Neutrality BUG, by Ubisoft

[Marhkimov]

I was testing 12 neutral Soldati's in a custom mission. Each Soldati had one waypoint, and they were all heading in the same direction. 2 columns of 6, like this:

- - - - - -
- - - - - -

Then, I decided to torpedo this one:

- - - - - -
- - - - - -


Immediately I ordered a crash dive, and as expected, the rest of the Soldati's got pissed at me once they realized that I sunk their buddy. All of them began to approach me, but as I reached 30 meters, I heard gunfire. First machine guns, then cannons, then explosions.

Curious, I hit F12, and I saw that the Soldati's were shooting at each other. Within less than a minute, they were ALL sunk. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM...


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/hockeemaster/SH3%20misc/46a1ea66.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/hockeemaster/SH3%20misc/d7eb143a.jpg


It was hilarious ( :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: ), but thank you ubisoft for yet another horrible bug... :down:

[sergbuto]

That is because AI can not ditinquish between offensive fire and friendly mis-fire.

[Marhkimov]

More specifically though, here's what I see:

Neutral ships will become temporary enemies against whoever shoots at them, so if a neutral ship accidentally shoots at a another neutral ship, the entire neutral nation will then become an enemy with itself... :doh:


The way that ubi has designed the alliance system is flawed. It would be a complete tragedy if someone experienced this while in career mode.

[Pablo]

It would be a complete tragedy if someone experienced this while in career mode.
...or, just another good reason not to shoot at a neutral task force or convoy.... ;)

Pablo

[Marhkimov]

hehe, good point huh?


I tried it again, but this time I didn't sink any them. Instead, I "accidentally" sprayed AA fire at one of the Soldatis.

Same result:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/hockeemaster/SH3%20misc/44c450a5.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/hockeemaster/SH3%20misc/7d2bad5b.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/hockeemaster/SH3%20misc/97d8b868.jpg

[HEMISENT]

In this case it looks like the fog of war just got a whole lot foggier.

[snowsub]

Marhkimov don't you get it, they're all just too terrified of you! :-j
They're rather kill themselves than face the fury :rotfl:

[Marhkimov]

Marhkimov don't you get it, they're all just too terrified of you! :-j
They're rather kill themselves than face the fury :rotfl:
Hahahahaha. :rotfl: :rotfl: Somehow I doubt that...



So I did another test... This time I tried to stay out of their line of fire. Look at the picture. How could anyone have misfired?
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/hockeemaster/SH3%20misc/72a81684.jpg

Yet for some reason, they all went bonkers. This is the same shot, only 15 seconds later...
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a172/hockeemaster/SH3%20misc/148c3454.jpg

[timetraveller]

A most interesting thread. Methinks the AI has some problems. hehe :arrgh!:

TT

[CWorth]

And this coming from a game they are trying to have voted Simulation Of The Year in another thread :roll: :nope:
Most bugged and unfinished simulation of the year maybe :nope:

Ive seen this behavior a few times when in campaign mode and attacking a convoy.The destroyers just start shooting at each other and ignore me. :down:

[CB..]

just a technical question here --perhaps to shed some light on what might be happenning/?

are the neutral DD's all part of the same group or is each individual ship designated as a seperate group----the concept being that this problem might not occur (regarding them blowing each other to hell) if they are designated as a single grouping---especailly if the DD's are assigned as escorts to designated lead destroyer-- if it STILL happens then that's interesting stuff (dunno why right now :hmm: -- but these things quite frequently turn out to be usefull in a completely un related way later on)

it might be possible to edit in another side in the appropiate files perhaps allied that due to the dates never enters the war and use that side as neutral---that's if there is any possibility that each side has different AI routines which judging from this glitch is not improbable--

and as a complete shot in the dark--- thinking sideways in the hope that
it possible that the DEVS built code into the game that they didn't in the end use (but still functions if accessed) there might be specific wolfpack AI routines hidden some where that can be accessed by designating AI subs not as being german (ie;side=2 is that right?) but as side=4 wolfpack

again it's not likely to be true--but that's not important--what matters is that it's likely the Devs will have left some code regarding wolfpack AI somewhere--and it's obviously not the stock german AI

y'know that sort of stuff--never stopped finding things like this in SH2 even right up to the release of SH3 new bit's and bob's were being dug out--

these strange bugs usually are a bit of a clue

[Krupp]

I have noticed this same thing when some time ago I did the "convoy" mission in the marine academy. The smaller escort started shooting the destroyer and sank it. Well simulated....

[hamburger]

@CWorth

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :up:

[Marhkimov]

are the neutral DD's all part of the same group or is each individual ship designated as a seperate group----the concept being that this problem might not occur (regarding them blowing each other to hell) if they are designated as a single grouping---especailly if the DD's are assigned as escorts to designated lead destroyer-- if it STILL happens then that's interesting stuff (dunno why right now :hmm: -- but these things quite frequently turn out to be usefull in a completely un related way later on)
Each DD is an individual group, meaning in this mission there were 12 seperate Soldati groups. Perhaps if they were in the same group, they would not have attacked each other? Or perhaps it will not happen if they are grouped to an enemy destroyer?


it might be possible to edit in another side in the appropiate files perhaps allied that due to the dates never enters the war and use that side as neutral---that's if there is any possibility that each side has different AI routines which judging from this glitch is not improbable--
Hmm, I'm really not sure. I am getting very impatient with Ubi, and I am constantly asking myself "Why did Hell they leave me to fix all of their lousy bugs?! I paid 40 good dollars for a game playable right-out-of-the-box. They never said anything about buying the game, and DESIGNING IT YOURSELF!" :shifty: :shifty: :shifty:

[timetraveller]

Each DD is an individual group, meaning in this mission there were 12 seperate Soldati groups. Perhaps if they were in the same group, they would not have attacked each other? Or perhaps it will not happen if they are grouped to an enemy destroyer?

I'd bet money that this is the reason it's happening. If you grouped them togther in one group, surely the AI wouldn't be that dumb to allow units their own group to attack each other?


Hmm, I'm really not sure. I am getting very impatient with Ubi, and I am constantly asking myself "Why did Hell they leave me to fix all of their lousy bugs?! I paid 40 good dollars for a game playable right-out-of-the-box. They never said anything about buying the game, and DESIGNING IT YOURSELF!" :shifty: :shifty: :shifty:

hehe But think of all the modding fun we are having! :rock: :rock: :rock:

TT

[Marhkimov]

these strange bugs usually are a bit of a clue
I completely agree. It might seem as though ths problem is of no consequence, but there might some light at the end of the tunnel, if you get what I mean... ;)

[Marhkimov]

Each DD is an individual group, meaning in this mission there were 12 seperate Soldati groups. Perhaps if they were in the same group, they would not have attacked each other? Or perhaps it will not happen if they are grouped to an enemy destroyer?

I'd bet money that this is the reason it's happening. If you grouped them togther in one group, surely the AI wouldn't be that dumb to allow units their own group to attack each other?
Yep, I will run a similar test, but with the DDs in a group.




Hmm, I'm really not sure. I am getting very impatient with Ubi, and I am constantly asking myself "Why did Hell they leave me to fix all of their lousy bugs?! I paid 40 good dollars for a game playable right-out-of-the-box. They never said anything about buying the game, and DESIGNING IT YOURSELF!" :shifty: :shifty: :shifty:

hehe But think of all the modding fun we are having! :rock: :rock: :rock:

True, but once upon a time I actually played this game... The key words are, "ONCE UPON A TIME..." ;)

But even though I am not able to fully enjoy my mods or others' mods, a lot of my satisfaction comes from the fact that I can help people to better enjoy their games. :D

[Col7777]

I have thread somewhere on here way back where I had my sub as a neutral so I could witness the behaviour of both sides without being shot at, neither side fired on me, just thought I'd mention it.

[Marhkimov]

I have thread somewhere on here way back where I had my sub as a neutral so I could witness the behaviour of both sides without being shot at, neither side fired on me, just thought I'd mention it.

Hmm... But our problem is more about neutral units performing attacks upon themselves, rather than neutrals getting attacked by hostile units.

But nevertheless, this is all interrelated somehow... :hmm:

[CB..]

ok--- neutral ship attacks other neutral ships not in it's own group when one of those ships is itself attacked by the player----

it doesn't do this UNTILL one of the ships is attacked by the player--(am i right?)

ok---

if something neutral could be added to a convoy--and it only attacked the other convoy vessels after the convoy was attacked by the player this bug could be exploited to create a simulated wolfpack attack--20 merchants and DD's would soon kill of the neutral vessel so it wouldn't get out of hand --and that neutral vessel could be given a low spawn probability to make this random--and who wants neutral convoys--can be worked around of course
very unlikely to work of course but there's summat there--

[Marhkimov]

ok--- neutral ship attacks other neutral ships not in it's own group when one of those ships is itself attacked by the player----

it doesn't do this UNTILL one of the ships is attacked by the player--(am i right?)

ok---

if something neutral could be added to a convoy--and it only attacked the other convoy vessels after the convoy was attacked by the player this bug could be exploited to create a simulated wolfpack attack--20 merchants and DD's would soon kill of the neutral vessel so it wouldn't get out of hand --and that neutral vessel could be given a low spawn probability to make this random--
very unlikely to work of course but there's summat there--

Hmm... I had no idea that this "bug" consisted of a positive aspect, but leave it to CB to set me straight. That's a good idea.

I'll try more some more tests with this in mind...

CB.. maybe you can create a mission of your own so that you can also test your hypothesis? Or if you want, I can mail you my own mission when I get on my computer.

[CB..]

Hmm... I had no idea that this "bug" consisted of a positive aspect, but leave it to CB to set me straight. That's a good idea.

I'll try more some more tests with this in mind...

CB.. maybe you can create a mission of your own so that you can also test your hypothesis? Or if you want, I can mail you my own mission when I get on my computer.

no worries--usually summat positive in most bugs of this type--i don't do a great deal of testing these days (drives me mad i must admit lol)
so i'll leave it to more enthusiastic folks- you have to admit there has to be some sort of situation where this sort of buggy behaviuor would be desirable -especailly with it being triggered by the player :up:

[Marhkimov]

Well, its funny as hell, I can tell you that much... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You really have to see it in order to enjoy it.

[CB..]

well yes and the trick is to think where would i enjoy see-ing this in more realistic gameplay?

for example a daft one i'll admit but there goes---place two neutral DD's in a port----place a neutral battleship just inside max gunnery range out to sea----sneak into the port and sinkone of the neutral DD's--- blam all hell breaks loose as the battleship opens up with everything it's got on the port attempting to sink the other DD--instant artillery barrage--would sure as heck be fun to watch--and scare the pants of the un suspecting player--the BB would soon finish of the other DD leaving the player none the wiser as to what the hell had just happenned--just a dynamic event that even the most anal of realism fanatics would have to admit to enjoying what? :rotfl: :up: if by some miracle this allso worked with neutral shore batteries well then you've got something really special to work with--as you could lose the battleship and just have the shore batteries open up on the surviving neutral DD--get serg' to create an un marked neutral vessel one that is shown in game with an allied flag---(spy ship perhaps)

[Marhkimov]

LOL, you beat me to it...

I was just about to say neutral gun batteries... :hmm: :hmm: