Question for the FFG users?

[U56]

I'm no expert in DW, but I have a hunch the Nixie does not work on the OHP when its under human control. Perhaps some more experienced players can tell me if my hunch is right or wrong.

My suspicion was first aroused when streaming the nixie did not appear to make any difference to sound profile on the towed array returns.

Replays of missions with "show truth" always showed other surface vessels with towed decoys when evading torpedos, but never my own OHP even though I had deployed nixie and saw it in external view.

I ran a simple home created mission with just 2 platforms, both playable, an OHP and a Kilo. When I played as the Kilo the AI controlled OHP showed a towed decoy after I fired a torpedo at it in the replay. When I played as the OHP, I towed the nixie, but once again, this did not show up in the replay.

Anyone able to throw any more light on this?

Regards

[TLAM Strike]

I think I remember seeing torpedoes hit my Nixie before... :hmm:

[LuftWolf]

The Nixie does definately work, and you can definately hear it when other ships are streaming it.

However, I'm fairly certain that is does not show up on the Nav Map when ownship has it towed, and I'm not sure about the sound returns from the TA.

Note, the Nixie gives you no defense against wakehoming torpedoes, only active/passive. So if you stream it and the torpedo seems to ignore the decoy, check to see if it is a wakehoming torpedo. :up:

[U56]

The Nixie does definately work, and you can definately hear it when other ships are streaming it

My suspicion is that there may be a bug in the game that causes ownship towing it not to work. I am aware that it is not effective against wake-homing torps. I repeat that this is only a suspicion and a lot more gameplay experience is needed on my part to corroborate this or otherwise. That is why I was hoping the more experienced members might have more definitive proof one way or the other. Thank you for your replies and keep up the great work you have already done on improving DW.

Regards

[LuftWolf]

Using the mission editor you can set up a scenario where there is a hostile submarine (preferably one without wakehoming torpedoes) placed to your six, so that it fires right away. You can stream your Nixie and find out for sure if it works. :up: :know:

Creating these kinds of test scenarios to answer specific questions is both a great way to learn the game and to become familar with the mission editor.

Knowledge of the database and DWEdit, combined with a basic knowledge of the mission editor, allows any player to answer and test virtually any question related to the sim. Of course, knowing a bit about doctrines helps too, but is not necessary for answering basic "does this work" kind of questions.

Of course, I realize not everyone has time to do this, so asking questions is the next best way. :) :arrgh!:

[MaHuJa]

I suspect decoys in general have a "dud chance" given by the "cm effectiveness" in the database.

If 50% then on average every second countermeasure would do absolutely nothing. Except be a bright target to a human player.

This is only a theory of how it works though - other theories would be along the lines of how easily it seduces a torpedo to break lock with the real target, but I'm doubtful.

[LuftWolf]

The Nixie effectiveness against active/passive torpedoes is 85%, as opposed to OTS or launched CM's which have a 50% effectiveness.

I'm not entirely sure how this actually plays out in terms of weapons in gameplay, but I suspect that the first time the acoustic engine does a check for any given weapon on a decoy for a doctrine based "NewTrack" the engine rolls a die to determine the chance that it won't be attracted. The other way it might work is as MaHuJa has suggested, that upon launch or deployment the die is rolled and the decoy is rendered either effective or not at all effective for all weapons.

I also suspect that the the chance is not on a linear scale, meaning that 25% will nearly never work, as opposed to 1 chance out of 4. But this is purely conjecture, as I haven't systematically tested it.

The same also holds true for the anti-missile CM's Chaff and Flares. If anyone knows exactly how this works, I'm all ears, because I am trying to sort out the balance between how effective MANPAD's should be verses Flare effectiveness to try to get some balance into the airdale vs. submarine match without making the MANPAD's completely ineffective.

[MaHuJa]

Thing is, my theory doesn't really explain some of the behaviour (if this behaviour is real, not only perceived) that slower moving missiles (tasm, harpoon) is more susceptible to CMs than faster moving ones.
(Though it may be arguable that it should be opposite?)

It could possibly be that each sensor update, there is a
(effectiveness/value)/100
against a random 0 to 100.

If that value would be constant, there would be cases of 100% effectiveness would let weapons through. If dependent on the effectiveness...

A radar missile will have more sensor updates on the way if it took longer time to travel, i.e. is slower. It also will help to keep the weapon seeing the CM for as much time as possible. That would explain two more things: The non-linearity of the scale (a value at 10 vs effectiveness 25% would give 2,5% per update, which over n updates adds up to far less than 50% effectiveness would with the same value over the same n updates) and the thing that torpedoes have sometimes decided to chase CMs on a whim. Though I know one cause of that - losing track with the target (a sub slowing down when it had been tracked by passive) it won't properly explain all the cases i've seen.


I'd really like for SCS to tell us.

[U56]

Well I followed LuftWolf's advice and reran a number of times a sub v ffg scenario with no Wakehoming torps, comparing results both with and without the Nixie. Though far from exhaustive, initial observations seem to bear out that the nixie of ownship does have an effect on the torpedoes. In each case I took no evasive action, steaming in a straight line at 10 knots, sometimes towing the nixie, sometimes not. In all cases the hostile sub fired a spread of 4 torpedos at me. In all cases they hit and destroyed me (not surprising considering my course and speed :D ). Closely observing the replays did show a difference in torpedo tracks if the nixie was towed, with one or 2 of the 4 torpedos diverting towards the rear of the ffg, and all heading straight for the ffg when no nixie. This puts my suspicions of a bug pretty much to rest. I only ran a small number of tests, not enough for any useful statistical analysis, just enough to observe a difference in behaviour.

Regards

[Zerogreat]

I also found Nixie to be unsatisfatory uneffective, so i did some testing on this matter and found something interesting :hmm:

After lots of tests it seems, that the Nixie, after spoofing one torpedo (ie when the torpedo comes close to nixie and suddenly disappears) is then no longer effective :huh: It needs to be retracted and then streamed again, and then it is again effective for one torpedo :hmm:

(i am not sure if it needs to be fully retracted or it is enough to partially retract it and stream again, but from what i saw it seems that it needs to be Fully retracted and then streamed to wrok again)

So in my tests, the first torpedo most of the time disappeared because of the nixie.... so if i got a sub firing one torpedo and then after a minute or so two more (like my last test) it worked this way:

1)
nixie streamed
1st torpedo disappears
...
2nd torpedo hits my ship
3rd torpedo hits my ship


2) (now with this "trick")
nixie streamed
1st torpedo disappears
retrieve nixie
stream nixie
2nd torpedo disappears
3rd torpedo hits my ship (because i had no time to retrieve and stream this time :) )


So..because i havent seen this noticed anywhere that you need to do this in order to make the nixie work after it has decoyed a torpedo... might it be a bug? :hmm:
Now either i am dumb OR someone should take a look on the nixie :hmm:

[Kapitan]

nixie has work for me on MP games and so has the towed array :D

[Zerogreat]

Maybe i am cursed then :hmm:

[SeaQueen]

I think they're trying to simulate the torpedo hitting the Nixie and having to be replaced.

I also found Nixie to be unsatisfatory uneffective, so i did some testing on this matter and found something interesting :hmm:

After lots of tests it seems, that the Nixie, after spoofing one torpedo (ie when the torpedo comes close to nixie and suddenly disappears) is then no longer effective :huh: It needs to be retracted and then streamed again, and then it is again effective for one torpedo :hmm:

(i am not sure if it needs to be fully retracted or it is enough to partially retract it and stream again, but from what i saw it seems that it needs to be Fully retracted and then streamed to wrok again)

So in my tests, the first torpedo most of the time disappeared because of the nixie.... so if i got a sub firing one torpedo and then after a minute or so two more (like my last test) it worked this way:

1)
nixie streamed
1st torpedo disappears
...
2nd torpedo hits my ship
3rd torpedo hits my ship


2) (now with this "trick")
nixie streamed
1st torpedo disappears
retrieve nixie
stream nixie
2nd torpedo disappears
3rd torpedo hits my ship (because i had no time to retrieve and stream this time :) )


So..because i havent seen this noticed anywhere that you need to do this in order to make the nixie work after it has decoyed a torpedo... might it be a bug? :hmm:
Now either i am dumb OR someone should take a look on the nixie :hmm:

[LuftWolf]

If the Nixie makes a torpedo explode on it... then don't you think it would then be damaged or possibly completely blown away?

So it makes sense that it would have to be retrieved and streamed again in order for it to be effective again.

Especially in an FFG, evasion is your best bet for avoiding torpedoes.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

If the Nixie makes a torpedo explode on it... then don't you think it would then be damaged or possibly completely blown away?

So it makes sense that it would have to be retrieved and streamed again in order for it to be effective again.

Especially in an FFG, evasion is your best bet for avoiding torpedoes.

Hey LW, what did you change so torps won't explode on CMs anymore anyway? Can't we arrange something similar for the torps to explode on the Nixie only?

[LuftWolf]

They do explode on the Nixie in the mod. :)

Amizaur was able to edit the Torphoming doctrine so that it can distinguish between launched CM's and the Nixie. :up:

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

They do explode on the Nixie in the mod. :)

If so, it makes perfect sense he'd have to reel it in and put a new decoy on the string. Can we try to extend the Nixie out only a LITTLE, so as to save some time on this regard?

[Scion]

They do explode on the Nixie in the mod. :)

If so, it makes perfect sense he'd have to reel it in and put a new decoy on the string. Can we try to extend the Nixie out only a LITTLE, so as to save some time on this regard?

But if the nixie is on a shot string the explosion will be closer to OS, increasing the liklihood of damage.


In other thoughts... shouldnt the TA be cut when a torp hits the Nixie? Thats a big bloody explosion near a cable...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

But if the nixie is on a shot string the explosion will be closer to OS, increasing the liklihood of damage.

If there are say 2 torps coming in, I'd prefer 10% damage from each than 1 hitting - against a 4000ton frigate, that hit would be the end of me.

[SeaQueen]

If the Nixie makes a torpedo explode on it... then don't you think it would then be damaged or possibly completely blown away?

Maybe. The catch is that the torpedo need not actually explode on the Nixie. In fact, most probably it won't. Most torpedos have some kind of proximity fuse so that they explode some distance underneath their target. So then it comes down to how likely is the Nixie to be damaged, given that the torpedo exploded distance r away times how likely the torpedo will explode distance r away. That's a lot harder question to answer.

I'm always cautious about damage modelling and saying, "X would happen if..." It's frequently very difficult to say that sort of thing about damage. I mean... really... how do you intelligently model the effects of a massive shockwave, fire and fragmentation on a million different interelated components, under all conditions, some of which are more fragile than others. You really can't. Damage is very squishy and always will be.

[Zerogreat]

I think they're trying to simulate the torpedo hitting the Nixie and having to be replaced.


Yes, i though about this too, it makes perfect sense, but i didnt saw it mentioned anywhere thats why im surprised to find this out :)

[MuscleBob.Buffpants]

Nixie is very small - about a metre long. I doubt whether a torpedo would explode when it was near a Nixie as a magnetic sensor possibly wouldn't detect it. Nixie may be able to generate sufficient magnetic field to defeat a torpedo, but I never recall having to take precautions around a Nixie (no wearing watches etc) that you need to take around ASW torpedoes (the mag prox sensor will destroy a watch).

Why does it take so long to stream a new Nixie? On my old ship, there were two Nixies stowed aft, ready to be deployed if there was a sub in the area.

[MaHuJa]

One detail worth mentioning - in my tests the nixie has only really been effective against torps coming from straight astern; 180 relative +- 5 to 10 degrees. Other than that they seem to always miss it - and turn back around in time to smack me.

Other than that, I'm pretty sure the nixie has taken two or more torps in a row for me without retracting/restreaming - though I wouldn't take an oath on it.


On another note, I'm already hating these guessing games... I'd really like for someone who knows (someone made it, after all) to explain to us how it works.

[Takeda Shingen]

No problems with my Nixie. I have never had to use it consecutively, however.