MOst REALISTIC MP settings. Your oppinion pls

[Furia]

Lasts MP games we could see how different oppinion we do have about wich are the appropiate MP settings for a match.
This also made us waste like 15 minutes asking the Host to change this and this.
So this make me to propose here what based on my experience should be the most balanced and realistic settings for this matches.
Basically this is oriented for a match where players are manning one platform per player, that is single station.

Before going into details let me tell you I am a hardcore player, I hate arcade and I love realism to the max.
I have been playing Naval sism since the first Spectrum Silent hunter back in the 80's
I always aim for maximum realism like in Silent Hunter where I always use Manual TDC or 688i Hunter Killer where all was no Auto Crew or Sub Command.
Said this, on my experience I have come to realize that playing DW without NO Autocrew in MP matches, not only does not bring realism but it complicates the game in a way it brings no benefit.
Actual DW Auto crew alone would never give you enough information and in proper time to kill a humam opponent. Maybe with some dumb AI you can but surely against skilled humman you cannot, if you have to wait your Autocrew give you enough data on him you will be dead by then and this is a fact.
I believe Autocrew helps in some cases to keep information and processing flowing while you are cheking other stations.
I basically just play the FFG and on this complex platform this is basically a need. SO while I am manually on the TA defining contacts, I need the EW auto crew to warn me if there is a new threat painting me with a FC radar.
Or if I am shooting a SM-2 against an Air targte, I need the Sonar crew to keep track of the new accoustic data and to tell me if I have a hot buoy os such channel.
This is what happens on a real Ship. The Captain is coordinating all the effort but not micromanaging all stations at the same time.
I manually manage each and every station when I need to refine information, release a weapon or gather extra data but while I am on the acustic station filtereing frecuencies and so, I want my AutoTMA keep ploting of the contacts and my EW crew warn me if a warship just illuminated me.
On my oppinion having the Autocrew in some stations is not a cheat or is going to help me to gather better data on the enemy since actual Autocrew is by far low on perfomance than any average level player, but to keep me warned about new information that appear while I am in other station.
This is particulary important on the FFG where you have more stations than other platforms and where you have to be aware not only of submarine contacts but air contats, surface contacts and EW information and so. Where the Accoustic information could come from 3 different stations and so.
Subs are a bit different on this because while submerged and al slow speed, the Captain basically focus on the Sonar station Having basically all information he needs on this single station.
I know some will surely disagree with me because they usually only drive subs or because they believe that "hardcore" is using the "advanced" player settings that means no Auto Crew. I respect this but this is my oppinion as a hardcore player and a dedicated FFG driver.
Resuming it Autocrew on my oppinion is need in some stations not for doing your work but to keep track of things while you are away on other station. Autocrew does not provide enough accurate and in time data to fight succesfully a capable human opponent but helps to keep track of things while you are in other stations.
For this I propose to use this settings for MP games where one player mans one platform. For multistation games where severl players man one platform I propose NO AUTCREW in any way since players have the time to focus on their station.
This are my proposed settings.
http://menorca.infotelecom.es/~raulurbina/MP1.JPG
http://menorca.infotelecom.es/~raulurbina/MP2.JPG
http://menorca.infotelecom.es/~raulurbina/Mp3.JPG

I have thought about this very carefully before posting this here so please thought about it just one minute before it is wrong because it is not "advanced mode"
Anyway I will surely welcome any oppinions. As I said I basically drive FFG lalthough I have extensive experience on subs in 688i, DW and other sims but for this MP experience on DW I prefer basically to speak for the FFG.

[JamesT73J]

You know, I was just thinking as I read the title "What's good for sub players isn't good for the FFG."

I have the same perspective, I played SC with no autocrew (and play the DW subsea platforms the same way) but the Perry is a different animal. It has far more systems that need monitoring, and as such I think auto settings should completey be at the discretion of the player.

Most people like to play as real as they can, so I don't think it hurts anybody; I certainly would not like to see anything enforced.

[goldorak]

To be honest, the only station that should be on autocrew is tma, on the frigate and on the sub.
Any other autocrew just lowers the realism.
The frigate is made to be played in multistation, I just wonder why so many people are reticent to play multistation on sub/frigate ?
Its more fun and no need to keep any autocrew on.

[Furia]

I would not mind to play the FFG in Multistation provided that:
1. We can gather enough players willing to play FFG Multistation for that MP match (You will be surprised there are not many)
2.Players speak same language and are connected with Voice (Ts, Ventrilo, RW..)
3rd. Players have adequate level of knowledge on the FFG stations and Operations
4rth It is decided that one on the players will be the "captain" and he will take the final decissions instead having arguments about what everybody oppinion of tactics.
For this reason I prefer to play Multistation only on Virtual Fleets where you have all this requirements fullfilled.
Otherwise I play the FFG alone :yep:
it is no realistic that while I am working on a TA solution there are showing 26 Bombers on my radar making 600 knots towards me and I get no clue of it because I am just on the TA station. That is not realism, :arrgh!:

[DivingWind]

Just a thought.You rarely use FFG TMA for tracking ships because surface radar automaticaly tracks them.And for subs you can't track a sub with FFG,it tracks you :D.Obviously there is no time for that,you use active ping to find him fast and attack him even faster! So FFG TMA can be ider on AC or manual control.

