Class 212 and 214 Boats

[Mocbo]

Who have mor Information about these....

In the Net all Information is rare.
The 212 is another Boat as the 214 .
Look at the Dive planes ..!! an where they are and then at the Stern Rudders .... Then the Structure is longer.

I have seen a Video from the 212 Boat. All is Digital on this Boat.
Many Touch Screens an Displays.. like the Seawolf. Shown as in a modern Awacs Jet ...

http://www.marine.de/02DB070000000001/vwASX/6CXNN9304INFODE.asx

Greetings

Moc

[Pigfish]

Nice vidio. :rock: heres another: http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=1/4/2006

Heres another link from the builder but this link used used to be better:
http://www.hdw.de/index_en.php?level=3&CatID=1.140.244&inhalt_id=1113&unter=244

Always a good source:
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/

Some nice Italian pics here:
http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=222007&page=5

etc etc. There are lots of good links and info about the 212A/14 out there. Shes not so secret anymore. :cool:

[Kapitan]

nice

[Smaragdadler]

We had a thread some time ago:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=44340&start=0
:yep:

[Mocbo]

Thanks for the Info

But all talks from the 212 What is with the 214 ??
If there are exiting mor Infos... ??
I know only that its have the Fuel Cell Plant but what is with the Speed, dive depth ,Weapons an the Sensors
Ive heared about a kind of Supercavitation Torpedo to counter incoming Torpedos. Or there wasmean the TAU 2000 multi counter measure System trhen can be used as vehicle to engage incoming torpedos?.
Then the new Missiles.
What for Steel is used for the Boat.....

What for Sensors have these boat. I have seen no Place for a Sonar Dome like in a 688 or similar sonars.

Greetings

Moc

[DangerousDaze]

Info on the 212/214.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/

[Smaragdadler]

http://misheli.image.pbase.com/g4/28/540728/2/51973783.2005_1108Image0035.jpg
http://users.otenet.gr/~kostast/241-5.jpg
U 214 - HN Class - PAPANIKOLIS S-120

more pics:
http://users.otenet.gr/~kostast/foto_214.htm
http://www.pbase.com/vikingspirit/image/51973783

[XabbaRus]

I have a model of that sitting on my HDD.

[Skybird]

214 originally was the 212 - planned to be built in license in Greece, with a slightly longer hull, if I remember correctly. Later, "214" also meant technical improvements which not only make the location of manufacturing a different one, but also the boat itself (slightly).

The 212 and 214 are also sold to Israel, Korea, and more interested customers are waiting on the list.

Sexy looking little cutie.

[Kapitan]

if i had to choose between akula and that then the akula stands no chance

[Sea Demon]

This is remarkable. German engineering and ingenuity is rather impressive. :up:

[Smaragdadler]

[...]
The 212 is another Boat as the 214 .
Look at the Dive planes ..!! an where they are[...]


http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/images/type212_2.jpg
Type U212A
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/images/type212_9.jpg
Type U214

So, the Dive Planes are not on the sail but on the hull. I have read that when they are on the sail, they are more effective on slow speeds, which means 212-A would have better manouverability. Bad point about planes on sail is - that they can brake off if you try to surface through ice. This means 214 is good for under ice-ops and 212A not?

[OKO]

This is remarkable. German engineering and ingenuity is rather impressive. :up:

Well ... german invented the modern sub concept.
That's because WWII winners took each one (russians, USA, british and french) some type XXI after the war they could start brand new submarine platforms from this date (and all of them started to built nuke submarines based on german technology)
Fortunatly (for democracy), the WWII ended before type XXI could really enter the war ...

But if you are impressed by actual German engineering, you should be also by French technology in conventionnal subs.
The counterpart of the 214 is the Scorpène, as modern as the 214 with only 31 crew members because of automatisation.
This submarine is state of the art of new SSK technology.

=>
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene/
http://www.dcn.fr/us/offre/sous-marins/scorpene.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/scorpene.htm

some pics =>
http://zone.sousmarins.free.fr/sous-marins%20du%20monde%2021.htm

[Mocbo]

These Boats more dangerous as a Kilo i think and the perfect Defanders of the Baltic an North Sea.
Some Nuclear Subs have to Respect for this very quiet small Boats.
In some reasons i think these Boats designed for more than North or Baltic Sea ops.....

Greetings Moc.

[TLAM Strike]

This is remarkable. German engineering and ingenuity is rather impressive. :up:

Well ... german invented the modern sub concept.
That's because WWII winners took each one (russians, USA, british and french) some type XXI after the war they could start brand new submarine platforms from this date (and all of them started to built nuke submarines based on german technology)
Fortunatly (for democracy), the WWII ended before type XXI could really enter the war ... Ummm no the Germans didn't, the Americans did. John Phillip Holland's 'Holland'-class design was much like the basic design of the XXI. It was designed to operate submerged, dive at an angle and operate with a streamlined hull. The Americans were also responsible for the loss of this design for the most part, Simon Lake's design philosophy of high surface performance at the expense of submerged performance, diving on an even keel, and deck armaments became the US standard till the GUPPY class subs of the 1950’s. The German’s didn’t invent anything new in desperation they just took ideas everyone else and forgotten or ignored and built a better design in terms of submerged performance, in terms of weapons, sensors, and tactics the US was ahead by a quite a bit.

[LuftWolf]

Gato baby. Oh yeah. :rock:

[TLAM Strike]

Gato baby. Oh yeah. :rock: HELL YEAH! 62 year service life says all that needs to be said about the Gato/Balao/Tench class. :up:

[Smaragdadler]

inside the Papanikolis (South Korea's type 214)
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8639/pytheaspapanikolis7au.jpg
consoles of the ISUS 90-15 combat management and weapons control system
Attack Periscope SERO 400EO in the center

some thread from military photos net:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68133

[aaken]

Actually the 212 and the 214 don't have much in common.
The 214 is a direct evolution of the 209/1400. It's a single hull boat, has the same pressure hull diameter and frames as the 209. The free flood upper casing is restyled but the bow is similar to the 209. It has a free flood lower casing that stretches roughly from bow to stern (which the 209 didn't have) where the metal hydrides containers (H2 storage) are placed. The LOX tank is inside the pressure hull.
The 212 and the italian 212A are quite different. They are partly single hulled (the aft section containing diesel engine room and propulsion engine is double hulled), the diameter is much larger than 214 (7 meters against 6.3 meters), the bow has nothing to do with 214 or 209 and both the metal hydrid containers for H2 and the LOX tanks are placed outside the pressure hull, aft of the sail.

[LuftWolf]

How do they compare in terms of overall ability?

[Smaragdadler]

some production line graphics to illustrate aaken's post:

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/7975/u2122145an.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/6985/family2ge.jpg

[Smaragdadler]

How do they compare in terms of overall ability?
Not easy to find out. This is someones post from military photos net:

Using google i found this:

The U212A is specially made for littoral waters (ie. shallow waters of nothern Europe), with a number of bold choices in the design which are not found in any other SSK :
- Only one Diesel generator. Still have the fuel cells in case of failure, and we are never far from the coast. Implies a smaller and shorter sub for shallow water warfare.
- Only one battery set (perhaps divided in two electrical boards, perhaps not...) battery is only used for sprints. For patrol, the fuel cells are used => smaller sub.
- non magnetic steel. Ideal for shallow and littoral waters where aircraft threat is real and deep diving useless (water depth < 200m most of the time)

IMO range on fuel cell is about 25 days at an average speed of 4 knots, total range (snorkel/dive cycles) is about 7000 NM at 8 knots. However, submerged ranges on a SSK highly depends on the electric hotel load of the sub. ie, if you used 100% of the combat system and other auxiliairies, the range will be reduced quite much.

Weapons : 6 tubes / 12 weapons

U214 can be considered as a more conventional sub (littoral + open sea) for export derived from U212A but not necessarily better (it depends what you intend to do with it!):
- two DG sets
- two battery sets
- conventional magnetic steel for improved max depth
- "cross" type aft planes instead of "X" type
All in a bigger sub....

For the fuel cells, I think that the germans have the best AIP system (not talking about nuclear power of course!) with them far ahead of the stirling engine (Sweden) or the MESMA (France).

http://www.strategypage.com/messageb...s/462-1714.asp (http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/462-1714.asp)

means the advantage of U212 is that its trunk consists of a non magnetical non leading material, this means mines can't stick on it. The sensors of mines ,submarines ,fighters can not measure magnetic distortions and this is why it is no longer detectable with today's technology

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=77348&highlight=u214

[LuftWolf]

Ok, so in Mod terms, other than the basic parameters, the only real difference is that the 212 has no MAD signature at all.

Wow, that's a royal pain in the ass if you should happened to need to find these things. :o

Thanks!

Cheers,
David

[aaken]

They both have non magnetic steel hull (a German standard since the 60's), although the boats which are built in cooperation with the customer (like Greece or South Korea) may follow different materiel specification (you choose magnetic steel but acquire greater diving depth than the original), but the 214 has smaller underwater range on the AIP than the 212/212A (around 15 days at 5 kts against 25-28 days at same speed).
As for the only battery set used in 212, that's because there is not enogh space in the after part (the one with a smaller diameter) to accomodate both engine room and battery. Plus it would upset the trim since the metal hydride containers placed in the lower part of the aft section are already very heavy.
Also the U214, although being considerably longer than the 212, is not bigger. They are both around 1700 cubic meters dived.

[LuftWolf]

Ok, so then very small MAD signature for both... :) :lol:

[Smaragdadler]

They both have non magnetic steel hull (a German standard since the 60's), [...]
Ok, so then very small MAD signature for both...
What is with the other 'german' diesels already in DW?

Brazil - TYPE 209/1400 mod 3, Germany - Type 206 SS etc.

Maybe somthing for LWAmi?

[aaken]

I would think that the MAD signature of the german Type206 is not correct.
Another thing would be manouverability. in LwAmi3.02 a lot of boats with extremely different size have the same manouverability parameter (maybe it's a turn radius or something of the like). I mean if an Akula has 500 turn radius, and it's something like 10-12000 tonns, how is it possible that a Kilo (1/4th of the size) has the same radius and the Type206 which is 6 times smaller than the Kilo plus has a big rudder aft of the propeller has the same turn radius? I think this could be also something to look into for the next LwAmi version.

EDIT: I spoke of tonnage when I should have spoken of length o.a. and diameter, but the reasoning is the same.

[LuftWolf]

Sure, we can look into this. Keep in mind, I am limited as to what I can do with the player boats because the manoevering crew is expecting a certain turning rate from the database, and generally takes into account the maneovering differences between playable submarines at that level.

For strictly AI submarines this can probably be changed without problem, but that is one of those variables in the database that is integrally tied into the physics algorithms, and things can easily get messed up if the changes are made without careful attention.

Cheers,
David

[aaken]

Back in the days when I made the Toti SSK (47 m length o.a, 4.7 m diameter and 600 tonns) and tried it in the place of the chinese Kilo SS, I used values around 350 against the normal 500. The response was quite impressive compared with the very limited manouverability of the original Kilo. It didn't seem to make a big impact on longitudinal stability during sudden depth changes and tight turns. Or at least nothing comparable to the aft rising phenomenon in version 1.03 when coming shallow.

[LuftWolf]

Thanks for the information, I'll seriously look into this. :)

For example, the 688i should probably be able to turn faster than the Akula by a small but noticable margin, although, someone as always please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Amizaur]

Well, ultimate shallow water sub. Very smal, very capable, very quiet, very hard to detect on active sonar, no MAD signature (or minimal), good weapons (and with Black Shark torpedo even better). And what is most impressive, it's AIP propulsion with hydrogen fuel cells and revolutional way of storing the hydrogen. No need to snorkel for weeks, so even harder to detect it...

When given no MAD signature and very small active sonar tgt, would be ultimate enemy to hunt for both AIR platforms :-) And could kill a Seawolf in shallow water probably, det ranges could be around 1000yds or less for both (IRL) so who fires first wins.

[aaken]

What makes you think it will be difficult to detect on active sonar? It may be small for nukes but has a nice section of 7 meters in diameter nonetheless. There are much smaller diesel subs than that. I would immagine that the "little ones" produced in Europe in the 60s-70s (like the Type206 with 450 tonns or the italian Toti SSK with 580 tonns) were very difficult to detect on active sonar.
For example, from experience, three sikorsky sh3d could have a very hard time to get a fix on that little bastard Toti SSK down in the Med, if he had a layer. And this doesn't mean in littoral waters but in open sea. Many times in exercises with the 6th fleet those boats managed to sink the carrier, and quite a few times they did that without being counterdetected.

[Amizaur]

What makes you think it will be difficult to detect on active sonar? It may be small for nukes but has a nice section of 7 meters in diameter nonetheless. There are much smaller diesel subs than that.

It's not only size that counts, it's also materials and shape. The B-2 is larger than F-16 but has smaller RCS because of both shape and materials.
Type-212 is said to has not only anti-sonar coating but also shape of it's composite outside hull is designed to reduce strength of sonar returns.

[XabbaRus]

Well I have a 214 modelled and I think kind of painted.

aaken when will you be online to help me transfer to J3D?

[aaken]

Send it over by mail. ;)
I'm usually online on MSN.

[Deamon]

Ok, so then very small MAD signature for both... :) :lol: And the sonar cross section of a cola cane. :yep:

It is so quiet that little background noise is enough and it becomes undetectable on passive sonar even from close range.

I heared a lot about it and what I heard is yaw dropping.

The diving depth is so big that it can simple outdive all current ASW weapons. Boy don't let me get into the 212.

I was told about a maneuver with a 212 vs an US asw groupe that took one month. Every time the ASW group thought it found the boat and surrounded it the 212 pinged them way outside the circle ruining their day and the search began from scratch again. Slowly one by one the 212 took each of the ships out till no one was left. Its crew must have had a lot of fun :sunny:

This boat is outrages. You don't even need to send it out. Rummors should be enought to scare everyone away. :lol:

[SandyCaesar]

Amina! I'd hate to have to go up against one of them in littoral waters. (Open-ocean is a little different, as the nuke's endurance is definitely better for open-ocean or offensive operations.) But defensively...I want one.:rock:

[...]
The 212 is another Boat as the 214 .
Look at the Dive planes ..!! an where they are[...]

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/images/type212_2.jpg
Type U212A
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/images/type212_9.jpg
Type U214

So, the Dive Planes are not on the sail but on the hull. I have read that when they are on the sail, they are more effective on slow speeds, which means 212-A would have better manouverability. Bad point about planes on sail is - that they can brake off if you try to surface through ice. This means 214 is good for under ice-ops and 212A not?

I will have to dispute that point, two years later. AFAIK, the US Sturgeon class had sail-mounted diving planes, and were still capable of under-ice operations. The sails were supposed to be able to fold up against the sail to help breach the ice.

What I want to know, however, is their sonar capabilities. I know that this is a very sensitive topic, but theoretically wouldn't nukes have the edge here? Nukes can house a towed-array, which admittedly wouldn't be that useful in a littoral environment, and can have loads of hull-arrays, which diesel boats simply don't have (one or two conformal arrays--not enough to range-gate passively).

So, on the whole, AIP-diesel boats make for deadly littoral hunters, but nukes generally have the advantage in reach, range, and open-ocean ops.

Oh, and one last question: what kind of engine is MESMA (Scorpene class)? How does it work? And as for the Stirling engines (Gotland), considering they're modified diesels running closed-circuit: just how quiet are they, anyway?

[goldorak]

What I want to know, however, is their sonar capabilities. I know that this is a very sensitive topic, but theoretically wouldn't nukes have the edge here? Nukes can house a towed-array, which admittedly wouldn't be that useful in a littoral environment, and can have loads of hull-arrays, which diesel boats simply don't have (one or two conformal arrays--not enough to range-gate passively).



Say again !! :|\\


Sonar suite

The vessel's sonar suite includes a long-range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, a high-resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance and a towed array.


Source : http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/scorpene/

Its not about the type 212/214 but the french equivalent scorpene.

[SandyCaesar]

Ah. I take that back. Thanks, Goldorak.

[Castout]

I have a model of that sitting on my HDD.

I built one too but the masts were ruined :damn: by someone while I put it on display so I gave it away :)

[Deamon]

but the 214 has smaller underwater range on the AIP than the 212/212A (around 15 days at 5 kts against 25-28 days at same speed). Don't let you deceive by any official data. Its true capeabilities are much greater than what is being officialy admitted. It has been said that it actually can operate the entire patrol without snurkeling.

Many of the signatures are completely eliminated. It has been also stated that besides the little emissions it makes the 212 has a special new stealth technology that makes it undetectable but it hasn't been said what the nature of it is. At least the periscope cannot be detected on radar. This boat has gone completely steath.

This is the german sea wolf class if not even better. And btw on the 212 they fianlly use waterfall displays. :)

Concerning the steel I think the HY 80 was used for the 212.

As for the only battery set used in 212, that's because there is not enogh space in the after part (the one with a smaller diameter) But you could also say that's because it has an AIP now so it is not anymore so dependant on batteries, hence they made it smaller and besides that this new batteries have surely a much higher capacity than thous on the older boats.

[OneShot]

Actually the German 212A just like its predecessor the 206A is made of amagnetic steel. Guess thats kinda hard on the MAD sensor of flying platforms. :arrgh!:

Here is a pretty good Wikipedia link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

[Kpt. Weyprecht]

I know this thread starts aging a little bit but I stalked over it and couldn't help myself asking - if the Germans start using waterfall displays on the 212, then what did they use before?

[Deamon]

I know this thread starts aging a little bit but I stalked over it and couldn't help myself asking - if the Germans start using waterfall displays on the 212, then what did they use before? It appears to me that on the type 206a, they used a sort of circular visualization, similar to what you see in DW on the russian boats, which seems to be displayed ontop of the tactical/nav map. But it don't seem to update so fast like it happens in DW.

[dyshman]

in new release of RA addon ssk 212 will be playable! new screen-shots awailable on (WIP 70%)
http://redrodgers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=96469#post96469

[falconsix]

Last time, i was in a Typ 206 Sub, there was a Kind of Waterfall Display like in the LA Class, but it drawn the Contacts with Pencils on a running paper, like the MAD in the Orion in DW. There was written "Breitband, Schmalband" what called "Broadband and Narrowband".

But this was some years ago, i am not sure...

This was in the Technical Museum in Spyer, Germany. And yes, i am German...

[jmr]

Wow, how many rolls of paper did they have on that thing?

[falconsix]

I am not sure, it is possible, too, that the papersystem is only for things like Demon or Narrowband.

Or the saylors must clean their butt with something other, if the paper goes out...:rotfl:

ahem...^^

[baggygreen]

the 214 is a real purty boat....

I'm curious, do the germans with their 212/214s, and the french with their scorpenes train against the yanks? I know the swedes lent the yanks a boat and crew for practice, and I know the collins boats are regularly being used in exercises against the yanks, but surely these are far and away better than the collins boats!