank carrying 391,500 gallons, and two side tanks (one port, one starboard) carrying about 165,000 gallons each. Tank number one consisted of only two side by side tanks, divided by a common bulkhead, as this tank set was only 13 feet 6 inches long. Tank sets 2 through 9 were 36 feet 6 inches long. Total cargo was about 5,930,000 gallons, about 141,200 barrels. There was also a small dry cargo space of about 15,200 cubic feet located forward of Tank Number 1 above the deep tank for a very small amount of dry cargo."

And that is before you add in crew compartments etc. Compare this to a C2 which had five cargo holds (some of which were above the waterline) plus other compartments and you can see why tankers could be very difficult to sink if they did not go BOOM (and sometimes even then).

And historically T2s sound tough (from Uboot.net):

"The Kittanning (Master Raymond J.S. Chambers) had left port at 13.30 hours, but soon thereafter the third assistant engineer fell and seriously injured himself and the master decided to return to Cristobal. At 16.31 hours, just after the ship changed course back at 14.5 knots, a torpedo struck on the starboard side at the #6 tank. At 16.46 hours, a second torpedo hit the #7 tank on the same side abaft the midships house and the ship swung hard right. The explosions opened a hole 65 feet long and 20 feet high and flooded five tanks, causing a 35° list to starboard. At 17.00 hours, the ten officers, 39 crewmen and 25 armed guards (the ship was armed with one 5in, one 3in and eight 20mm guns) abandoned ship in four lifeboats, but two boats swamped in the choppy seas and squally weather. A coup de grâce, fired at 17.06 hours, struck on the port side at the #4 tank under the midship house, causing the tanker to right herself and float on an even keel. The U-boat had reported another torpedo fired at 18.49 hours, but it seems that it had missed.
The US Coast Guard cutters USS Marion (WPC 145) and USS Crawford (WPC 134) arrived, the former picked up the survivors and took them to Cristobal. The master and five men reboarded the Kittanning and the USS Crawford (WPC 134) began towing the tanker, but when the tow line parted, the operations halted for the night. The next morning, the American tug USS Woodcock (ATO 145) arrived and took the tanker in tow. However the tug suffered engine trouble and had to drop the tow. Later the Panama canal tug Tavernilla took the ship in tow, later helped by the Panama canal tug Cardenas. With the help of the American tug Jupiter Inlet the tanker moored at Cristobal on 6 July."

Or:

"At 20.02 hours local time on 2 Nov, 1944, the unescorted Fort Lee (Master Ottar Marius Andersen) was hit by one torpedo from U-181, while she proceeded on a nonevasive course at 15.5 knots. The torpedo warning device of the tanker did not sound until after the torpedo hit. The torpedo struck on the port side in the fireroom about 12 feet below the waterline. The explosion likely caused the port boiler to explode, stopping the engines. A distress signal could not be sent because the radio antenna was broken. As the ship settled by the stern, the boiler room and the engine room were flooded and the crew´s mess filled with smoke and steam....At this time a second torpedo struck on the starboard side between the engine room and #9 tank. The explosion sent a ball of flame 200 feet in the air and shattered two of the lifeboats, throwing the men into the water. The tanker caught fire, but a wave washed over the well deck and put the fire out.....The tanker sank stern first at about 21.10 hours."

Now obviously one can also quote descriptions where tankers went down like a stone but my point is that I think tankers tended to go pretty quickly or struggle on for quite some time.

Interesting discussion.

Regards
Malcolm

[booger2005]

@ malcymalc

I agree totally that a T2 tanker should be a tough target. And with NYGM the accounts you described are almost exactly what I observe. It takes about 3-4 torps to sink one, with a lot of uncertainty, or less if you hit the engine room; more if your shots are too close together. :cool:

But I was never talking about the T2. I'm talking about the "small tanker" as it has been called since the origional game (out of box). Its the little one that you don't see too much of. Its smaller than the C2 even, something like 3-4000 tons. I've consistently noticed that it can absorb 6 to 8 hits without showing any signs of going under, and these are all spread out: under the funnel, the bow, and several spread out in between. So if 2 or 3 torps is enough to sink or seriously disable a huge T2, wouldn't 6-8 be enough to bring down this little guy? :doh:

[Myxale]

Booger,
i tested some setups with that small tanker.
In one i shelled the "Small Guy" with 60 + shell and he was lit like a torch.
And from my vantage point it looked like he sunk in a bit.
Can't tell for sure, but after i put one torpedo into him, he went down silently!
But i'm not sure it should be able to soak up to 4 torps.
This mod so rules!
I will keep testing.