[Fandango]

To be honest, the only station that should be on autocrew is tma, on the frigate and on the sub.
Any other autocrew just lowers the realism.
The frigate is made to be played in multistation, I just wonder why so many people are reticent to play multistation on sub/frigate ?
Its more fun and no need to keep any autocrew on.

I agree with Goldorak here. Multistation is the way to go...both FGG AND sub. But I would give the player the chance to choose himself the TMA autocrew setting. I've recently played a multistation with Mahuja on a Seawolf with me manning the TMA (manually) and the weapon station...

[Furia]

Just a thought.You rarely use FFG TMA for tracking ships because surface radar automaticaly tracks them.And for subs you can't track a sub with FFG,it tracks you :D.Obviously there is no time for that,you use active ping to find him fast and attack him even faster! So FFG TMA can be ider on AC or manual control.

Well on the FFG if you want to survive, it is not always that healthy to have your Radar emiting all the way. It is an option but for instance on my case I do not use it quite often, specially if there are subs with SSM missiles around.
Same goes for the active sonar. unless the sub is within the 7 NM range of your Mk-50 torp, it is not healthy to go active :rock:

And about tracking things with the TMA, if a sub is fast (ie evading torpedoes or moving to a specific possition) you can track it, same goes for surface units or data gatheres from your helo sonobuoys launched far away from your ship.
The FFG offers just many options and you just do not drived it like a surfaced submarine.

[DivingWind]

Ofcourse you use towed array or radar to track ships when situation requiers.But in online games mostly there is like dogfight battles.

[OneShot]

Personally since I hardly drive anything besides the P-3 and the Helo, I would vote for the following settings for those two stations :
P-3 :
AC Countermesaures - ON
AC Radar - ON
Helo :
AC Countermeasures - ON
AC Radar - ON
Every other AC OFF.

Reason for this, the AC suck at the most important stations on the Airborne plattforms, means the Accoustics and the TACCO/ATO station. Those need to be handled by a player with judgement because the AI mindlessly marks all contacts on the buoys even if they are of no interest and its settings as far as TACCO/ATO go, well - they can be improved. But by all means, thats my way of playing, and I certainly dont want to force that on anyone. On the flipside, those ACs I listed are those I consider important. When I actually use the Radar, I dont want to spend my time marking contacts on the screen, the AI is more capable there. And as far as CM AC goes, well - the AI does a fairly good job there too, and I have other things on my mind in that situation. Since there is no TMA on either plattform thats not on my list, but my opinion on the aTMA is, that if somebody wants it, let him use it - whenever I drive a boat its one thing I dont want to mess with.

On the other settings I vote for Aircraft Quicklaunch enabled. If the FFG starts with the Helo still onboard it might take ages before its off use.

And as far as Deadplattforms go, well as long as their is the Status screen readily available there is no point in disabling them. The only thing I don't get then is a nice picture of the plattform I just killed, but I still get the info. And dont give me the stuff about finding out what happend yourself. In real life you can actually decide from your Accoustics input or lots of other sensors if you killed the target to a certain degree. You don't have that capability in the game. For example you can very well distinguish between an Active decoy and a moving sub in real life in the game thats a lot harder if not to say impossible, depending on which sensors you have nearby. So either put in all the capabilities you have in real life, then I can live without the Status Screen/Dead plattform showing or do me a favour and leave that option on.

[LuftWolf]

Furia, don't forget that in the LWAMI Mod you have the option of the MK54 to which replaces the Mk46 (same text in the loadout screen however, couldn't change that) which will give you 17km@50kts. :up:

Auto TMA for the subs is not playing Dangerous Waters, its playing Crimson Waters. :down:

I won't play a game with auto TMA for submarines. It essentially takes 2/3 of the tactics used in submarine warfare completely out of the picture. The simulator become a game of mark sonar, wait 5 minutes, set WEPs, and fire. It sucks.

But for learning the simulator and practicing tactics aTMA is very useful and I highly recommend it for beginners where the extra burden of TMA will often break their back. But for MP dives, no no no no no way. :down: :down: :down: :stare:

That having been said, aTMA for the FFG is fine by me, the autonomous torpedo decoys known as OHP FFG's need all the help they can get. :smug:

[XabbaRus]

Actually I disagree that autoTMA takes the tactics out of it, when the autoTMA is like in SC.

Alas DW autoTMA is the super TMA guy so in that respect yes.

I think in contact high waters autoTMA is useful.

I think it is one of those options where it should be up to the player to use or not.

IN MP I try to use manual TMA for the challenge,,,single player I use auto esp as I like to leave the machine.

Auto TMA in FFG I think is a must regardless.

Ultimately I say most should be up to player choice except, "show truth" disabled, and weapon quick launch.

[Furia]

the autonomous torpedo decoys known as OHP FFG's

Hey that is fun :rotfl:

Nice info about the Mk-54, didn't knew that :88)

[Neptunus Rex]

I've never played MP before, (but I'm sure that change in the future.)

Though I can understand the gamer purest in wanting to do it all themselves (obstensively to win), in the real world it's quit different.

