Not Your Grand Mothers RUB 1.45 Campaign Mod - Feedback

[Der Teddy Bar]

Guys,
I am hoping to get some feedback regarding the speeds of various ships that you encounted.

I am interested in how much variation and highest and lowest speed per type of ship.

Was the variation if any, enough or were the speeds too simular?

Thanks in advance.

[HEMISENT]

Teddy Bar.
Just downloaded this looking forward to giving it a go just as soon as I iron out some settings relating to the DD pinpoint drop thread.
Really want to get back to playing the game again.
Thanks a bunch....more later.

[CCIP]

So far I can't comment much, though it was interesting to meet a slow-travelling DD patrol (whom I nearly confused for a merchant) and a 10kt convoy.

There's a thread in WaW, though, where one of the members is very critical of the convoy speed changes, saying that there is no way a convoy's speed should realistically vary by more than 1kt either way :-?

[Der Teddy Bar]

So far I can't comment much, though it was interesting to meet a slow-travelling DD patrol (whom I nearly confused for a merchant) and a 10kt convoy.

There's a thread in WaW, though, where one of the members is very critical of the convoy speed changes, saying that there is no way a convoy's speed should realistically vary by more than 1kt either way :-? :D For F@%& Sake I hope you told him it was a proof of concept edition and that contrsuctive input is always appreciated and that he is always welcome to contribute instead of hiding away sprouting words of wisdom :roll:

Tell him, realistically sea state should affect the boats/convoys speed, but it doesn't.

[CCIP]

I've encouraged him to contact you on this, myself. Well, here's the latest post to note...

In the world of reality. A 10+ ship Convoy can not just change course and speed willy-nilly. Everything has to be determined before departure.
Course and route determined by the latest Naval intelligence reports of U-Boat positions. or suspected positions. (Use of the Random radius feature in the editor)
Speed was pretty much rigid dependant on the slowest ship in the group. All speed settings were set around this ship. In the event that ship drops out due to damage or sinking. The next slowest ships' speed was taken. (All of which were in the front rows. Faster ships being placed at the rear of rows and columns.)

Aggressive manoeuvres at sea while under attack, or suspected attack were predictable and orderly. (based on crews aptitude and experience. These men while brave and courageous were NOT military men with a common training regime.)
You can not just decide to make a turning manoeuvre on a whim, when you can have upto 5 ships in a column, and upto 10 columns. from 300m to 900m apart.

In the event of a severe attack, the Convoy Commodore could issue dispersion orders, where each ship fends for itself on its alternative course. Set prior to departure. Or rendezvous at a preset location placed along the pre-planed route at various intervals. Which of course is not modelled in SH3, much to my dismay.

In the game, Convoy behaviour is more rigid than anyone would like. But not too rigid that it doesn't fall outside the realms of believability. On the most part.

A 1kt separation either way at certain waypoints. (Not every other waypoint) i could live with, but having 2 or more knot discrepancy over a waypoint that could be hundreds of kms long is outrageous to the point of absurdity

[Marhkimov]

When someone puts it that way, it's hard to argue against it...


Unless of course you want to say that these "sporadic" speed changes are made for the sake of gameplay, with less emphasis on realism. As far as I am concerned, gameplay is #1 while realism must take a sidestep.

We should accept that a lot of things in SH3 are not the way they are in real life, but that is due only to the limitations of a videogame; an imperfect simulator. So in that regard there may be unreal discrepancies between SH3 and reality, but that should be the way to go, rather than having a realistic but unenjoyable game.

And if I am not mistaken, I think Der Teddy Bar's primary intention was to improve gameplay with this mod, at a secondary cost of losing a little bit of realism. I am totally fine with that.



As a u-boat kaleun, our only task is to locate the convoy, and sink it. And with stock SH3 settings, that is way too easy to do.

So if you haven't already guessed it by now, I completely agree with Der Teddy Bar's sporadic speed changes, no matter how uncommon this may have been done in real life. Now, locating a convoy in SH3 should prove to have an increased degree of uncertainty and difficulty. :up:

I hope some will agree with me...

[CCIP]

Personally, I keep saying that you have to keep in mind that you're not playing a strategy game here, but a tactical simulator. And one of the big problems is, as Teddy says, is the lack of uncertainty.

To me, the problem is not that convoys move too fast or slow, or with too little or too much speed variation. The problem is that the convoy reports are too easy to follow up on, and convoys are very easy to 'stick' with once you get a fix on their position - because the game's report system and navigation are always unerringly accurate.

To me, this is a decent tradeoff. But it might be worth making the variations less extreme for the convoys, perhaps.

[caspofungin]

what about the improved convoys concept of zigzags -- taken to an extreme? rather than have a variation in speed, have variability in course?

then again, why change things from what they are? as teddy bar said, this is a proof of concept. let's give it a try, see the effect on gameplay, then make suggestions....

[CCIP]

I think the zig-zags as they are now are already about as extreme as would be, well, sane. :yep:

I think the speed variation is neccesary. The question is, of course, "how much".

[Marhkimov]

Ok, that's always a valid question... How much?

[Jungman]

Most ships in the stock game for a given ship I can guess immediately without measure.

"C2 slow", 6 knots exact every time. Boring.
"C2 medium", 9 knots -sound familiar?

We need some more random variation in speed to make the manual TDC work while.

[Der Teddy Bar]

I have won no friends with this reply... a bit rushed...

The variations in speed from waypoint to waypoint, is just too erratic, going from 6 kts at one segment, to 9kts at another.
I cannot see an issue with this. Currently in SHIII even with manual TDC it is simply a matter of point and shoot. It is so easy that I have a 99% hit rate at 100%. No merchant, escort & warship is affected by sea state. But if we allow ourselves to think outside the square, we might consider that the ship has some engine problem where they had to slow down, or they have speed up as they are behind scheduale or want to miss the oncoming storm...


Even taking into account weather (Which is already modelled. The rougher the weather, the more it impacts speed.) The speed variations is just too large. Even for realities sake.
This is incorrect. Only the player's u-boat is slightly affected by the sea state. Any merchant, escort & warship can travel at maximum speed in the worst weather conditions. Easily tested in a custom mission, set up a ship to go in a square, apart from the corners, the ship will maintain the specified speed regardless of the weather. If you had read my review you would have seen this.

We again come back to the fact that merchant, escort & warship are not affected by the sea state and can travel at maximum speed in the worst weather conditions. In WWII convoys were often slowed through bad weather.

A Convoy could ONLY travel as fast as the slowest in the group But, the slowest in the convoy had to be able to do several knots better than specified convoy speed. That is, if the convoy was set at 7 knots, then the ship had to do at 9-10 knots. A ship that could only do 7 knots was not allowed in the convoy.



In the game, Convoy behaviour is more rigid than anyone would like. But not too rigid that it doesn't fall outside the realms of believability. On the most part.
I feel this is not true. As has been pointed out by other members, you can take the reported speed etc as gospol. However in real life, there are too many instances of several u-boats loosing a 'whole' convoy in bad weather or after being forced to submerge. Why? No pinpoint speed or exact course, an enemy that would change course to shake off a u-boat. Now if WWII convoys were anything like SHIII they would never have lost a convoy, ever.

In WWII convoys could and would change course by hundreds of miles if a u-boat/s were suspected of being in the area. They would try and loose an attacker at the earliest practical time, considereing such things as letting everyone know and the like. This does not happen in SHIII.

can't see past your nose because the weather is so bad? Ha, who cares, we will use the satillite navigation system, accurate down to about 10 metres.

When weighing up the 'erratic' speed changes as compared to steady as she goes at 7 knots, not matter what the sea state, with convoy reports being precise to the knot and direction, surely you would have to agree that the 'erratic' waypoints variations makes for a more realistic experience.

The first release is a proof of concept and to attain feedback that it all appears to work. The next version will be more surgical where the Bismark and the likes are not modified. Convoy wise, 2 knots either side is not too 'erratic' or radical when one considers the points I have made. And really, is it such a hard thing to come to terms with a convoy going from 6 knots to 9 knots?

I can understand some find comfort & safety in knowing a convoy and/or a ships speed. It allows for a more successful experience.

[caspofungin]

why not give convoys a varied, constant speed (ie some at 7, some at 11, some at 14) then, if possible, get rid of the speed section in a contact report?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

why not give convoys a varied, constant speed (ie some at 7, some at 11, some at 14) then, if possible, get rid of the speed section in a contact report?

I like that idea Caspofungin! At the very least, if unable to eliminate the target speed in the contact report... maybe it could be substituted with "unknown."
:ping:

[Der Teddy Bar]

why not give convoys a varied, constant speed (ie some at 7, some at 11, some at 14) then, if possible, get rid of the speed section in a contact report?
There are a few flaws in the application of what is a good suggestion :up:


First issue is the slowest ship in that convoy. A lot of work would have to be done to ensure that each convoy had only the appropriate ships.

The second issue is that I see a convoy with no small merchants, so it must be going 11 knots or something like that.

The third issue comes back to the point N shoot. It does not matter how fast something is going, as long as you know. Then they are all sitting ducks. But you say, once I have worked this out then it the same thing, well yes, but at least I had to work it out and in doing so I could make a mistake.

The fourth issue is that after guessing or calculating the convoys speed, if it never changes then the next time I encounter the same convoy after catching up again it is simply point N shoot.

The fifth issue is while we can edit stuff out etc, it is not to say that it will not cause crashes. Just a consideration.

[Observer]

I'm not sure it's possible to get rid of speed in the contact report. Maybe someone can figure it out. I don't see small merchants as an issue. It's easy to bump the speed up high enough to be able to keep up with an 11 kt convoy. These merchant ships do after all just represent generic classes of ships.

[Switchzz]

Why not remove the box around reported convoys and just have us find the convoy with the grid number that is given. With a grid number the direction of travel it should make finding the convoy in a grid a lot harder but not impossible you have its general location but not exact location like we do now with the little boxes. This is what I am looking for.

[baxter]

I think the speed changes would be a good way to introduce some additional uncertainty. I remember when I first started playing with Improved Convoys and started encountering zig-zagging convoys...it made the whole process a lot more interesting and realistic. I think the same thing applies here, the net result will be a more realistic tactical experience. I'll be very interested in trying this when it becomes available.

[The Avon Lady]

Why not remove the box around reported convoys and just have us find the convoy with the grid number that is given
I'm guessing that realistically, whoever spotted that convoy had enough information to relay a more accurate position - not just a grid number.

Kriegsmarine Grids were subdivided into even smaller grid. This is not illustrated in the game's map but in real life, I assume this is the 6 character location value that would have been relayed by spotters to BdU.

Correct me if I'm wrong. :88)

[Krupp]

yes, the KM grid system can give pretty accurate locations. Combined with target courses, speeds, sea states and winds, and reports updated every hour (if shadowed by a contact holder U-Boat).

Like we know, the game gives us only approximate location, like "DE 86". So it doesen't represent minor quadrants at all. Should be like "DE 86 52". Every Grid (DE in this example) were divided usually in 81 major quadrants (there were exeptions) which were then divided into 81 minor quadrants. There is a good site about this, but I don't remember it anymore :shifty:

Krupp

[The Avon Lady]

There is a good site about this, but I don't remember it anymore
Uboat.net (http://uboat.net/maps/grid.html)

[rulle34]

why not give convoys a varied, constant speed (ie some at 7, some at 11, some at 14) then, if possible, get rid of the speed section in a contact report?

I think we are soon getting out of hand here. If the purpose is to just make the game harder, then this will be one way to do it. But if we want some kind of realism in this, then we should go for that. A position message always have to consist what it is, course, and speed. All these values are estimated values, but if they are going to do some good, captains made sure the numbers was so accurate they could be. So to my opinion, gladely mess with course and speed, but information should be so accurate it could be for the time the convoy was sighted by another submarine or what else have reported it.

[Krupp]

Sooo, I just had my first encounter with a Grosser cargo and this new exiting feature about random speeds.

During the overhaul I plotted the target 8 times in 40 minutes (5 min intervals). These are not 100% exact values, but they show the difference in target speed pretty well IMO. Range to target stayed between 16000 and 14000 meters.

0 - 5 mins: target travelled 1.2 km -> speed 7.8 knots
5 - 10 mins:0.6 km -> 4 knots
10 -15 mins: 1 km -> 6.5 knots
15 -20 mins: 0.7 km ->4.6 knots
20 - 25 mins: 1.6 km -> 10.5 knots
25 - 30 mins: 1.0 km -> 6.5 knots
30 - 35 mins: 1.2 km -> 7.8 knots
35 - 40 mins: 1.0 km -> 6.5 knots

Travelled distance for the target was about 8 km's during this.

Altho the idea of having random speeds is excellent, I was surprised to see how quickly and short intervals it (speed) actually changes. It gave me an image of drunken captain yanking the telegraph on the bridge of that cargo ship. Perhaps longer times per speed change would suit better? Hard to tell, like I said, this was my first attack against anything with this mod.

Oh, I did a port side double shot with 2 degree cover angle from 700 meters, AOB was around 75 degrees. One hit, one missed her aft (I think). This mod makes attacking more difficult for sure.

Krupp

[Der Teddy Bar]

Krupp,
Thankyou kindly for the feedback. It is most appreciated.

I reqiure more details such as
1. what type of vessel
2. where was the vessel i.e. at grig AN54 heading south, or English Channel
3. how did you calculate the distance and speed.

There could be several reasons for the wild speed variations that you saw..
1. If the ship is aware that you are there is performs a basic zig-zag course. This zig-zag course will take up to 2-3 knots off a ships base speed.

2. Are you saying that you were manually estimating the targets range from over 16 kilometres? If so, I would have to say that the speed variations are a result of errors in distance.

3. You were in a area that has many waypoints, i.e. coming into a port etc

I will start another thread wich will hopefully stay as pure feedback :rotfl: I will elaberate on what data will help make the feedback more reliable.

May I be so bold as to ask if you could use the Weapons Officer in your next report? That is, enable the WO assistance in the realism and he will give you an exact TDC data.

[Krupp]

No problemo.


-Grosser Cargo (mentioned above)
-BF41 / BF 42 area
-asked from my watch officer the range and bearing to closest target. Then I used map tools to draw a line in correct angle to the target and marked it with X. Waited about 5 minutes and repeated. This lasted 40 minutes. It's easy to calculate target speed when you have the time and traveled distance. Edit: done it like this dozens of times with succes. That is to be able to get targets course and speed.

- No, they didn't see my boat, the range was 16000 t0 14000 meters and they can spot me from the range of 12000m at earliest. Edit: and I could see that the AOB was constant compared to my closure to her track. (with 1600x1200 resolution those masts and funnels are easier to figure out).

- drawing the distance with the ruler gives you the same error in all ranges + I zoom the map as close as possible. I was able to calculate the target track (course) pretty close, I could see that when I finished my overhaul and turned to approach.

- several hundred kliks to nearest port (see the location)

- maybe I start another test career with weapon officer help, no trouble at all.

Hope this helps and I will note all attacks from now on for feedback. It was only one attack...

Krupp