Death by flooding instead of hull integrity loss?

[Ducimus]

Is it possible to change the zones.cfg to where your boat is considered lost after servere flooding instead of the hull integrity reaching 0%?

[Redwine]

Is it possible to change the zones.cfg to where your boat is considered lost after servere flooding instead of the hull integrity reaching 0%?

It happens to me often. :huh:

May be due to a modified zones files...... :hmm: if i am not wrong i am using a modified one, i downloaded from some place.... i cant remember from where or from who. :hmm:

But, yes, y was killed by flooding some times, it kills the crew on that compartement and later kills everybody.

:up:

[Stary Wuj]

IMHO Hollywood Mod is good solution, best I know for
damage model.

Best Regards

Stary Wuj

[Gammel]

there´re interesting notes in the en.menu.txt file:

415=Quarters destroyed!
416=Compartment destroyed!
417=Not enough officers! Go to barracks.
418=Not enough petty-officers! Go to barracks.
419=Not enough sailors! Go to barracks.
420=Too many officers! Go to barracks.
421=Too many petty-officers! Go to barracks.
422=Too many sailors! Go to barracks.

423=Damage Control
424=Submerged Attack
425=Submerged Cruise Mode
426=Surface Attack
427=Surface Cruise Mode
428=Surface Anti-Air Cruise Mode

380=Quarters flooded!
381=Compartment flooded!

have a look at entrys 416, 417 and 380 381...

one i had an interesting game malfunction due testing of several zones.cfg files.
I wasn´t able to place any crew in a compartment any more and a text box appeared "Compartment destroyed", but no game over screen...
maybe it´s possible to get the game to that behavior anytime but i´ve no idea how to do.

[HEMISENT]

Ducimus,
Gouldjg is the one to ask about damage and flooding as he did the Hollywood mods. Haven't heard from him in a couple weeks.

[Jungman]

one i had an interesting game malfunction due testing of several zones.cfg files.
I wasn´t able to place any crew in a compartment any more and a text box appeared "Compartment destroyed", but no game over screen...
maybe it´s possible to get the game to that behavior anytime but i´ve no idea how to do.

That will happen when using increases HP for the compartments. The game considers the compartment destroyed if the original HP loss has been surpassed.

It does not happen alot. The usual is you cannot place an officer into that compartment, but you can still place crew in there.

Sometimes if you repair the AA guns over and over, they will show as being fixed 100%, but they will not work propperly.

So if you increae the HP for compartments in Zones.cfg, do not go over board or really wierd stuff may happen.

[Gammel]

As always, interesting info, Jungman! Thanks :up:
Did you made any progress with the die hard mod project?
I tried to download that alpha version, but link is death...

[Jungman]

No. I may finish it up some time later. The basic idea is in Hollywood's damage model also. I was playing another game...

I basically just increased the compartment levels HP, and lowered the armor level to compensate. Ala Hollywood mod.

The the most important part to get decent longer drawn out flooding/hull damage is change the submarine.dat file hull armor and hitpoints. This makes the hull damage better. I used roughly double the HP then lowered the armor of the hull in the dat file for the sub.

I think TT tool will change these values for you in 'submarine'.dat file.

You can as I did, change the crew qualification effectivness to get even longer repair times, but I think Teddy Bar up coming new crew 'Effectiveness' Morale mod should do the same I think.

[Gammel]

Hitpoint changing is easy with timetravellers tool, but i didn´t managed to change amor. Guess it´s only possible with a hex editor.

But maybe teddy has managed to create a mod that will solve many of the problems the stock game has. We´ll see. looking very forward to the release of his work.

Thanks again for your help and hints Jungman.

[kptn_kaiserhof]

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[Der Teddy Bar]

Hitpoint changing is easy with timetravellers tool, but i didn´t managed to change amor. Guess it´s only possible with a hex editor.

But maybe teddy has managed to create a mod that will solve many of the problems the stock game has. We´ll see. looking very forward to the release of his work.

Thanks again for your help and hints Jungman.
I missed this thread....

The armour for a IIa is 22, for a VIIc & IX 25. I can change the values, but, to be honest, apart from the screwed up repair times, the depth charge damage from the begining looked good, it was just that 2 seconds later it was repaired :damn:

I would like more focus put in looking harder at trying to find the value that controls the repair times.

[VonHelsching]

Is it possible to change the zones.cfg to where your boat is considered lost after servere flooding instead of the hull integrity reaching 0%?

I missed this thread too.

Yes, I think this may be possible. Armour can be raised, and flooding rates can be tweaked. But why would you want to do that?

