LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #6: CAPTOR

[LuftWolf]

Should I replace the 1000lbs airdropped mine on the P-3 with the CAPTOR encapselated torpedo?

This weapon is basically a mine that can be airdropped that is equipped with a Mk46 torpedo.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/mk60.htm

Note, this is different than the non-airdropped mine that fires a Mk46, which we hope to have included soon in the LWAMI Mod.

Also, keep in mind the range of the mine's seeker would be reasonably limited, but if it fired you'd be in serious trouble. :yep:

[TLAM Strike]

Oh yea! I've been waiting for these babies to be in DW for a long time! :up:

[Furia]

Yeah, absolutely.
No sense using outdated technology when actual mines are more advanced.

[drEaPer]

Since I _never_ ever used a mine excpet for a mission trigger, I support that idea. Just make it realistic, so its an anti sub weapon only, and not killing merchants by accident.

[Deathblow]

I wonder what type of doctrine would it have to have in order to launch on enemies and enemies only.

You'll probably have to give it a passive sonar sensor with doctrine instructions to classify and launch on enemy signitures only. How the AI handles sonar classification is a mystery to me.

[OlegM]

Couple notes and considerations:

a) I actually love mines :D I may be in minority but hey.

b) Anyway, since P3 has two types of mines available, I think it would be OK if you swap one type for Captor

c) LW pay *attention* - but actually I think 1000 lb type in game is better, more powerful and modern. 2000 lb is older type. I am posting from my laptop and don't have DW handy to actually check this (posting from memory) but be sure to check this out. If I am right, then I think you should keep newer and better mine (1000 lb IIRC) and throw old 2000 lb out.

O.

[LuftWolf]

I wonder what type of doctrine would it have to have in order to launch on enemies and enemies only.

You'll probably have to give it a passive sonar sensor with doctrine instructions to classify and launch on enemy signitures only. How the AI handles sonar classification is a mystery to me.

That could be done easily I believe, but as I see it now, it will fire on all contacts that are detected by their seeker. You have to be careful when you use them. :up:

There is still a bit more research to be done for final implimentation, but at this point I see the mines using a visual sensor like the other mines, but with a longer ranged sensor.

[LuftWolf]

c) LW pay *attention* - but actually I think 1000 lb type in game is better, more powerful and modern. 2000 lb is older type. I am posting from my laptop and don't have DW handy to actually check this (posting from memory) but be sure to check this out. If I am right, then I think you should keep newer and better mine (1000 lb IIRC) and throw old 2000 lb out.

That may be the case, but as things stand now in the database, the 2000lbs has the same sensor as the 1000lbs, a deeper depth, and of course a bigger warhead, so it is the superior mine.

So the 1000lbs looks like the one to swap out.

[TLAM Strike]

LW Could you make a new MK46 that targets only submarines to make a more realistic CAPTOR. Or does one of the 46s do that ?already?

[LuftWolf]

LW Could you make a new MK46 that targets only submarines to make a more realistic CAPTOR. Or does one of the 46s do that ?already?

I specifically took that weapon out.

There is no weapon that I know of that can selectively track submarines as opposed to any other object that gives an active sonar return.

We could control it in the doctrine, but what I will do instead perhaps is just limit the seeker so that it won't detect ships on the surface if laid deep enough, but if the Mk46 gets fired, its going to do its thing as if it were any other Mk46.

This is a weapon that has implications on gamebalance, I'm not going to make it any easier to avoid Blue on Blue. If you want to drop one of these, make sure there isn't much around. :know:

[TLAM Strike]

My point is that the CAPTOR only fires on hostile submarines based on their signature IRL (of course IRL you rarly have two of the same subs on diffrent sides except for export boats). If the weapon can't target surface ships the AI can't fire it at them. The TEST-71s (one of the three) can only be fired at subs but can still track surface ships, find out how it does that and you got the setup for the CAPTOR torpedo.