[Wolf52]

Why are airbase files changed with this mod?

[Wolf52]

Also, have you done any work with the Large Cargo ship? Because i hit one with two torps (my first hit wth your mod) and its listing about 45 degrees to starboard with waves almost breaking the second story windows on the bridge and shes still up.

EDIT: Ok, so the large cargo went down about 10 minutes later, but i just had an even weirder experience with a medium cargo. I fired two impact torps at 3 m depth (in 15 mps wind), one aimed about halfway between the bridge and the bow, and the other directly under the bridge. The first torp hit, and not 5 seconds later i get the "enemy unit destroyed" message, and the ship catches on fire from bow to stern before the second torp even hit! I thought it was impossible to get a critical hit on cargo spaces.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Great feedback and discussion. It is what is needed. Trying to catch up on the details of the thread and will replay then.

Just trying to get the NYGM Tonnage War Mod out, many exciting additions over RUB 1.45!

[Der Teddy Bar]

Why are airbase files changed with this mod?
The ONE airbase addition LAB_VSmallAirBaseGB was included.

It is a RUB addition that makes NO difference to non RUB people and none to RUB people. It was a left over from the NYGM Campaign Mod when I was building it.

Again, do not panic :rotfl:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Also, have you done any work with the Large Cargo ship? Because i hit one with two torps (my first hit wth your mod) and its listing about 45 degrees to starboard with waves almost breaking the second story windows on the bridge and shes still up.

EDIT: Ok, so the large cargo went down about 10 minutes later, but i just had an even weirder experience with a medium cargo. I fired two impact torps at 3 m depth (in 15 mps wind), one aimed about halfway between the bridge and the bow, and the other directly under the bridge. The first torp hit, and not 5 seconds later i get the "enemy unit destroyed" message, and the ship catches on fire from bow to stern before the second torp even hit! I thought it was impossible to get a critical hit on cargo spaces.
Please read the READ ME file supplied with the NYGM Ship Damage Mod. I would also suggest that you will also gain some great additional information.

The READ ME file supplied with the NYGM Ship Damage Mod cover this ;) But I will answer this question anyway.

The NYGM Ship Damage Mod has added the Critical Chance to previously non Critical Chance compartments. These include the cargo space & bow/stern region for cargo ships. For all warships we have also added it to the compartments between the Traditional Critical hit areas.

[Der Teddy Bar]

I would like to suggest that it may be of advanatge to now go back and read the READ ME files again.

It explains how the compartments, torpedo damage etc works.

What happens in real life is that a compartment can generally only cause so much sinking. So even in real life, targeting that area again is often a waste as a torpedo might make big holes but can only inflict a reasonably small amount of damage.

Often ships were sunk by the additional damage to the bulkhead which was a result of the shock force of the explosion. The resultant collapse of the bulhead damaged other compartments causing flooding above that of the original flooding. Sadly, SHIII lacks damagable bulk heads, i.e. the structures that keep the ship in shape that sit inbetween the cargo spaces.

But, what you should be doing is aiming for these 'bulk heads' (under the mast) as it is then likely that you will damage 2 compartments with 1 torpedo. So when I attack a C2 I aim 1 torpedo at the 3rd mast and the second torpedo at the engine room. The trick is to damage more than 1 compartment with 1 torpedo.

Doenitz calculated that in 1942 from January to June,
40% of ships sunk with 1 torpedo
38% of ships sunk required two or more torpedoes
22% of ships hit with 1 to 4 torpedoes escaped

[uhu]

I had also such adventures with a Small Tanker. It swallowed 6 torps, and still not sunk.


@ malcymalc

I agree totally that a T2 tanker should be a tough target. And with NYGM the accounts you described are almost exactly what I observe. It takes about 3-4 torps to sink one, with a lot of uncertainty, or less if you hit the engine room; more if your shots are too close together. :cool:

But I was never talking about the T2. I'm talking about the "small tanker" as it has been called since the origional game (out of box). Its the little one that you don't see too much of. Its smaller than the C2 even, something like 3-4000 tons. I've consistently noticed that it can absorb 6 to 8 hits without showing any signs of going under, and these are all spread out: under the funnel, the bow, and several spread out in between. So if 2 or 3 torps is enough to sink or seriously disable a huge T2, wouldn't 6-8 be enough to bring down this little guy? :doh:

[The Avon Lady]

I don't have the exact details but I had a great experience sinking a River class DE yesterday with this mod. My computer crashed, so I don't have the exact times when everything occurred.

I was approaching a convoy on surface. at dusk. For some reason, my AI watch crew did not notice the DE heading straight for us until it got within 2800m or so. I ordered a crash dive and pivoted hard to STB.

I don't know why but I never heard a ping nor did any charges go off near my Uboat. Sound check showed charges going off not too far away but missing the mark completely.

I ordered the Uboat to 30m, did sound checks. Scope depth. The DE was with another one, less that 2km away, dropping charges. Idiots. I have no idea why this was happening.

I decided that it would benefit my future approach against the convoy to take out one of these clowns. Seas were very rough and I tried to keep my scope as low as possible.

At first, the DE I was targeting started moving away toward my STB side but then it eventually pivoted around toward its STB side. It still wasn't aware of my scope.

I now had to hastily pivot to port to line the DE up for a shot just after it completed its turn. I fired while still pivoting, just as the DE was straightening out in front of me, range under 900m. Torpedo depth set at 1m.

After firing, I followed the target until the torpedo hit. Bang! it hit the DE's stern, ahead of where the shafts protrude from the hull. A lot of smoke and steam but that stopped a short while later.

I quickly ordered a crash dive and pivoted STB to move away from the target ASAP.

I decided I wanted to see the results topside, since in the past, this usually would have caused a DE to either sink or at least be dead in the water.

I don't know whether 20 or 40 minutes of game clock time elapse but eventually, it flooded little by little until it went down stern first, leaving the bow jutting straight out of the water for quite a long time.

I took a screen pic of the DE with bow up. Unfortunately, this is when my computer crashed (graphics adapter heat fatigue problems).

A very different experience from most similar encounters in my SH3 past. :yep:

[JonZ]

A great thanks for Teddy Beard and the other one I forgot his name from SimHQ. This is a great mod!

but err, I just wanted to point out some and not so obvious problem I have:

"Zones.cfg" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"LAB_VSmallAirBaseGB.cfg" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"LAB_VSmallAirBaseGB.dat" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"LAB_VSmallAirBaseGB.eqp" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"LAB_VSmallAirBaseGB.sns" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"LAB_VSmallAirBaseGB_shp.tga" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"Shells.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"English.cfg" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"CargoDef.cfg" has already been altered by the "Harbour_Traffic_147_for _RuB_145" mod.
"EnglishNames.cfg" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"EnglishNames.cfg" has already been altered by the "Harbour_Traffic_147_for _RuB_145" mod.
"FrenchNames.cfg" has already been altered by the "Harbour_Traffic_147_for _RuB_145" mod.
"GermanNames.cfg" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"GermanNames.cfg" has already been altered by the "Harbour_Traffic_147_for _RuB_145" mod.
"NCL_Fiji.sim" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NCL_Fiji.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NCV_Illustrious.sim" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NCV_Illustrious.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NCVE_Bogue.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NCVE_Casablanca.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NDD_Clemson.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NDD_Soldati.zon" has already been altered by the "Harbour_Traffic_147_for _RuB_145" mod.
"NHOS.sim" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NHOS.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NKC3.sim" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NKC3.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NKGN.sim" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NKGN.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NKSQ_.sim" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NKSQ_.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NKSs_.sim" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"NKSs_.zon" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"Locations.cfg" has already been altered by the "Improved U-Boatv102" mod.
"Locations.cfg" has already been altered by the "Harbour_Traffic_147_for _RuB_145" mod.





:(

[Der Teddy Bar]

The water level does matter.

So if you torpedo a target at a depth of 1 metre and as a result of other torpedo/s the first area is raised out of the water it will not flood any further.

Just to hammer it home...
If the damaged area is raised out of the water it will not flood any further.
The water level does matter!

This is especially important to remember when using the deck gun.

[Der Teddy Bar]

JonZ,
Thanks for the pointer, it is so hard to keep up with everything!

Rubini has joined the NYGM Team and will bring with him the Harbour Traffic Mod :up: It is our intention to supply 2 SCR files, onw inclusive of HT and one without HT.

I'll check out the Improved U-Boatv102 Mod. I'll have to find it first...

EDIT,,, I found it. Now I just got know what they did with the ships so I can let others know what the 'go' is :up:

[JonZ]

JonZ,
Thanks for the pointer, it is so hard to keep up with everything!

Rubini has joined the NYGM Team and will bring with him the Harbour Traffic Mod :up: It is our intention to supply 2 SCR files, onw inclusive of HT and one without HT.

I'll check out the Improved U-Boatv102 Mod. I'll have to find it first...

EDIT,,, I found it. Now I just got know what they did with the ships so I can let others know what the 'go' is :up:

Thanks, I'll be looking for results :D

BTW I just installed the mod anyway knowing that if there's problems I will be able to roll back (and report the bugs here).

Also, I rolled back SHCommander 3.4 before installing NYGM, I suppose you guys have fully tested NYGM with SHCommander?

[HEMISENT]

Teddy
Great news getting Rubini on the team. :up:

[tennozan]

DTB - just wanted to say thanks again. I've been enjoying this mod quite a bit - it certainly adds uncertainty! :roll:

I had to hang around for quite a while to finish off a tanker that just wouldn't go under - this was after hitting another that just blew apart and sank like lightning.

They are flooding! Not just getting hit points then going out like they just couldn't find a power-up kiosk. Very nice.

This mod and the latest SH3 Commander are keeping me sailing - even though Starforce (which like an oh so crafty pyramid scheme - is also calling itself FrontLine Pro) just deep-sixed my CD-R drive again. Grrrrrrr :hulk:

Keep up the good work lads!

[Der Teddy Bar]

JonZ,
I have had a look at some of the ship zon & sim files that you mentioned were in U-Boatv102 Mod. For the most part it would appear that they are unrequired as they have no changes. It would appear that they are included so as to overwrite another mod or just because.

The NYGM Tonnage War Mod is built on the foundations of RUB 1.45. Without wishing to be seen as cocky, it will be a great improvement over where RUB was.

The MED has been completely redone, very historical, including the major landings for the Allied North Africa campaign the resupply of Malta etc and will have more accurate shipping makeup. It will be very challenging as historically there was little un-escorted merchant traffic in the MED.


The NYGM Tonnage War Mod will include...
NYGM Tonnage War <= Tonnage is in, Renown is out. Everything is free, but takes time.
NYGM Ship Damage Mod
NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod
NYGM Crew Management Mod
NYGM Campaign Mod
Rubini's Harbour Traffic
RUB 1.45

Possibly,
NYGM Coastal Command Mod <= looking at air patrols etc

Future,
NYGM Ship Draft Mod

[Church SUBSIM]

Teddy, looks great. I assume that this will work over a Standard install of IUB as well as RUB (since IUB is built off of RUB 1.44).

Addicted to your Ship Damage and Crew alterations now.

What is this new harbor traffic? Is there a previous post about it? My search came up with nothing.

Thanks for your efforts,
Church

[uhu]

Please, make it so, that the several mods could be installed step-by-step, so, if somebody not wants all parts, could use only, which he needs.



The NYGM Tonnage War Mod will include...
NYGM Tonnage War <= Tonnage is in, Renown is out. Everything is free, but takes time.
NYGM Ship Damage Mod
NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod
NYGM Crew Management Mod
NYGM Campaign Mod
Rubini's Harbour Traffic
RUB 1.45

[Myxale]

Wow imagine a SH3 with those mods!
:rock: :arrgh!:
You Guys rock my Boot!

[baxter]

uhu wrote:Please, make it so, that the several mods could be installed step-by-step, so, if somebody not wants all parts, could use only, which he needs.



The NYGM Tonnage War Mod will include...
NYGM Tonnage War <= Tonnage is in, Renown is out. Everything is free, but takes time.
NYGM Ship Damage Mod
NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod
NYGM Crew Management Mod
NYGM Campaign Mod
Rubini's Harbour Traffic
RUB 1.45

Yes, I agree, I'm concerned that the time needed for upgrades may make the mod incompatable with my WaW patrols.

[Der Teddy Bar]

I am bumping this up for new users of the NYGM Ship Damage Mod which is in the NYGM Tonnage War Mod & the Grey Wolves Mod.

[Tonnage_Ace]

Little humor guys:

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1007/10ma1.jpg

Hey! He's not using NYGM! No fair!

[jasonb885]

It's actually quite confusing...

With all these NYGM threads floating around, how do I know if I'm using TWM 1.03 that I'm okay?

Do I need to install newer mini-mods on top with fixes or do I merely have to track TWM releases to get the latest?

Thanks.

:up:

[Der Teddy Bar]

It's actually quite confusing...

With all these NYGM threads floating around, how do I know if I'm using TWM 1.03 that I'm okay?

Do I need to install newer mini-mods on top with fixes or do I merely have to track TWM releases to get the latest?

Thanks.

:up:
Oops :oops: Good point.

NYGM Tonnage War v1.03 includes all the NYGM preview Mods.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Little humor guys:

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1007/10ma1.jpg

Hey! He's not using NYGM! No fair!
:rotfl: