Newbie: How much do you "tip-toe"

[Siinji30]

Hi. New to Dangerous Waters, and I´m trying to find a rythm for playing at. What speed are you usually travelling around with. When do you go lower than that? And if you´re trying to get a good TMA do you travel at 7-8 kts. (moving around a bit) with bearing changes to get better TMA? Or do you 3 kts. all the time to not get heard by the enemy? How much do you "tip-toe"? And what is recommended?

[darksythe]

IMHO it depends on what you are trying to accomplish are you trying to sneak up on a already detected platfrom? if so then plot a course which you can go your slowest and still come in to whatever range your looking for.

7kts is good for working a tma track.

And the highest speed that you should go is going to be dependant on the sounds conditions and how low you can dive. go to the SSP station and have a look at the sound layers in you area, or if you want to be sure about it, or have moved a signifigant amount from where youve started launch a XBT and wait untill it gives you new layer information.

Hope this helps.

[SKeeM]

It really depends on alot of variables. if your in a 688 and hear pings from a surface ship but have nothing on sonar. You might want ot get an ESM cheak. If you catch him on ESM and still have no sonar contact Its safe to dive a bit and run fast and then go for another ESM cheak. That way between the pings and ESM you can get a good idea of were he is. If you have a faint contact on your TA and nothing on your sphear? Its safe to run at a faster speed to get a better cross bearing or closer to the target to try and catch him on your sphear also. When i say run faster i mean about 10-12 knots. Slowing to 4-6 knots. Again it dependes on your target. If you know your hunting a Kilo wich is very silent. Your faint signal on the TA may not mean he is far away. So a constant speed of 4-6 knots with course changes would be the safe bet. It all comes down to knowlage of your ships sensors, Knowlage of your enemys capabilitys, Understanding the inviorment, The info provided in the mission briefing and you gut feeling.

[WargamerScott]

Hi. New to Dangerous Waters, and I´m trying to find a rythm for playing at. What speed are you usually travelling around with. When do you go lower than that? And if you´re trying to get a good TMA do you travel at 7-8 kts. (moving around a bit) with bearing changes to get better TMA? Or do you 3 kts. all the time to not get heard by the enemy? How much do you "tip-toe"? And what is recommended?


I'm new to DW myself so I'll take a crack at this answer based on my limited experience.

If there are no immediate threats in the area, I usually cruise along at 10-12 knots, slowing every half hour or so to check the sonar picture. Once I have a contact that interests me, I slow to 7-8 knots. And, once I am positive that it is a hostile contact, I creep along at 5 knots (assuming the target is coming to me and I don't have to chase it). If I have to chase it, then I catch up by doing some sprint and drifts.

Hope this helps too.

[TLAM Strike]

Depends on what you are driving. With the kilo I stay around the 1-5 knots range. With a nuc boat I search 5-15 knots and fight 'loud and proud'. :ping:

[Oberon]

I usually 'sprint and drift' whilst searching the datum. Dropping below the layer if possible and notching the engines up to full for 15-45 minutes, then slowing down to 5 knots, poking up above the layer, having a good listen and then dropping down again.
If anything comes up then I'll see if I can figure which way it's going and try to get ahead of it and set up an ambush.

[Angle]

Changeing course and speed several times is best for tma with just a single source.



Man I miss fast attack.

[compressioncut]

There's a rule called the 5/50/5 rule, where you alter your course by at least 50 degrees, and speed by at least 5 knots, at least every 5 minutes. It's more a defensive tactic designed to stifle the other guy's TMA, rather than help with yours, though. Good for surface ships and possibly the best passive defense to employ, as the sub is relying pretty much altogether on TMA.

[Angle]

Yes. but when you alter your course when developing TMA you alter the "fan" of the bearings. You get to a point where can alter your speed and course and have no change in the ruler if there is no change in the target's course/speed. You can end up with a fairly accurate long range solution with just the towed array that way.

[Kapitan]

under ice never fater than 4 knots in a track unless behind a contact that is going faster (only cause i can mask my own noise)

attacking 3 knots running away anything to flank at 30 meters

[drEaPer]

When Im in a Seawolf i m at 15 kts most of the time and slow down regulary to check below and above the layer. With the 688 I m at 13 kts most of the time. Akula I cruise at 7 and with a Kilo as slow as the situation allows.

[Apocal]

Good for surface ships and possibly the best passive defense to employ, as the sub is relying pretty much altogether on TMA.

This will probably make the "true" submariners onboard roll their eyes, but I've found that making a quick radar sweep is great for getting a workable firing solution on a surface unit. And more than once it's had the unexpected side benefit of revealing "drifters" (too) close by.

[sonar732]

Good for surface ships and possibly the best passive defense to employ, as the sub is relying pretty much altogether on TMA.

This will probably make the "true" submariners onboard roll their eyes, but I've found that making a quick radar sweep is great for getting a workable firing solution on a surface unit. And more than once it's had the unexpected side benefit of revealing "drifters" (too) close by.

Roll my eyes nothing...I almost spit my drink on my keyboard! :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Bellman]

A very high risk tactic Apocal for many reasons. But you do say a ''quick'' sweep and some very successful
Seawolf submariners used this technique at the start of a SC sub v sub MP scenario to eliminate surfs from the picture.

However the question was about speed of progress and tip-toeing As a submariner when you are searching you
tend to sprint and drift with 'regular' course changes to clear the TA and SA baffles. However, now, the LwAmi
3.0 mod forces you to proceed with extreme caution, as the more realistic reduced sonar detection ranges
can mean a silent slow sub lurker can be almost undetectable within 5 nm.

So now, more 'cruise, tack, clear and crawl' than sprint and drift. Its more edgy, realistic and yes, fun.
But the choice of these tactics depends on whether the scenario was designed for vanila or LwAmi.

After establishing an initial NB contact when closing to investigate or mount an attack your speed and depth
of progress depends on the SSP, your estimate of your potential for concealment (given the platforms
identity is still unknown) and the need to build up your sonar picture for TMA. However you can make some
tentative assumptions about what a hostile 'needs' to do, and plan accordingley.

This next 'cat and mouse' stage is for most bubbleheads the hook which feeds their adrenalin. Building an accurate
manual TMA , ''tip-toeing' speed, depth and course to fox, fix the target in your sights and send him shrimping.
Thats the buzz - greater than any flight sim and I say that as a past addict of that genre.

PS. If any potential DW purchasers are reading this - please move into the fast lane of excitement ......................
Go and buy right now. :rock: :|\

[Bellman]

I am sure that more experienced divers could write a book on this topic and the above is a mere flavour.

However I want to add a rider to my remark about ''extreme caution'' Within this 'game' fortune favours the bold.
There is always a trade-off between the risk of exposure and deploying your sub and its sensors to
maximum advantage. The need to obtain and implement the most accurate sensor information is paramount to
securing the 'big picture' and initiating an attack.

Aggressive, and successful, submariners will always risk exposure to secure the initiative.

[Angle]

Good for surface ships and possibly the best passive defense to employ, as the sub is relying pretty much altogether on TMA.

This will probably make the "true" submariners onboard roll their eyes, but I've found that making a quick radar sweep is great for getting a workable firing solution on a surface unit. And more than once it's had the unexpected side benefit of revealing "drifters" (too) close by.

Roll my eyes nothing...I almost spit my drink on my keyboard! :rotfl: :rotfl:


Heh. Well. One sensor you wouldn't normally use is active sonar. But against a player controlled FFG. Ping at will.

[Kapitan]

write a book eh bellman some of us already done hehe :D

[Three14]

I played slow and sneaky until I went online with the Seawolves back in the 688i days. Then I found that slow didn't matter much in the types of situations typical in the dives of those days.

Now I tend to play in more of that style (faster, bolder), online or off, at least in a nuclear sub (I've tried in the demo Kilo, too. Getting better at it). One big difference is that missions are more often designed with stricter time goals as compared to 688i H/K (in 1997), so hanging out at 2 knots isn't going to cut it. The second is simply that I'm better at evading and the like now, so the cost is much lower than it used to be, especially since single player AI tends to be conservative with torpedoes (though without mods they don't nearly snapshot on bearing enough, making slow and steady more viable).

The third is simply that it's more fun to move through the space. It gives me more of a feeling of making things happen and lets me think of being places far away. If I were in the habit of thinking more like a Kilo, it's easy for me to think about making all my moves within a small circle of water. For me, that takes away the "playground" fun and makes it more a "figure out what the designer wanted" challenge.

Part of why Bill Nichol's missions are always so appealing, I think, is that they have a lot of play to them. For these types of special challenges in a sub, slow and steady is good stuff, since they really don't know what's going on and you have more options going in.

[Bill Nichols]

I almost aways drive a 688 boat. The only times I 'go fast' are:

a) When the scenario requires me to get someplace quickly,
b) When 'escorting' a fast surface group, or
c) When evading torpedos.

Otherwise, I tend to stay at 5-6 knots, increasing to 8-9 knots when making TMA turns (higher speed helps the towed array straighten-out sooner).

:arrgh!:

[Apocal]

Roll my eyes nothing...I almost spit my drink on my keyboard! :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it's stupid, but works...

A very high risk tactic Apocal for many reasons.

Not as much as one would think. No one I know of sits and watches the EW console, so they've never (to my knowledge) IDed my radar. I'm sure some figured out what it was, but by then a few Harpoons were using their ship as a landing pad.

One sensor you wouldn't normally use is active sonar. But against a player controlled FFG. Ping at will.

Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Wildcat]

You shall rue the day when FFG's get active sonar intercept.

[Bill Nichols]

Good for surface ships and possibly the best passive defense to employ, as the sub is relying pretty much altogether on TMA.

This will probably make the "true" submariners onboard roll their eyes, but I've found that making a quick radar sweep is great for getting a workable firing solution on a surface unit. And more than once it's had the unexpected side benefit of revealing "drifters" (too) close by.

When I was umpire on a guided-missile cruiser during RIMPAC 82, an 'opposition' sub tried that trick on us (actually, he was using his periscope radar to get a range on us, but the idea is the same). We killed him faster than you can say "Torpedo in the water!". :yep:

[SeaQueen]

Hi. New to Dangerous Waters, and I´m trying to find a rythm for playing at. What speed are you usually travelling around with. When do you go lower than that? And if you´re trying to get a good TMA do you travel at 7-8 kts. (moving around a bit) with bearing changes to get better TMA? Or do you 3 kts. all the time to not get heard by the enemy? How much do you "tip-toe"? And what is recommended?

Lately I've been heavily into the FFG. I usually cruise at about 12-15kts. The idea is to defend against torpedos by keeping my limiting lines of approach narrow. If I go fast and zig-zag a lot, it's very difficult for a comparably submarine to close sufficiently to shoot a torpedo at me. That forces him to make a long-range ASCM attack. With a little bit of luck, and a lot of chaff and SM-2s, I can hopefully defend against it.

When I play a surface ship, I don't generally worry too much about the submarine detecting me from a long way away. If they are played skillfully, they should almost always detect me by some means before I can detect them. High speed will give me the ability to evade torpedos and keep the distances sufficiently opened that I can prosecute with a helo.

[JamesT73J]

The problem with 'sprint and drift' is that it tends to work well until you play someone that knows what they're doing, or you've got a sub nearby that you simply haven't noticed.

I used to this is in Subclub a while back with SC, until I kept getting caught out by 'slow and steady' players who were watching sonar closely. Remember that they only need to hear you the once to get a tracker on you. Even if they're 25kyds away, the moment they've got you you've lost the initiative, and there are some guys out there that can do monster TMA even at long range, thus you're immediately on the defensive and have basically given them control of the situation.

[Bellman]

Apocal: ''Not as much as one would think. No one I know of sits and watches the EW console,
so they've never (to my knowledge) IDed my radar.''

:D ''To my knowledge'' :o :hmm: - For example the SW ESM sensor range is much greater than the effective range
of its opponent subs radar. And dont forget the radar beam travels over twice as far again as its effective range .
Then factor in the limitations to radar performance due to weather.

Slow and steady, cruise and crawl, is my preferred modus in LwAmi, but hey, I dont want to dissuade the 'bold and brave'....
.............Heck no ! ;)

Sometimes in MP, with limited playing time available, and a scenario with known longer range starting points,
you just have to get on with it, if you want other players to enjoy the experience and look for future rematches.

[SeaQueen]

The problem with 'sprint and drift' is that it tends to work well until you play someone that knows what they're doing, or you've got a sub nearby that you simply haven't noticed.

Sprint and drift is actually a good tactic for surface ships when it's properly employed. I think, there's actually some mathematics regarding how long to sprint and how long to drift that's intended to minimize the problem you are talking about. The trick to sprint and drift is that you're trying to maintain a high speed of advance, which will decrease the space in which submarines can start and approach to within a given distance. Combine this with zig zags and you'll be making it very difficult for them to get close while maximizing your sensor range.

Sprint and drift is actually a difficult tactic about which much has been said in books, but few people really know what they're doing with. Personally, I'd rather use fast or moderate speed on the FFG and slow speeds in a submarine.

[Apocal]

:D ''To my knowledge'' :o :hmm: - For example the SW ESM sensor range is much greater than the effective range
of its opponent subs radar. And dont forget the radar beam travels over twice as far again as its effective range .
Then factor in the limitations to radar performance due to weather.

Detection isn't identification and there's no auto ID for EW contacts on frigates. Sea state aside, weather doesn't affect radar that much in DW.

Now, in real life, if I tried this, it would be dumb, because surface ships have a full time crew who do nothing but watch EW consoles and pride themselves on being able to ID nearly any emitter within seconds. DW, not so much.

Dumb question:

When I'm on the drift leg, how do I keep my towed array from drooping too far below? It falls beneath the layer and I can't hear anything, except far off cavitating subs and ships.

[sonar732]

A good rule of thumb is to deploy the towed array only to the 'S' of your indicator.

[compressioncut]

Sprint and drift is actually a difficult tactic about which much has been said in books, but few people really know what they're doing with. Personally, I'd rather use fast or moderate speed on the FFG and slow speeds in a submarine.

Sprint and drift for suface ships is very difficult because there are so many other concerns occupying the powers-that-be that you really have to dumb it down. We've tried it and it is preferred but man it's pretty theoretical. That's why the 5/50/5 rule is about as complicated as it gets, except maybe in tactics manuals.

You get tiny little TAPA boxes, SOAs at ridiculous speeds, the AAW nerds are always whining about something or other, SUBOPAUTH is jamming rules down your throat, the waterspace management doesn't jive with your standing OPTASK, SURTASS and air assets are cueing completely different locations and so and so forth ad nauseum. Real ASW is pretty damn awkward most of the time.

[Sub Sailor]

In 24 years I was never on a sub that emitted anything. I only saw radar used when entering and leaving port, and only if there were no bad guy trawlers off the entrance. I only heard sonar used when the Sonar guys were checking it.
Speed- transiet sprint/drift 25 knots slow to 4-5 after 5 -6 minutes check your baffles and off again. US Subs travel in a box, for safety. You are given radio check in times, and the box is so they can find you if you fail to report in. The orders will specify all of this and it is adhered to the letter.
Once you are on station and depending on orders you spend a lot of time at 4-5 knots, Boomer spend their whole life it seemed like at 3-4 knots. During the "Cold War" Boomer duty was about like watching grass grow. Thank God for WSRT and Engineering drills. BUT off crew was great. SSN stands for underway Saturday, Sunday and Nights.
Don't forget if you want a quick and easy way to find out if anyone is around, (not a sub), stick the periscope up you get signal and strength and from that you can tell how close they are. I believe they could even tell what the freq was, but not sure anymore.

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

[SeaQueen]

Sprint and drift for suface ships is very difficult because there are so many other concerns occupying the powers-that-be that you really have to dumb it down. We've tried it and it is preferred but man it's pretty theoretical. That's why the 5/50/5 rule is about as complicated as it gets, except maybe in tactics manuals.


I don't doubt it, I think I said as much too. I think just keeping a very high SOA so that limiting lines of approach are narrow, and putting "expendable" screens as far forward as possible, such that they cover the entirety of the arc subtended by the limiting lines of approach is probably the only real way to create an "optimal" ASW screen.

The mathematics of how long to sprint and how long to drift in order to catch a given target leaves very little room for error. It's not like barrier searches where departing from the mathematically optimal search tends to make only a little difference unless the search was basically a bad idea anyhow. I wonder, then, why it's mentioned so frequently as a tactic in historical works (WWI and WWII). Was there a historical situation where the other concerns which make it meaningless today weren't such an issue? Or maybe those histories are incorrect? Maybe WWII convoys crept along at a snail's pace. Who knows?

*shrug*

[LuftWolf]

I'm SURE some SHIII naval historical hotshot type can tell me how I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that convoys crossing the Atlantic during WWII did so generally at full steam for the slowest boats, which would be 9-12kts, perhaps a bit more, and try to make a zig zag pattern.

The goal was to confuse visual range and solution finding, not sonar and TMA ranging.

[SeaQueen]

The goal was to confuse visual range and solution finding, not sonar and TMA ranging.

I suspect there's another advantage to zig-zagging. It should also make it harder for a slower platform (a submarine) to position itself within the arc in front of the faster surface platform which will allow the slower platform to approach within a given range (most likely torpedo launch distance). They don't really care if a submarine has a solution on them, so long as it's kinematically impossible to close enough to shoot.