[kptn_kaiserhof]

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[Der Teddy Bar]

what tool is that tt sh3 minitweaker???
No, a NYGM tool.

Again, I feel that this is the wrong approach. There are too many dependants/interlinked items on this value.

[Jungman]

Changing the Hitpoints and armour of your Uboat will result in odd things happening. Small changes do not hurt, but it really does lead to bugs.

There are other work around ways to increase repair time, such as changing the effeciency of a compartment, crew qualification effects.

Maybe give even the regular seaman a qualification, the adjust how many it takes to cause a compartment to be repaired.

Unless one can find the hard coded values to change, using round about ways to get 30 minutes repairs via 'balance' invariably lead to other undesirable buggy behavior.

Teddy Bar is correct on this. It is one reason why I quite working on that approach to extend repair times (changing hitpoints and armor of the compartments and submarine hull value).

[VonHelsching]

I agree about the HPs and armor. Probably the only way would be to reduce repair crew efficiency.

Another idea might be to limit the actual number of persons allowed in the "damage compartment". Say 2 to 3. But if someone has a "repair" officer and one petty ofricer with the same qual, we are already more than 50%.

[Jungman]

One idea that was worked on was give the hull more hitpoints then lower the armor. This will keep you Boat hull from giving out so quickly, and still allow surface damage and DC to affect you. But I would not go more the 2x over stock.

Next change the required amount of crew in a given compartment to make it even work. This is where the problem can occur.

It goes by the raw number, not the unique compartment. So if the repair station has room for 10 men, all compartments with 10 men will be affected. If you tend to use the same Uboat, it is not such a problem.

Raising the comparment hitpoints is bad. If you get hit alot, and it gets repaired, the game keeps a running count total of the damage and thinks the station is destroyed when it is not -leading to none function and not being able to place an officer in that compartment. Bad stuff that is not readily apparent until several damage repairs. So I keep the compartment HP the same from now on.

I think by giving ALL crew an ability to have a qualification, morale, and use the rank, plus changes to comapartment numbers (odd "interval" values in basic.cfg or config.) these numbers must be whole integers. Teddy Bar knows about this stuff. I read his work on NYGM. Very cool. :cool:

It has been awhile since I messed with that stuff. The morale mod I thought may have enabled longer repair times.

I could take a look at a better made real beta of Die Hard Mod just for the VII Uboot, the one Alpha was nice, but only at the start..later in game odd things would happen.

I was going to improve it, but life knocks on the door and a few other games I was playing.

There is alot that can be done. I achieved long flooding repair times by trying to balance those two forces out..very difficult, but can be done more or less. Ask Hollywood's goudjd about what a mess it can be. :dead:

[gouldjg]

I have to agree with what has been said here.

There were always brick walls hitting us. I remember the excitement about jungmans discoveries only to later discover my engines run of the same tweaks as the repair station.

Again I concur about some of the odd things when changing too steeply in the zones and original hp/armour levels.

We found middle grounds but they were never truly the be all and end all and real life took over for a while.

I was considering messing with morale so that a permanent low was always present and then looking at speeding up certain areas via TT's tweaking tools. I.e. Men might work a lot slower but this could be nullified as engines were set higher revs blah blah in other files or through the cfg's.

Hmmmmm (Jason starts to think on this one now) needs a bit of maths here.

Actually, lets say I do set a perm low morale, i.e. no raising or dropping or very minute raising and dropping.

What would I need to compensate,

1. Engines = should be easy enough as some have already great skills on this.

2. Crew efficiency at hydro, spotting etc, can be tweaked in sim file or with quals.

3. Torp loading, not sure if that could be compensated via hex editing or again quals.

The question would be to get morale to its lowest level as a perm basis, adjust other stuff to compensate i.e. engine ops and torp loading.

Sit back and see if flooding and repair becomes major deal i.e. good minutes added to times or just allows extra seconds. I think flooding was on a different set of rules than equipment repairs so the low morale may really hit it in certain areas i.e. rest rooms which require repair crews.

Just another theory

I suspect Der Teddy would know what to expect in the repair dep with the lowest morale. I t may not be worth it.

I am sure we will one day crack this nu

[kptn_kaiserhof]

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[Der Teddy Bar]

der teddy bar
what sort of nygm tool do you suggest for modding hull integrety :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:
The one that will be the basis of the NYGM Ship Damage Mod Ver 2

[Observer]

On the crew management side, all of the suggestions have already been included in the NYGM Crew Management Mod. The only other possible area for further improvement is to further reduce the damage control party from 4 members + an officer to only 2 members + an officer. Because of balance issues, the 10 man compartment efficiency can't really be much further reduced without adverse impacts on other types of boats.

Also when messing with morale remember it is very difficult to control the impact without also adjusting (really optimizing) the coefficients. Solver in Excel is the best tool for this task, something which has been done for the NYGM Crew Management Mod. Also remember a specific compartment configuration can be made to optimize a specific type of boat, but will result in odd or buggy behavior in other types of boats. Again, this is a necessary compromise as a part of the the NYGM Crew Management Mod.

[Ducimus]

Heh asked this question awhile ago.

Im surpised it was suddenly bumped a week or so ago.

The primary reason i was wondering bout death by flooding instead of 0 hull intergrity is because i was thinking of how i could maximize the depth charge experience/encounter.

Point being, A DC should rattle crap loose all over the boat.
id like to have more machinery break, or a hatch seal bust loose, or something where you have to fight to keep the boat from sinkning. Good management, and disaster recovery where you have to priortize repair, or do without if its broken beyond repair.

As so far my experience has been one of 3 things (even with hollywood damge mod)
-undamaged
-some flooding
-dead.

I iwsh i could insert ALOT more gameplay inbetween "some flooding" and "dead".

[Tikigod]

Heh asked this question awhile ago.

Im surpised it was suddenly bumped a week or so ago.

The primary reason i was wondering bout death by flooding instead of 0 hull intergrity is because i was thinking of how i could maximize the depth charge experience/encounter.

Point being, A DC should rattle crap loose all over the boat.
id like to have more machinery break, or a hatch seal bust loose, or something where you have to fight to keep the boat from sinkning. Good management, and disaster recovery where you have to priortize repair, or do without if its broken beyond repair.

As so far my experience has been one of 3 things (even with hollywood damge mod)
-undamaged
-some flooding
-dead.

I wish i could insert ALOT more gameplay inbetween "some flooding" and "dead".

I agree....the sim needs new models:

pump rates: a multiplying effect based on how many are actually running: various bilge pumps in front and back locations that can have failures...or require repairs.....if say two fail in front out of 4 the amount of water removed from boat is halved in the front etc....there needs to be a flow rate for both water entering and water leaving the boat

leaks based on hull integrity: the ship needs to leak. aces of deep had this sh3 does not...the more rocked by depth charges in game the more your hull integrity should deplete causing leaks...... your sub never continuously leaks based on this hull integrity number....if repaired the pumps always goes to an off state or waterproof state which no water seems to ever enter sub unless you take another impact that causes more damage. aces model was pretty sweet at this...I remember sitting on the bottom watching my o2 levels deplete while praising my pumps for removing the water from flooding...so that I could be positively bouyant again....I also remember sitting on bottom and damning the damaged pumps for not removing the water...and eventually running out of O2 or by drowning by continuous leaks...

also, the deeper I go with more pressure on the outside pushing in I want to see more leaking based on the hull integrity value.....if I have 100% integrity and I am at 200 meters I want to see leaking.....if I am damaged I definately want to see flooding at this point...this way I need to climb to a shallower depth to ease the pressure off of the weakened hull.....hulls can only be repaired in port...so my boat should leak and keep me from diving deeper until I get docked and repaired...flooding on the other hand at least minor flooding should be repaired by the crew while underway

flooding: flooding is a result of more watering entering the boat than leaving the boat....this is caused by a) pumps being overwhelemd by major damage....b) pumps failing to pump average leaks over a long period of time....

because of fact there ar eno leaks your pumps in sh3 are never really needed....unless you are repairing damage.....once the damage is repaired the pumps go back to an off state....and your ship is like new even though hull integrity is 20%

if they fixed this model so that the ship leaked based on hull integrity then you would continuously need pumps for the rest of the patrol.....you actually would become dependent on them like in the real world with real boats....you are always bilging water even with a 100% integrity in a real boat...this goes moreso for a boat that travels completely underwater....even today's nuclear subs leak...you will never find a sub that doesn't leak.....everything needs to revolve around the pumps

I would like to see:

1)compartments that manually can be open and closed to prevent other compartments from flooding....the deeper I go the harder it should be to control flooding//.there are hulls and bulkheads...hulls should be able to hold x amount of pressure back while bulkheads should prevent y amount...

2) water that actually damages equipment based on water height per compartment....if I close a compartment and I see flooding is about to reach the radio I should be able to open another compartment tempoarly to lower the levels and give time for the pumps to pump....I should be able to dive shallower to give time to allow the pumps to pump....

3) equipment that can't be repaired unless water level is lower then a certain height.....so theri should be some sort of repair ceiling based on water height

4) multiple pumps and pumps that fail....pumps should be located in historically accurate areas and should pump water from their locations not flooding in general....if I have flooding in the forward compartment and my forward pump fails I dont want my rear compartment pump fixing it unless I can bail the water, or manuever the ship to send water to it... etc .

5) 2 flow rates....a value representing water/sec entering each compartment based on damage....a value representing water/sec being pumped out of the boat....the deeper i go the the amount entering should be greater then amount leaving eventually over time or increased with damage.......this will allow me to dive shallower to increase my reapair times and give time for the pumps to remove water as the ship continues to flood....

6) a multiplier that would efffect the above rates a)damage multiplies water entering ...everyutime i get hit i should get multiples of this value.....the deeper I am the stronger the multiple....b) amount of pumps running multplies amount of water leaving the boat. less amount of pumps runnign the less amount of wate rI cna pump out per minute....

7) types of flooding: repairable flooding, critical flooding (non repairable) forcing you to surface or die, leaking inversly related to hull integrity value....and pumps that help buffer the lower ends of this value.....by helping you fight the leaks and flooding

As for temporarily fixing sh3 in its current state I suggest using Hollywood Advanced...you mentioned hollywood mod but didn't say what version....are you using the regular RUB version? since RUB there has been a new version called Hollywood Advanced....it extends the repair time to longer intervals so stuff stays broken for longer than a few minutes...this gives you a somewhat fighing feel you might be looking for.......I have had longer repair times since isntalling this but haven't had hours or days of repair times like the readme suggests but, then again I haven't had too much damage in my patrols since installing....at least not at critical levels....so you might want to give it a try.....

[The Noob]

I hope someday we can fix the damadge model!But please make a GW and NON-GW version of it!

(I know i look far into the Future!)

[Der Teddy Bar]

I hope someday we can fix the damadge model!But please make a GW and NON-GW version of it!

(I know i look far into the Future!)
It is certain that the damage model will never be 'fixed'. The best we can hope for is bandaids...

[gouldjg]

Was about to say the same.

As I don’t have access to sh3 at the moment but I was wondering what would happen if the damage control could be set to only operate at surface.

I know you could change fatigue times for engine room etc surface non-surface.

Most rooms will still have crew-doing repairs at a lower rate except the rest areas which can only be repaired by damage control team.

The model and zones cfg could be tweaked to take advantage of that fact.

;comp 11 repair station
RegularFactor110=
RegularFactor111=
SpecificFactor110=
SpecificFactor111=
BadWeather11=0

Set a severe instant and continuous drain on crew energy when doing repairs below surface. Not a perfect option but it all depend on the results you get and your willingness to use your imagination.

In game play you would have the rest areas set so that a critical hit would cause severe flooding. As soon as your men attempt to tackle the repair they are bashed about, soaked and panic (shock factor caused by critical hit was always a possibility in real life).

The game setting applied will drain their energy so rapidly thus making them unable to keep up with flooding in the rest areas and actually too tired to help in other areas.

I was also toying with the idea of connecting some other sub systems to the rest areas so as more stuff becomes problematic. (never really tested that part though.

You will get prolonged repairs but will die through flooding or crushing most of the times.

It all depends on that balance.


This was going to be one of my projects but I got sidetracked into looking at coef values.

In the next month or so and depending how adept we get at using random folders, this could be added as a chance factor.

The problem has always been that a modder could only supply a damage model to suit the majority a kinda middle ground. Those who knew how, have always tweaked to suit themselves.

Once random becomes established in this game, we can make different models to occur randomly and have those one of treats.

Well that’s my idea anyway.

[VonHelsching]

As so far my experience has been one of 3 things (even with hollywood damge mod)
-undamaged
-some flooding
-dead.

I iwsh i could insert ALOT more gameplay inbetween "some flooding" and "dead".

The current "Advanced Holywood Damage" seems to be a good "compromise" of damage settings. It has offered a lot of intense moments, including heavy flooding (uboat leaning backwards / forward etc.). I think it is pretty much balanced. I wouldn't remove demage (HP, armor); a little bit more flooding *might* be worth it, though.

Regarding the dead, IIRC there has been a lot of effort to increase the dead / wounded, but it seems that there is just a thin red line between unbreakable iron-men and mass slaughter.

[The Noob]

It is certain that the damage model will never be 'fixed'. The best we can hope for is bandaids...

AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!