[Deathblow]

What about giving the mine a ASW rating of 4 and everything else (ASuW, recon, strike) a rating of zero. Would that keep it from firing on surface ships? Or does it make no difference to the AI behavior?

[MuscleBob.Buffpants]

Mk 46 mod 4 will only go after submarines as the ceiling is hard coded to 50' - too deep for a ship, they stop seeking if they go above 50'.

mod 5 version has a shallow water capacity, that appears to be the model in the game as it will attack targets shallower than 50'.

Is it possible to have the passive seeker on the mine (the Mk46) ignore targets that are less than 50' deep? If it ignores shallow targets, it shouldn't trigger if merchant/surface vessel passes it.

Or do I just not understand the game engine enough?

[LuftWolf]

All of these things are possible.

It's a matter of how we want the weapon to work and what would be best for gameplay in terms of modelling it. :)

[drEaPer]

Since this is your realism mod, we should already know the answer. :)

FAS sais (mentioned above, just quoting directly):


Mine Mk 60 is a sophisticated anti-submarine warfare (ASW) moored mine which is designed to detect and classify submarines and release a modified Torpedo Mk 46 to acquire and attack submerged targets only
[...]
The mine utilizes an influence firing device and is able to classify passing submarines. Its acoustic detection system is designed to seek hostile submarines, ignoring surface craft and friendly submarine acoustic signatures.

[LuftWolf]

There is also a fair bit of sorting through the propaganda... ;)

This weapon system has the potential to be very powerful and make the airdale vs. bubblehead a bit different, so I want to make sure I'm not going with the "naval contractor brochure" version of the weapon.

In any case, the range at which the acoustic sensors could classify a slow moving submarine would probably be very short, something along the lines of a DIFAR or maybe VLAD, so I think we could include it's full capability along these lines and not break anything for gameplay. :)

[XabbaRus]

P-3C doesn't carry CAPTOR though.

Not according to www.fas.org or www.globalsecurity.org though it might have been able to at some time.

[LuftWolf]

P-3C doesn't carry CAPTOR though.

Not according to www.fas.org or www.globalsecurity.org though it might have been able to at some time.

I'm not going to let that spoil our fun. :up:

I always see DW happening not right this second, but at some mix of times or in the near future. That gives us the best frame of mind to make the game as interesting as possible. :)

[TLAM Strike]

P-3C doesn't carry CAPTOR though.

Not according to www.fas.org or www.globalsecurity.org though it might have been able to at some time.
Right because the Navy uses the Lockheed L-188 Electra for its mining operations...
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/9547/captor24uy.jpg

[OneShot]

Well the P-3 definitly is able to carry it : "The aircraft can carry a variety of weapons internally and on wing pylons, such as the Harpoon anti-surfacemissile, the MK-50 torpedo and the MK-60 mine."

- http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/p-3.htm
- http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/p-3.htm

Cheers
OS

[Furia]

it may not be the FAS or Global Security but on the Orion Warrior page the Mk-60 is listed as one of the weapons of the P-3 and I give Smuok as much credit as I give to FAS on this.
Actually FAS and Global security do not exclude the use of the Mk-60 but simple state that the Orion can carry a wide array of weapons including such and such..
The MK-60 is the most advanced ASW mine and it is designed to be deleivered by Air or Subamrine. I see no reason why the P-3C cannot carry them.
I would vouch for having it on DW unless our Bubblehead friends feel unconfident to have to face real type weapons and human manned platforms delivering them :arrgh!:

[XabbaRus]

I never read the article. Just went straight to the spec sheet at the bottom of the page listing weapons and listed weapons didn't mention the MK-60. Sorry if I caused offence.

However according to this http://www.exwar.org/Htm/ConceptDocs/Navy_USMC/MWP4thEd/appendix_e.htm

CAPTOR was removed from the inventory in FY02 that report is from here: http://www.navy.mil/palib/cno/n75/Htm/4000.htm

By all means include it just my quick look showed the P-3 didn't carry it...
wow.