For one, the CO does not direct the Fire Control/Tracking Party (at least on submarines. I don't know how skimmer pukes work. :cool: ), the XO runs that so the CO can concentrate on two things: tactical picture, and fighting the ship!

Though I'm sure there are those of you who enjoy running all the stations yourselves, but why? :hmm:

Auto crew will provide enough info for you, as CO, to obtain a good enough picture to determine a course of action. And if neccessary, step in for more detailed info, such as classifying a contact in sonor.

This is princibly the main reason I never went head to head with anyone on Sub Command on the head to head sites. (No autocrew allowed) You can get too wrapped up with one of the other stations and miss something on another one that could be VERY important.

If your interest is being the purest, by all means, have at it. But don't force those of us who don't feel the need to "be everywhere" to do so just to play MP.

I say no restrictions other that "No Show Truth". Let the players choose their own style of play.

I have not played DW yet, (I have found the wife's hiding spot. :up: ) but it would be nice if the game engine supported multiple windows. (Jamie, are you listening? ;) )That way you could keep the tactical display up when you're in Sonar or ESM.

My 2 cents.

[LuftWolf]

Though I'm sure there are those of you who enjoy running all the stations yourselves, but why?

The reasons are simple why I have my preferences for autocrew:

Active Intercept and Radar autocrews On because the stations simply involve marking contacts and the Active Intercept is a station one would have to be at constantly.

Sonar and WEPS off because I can do a much better job than the autocrew.

And auto TMA off because it is "show truth" with a five minute delay and small percentage error.

[LuftWolf]

In terms of the multiscreen support, you can do that if you have more than one computer by linking them over a LAN or the internet and running in multiplayer multistation mode.

[Neptunus Rex]

Though I'm sure there are those of you who enjoy running all the stations yourselves, but why?

The reasons are simple why I have my preferences for autocrew:


You missed my point yet highlighted the same. My question of why was rhetorical. My point was as you stated, "my (personal) preference".

It's a matter of how each wants to play in MP and not forced to play in a particular manner.

My personal preferences are

Auto Crew on for

Sonar - automatic bearing input to TMA.
TMA - automatic solution update to Tactical.
ESM & Radar - same reasons you listed.

Auto Crew off for

Fire Control - I hate the solutions they preset to weapons and I can do a snapshot and horizontal salvo faster and more accurately than auto crew. I also like to manualy steer the weapons so that once the target detects them, when they counter-fire down the weapon bearing, I'm in no danger.

That doesn't mean I don't like to take over sonar or ESM once a contact is found.

[Neptunus Rex]

Whoa :o

What is this Japanese avatar? :hmm:

[LuftWolf]

Chinese... ;)

[Neptunus Rex]

Chinese... ;)

Ok!

Whoa :o

What's with this Chinese avatar! :hmm:

[LuftWolf]

It's a matter of how each wants to play in MP and not forced to play in a particular manner.

My personal preferences are

Auto Crew on for

Sonar - automatic bearing input to TMA.
TMA - automatic solution update to Tactical.
ESM & Radar - same reasons you listed.

The sonar will give bearing input to TMA automatically once you assign a tracker to the contact. This is done once there is a tracker assigned regardless of autocrew or not.

aTMA is a cheat. To put it simply. Which is fine if both players agree to play this way, but it drastically reduces the tactical spectrum available to both players as players of a submarine simulation and the game become much like a flight sim, where you track an opponent on radar and then fire missiles.

I don't play with manual TMA because there is something to prove by doing it, but because the game is simply not a submarine simulator if one uses aTMA, it is a submarine game.

How you play depends on what you want to get out of playing. I have never played a aTMA game that payed off in reward for time playing, but that's just me.

[Neptunus Rex]

I prefer aTMA because it's boring performing it manually. I did it for a time in real life, so it's not that challenging to me.

I prefer the big picture and tactics, not the mechanics.

[LuftWolf]

I did it for a time in real life, so it's not that challenging to me.

Well, then you and Ramius should get together and write us up a TMA tips guide for the community or post some tips over at the CADC. :up: :)

[Furia]

I really have not tested the subs deep on DW but one thing is for sure that the FFG Auto TMA is not really what I would call exact, and this is very easy to test with any map using show true on and off. You would need more than 20 minutes of perfect traking, no maneuvering or interference to get a reasonable solution for the FFG. Sadly for the FFG survival time when near an enemy sub within torpedo range is not that high so AC TMA adds nothing to the cheating or not cheating possibilities. The sub has probably been tracking the FFG long before the FFG has it on range.
I have not really tested DW subs so I cannot tell with certain however I played 688i within Seawolves of course no TMA and against usually a single other 688i, so same detection ranges and on there manual TMA was the difference btw winning or dying.
DW brings another complexity level (Air platforms, Surface and different kind of subs) In some cases more stations.
I believe everyone of us should play the game they way it feels more confortable, all of it is valid but this should not force players to micromanage stations.
So this is the nature of this post, to know your oppinion if you believe realism means micromanaging stations all the way or playing the game like a ship captain focusing on fighting the ship and only manually managing a station when it was need.
I feel your answers are bringing new perspectives on this issue and I appreciate them all.

[Mau]

The only thing I can say, is that I fully agree with Furia.

This is not like a flight sim or an aircraft in real life. You don`t have all the control in front of you all the time.

The Surface ships are not like subs as well. We have the 3 dimensions or field to take care of: Air,Surface and subsurface.

In my navy I have sailors that will report to me when something is happening so that I can take decisions and fight the ship properly.

Why not having the capability that when we change from one station to the other, those ones that we left behind are becoming automatically in AutoTMA (or at least some of those that we are deciding?

[LuftWolf]

Why not having the capability that when we change from one station to the other, those ones that we left behind are becoming automatically in AutoTMA (or at least some of those that we are deciding?

Because the autocrews have a bad habit of completely destroying all my careful work on sonar and TMA... :dead: :damn:

To me, the majority of the autocrews are for learning the game, since a human operator is MUCH better than most, and, as I've said, the aTMA makes the game substantially different in ways that are undesirable for me.

[LuftWolf]

Don't get me wrong, with out the autocrews the game would be essentially inaccessable to most, which is why I'm glad they are there, since they have to be, and also why I'm glad that they can be turned off. :up:

[Fandango]

Well, I think that everybody should play the game as he wishes. At the end of the day, DW caould be even played as some sort of FLeet Command...you leave everything to the "guys" and you just sit and decide what to do...

[goldorak]

Well, I think that everybody should play the game as he wishes. At the end of the day, DW caould be even played as some sort of FLeet Command...you leave everything to the "guys" and you just sit and decide what to do...

Its bit extremist.
I think that the only station which should be discretionary is aTMA.
All the other stations autocrew should be set to off.

[Furia]

So Luftwolf, let me see if I understood you well, you say that you personally do not like to have A TMA in your sub and you prefer thing manually. You recognize that most human players are more competent and able with the TMA or other stations that Auto crew themselves.

So if I understood you well, this is a personal preference way about how yourself like to drive your sub or you consider that a player that plays against you and that uses Autocrew while he is not on that station he is somewhat cheating or have some kind of advcanatge over you who do this all manual?

If for instance I am driving my FFG using A crew in some stations versus you in a sub "all manual" you consider it fair game or not acceptable?

[XabbaRus]

No he's not saying that.

in the FFG I think auto-TMA is easiest as I am so confused by it....

Just auto-TMA is super accurate as it uses the known position, ie it doesn't work it out like a human does.

Thinking about it for MP games I think tha auot crew should be left to the player as it is handy when you are concentrating on sonar for example to be able to leave TMA to do its own thing.

[LuftWolf]

Actually I prefer to play with manual TMA for both players, but if it is an issue of whether the game will happen or not, I like to have the option not to use it, because I would rather play the game with me using manual TMA and the others using aTMA than be forced to use aTMA or not play the game.

I enjoy the game more that way. aTMA is just not fun for me, I'd rather play without it for myself.

I don't really mind if others use it, because they are more predictable in a way when they are using it, and I think I can handle that as a tactical challenge. :arrgh!:

[JoGary(sco)]

Yeh. if someone isusing aTMA they wont get updates as much as the person doing the manual TMA so it can be an advantage if you are good at it. Problem i have is that if you have to do any sort of tuen then the next 2 or 3 baring lines are messed up. Also it near imposable to get demon on a sub. I would like to see the broadband being made so it can detect subs maybe at 80% the range of NB so tou have a much better chance to get DEmon and so speed on a sub. Without speed and only baring lines from a TA there is just to many combinations for a TMA solution. 'Usually you would change speed and course doing maybe 3 legs like this. but with the baring lines being corupted by turns it not a good idea. Best way in DW it to keep course and speed which also means it eisier for the enemy to do TMA on you. Any one else for better BB detection?. NB has to still be the main way of detecting subs but i think BB could be better.

[LuftWolf]

I find it handy to use passive signal strength and knowledge of the various platforms to provide the speed and range estimate, or at least give me a good guess.

[JoGary(sco)]

yeh that can help but it not god enough for my meger TMA skills :-j

[OKO]

here is the setting I use from first days of MP games =>

http://okof4.free.fr/images/DW/DWoptions1.jpg

http://okof4.free.fr/images/DW/DWoptions2.jpg

http://okof4.free.fr/images/DW/DWoptions3.jpg

change from your settings, Furia =>

screen 1 :

1) Aircraft quick launch

As some of my mission have helo aboard and this helo is planned to take off after a certain amount of time, I need to kill the quick launch option.

2) Show link data

of course, here, you need to allow ANY PLAYER to switch on or off the datalink.
You shouldn't force them to see the datalink, if they want to declutter the NAV screen, they couldn't with your setting.
No reason at all to force the datalink here.

3) show dead platforms

I don't see here why you must see dead platforms as soon as they are destroyed.
It's your job to know there is one here and to avoid to engage it, to distinguish, on active, living and dead contacts.
Seeing dead platform is a bit a cheat, and give away some interesting work on the way you built your situationnal awarness, and the way you manage the target queue.
One thing I regret in DW is the fact you could see what you have sunk on the mission status, as soon as you sink it.
But that's not a reason to see on the map every sunk platform.

4) sub active autocrew

This is one really important AC for subs.
On a real submarine, there is always an operator here (as on radar), so there is no reason you coudn't have active intercept LOBS automatically. It's certainly the best thing to avoid torpedoes locked on you, and its a real need.
You shouldn't have to go to intercept screen just to clic on an active reception each time there is one.
And final reason : you need this for TMA on active intercept.
So there is lots of reasons to have this AC, the most important AC for subs (much more important than radar AC of course).

screen 2 :

1) use surface acoustic AC

well ... it's a brain work here, and as all station with brain work, you need to set this to manual.
You just can't let AI work on buoys on MP games, it's your job.

2)use TA auto crew

Here also, it's a brain work
so here also, you must do it yourself if you want to play on the most realistic (and interesting) settings.

3) use surface TMA AC

The aTMA on FFG is an enormous cheat, as the one for subs.
Not only he is able to find you solution in some seconds, but also he could make solutions FAR out of the sheet of paper .........
Anyway, as long as TMA LOBs on EW and on TA will be only 5 miles long, this will be impossible to work on TMA with it.
But that's not a reason to use something FAR more efficient than the real thing.
I personnally only use the TMA on FFG to merge contact (sometimes also to make a solution on active sonar contact), waiting for SCS to solve the 5 miles long LOBs for FFG TMA ...........


4) Use Surface CM autocrew

Here also, you must have someone able to IMMEDIATLY launch CM if a missile is detected : as there is NO warning at all on ESM missile inbound ... (don't ask me why ...) this AC allow you to be warned there is a missile launched at you.
5) use helo senso acoustic AC
Here also you just can't let the AI work on buoys for you.
Or why not also using AC on sub sonars ? there is no difference at all.
But on realistic settings, you must work yourself on buoys as on subs sonars of course.
Buoys are also really easier than sub sonars to use.

screen 3 :

1) Use air acoustic AC

Here, as for helo, you should kill the AC and work yourself on buoys of course !
Using this AC just kill the more interesting thing for aircrafts !
If they don't have to work on buoys to find contact, what is the purpose of the simulation ? just making some circle in the air while letting AI working ? :roll:

So, here is all my changes compared to your settings.
I use them from the first MP games, when i worked on this matter (MP options) and even discuss a lot my choice on beat board (it's certainly quite old now for you to remember ...), and I can assure this give the best games I played.
So, after so many MP games with these settings, I could say there is no best settings than these ones to have interesting and realistic games.

[OKO]

Yeh. if someone isusing aTMA they wont get updates as much as the person doing the manual TMA so it can be an advantage if you are good at it. Problem i have is that if you have to do any sort of tuen then the next 2 or 3 baring lines are messed up.

? you must be joking ?
You will have a solution MUCH SOONER IN ANY CASE with aTMA than with manual work.
With manual TMA you need at least 7 LOBs to start to work on it (if you track contact on single array) when the aTMA is able to find you a magically accurate solution after 2 LOBs only.
That's why you can't use manual TMA on games where others use cheating aTMA, because they will know exactly where you are when you will just have a bearing for them.
In everyway, aTMA is bad =>
1) cheating as it give you very accurate solutions when this is just impossible to do (because aTMA use show truth and not calculation on LOBs)
2) killing the interest of the game, because you rely on a cheat to built your situationnal awarness .......
So there is no hesitation, no choice, no evaluation of the dangerous zone => you just have to follow the cheat.
very poor games ... no fun at all, just pressing buttons ...





Also it near imposable to get demon on a sub. I would like to see the broadband being made so it can detect subs maybe at 80% the range of NB so tou have a much better chance to get DEmon and so speed on a sub.

So you want something unrealistic ...
I disagree with you on this point, I prefer a LOT a real DEMON with real problems, as the one designed.
It's a simulation JoGary, not an arcade game where you set everything for gameplay purpose.
It's hard to get DEMON in DW because it's hard in a real sub.

[Furia]

Hello OKO. I was looking forward to learn about your options since it was you basically who made me think about this post and what would be the most realistic settings.,
Of course as always I respect your oppinion and the reasosn you state for it.
However despite your very well reasoned post you have not answered the thread post.
I have asked about the most REALISTIC settings for this game to make it the most realistic, not the more difficult or cumbersome settings.
Probably being a dedicated FFG player I feel more the need to find out this. On the old times when I was playing 688i with Seawolves, Of course it was ALL with no Autocrew. Usually 1vs1 and with similar capabilities sensors. It was OK and it is still OK because what really mattered was the manual work there.
With DW and specially with the FFG things a bit different.
Most scenarios there is not just 1 FFG vs 1 sub but multiple threats, including air and surface. As you have noticed the FFG uses ALL the function buttons to have access to its stations, actually the FFG has about 12 stations and a total of 24 different screens for different functions by far most than any other DW platfform. A FFG driver not only gathers data from it s own sonar, buoys and towed array but also from the helo buoys. Besides this he has to have a full awareness about what happen around.
My point on this thread is not I want things easy :ping: but I want them realistic.
You can be sure that always before shooting a weapon or enev confirming a contact on the link, I MANUALLY work on that solution. ALWAYS, however when I letf the station I want a basic TMA crew to keep feeding data.
For me FFG A Crew is made of the very simple sailors who will NEVER make me win a combat with just their help.
I have heard repeatedely about A TMA giving information based on TRUE info but this is just not true and so so simple to verify on the FFG (I did) just do it in a map with snekay and maneuvering subs and use true of and ON. It is funny but they never even get close. A TMA only works good with targets that give a strong signal (A TMA does not auto merge data quite well) and in contacts that keep stable course and speed for 10 minutes. NOt many subs offer such opportunities.
Anyway I have to confess on the FFG for me Auto TMA is totally unreliable and I NEVER fire a torp on a solution just generated solely by AUto TMA.
So since A Crew is really not good performing I am forced to work manually on the sonar station, procerss the buoys data, filter the contacts, verify the Towed Array speed, resolve ambiguity contacts, plan the helo route, select wich buoys, manually set the torpedos settings (which is by far more complex than in the Sub belive me).
For me as for you the fun and exciting part of the sim is manually control this. The problem and the realistic concept comes that a FFG Player can simply not win a match on a high threat enviroment against severl human payers if he has not some support from the Autocrew on the stations he is no manually controlling at that time. I considered myself a capable FFG driver and I can assure you this.
Main reason of this is that player awareness during combat has to be divided on so many different stations (did I mentioned the FFG has 24? )that he cannot simply do everything fast enough as a sub driver can do (I know because I have driven subs since many years, specially the 688i) and he is also missing very important data he gets no warning at all.
Let me place you an example. Imagine I have a submarine contact on my buoys and on my TA. so I have to manually determine wich kind of contact with filters, its deep with different buoys and the deep of the TA and determine it speed with the demon. I have to TMA it. After that I have to manually set my torpedo solution on this and fire. Even for a experienced player the minimum time to do this with precission is 7-to 10 minutes totally focusing of 3 screens only.
For a sub player this is also 3 screens (Sonar, TMA and Fire control) but he basically have nothing else to watch.
So far so good, but the problem is that while I am doing this for 10 minutes nobody is watching the rest of the 9 (with a total of 24 substations ;) )stations, some of them critical. I could have a frecuency alert, a new buoy activity, a new air contact on the radar approaching me at 500knts, even a kamikaze ship charging against me, and I would be simply not even aware of this. And this is what I do call NOT REALISTIC
On my oppinion at least the FFG needs some Acrew to keep performing tasks while you are not on the station. NOt for doing the work for me, not for giving me fire solution but for keep track of information while I am doing other stuff.
However I propose you a practical test. You drive an FFG as captain NO AUTOCREW (Well to demonstrate this even better I allow you to use the super efficient Auto TMA :P ) against me for instance on a 688i (NO AUTOCREW of course) and with some possible enemy air asset and maybe some little surface threat. You do all manually and if you survive more than 20 minutes (provided the map is weapons and detection range) I promise I will change all my thinking about this and nominate you more realistic player on the subsim comunity :arrgh!:
Deal?

[XabbaRus]

Yes Auto-TMA is super accurate but it isn't cheating.

But then OKO you know my opinion.

at least 7 LOBS on a single array....

You can do manual TMA with less than that if you want.

[Furia]

Yes Auto-TMA is super accurate but it isn't cheating.

But then OKO you know my opinion.

at least 7 LOBS on a single array....

You can do manual TMA with less than that if you want.

FFG TMA is surely not super accurate and those of you on the Betatesting know better.
Human manned TMA is ALWAYS more accurate than A TMA.

For FFG A TMA draw a solid solution you need a non maneuvering target, making a good speed thus a solid contact and stable for some minutes. Human manned submarines just simply do not offer all this.
Even with surface targets the TMA takes many times to give you a solid solution and you can see the radar contact you have is not even near the TMA solution and we all know that tracking a surface contact is much easier than a sneaky sub

[Bellman]

:lol: We seem to be heading up to a duel here - a challenge has been offered and a glove swiped.:roll:
I am not anxious to be anyones second - an overated and highly dangerous occupation.
Many times the duelists trembling hand results in stray shots causing 'friendly fire' carnage.:dead:

However do we have two mutualy exclusive positions ? The FFG drivers work load mandates ATMA
and no self-respecting bubblehead would be seen dead using ATMA ?:o

Am I missing something here as I would be happy to allow the host to place his little cross in the right-hand
'Use Surface TMA Autocrew' box ? :yep: :hmm:

[Furia]

Well this is not really a Duel. I respect OKO as sub driver and I will never offer such statement of killing him in 20 minutes on a sub vs sub.
My proposal is just a demonstration that the FFG is not as "easy" to control than the sub and that with even A TMA you have no advantage above any human manned sub.
So no duel just a practical demonstration :ping:

[Bellman]

:) OK Furia I did start my post with a ........ :lol: (better :-j )

My point is that we have a dichotomy and the message has already gone home........ I hope. :ping:

Surely there is a simple setting solution, as above ? :hmm:

[OneShot]

Surely there is a simple setting solution, as above ?
The players agree on a setting with which both can live before the game. If one of them needs the aTMA for subs (for example) and the other wont allow it, then either they agree on some sort of compromise or simply can't play with each other.

Whatever solution is brought forward here is purely subjective and dependant upon a lot of factors, like playing style, enviroment (a Virtual Fleet for example) and so on. It would be nice to agree on some sort of setting, but I don't think thatll happen.

And I'm not really in favour of the (polite) name calling over some game feature. Yep, the aTMA "cheats" (maybe ...) and for some people this reduces their enjoyment of the game so they turn it off, but please don't force your beliefs on others. Those discussions somehow remind me of religious discussions, done with the same intensity. How bout backing off, saying ... those are the settings I prefer, if you like them - use them. And if not then do your own thing. Yep I have a post somewhere up in this thread and I explicitly stated what I prefer and why but I won't force them on somebody else. I think the only thing we all agree on is the fact that truth should be off in a MP game, everything else is up for keeps IMHO.

Cheers
OS

[Bellman]

:D Agreed OS - its no big deal -
''I would be happy to allow the host to place his little cross in the right-hand 'Use Surface TMA Autocrew' box''

The downer is spending ''15 minutes'' on it - but it happens. ;)

[LuftWolf]

I think the BEST GAME comes from matches in which sub drivers are doing Manual TMA and FFG drivers are using Auto TMA.

So that is my preference to play, but like I said, if you use aTMA, at least give me the option not to and let me plot manually.

[JoGary(sco)]

? you must be joking ?
You will have a solution MUCH SOONER IN ANY CASE with aTMA than with manual work.
With manual TMA you need at least 7 LOBs to start to work on it (if you track contact on single array) when the aTMA is able to find you a magically accurate solution after 2 LOBs only.

I never explained right what i was meaning. Yes the aTMA gets solutions quicker and doesnt use the TMA data to get it and so it could be called cheating. But once it gets it and you start to add more contacts then it only updated each contact one at a time. I have seen it taking 10min or more to update some contacts. With Manual TMA you can get the TMA when you need it. Right when your torps are near the target. With aTMA you have to wait till it goes through all the other contacs first. If you have a UUV out and there lots of torps in the water i have seen it taking 20min for a update on a target sub. So you could say manual TMA has a advantage here.
Also for FFG i dont mind the aTMA being used. :roll:
So you want something unrealistic ...
I disagree with you on this point, I prefer a LOT a real DEMON with real problems, as the one designed.
It's a simulation JoGary, not an arcade game where you set everything for gameplay purpose.
It's hard to get DEMON in DW because it's hard in a real sub.
I dont know what is realistic or not i was just saying what i would like. Also it may be a simulation but i play it for fun not to train as a sub captain. :hmm: Dont get me wrong if it a choice between realistic or not i will choose the relistic option as long as it still fun. If it was not i wouldnt be playing it and i suspect most people here wouldnt either. Sometimes i think we get too hooked up in realism and forget the main reason we play DW. For Fun. :up:

[goldorak]

I dont know what is realistic or not i was just saying what i would like. Also it may be a simulation but i play it for fun not to train as a sub captain. :hmm: Dont get me wrong if it a choice between realistic or not i will choose the relistic option as long as it still fun. If it was not i wouldnt be playing it and i suspect most people here wouldnt either. Sometimes i think we get too hooked up in realism and forget the main reason we play DW. For Fun. :up:


100 % agree with you.

[Furia]

Here is an excerpt of Dangerous Waters Manual. Last pages of the FFG Chapter.

In here Sonalyst clearly states that Autocrew is by far lower than a human player on speed and quality and in some of the station even with A-Crew you are still required to perform task to complete the work.
I have the idea that A-Crew is designed to help the player to carry on with the workload especially on heavy workload maps with multiple threads.
I think all the confusion comes from the definition of Advanced settings or Novice Settings.
I would not accept a game where the host forces me to use A crew with no chance of manually using that station, however I want A crew to take care of the station while I am in other and I feel the manual of Sonalyst clearly goes on the same line.



FFG AUTOCREW


Below is a recap of all FFG Autocrew functionality. Remember that your
Autocrew is not 100% infallible. Some crewmen are better than others and
in some cases you may be better at a task than he is. In some stations the
Autocrew does everything for you. At other stations you still have tasks to
perform even when the Autocrew is on. These are noted below.

FFG COUNTERMEASURES AUTOCREW


When ON the Countermeasure (CM) Autocrew launches Chaff and flares.
The FFG’s Countermeasure Autocrew is set via the Autocrew slider in the
upper left corner of the Bridge Station.


Your Task: You can still launch CMs yourself and reload the tubes even
when the Bridge Countermeasure Autocrew is on.

FFG ACOUSTIC AUTOCREW


When the Receiver Mode is set to SHIP and buoys are in the water, the
FFG’s Acoustic Autocrew sets hot buoys to Directional mode and marks
contacts. He can only mark contacts in Directional Mode. He cannot change
the Receiver Mode. On the FFG, buoys can be set to Directional mode only
in Display Windows (Grams) A - D.

Your Task: You must place buoys in the water so the Autocrew has
something to process. Since the Acoustic stations defaults to AIR/SHIP
Receiver Mode and the AIR mode occupies Grams A – D, the Autocrew
cannot mark anything until you first set the Receiver Mode to SHIP.
(Contacts can only be marked in Directional and Active mode.) Omni mode
is used only for detecting and classifying contacts. (You must set DICASS
buoys to Active mode yourself. See Training/Sonar School/Sonobuoys and
FFG Stations/Acoustic Station for information on the display window
requirements for setting buoys to Directional and Active modes.)

FFG EW AUTOCREW


The EW Autocrew marks contacts but does not classify. You are prevented
from doing anything in the EW station when the EW Autocrew is on.

Your Task: You must turn EW Autocrew off to perform any tasks in the EW
station. It is your task to classify contacts by identifying the probable contact
from the list of classes known to carry the detected emitter. See FFG
Stations/FFG EW Station for information on classifying contacts in EW.

FFG LOOKOUT


The FFG Lookout is always ON. You cannot turn OFF this feature. The
lookout reports all visual contacts providing the relative bearing to the
contact and an estimated range. If the contact is close enough he may also
provide a fairly accurate classification. In S.C.S. – Dangerous Waters FFG
lookout reports are sent to the TMA Station to facilitate merging with
passive contacts. This helps clean up the 3D View on the Nav Map.

FFG TMA AUTOCREW


When ON the TMA Autocrew selects contacts for analysis, merges
contacts, determines probable course, range and speed and enters a
solution for the contact.

Your Task: You are prevented from making any inputs when the TMA
Autocrew is ON. You can select the contact to view. You see updates
appear only for the selected contact. If a contact is merged you see updates
from both reporting sensors when the merged contact is selected.






FFG TORPEDO CONTROL AUTOCREW


When ON the Torpedo Control Autocrew enters presets appropriate for the
selected contact.

Your Task: Select the target to attack and the tube to be fired. For Manual
shots you must set both the bearing and the gyro setting. All other presets
are set by the Autocrew and cannot be changed. You may need to alter
Ownship’s course to ensure a successful shot. You must also ready the
tube, locking in the presets for the selected weapon, and fire it.

FFG TOWED ARRAY AUTOCREW


Towed Array Autocrew marks contacts, assigns ATF Trackers and resolves
bearings in broadband; he also cycles through LOFAR data and classifies
contacts in Single Beam. The FFG Towed array always detects Ownship
because the array is dragged so far behind the ship. In order to conserve
trackers and minimize unnecessary clutter Autocrew does not assign a
tracker to the OS detection.

He will not mark or assign an ATF to the towed array’s detection of
Ownship. When Towed Array Autocrew is ON, you can select a beam in
LOFAR for him to examine in Single Beam mode but he may not classify it.
He rotates through all contacts on his own schedule.

Your Task: When the Towed Array Autocrew is ON you need do nothing
more at the Towed Array Station. However, since your Autocrew is not the
speediest, you can mark contacts and assign ATF’s yourself. At a later time
the Autocrew may reassign your ATFs to another contact if the array is
detecting many contacts. Be aware that the Autocrew is not the best or the
quickest at classification. The Profile Filter is always ON and disabled when
Autocrew is ON. You can select any class in an available profile list and
apply it yourself.

[Molon Labe]

I just want to say that OKO's settings are *perfect.* We obviously share the same philosophy about autocrew: that the trivial, mechanical tasks that some E-3 fresh out of A-school can do for us should be done by autocrew, but the stations requiring careful use and judgment should be done by the player.

I do have sympathy for the bitch of a TMA station the FFG drivers have, so I'm often willing to "compromise my principles" and live with FFG aTMA. When you've got a station that limits the range by the size of the "paper," forcing them to do manual is a bit cruel.


Oh, and Quick Launch is a BIG no-no. We (the mission designers) can start you off airborne, alert 5, alert 15, alert 30, or limp dicked; if we wanted a helo up quick in that mission we would have made effect to do so. Don't mess with us. :stare: :P

[MaHuJa]

Almost too bad the mission maker cannot enforce a few options, but that's probably just as well.

What they can do, is give their recommendations in the mission description... Which is a rare thing.

Almost as rare as environmental conditions, such as operation area depths etc.

[Driftwood]

Forgive me for not having thoroughly read each and every post in this thread (which i will do) but I've been wanting to ask this question for a long time. If (as most of us including me contend) the "Otto" crew can't hold a candle to an experienced "manual" player, why then don't we leave it up to the player to decide what Otto handles and what the human handles?

[Molon Labe]

Forgive me for not having thoroughly read each and every post in this thread (which i will do) but I've been wanting to ask this question for a long time. If (as most of us including me contend) the "Otto" crew can't hold a candle to an experienced "manual" player, why then don't we leave it up to the player to decide what Otto handles and what the human handles?

Please tell me you're talking about things like sonar and NOT TMA?! :doh:

[Molon Labe]

Almost too bad the mission maker cannot enforce a few options, but that's probably just as well.

What they can do, is give their recommendations in the mission description... Which is a rare thing.

Almost as rare as environmental conditions, such as operation area depths etc.

Mine include the conditions and depths. :up: But not settings, so let me just be absolutely clear:

Don't play my missions quick with launch on! If you do, I'll sell your children's organs to zoos for meat, and break into your houses at night and wreck up the place!

[Driftwood]

Forgive me for not having thoroughly read each and every post in this thread (which i will do) but I've been wanting to ask this question for a long time. If (as most of us including me contend) the "Otto" crew can't hold a candle to an experienced "manual" player, why then don't we leave it up to the player to decide what Otto handles and what the human handles?

Please tell me you're talking about things like sonar and NOT TMA?! :doh:

Don't worry ML, I'm referring to pretty much everything except aTMA. :up: