View Full Version : RuB 1.45 - Why are single ship contacts back?
runyan99
12-05-05, 03:54 AM
When I was playing under 1.43, I never got any single ship contacts. I had to luck into them, or I had to hunt for convoys. This was as it should be.
I just started my new patrol under 1.45 and I'm getting single ship contact information. Why?
Please take it out. U-boats didn't get single ship contact reports. They got convoy reports. Other U-boats didn't report single ship contacts to other boats, they sunk them. Condors didn't regularly report much of anything to u-boats. Where exactly is this information coming from? It's garbage.
Take these single contacts out. It isn't historical.
Merchant ships transmitted their positions and all sorts of information uncoded well into the war. This could be picked up by the raidooperator on the uboats so the singel contacts are not unhistorical.
There is a DF (Direction Finding) aerial in the conning tower of the U-Boat. The round one that you can see or the top of it since it's inside it's housing. And why shouldn't U-Boats receive locations of single merchants? Can you imagine how much supplies can be fitted inside of a 5000 tons ships for exaple. Change it to truck loads or train box cars and you can see the importance to sink all of them...
Finding targets via this system ain't magig (or garbage). By listening the right frequensies (wavelengths) you can receive (hear) a transmission from a ship and the bearing for that transmission can be seen too. One thing that makes it too easy is that you get the range and speed and course in the game when you should only get the direction of it and approximate range perhaps too. If the ship sends another messages later on then you could have an idea of its course and speed.
But this is how I would explain it to myself:Another possibility is that the position message is from BdU. They have been able to calculate the position of the transmission because it has been received by other units (U-Boats, surface vessels,airplanes) too and who then have sended the info (bearing of the received message from their location) to BdU. When you have 2 or 3 bearings from different locations you can "easily" spot the sender by crossing these bearings. Then the BdU sends the exact location of the target to nearby U-Boats.
The "Bismarck" was eventually located by this method because she sended a long message on her way to France. Royal Navy wasn't aware of her exact location at that moment and were searching from a wrong direction. This message helped them to point the searchs into right area. And we know the result for that.
Well, this is how I have figured out. Correct me if I'm wrong.
And like Jotte said, if the ship sends a message that is not coded and it says like blah blah...49°39.00 N, 15°5.00 W... now that is not difficult to pinpoint.
Early in the war there were ships that travelled on their own.
Only when the convoy system kicked in big did the numbers seriously decrease.Heck even during Drumbeat the Uboats would routinely find single merchants off the USA and hit them within sight of shore.So your comment of single ships not being historical is wrong.
And to top it off RUB has never removed the single ships..they have always been there since the very first release of RUB.
Beery has only decreased the numbers of them to about 20% of the stock setting and lowered the reporting chance of them..just cause you did not find any dont mean they are not there.Just have to know how and where to look for them.
coronas
12-05-05, 03:17 PM
Sometime ago I read a book about IIWW naval warfare, a great source of intelligence was the newspapers!! In neutral countries (Spain, Portugal, USA) information about entries, sorties, cargo and name of the ships were of public domain . A good agent send to Bdu, next Uboot captain and ship sunk!
runyan99
12-05-05, 03:23 PM
Can anyone site a real example of a U-boat detecting a single merchant ship via DF, and then sinking that merchant, or of a u-boat being informed by BdU of the presence of a single merchant ship in the u-boat's patrol grid?
They didn't even have to use DF at times like I posted above, the merchant ships were sending out their positions in their communications uncoded. This surprised and astonished the uboat commanders as it was happening well into the war.
This is mentioned in Hitler's U-Boat War by Clay Blair.
runyan99
12-06-05, 03:19 PM
Then please, find me an example of a U-boat using this information to sink a lone merchant. It should be easy.
I don't think you'll find many.
The single ship contact information in SHIII is a game invention by the designers to increase the action for the player, and to avoid long fruitless patrols.
You're twisting historical reality to conform to SHIII.
U-boats were not able to use radio intercepts to reliably locate and sink merchant vessels. Far and away most of the single ship contacts were chance encounters detected by the eyeball of the watchmen.
P.S. What pages are you referring to in Clay Blair? I'll re-read it.
I'm not twisting history to suit SH3, just pointing out that calling the singel merchant map contact unhistoric is not correct. The level of frequency is up to debate, as is much else. I could just turn around the question and say that you provide evidence of the oposit. ;)
I've not found the page and it might be on a diffrent page in my version since its an extended swedish language edition I have. It's 5 books instead of 2 and lots of info about swedish ships hit by uboats, extra drawings, maps and pictures etc.
I'll keep looking though when I get time away from the political geography books I have to read. :)
Personally, I don't use single ship contacts nor have ever used them. During the weeks in patrol, you usually find enough targets anyway. Whether or not this D/F method was used and in what quantities, I don't know. But the method and how it generally works was the point in my reply. In my "BdU" example I was merely "reasoning" the game feature how it could have happened, for the single ship contacts if one uses it. Call it twisting of history if you like, how else would you explain it IF you use it?
It surely would be interesting to know how effecient or uneffecient this method was for the U-Boats. Can you point out that it wasn't used at all? And if you use it or not, I don't care. And certainly I don't have any interest to begin any arguing with you. All I know the method existed and the devices were installed in U-Boats.
coronas
12-06-05, 06:29 PM
It´s easy. A game with ALL traffic at sea in IIWW following the real routes.
Whithout ship contacts finally can encounter some ship to sunk....or not. ;)
Hartmann
12-07-05, 06:20 PM
I´t difficult to know if condors repport only convoys or single ships too.
Probably their crews see ships at sea and report it to command when they land. and some times the planes attack the ships with bombs.
Also the "girls" in the departure port or inteligence could repport the traffic to germany. The same of the french u-boat bases to british :dead:
I use the single contacts when they are near or if i can do a interception course using the nomograph. :|\
I pay bribes to the bdu and luftwaffe for single ships repports. :rotfl:
Stiebler
12-09-05, 10:02 AM
To remove the single-ship contacts, go to data\cfg\contacts and change the line:
Display Range to Opportunity Contacts=300
to another suitable value (eg, =10, ship will be nearly visible anyway, to =50 allows simulated accurate DF-ing).
I agree with Runyan99 that these contacts occur unrealistically often in the stock game (with or without RUb). However, I keep them on anyway, to observe the pattern of ship movements thus simulating agents' reports. But for realism one should only rarely choose to intercept single-ship contacts.
irish1958
12-09-05, 10:58 AM
Does anyone know any WWII u-boat captains? If you do, call them and ask about single ship contacts. How often, how many, what did you do if you obtained one? Another way to get the answer would be to get the records of ship sinking and check the ratio of single ships to convoy ships. I suspect that early in the war most of the sinkings were, in fact, single ships.
i don't know any uboat captains. Very few retired to Indiana.
irish1958
Stiebler wrote:
to =50 allows simulated accurate DF-ing)
This sounds like a good idea. The original 300 is too much because of the uber accuracy in the game, But then you don't have D/F at all. Now this 50 km might work. :) Just finished patrol (42 days and 3 ships...) and going to try this setting for the next one.
runyan99
12-09-05, 11:56 PM
To remove the single-ship contacts, go to data\cfg\contacts and change the line:
Display Range to Opportunity Contacts=300
to another suitable value (eg, =10, ship will be nearly visible anyway, to =50 allows simulated accurate DF-ing).
I've done that in the past, but doing so will also disable the reporting of whole convoys, and I don't want that.
Somehow I was never getting single ship info in RuB 1.43, but still getting convoy info.
I checked the file you mention above in 1.43, and it still has a setting of 300. So, something else must have been different.
Stiebler
12-13-05, 02:23 PM
Runyan99 said:
I've done that in the past, but doing so will also disable the reporting of whole convoys, and I don't want that.
I believe that you are confusing "Opportunity Radio Contacts" (single ships) and "Important Radio Contacts" (convoys) in the cfg file.
runyan99
12-14-05, 02:14 AM
Maybe.
I thought that both single ships and convoys were opportunity contacts, and only the task forces were important radio contacts.
My main reason for believing this is that if the setting for opportunity contacts is set to 300km, I never get convoy info farther away than this, while I get task force info from far far away.
About that direction finding again. Dönitz has descriped the situation during the "Paukenschlag" operation, that US (who were totally unprapered for a warfare like this at that time) merchant ships used their wireless messages "freely" and often told their locations in messages. So it was easy for those few U-Boats to find their targets. I'm not sure, but I understand that they were able to point the aproximate location without coordinates too (with the D/F aerial).
The range must have been pretty short when this method was used , perhaps no more than 20-30 km? The HF/DF High Frequency Direction Finders in allied escort ships (from autumn 42 -->) were able to locate U-Boats at range of 25 nautical miles when they were sending their "kurzsignals". So if huffduff's range was "only" about 50 km (more than enough since the U-Boats needed to group up near the convoys), then surely (I assume) the german U-Boat DF couldn't do the same and the range must have been shorter and the location unaccurate (but near enough to be found visually or by hydrophones).
When Dönitz moved from Wilhelmshaven to France Kerneval, in summer 1940, he brought a lot of D/F and code braker experts and equipment with him. Germans were able to read the british messages sended from the middle of the Atlantic and the coded orders sent to the ships. This information (the target location) were then sent to operational U-Boats. The allied cypher was changed in summer 1943, after that germans were unable to break it.
Kriegsmarine had no own airforces thanks to Herring...err Göring. The few reconnaissance planes that were in use mostly had difficulties to pin point the exact location of the ships they spotted. THe error could be 150 km. Too much for U-Boats. And the code was different between the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine. This brought another problem in communication.
There should be single ship radio contacts in the game. But in what quantities then? German reconnaissance from air was pretty much null like the moves of their surface fleet or single ships. German surface vessel (warship or merchant) wouldn't brake up radio silence very easily due to the effecient D/F system brits had for controlling the area near their home island (Bismarck example above. Dangerous area for D/F against U-Boats was considered to be within 200 km from british coast). And if a U-Boat saw or located a target, it would most likely destroy it. So the only way to explain radio contacts is the D/F in U-Boats (which should be limited to no more than 50 km like mentioned before by stiebler) and the B-Dienst codebrakers in mainland (France), and after summer 43 the method was pretty much useless due the new allied cypher.
Edit:
I mentioned earlier in this topic:
Can you imagine how much supplies can be fitted inside of a 5000 tons ships for exaple. Change it to truck loads or train box cars and you can see the importance to sink all of them...
convoy PQ 16 lost 7 ships =
32 400 tons of war material
147 tanks
77 airplanes
770 vehicles
That is only seven ships and the material losses are huge!
When I was playing under 1.43, I never got any single ship contacts. I had to luck into them, or I had to hunt for convoys. This was as it should be.
I just started my new patrol under 1.45 and I'm getting single ship contact information. Why?
Please take it out. U-boats didn't get single ship contact reports. They got convoy reports. Other U-boats didn't report single ship contacts to other boats, they sunk them. Condors didn't regularly report much of anything to u-boats. Where exactly is this information coming from? It's garbage.
Take these single contacts out. It isn't historical.
I don't know who Runyon is, but I just love this old post!!! :up:
Then please, find me an example of a U-boat using this information to sink a lone merchant. It should be easy.
I don't think you'll find many.
The single ship contact information in SHIII is a game invention by the designers to increase the action for the player, and to avoid long fruitless patrols.
You're twisting historical reality to conform to SHIII.
U-boats were not able to use radio intercepts to reliably locate and sink merchant vessels. Far and away most of the single ship contacts were chance encounters detected by the eyeball of the watchmen.
P.S. What pages are you referring to in Clay Blair? I'll re-read it.
This one is even better...!!!! :up:
bigboywooly
07-14-06, 09:19 PM
@ Magua
If you dont like single contacts take them out
No need to bang on about then in different posts
ie;
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=95660&page=4
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=95281
Thats the second mod you have had a go at for this - if you dont like it dont use it or make your own
No pleasing some people
Ducimus
07-14-06, 09:28 PM
Source:
The Battle of the Atlantic: The allies submarine fight against Hitlers Grey Wolves of the sea. By Andrew WIlliams.
Page 165, Chapter 8, paragraph 4.
Whlist Doniz hoped for favoruble conditions on the American coast, he could never have imagned just howe favoruable they would be. The westword progress of the Drumbeat boats had been monitored carefully by U-boat command. On 2 January, Doniz decided to break his own orders and authorized U-123 to search for a Greek steamer drifting some 200 miles east of Newfoundland with a broken rudder. Hardegen remebers: 'There was a pea-souper of a fog when we arrived there. It was a sudden suprise to see the shadowy outline of a ship. I could see there were two tugs in the process of taking on lines. I coudlnt really shoot - i was too close. And then the fog lifed and suddenly i saw two destroyers. I turned around immediatly and the fog closed in again. They couldnt see me'.
Donitz's message to Hardegen had been intercepted by Bletchley, decrypted and passed to the Tracking room. The two Canadian destroyers were lying in wait for him. 'I said to myself, "if i sink this freighter, and perhaps one destroyer, theres still the second one. It's shallow water and i can't escape, so theres a good chance of my boat being sunk." My mission was to get to New York, so i let the ship go, though i felt very bad about it.'
The U-boat trap did not close but it took U-123 300 miles off course and wasted a great deal of fuel
Can we please get a lock on this thread as well.Lets nip this one in the bud before it turns the corner like the last thread.
If you do not like the single contacts then TURN THEM OFF!!!!Or better yet..simply stop playing the game and sell it to someone who will appreciate it and the work that these modders put into the game to get it where it is now.
Dont go digging up an 8 months old thread just to start the same argument and crap that got the last thread locked.:nope: :nope:
Source:
The Battle of the Atlantic: The allies submarine fight against Hitlers Grey Wolves of the sea. By Andrew WIlliams.
Page 165, Chapter 8, paragraph 4.
Whlist Doniz hoped for favoruble conditions on the American coast, he could never have imagned just howe favoruable they would be. The westword progress of the Drumbeat boats had been monitored carefully by U-boat command. On 2 January, Doniz decided to break his own orders and authorized U-123 to search for a Greek steamer drifting some 200 miles east of Newfoundland with a broken rudder. Hardegen remebers: 'There was a pea-souper of a fog when we arrived there. It was a sudden suprise to see the shadowy outline of a ship. I could see there were two tugs in the process of taking on lines. I coudlnt really shoot - i was too close. And then the fog lifed and suddenly i saw two destroyers. I turned around immediatly and the fog closed in again. They couldnt see me'.
Donitz's message to Hardegen had been intercepted by Bletchley, decrypted and passed to the Tracking room. The two Canadian destroyers were lying in wait for him. 'I said to myself, "if i sink this freighter, and perhaps one destroyer, theres still the second one. It's shallow water and i can't escape, so theres a good chance of my boat being sunk." My mission was to get to New York, so i let the ship go, though i felt very bad about it.'
The U-boat trap did not close but it took U-123 300 miles off course and wasted a great deal of fuel
yes, I already mentioned this one in the other thread (the NYGM vs GW one). It is the only documented case in the six years of the war. Now if you're looking for the opposite then you'll find countless descriptions.
@ Magua
If you dont like single contacts take them out
No need to bang on about then in different posts
ie;
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=95660&page=4
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=95281
Thats the second mod you have had a go at for this - if you dont like it dont use it or make your own
No pleasing some people
Oh, I love the RUB Mods. It set the standard for all those mega mods that came after it. I will be keeping RUB for a loooongggg time..
My point was to applaud the Historical Argument the Poster Made (Runyon)
Can we please get a lock on this thread as well.Lets nip this one in the bud before it turns the corner like the last thread.
If you do not like the single contacts then TURN THEM OFF!!!!Or better yet..simply stop playing the game and sell it to someone who will appreciate it and the work that these modders put into the game to get it where it is now.
Dont go digging up an 8 months old thread just to start the same argument and crap that got the last thread locked.:nope: :nope:
Oh. I see. if someone does not agree with your analysis the solution is to just lock the thread?
Ducimus
07-14-06, 11:14 PM
http://www.atdf.org/awards/images/astaire.jpg
Someone here's very good at this:
Ok Mr self appointed expert who seems to think we should all bow to your superior intellectual accumen. SInce everybody else is wrong, and your so right, and since you hate and detest single merchants so much, here's what you do, and ONLY YOU will have to do this, because i highly doubt much anyone cares as passionatly about this "issue" that you do, and you can do this in one of two ways.
1.) Load the mission editor. Load the Campaign.RND file. Find every instance of a single merchant contact, in the explorer window, right click on it, go to group properties and where the section of contact reports is, put in -1, and 0%.
or you an
2.) Open the the campaign.RND file in MS wordpad, look for whatever the contact report variable is called, then do something like find "ContactReporttime =" and replace it with ContactReporttime=-1, do the same for probably, and reset them all to 0%.
do that for the entire freaking file. If i have this backwards in this descrption all you have to do is find an HK group entry, and look at its its contact probably as you do not receive contact reports for them. Emulate those settings for all your single merchants.
Of course that will kill your convoy contract reports as well, so you'll have to go back and put those back in through the editor.
Since your so smart, im sure you can handle it. If you hate other peoples work so much, then do some of your own work, half the people here mod their own game, and probably can't comprehend why you just dont do this change yourself, rather then sit here and bitch about it.
http://www.atdf.org/awards/images/astaire.jpg
Someone here's very good at this:
Ok Mr self appointed expert who seems to think we should all bow to your superior intellectual accumen. SInce everybody else is wrong, and your so right, and since you hate and detest single merchants so much, here's what you do, and ONLY YOU will have to do this, because i highly doubt much anyone cares as passionatly about this "issue" that you do, and you can do this in one of two ways.
1.) Load the mission editor. Load the Campaign.RND file. Find every instance of a single merchant contact, in the explorer window, right click on it, go to group properties and where the section of contact reports is, put in -1, and 0%.
or you an
2.) Open the the campaign.RND file in MS wordpad, look for whatever the contact report variable is called, then do something like find "ContactReporttime =" and replace it with ContactReporttime=-1, do the same for probably, and reset them all to 0%.
do that for the entire freaking file. If i have this backwards in this descrption all you have to do is find an HK group entry, and look at its its contact probably as you do not receive contact reports for them. Emulate those settings for all your single merchants.
Of course that will kill your convoy contract reports as well, so you'll have to go back and put those back in through the editor.
Since your so smart, im sure you can handle it. If you hate other peoples work so much, then do some of your own work, half the people here mod their own game, and probably can't comprehend why you just dont do this change yourself, rather then sit here and bitch about it.
Or. I could just install the mod that gives me a choice already.....:roll: I don't want to name what that mod is since there is such an explosive rivalry.
I love the photo by the way! :rotfl:
http://www.atdf.org/awards/images/astaire.jpg
Someone here's very good at this:
Ok Mr self appointed expert who seems to think we should all bow to your superior intellectual accumen. SInce everybody else is wrong, and your so right, and since you hate and detest single merchants so much, here's what you do, and ONLY YOU will have to do this, because i highly doubt much anyone cares as passionatly about this "issue" that you do, and you can do this in one of two ways.
1.) Load the mission editor. Load the Campaign.RND file. Find every instance of a single merchant contact, in the explorer window, right click on it, go to group properties and where the section of contact reports is, put in -1, and 0%.
or you an
2.) Open the the campaign.RND file in MS wordpad, look for whatever the contact report variable is called, then do something like find "ContactReporttime =" and replace it with ContactReporttime=-1, do the same for probably, and reset them all to 0%.
do that for the entire freaking file.
Of course that will kill your convoy contract reports as well, so you'll have to go back and put those back in through the editor.
There now you have a complete explanation how to do it.So hopefully this will be the last we hear from you on this subject.At least for awhile anyway,as that will be quite alot of work to get each and every one of them.
Since your so smart, im sure you can handle it. If you hate other peoples work so much, then do some of your own work, half the people here mod their own game, and probably can't comprehend why you just dont do this change yourself, rather then sit here and bitch about it.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
Well, if you go back and read other posts you'll find that I'm not alone. :lol:
[quote=runyan99]Then please, find me an example of a U-boat using this information to sink a lone merchant. It should be easy.
I don't think you'll find many.
The single ship contact information in SHIII is a game invention by the designers to increase the action for the player, and to avoid long fruitless patrols.
You're twisting historical reality to conform to SHIII.
U-boats were not able to use radio intercepts to reliably locate and sink merchant vessels. Far and away most of the single ship contacts were chance encounters detected by the eyeball of the watchmen.
P.S. What pages are you referring to in Clay Blair? I'll re-read it.
I think this person's post really states it the best. Especially the "twisting historical reality" statement.
And to expand on that, I think by including single contacts on the navigation map in a mod and then making it seem as if it was the norm during the war, really does a dis service to History.
[quote=runyan99]Then please, find me an example of a U-boat using this information to sink a lone merchant. It should be easy.
I don't think you'll find many.
The single ship contact information in SHIII is a game invention by the designers to increase the action for the player, and to avoid long fruitless patrols.
You're twisting historical reality to conform to SHIII.
U-boats were not able to use radio intercepts to reliably locate and sink merchant vessels. Far and away most of the single ship contacts were chance encounters detected by the eyeball of the watchmen.
P.S. What pages are you referring to in Clay Blair? I'll re-read it.
I think this person's post really states it the best. Especially the "twisting historical reality" statement.
And to expand on that, I think by including single contacts on the navigation map in a mod and then making it seem as if it was the norm during the war, really does a dis service to History.
What you cant seem to understand is this is a GAME..Not a history lesson.We have said it already numerous times..you dont like it change it or dont play it.Now you have the instructions on how to do it.So do it already and stop whining about it.
As has been also stated numerous times..the contacts were put in to give people a way to play without having to rely on constant non evenful patrols.Many like this others do not.Its all personal preferences..and you have no right to say that your way is the only way it should be.The difference here is the ones who like no contacts have either modded it themselves or found something else that does what they want..where you want to do nothing but bitch about it..but not actually do anything about it.
[quote=runyan99]Then please, find me an example of a U-boat using this information to sink a lone merchant. It should be easy.
I don't think you'll find many.
The single ship contact information in SHIII is a game invention by the designers to increase the action for the player, and to avoid long fruitless patrols.
You're twisting historical reality to conform to SHIII.
U-boats were not able to use radio intercepts to reliably locate and sink merchant vessels. Far and away most of the single ship contacts were chance encounters detected by the eyeball of the watchmen.
P.S. What pages are you referring to in Clay Blair? I'll re-read it.
I think this person's post really states it the best. Especially the "twisting historical reality" statement.
And to expand on that, I think by including single contacts on the navigation map in a mod and then making it seem as if it was the norm during the war, really does a dis service to History.
..the contacts were put in to give people a way to play without having to rely on constant non evenful patrols..
Well there ya go! You finally came around and agreed with me that those contacts are not Historically Accurate, just a "gaming" thing! My point exactly! :up:
JScones
07-15-06, 12:00 AM
And to expand on that, I think by including single contacts on the navigation map in a mod and then making it seem as if it was the norm during the war, really does a dis service to History.
Yes, I believe you may have said this once or twice, or even three times.
You have RUb, you have NYGM, you have Ducimus' explanation, you have your own ability to mod the game (well, maybe not?), you've expressed your opinion countless times, now just move on and play your game...sorry historical simulation. Stop, as CWorth so well put it, giving everyone an historical lesson. Believe it or not, not everyone here shares your view (some just want to play an enjoyable game). Just accept that and stop spamming and trolling every thread you come by.
Geez, you just don't take a hint do you?
And to expand on that, I think by including single contacts on the navigation map in a mod and then making it seem as if it was the norm during the war, really does a dis service to History.
Yes, I believe you may have said this once or twice, or even three times.
You have RUb, you have NYGM, you have Ducimus' explanation, you have your own ability to mod the game (well, maybe not?), you've expressed your opinion countless times, now just move on and play your game...sorry historical simulation. Stop, as CWorth so well put it, giving everyone an historical lesson. Believe it or not, not everyone here shares your view (some just want to play an enjoyable game). Just accept that and stop spamming and trolling every thread you come by.
Geez, you just don't take a hint do you?
I just find it odd that everytime I express a View that someone does not agree with, then it becomes "trolling", "instigating", etc...... Are free thinking views not allowed on the Forum. Have I entered North Korea?
And as far as I understand as long as it does not conflict with the Subsim Acceptable use Policy, then I am free to make posts as I please. I have not used profanity or deragotory comments as others have done, which does conflict with the AUP.
JScones
07-15-06, 12:22 AM
See, here's the thing.
You've expressed your view COUNTLESS TIMES on about 4 or 5 threads in at least two different forums (although you did apparently post your "final thoughts" on the subject back on 4 July). I'm not arguing with your viewpoint - never have. If that's what you want to believe, then no skin off my nose. I'm disagreeing with your attitude. Totally different thing.
See, you've been given solutions, hell, you even know what the solutions are, to make the game (simulation, or whatever you want to call it) the way YOU want to play it.
So why keep *ramming* your views of reality onto everyone else at every opportunity? You have given a strong perception that you don't care what other people think anyway, as you know it all. So why bother continually repeating your point baiting people to argue with you (especially when you wrote yesterday in another thread in the SHIV forum that you weren't going to debate your view)?
Here's a perfect example of the baiting to which I refer... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=279450#post279450 I note your last response is after the one where you said you were not going to debate it. A perfect example of where you do not want to respect someone else's viewpoint and simply want to engage in an argument to ram home yours.
This thread is another good example - you've rehashed a thread where the last post was seven months ago, and added no new value to it at all - just another bait to get someone's attention, perhaps because the last thread was locked?
Enough is enough already. Move on to your next beef with SH3 and let's start on it.
Well there ya go! You finally came around and agreed with me that those contacts are not Historically Accurate, just a "gaming" thing! My point exactly! :up:
I am not agreeing or disagreeing one way or the other.Just stating a fact about the game engine.
I really could not care a less how someone wants to play their game or whether a particular thing is accurate or not.Thats all up to the interpretation of fatcs and evidence by each individual.
What I was arguing was your handling of the whole thing.
People were doing everything they could to help by giving their interpretations of what they know about the Uboat war based on what info and sources/books they might have.And you just kept repeatingthe same thing over and over and just seemed to be arguing for the sake of arguing.
You seem to take anything you read as the gospel from your books.That alone is a big mistake.I would say that most books are nothing more than the authors interpretations of the facts that they had at the time of the writing of the book.All of history is up for interpretation..especially after so many years have passed and memories begin to fade and other stuff is lost to time.
I always live by the saying.."Never believe anything you hear and only half of what you read".
What it all comes down to with "facts" is lets say you take 5 books.Now all these books are on the same subject.However all of the have slightly differing views or facts of what they are trying to explain.So you have to take what you read in all of them combine it all together and try to find a point somewhere in the middle and that middle will usually be closer to the truth then any one of those books alone is conveying.Everything in life is based on interpretation of events..so is history and the books on the subjects .
Well there ya go! You finally came around and agreed with me that those contacts are not Historically Accurate, just a "gaming" thing! My point exactly! :up:
I am not agreeing or disagreeing one way or the other.Just stating a fact about the game engine.
I really could not care a less how someone wants to play their game or whether a particular thing is accurate or not.Thats all up to the interpretation of fatcs and evidence by each individual.
What I was arguing was your handling of the whole thing.
People were doing everything they could to help by giving their interpretations of what they know about the Uboat war based on what info and sources/books they might have.And you just kept repeatingthe same thing over and over and just seemed to be arguing for the sake of arguing.
You seem to take anything you read as the gospel from your books.That alone is a big mistake.I would say that most books are nothing more than the authors interpretations of the facts that they had at the time of the writing of the book.All of history is up for interpretation..especially after so many years have passed and memories begin to fade and other stuff is lost to time.
I always live by the saying.."Never believe anything you hear and only half of what you read".
What it all comes down to with "facts" is lets say you take 5 books.Now all these books are on the same subject.However all of the have slightly differing views or facts of what they are trying to explain.So you have to take what you read in all of them combine it all together and try to find a point somewhere in the middle and that middle will usually be closer to the truth then any one of those books alone is conveying.Everything in life is based on interpretation of events..so is history and the books on the subjects .
Okay, so you disbelieve what is documented, and come up with your own conclusions to write your own History to fit what you think should be correct...???
Authors of History Works do not just sit around and interpret. They base their interpretations on primary sources and interviews with those who were there.
[quote=runyan99]Then please, find me an example of a U-boat using this information to sink a lone merchant. It should be easy.
I don't think you'll find many.
The single ship contact information in SHIII is a game invention by the designers to increase the action for the player, and to avoid long fruitless patrols.
You're twisting historical reality to conform to SHIII.
U-boats were not able to use radio intercepts to reliably locate and sink merchant vessels. Far and away most of the single ship contacts were chance encounters detected by the eyeball of the watchmen.
P.S. What pages are you referring to in Clay Blair? I'll re-read it.
I think this person's post really states it the best. Especially the "twisting historical reality" statement.
And to expand on that, I think by including single contacts on the navigation map in a mod and then making it seem as if it was the norm during the war, really does a dis service to History.
What you cant seem to understand is this is a GAME..Not a history lesson.
Well, CW I think you will find that most people got into this game because they have an interest in the Time Period. The Majority of the Subsim Forums and SHIII Forums deal with Historical Topics. More than likely most players were big WWII Buffs before SHIII was even thought of. So many players want it to be as Historically Accurate as possible.
There is even a WaW where players experience a "living history" type atmosphere.
So I would disagree (not trolling or baiting) with your inference that History plays no part in the game.
See, here's the thing.
You've expressed your view COUNTLESS TIMES on about 4 or 5 threads in at least two different forums (although you did apparently post your "final thoughts" on the subject back on 4 July). I'm not arguing with your viewpoint - never have. If that's what you want to believe, then no skin off my nose. I'm disagreeing with your attitude. Totally different thing.
See, you've been given solutions, hell, you even know what the solutions are, to make the game (simulation, or whatever you want to call it) the way YOU want to play it.
So why keep *ramming* your views of reality onto everyone else at every opportunity? You have given a strong perception that you don't care what other people think anyway, as you know it all. So why bother continually repeating your point baiting people to argue with you (especially when you wrote yesterday in another thread in the SHIV forum that you weren't going to debate your view)?
Here's a perfect example of the baiting to which I refer... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=279450#post279450 I note your last response is after the one where you said you were not going to debate it. A perfect example of where you do not want to respect someone else's viewpoint and simply want to engage in an argument to ram home yours.
This thread is another good example - you've rehashed a thread where the last post was seven months ago, and added no new value to it at all - just another bait to get someone's attention, perhaps because the last thread was locked?
Enough is enough already. Move on to your next beef with SH3 and let's start on it.
I'm not aware of any limits on how many times a topic can be discussed. As long as I am not profane, insulting, or deragatory (as others have been) I believe I can post on this subject.
bigboywooly
07-15-06, 08:06 AM
@ Magua
:damn: :damn: Noone is saying you cant mention a topic more than once
What everyone disagrees with is your continual sniping
If you are so annoyed at historical inaccuracies then go away and make your own mod
Until then you can use the information given to remove the single ship contacs and stop being so negative about other peoples work
GW has had over 10,000 downloads - do you think every one of those has agreed with everything done or not changed their installation to suit their own needs
Even NYGM users have changed their mod to suit individual tastes and no doubt the same can be said about every major mod made
I know I have changed a few things and added things to suit my own needs
A simple question on how to remove single contacts was all you needed to post instead of the continual sniping
Every single mod is better than the stock game and be thankful people spend the time making them
Magua understands that some members are a dog to the Single Ship Contact debate. When it appears on the Forum they put down their Tomahawk to feed their laziness.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Lets see what Neal thinks...you've just been reported to him as an instigator and trouble maker and this last post is a direct attack on members here which is against forum rules.Lets see what he thinks.Im through with dealing with you..let the mods and admin have a go now.
I suggest that everone else simply ignore him and do the same..let the admins and moderators deal with him.
Ducimus
07-15-06, 09:40 AM
http://uplink.space.com/attachments/270850-DoNotFeedTroll.jpg
Lets see what Neal thinks...you've just been reported to him as an instigator and trouble maker and this last post is a direct attack on members here which is against forum rules.Lets see what he thinks.Im through with dealing with you..let the mods and admin have a go now.
I suggest that everone else simply ignore him and do the same..let the admins and moderators deal with him.
You've obviously never seen The last of the Mohicans..1992.
Another member made that same Magua post to me in another thread and I at least saw the humor in it. And that person is still posting.
WOW, It would be very sad if a precedent is set that those who disagree with certain members are labeled as "Instigators". I hope the North Korean Secret police do not come and get me.
My posts are very tame compared to what I have read others say on here....very tame
Onkel Neal
07-15-06, 10:13 AM
Lets see what Neal thinks...you've just been reported to him as an instigator and trouble maker and this last post is a direct attack on members here which is against forum rules.Lets see what he thinks.Im through with dealing with you..let the mods and admin have a go now.
I suggest that everone else simply ignore him and do the same..let the admins and moderators deal with him.
That's exactly what one should do with a person they feel is trolling--ignore him, don't feed the trolls. If no one replies to the post, then it sinks. If someone replies, then it lives. If the same person bumps/replies to his own post, then the admin or mods can ask him to stop.
Ducimus
07-15-06, 11:15 AM
Folks, i have the answer on how to deal with trolls like the one that has decided to infest our forums since 2nd of this month!
Observe and behold!
Step 1:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/stfu_1.jpg
Step 2:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/stfu_2.jpg
Step 3:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/stfu_3.jpg
The results!
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/stfu_4.jpg
See?! Oh wait.. thats the thing, its what you don't see! Awww once again a troll free forum. Sweet isn't it?
I HIGHLY suggest everyone else do the same.
NIIIIICE!!!!
I did not even know that function was here..thanks Ducimus.:rock:
Ducimus
07-15-06, 11:18 AM
Me either, i had to ask about it. Pretty sweet deal, im liking these new forums a whole lot more now :up:
JScones
07-15-06, 11:19 AM
Thanks for the heads-up Ducimus!
Awesome Ducimus!
I'm going to use that myself! :up:
And on a side note I actually first came to the Forums last year in July 2005. I had a different handle and email then because of a move. Now what was that name I had back then....hmmmmm I'll have to think about it...:hmm:
Hi all.
My first post here. Just my 2 cents on the subject.
I just started modding and they make this great game even greater, thanks to all the kind people who do it. I use NYGM Tonnage (and yes it's HARD, which is what I wanted because I was tired of beating the real aces in tonnage) and they removed all contact symbols on map. I got a radio intercept of Task Force and went to Grid on map, there was no symbol but if you put the mouse cursor over the contact that selection circle would appear. I went into Data/Menu/Gui/Units folder an checked the tga file UnitWShip and it was blank. I reinstalled these files(UnitMShip,UnitWShip.tga) from the All Grey Contacts Mod I was using minus the ContLine.tga from Data/Menu/Gui. The fantastic result (in my eyes at least:D ) was the grey diamond symbol appearing indicating the position of the task Force minus the trailing line indicating the exact course. To make my long story short, I plotted an intercept course south (the contact said TF was going N)... and missed it:cry: . In short it was not going exactly N and passed me slightly to the east. This happens with single merchants and convoys as well with that ContLine.tga blanked out. No more trails for contacts, so there is a chance to miss them on your intercept. I think this is a good balance between having contacts and not having them.
Again, just my 2 cents.
Magua,
I'm with a feeling...a feeling that you are the Alter Ego of one guy that I'm not seeing in this forum since, perhaps, the last 2 or 3 weeks. Don't mind, just my thoughts.
Anyway, nice to meet you. Some people really adds to the game community. Some adds good things, others...well, hum...you know that!
Cheers mate!
Rubini.
Magua is dead...
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/Boris117/MaguaDead.jpg
Magua will put the Single Ship Contact Under the Knife. When the SIngle Ship Contact is Dead Magua Will eat its Heart.
Before Killing the Single Ship Contact Magua will kill the Contact's Children and he will know that his seed dies forever!!
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3049/magua0013zkcb9.jpg
U-Bones
07-17-06, 07:29 AM
Magua,
I'm with a feeling...a feeling that you are the Alter Ego of one guy that I'm not seeing in this forum since, perhaps, the last 2 or 3 weeks. Don't mind, just my thoughts.
Anyway, nice to meet you. Some people really adds to the game community. Some adds good things, others...well, hum...you know that!
Cheers mate!
Rubini.
LOL Rubini, the same thought occured to me
Magua took the Hatchet to color with Blood. It is still bright.
Only when its red, then will it be buried.
Feed Magua More.
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/6921/maguapp4.jpg
Kpt. Lehmann
07-17-06, 04:43 PM
Magua,
I'm with a feeling...a feeling that you are the Alter Ego of one guy that I'm not seeing in this forum since, perhaps, the last 2 or 3 weeks. Don't mind, just my thoughts.
Anyway, nice to meet you. Some people really adds to the game community. Some adds good things, others...well, hum...you know that!
Cheers mate!
Rubini.
LOL Rubini, the same thought occured to me
...and me too LOL!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Which reveals the maturity level of the individual in question.
Ducimus
07-17-06, 09:52 PM
Magua,
I'm with a feeling...a feeling that you are the Alter Ego of one guy that I'm not seeing in this forum since, perhaps, the last 2 or 3 weeks. Don't mind, just my thoughts.
.
LOL Rubini, the same thought occured to me
...and me too LOL!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Which reveals the maturity level of the individual in question.
http://andrewcoyne.com/Images/Schultz.jpg
I see nothing! I hear nothing!
Magua,
I'm with a feeling...a feeling that you are the Alter Ego of one guy that I'm not seeing in this forum since, perhaps, the last 2 or 3 weeks. Don't mind, just my thoughts.
.
LOL Rubini, the same thought occured to me
...and me too LOL!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Which reveals the maturity level of the individual in question.
http://andrewcoyne.com/Images/Schultz.jpg
I see nothing! I hear nothing!
Ahhh Ducimus Buddy!!! Good to see you again.!!!
Is that your WWII German Infantry Impression??? See! I knew you were a Farb!
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Magua is dead...
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f152/Boris117/MaguaDead.jpg
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
That is a pretty clever post I must admit.
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/2492/kimqo5.jpg
Ducimus speaks, "All must agree with my opinion. Otherwise you are an instigator and will be put on ignore!!! All Hail the Dear Leader!!!""
Shelton
08-14-07, 04:00 AM
To remove the single-ship contacts, go to data\cfg\contacts and change the line:
Display Range to Opportunity Contacts=300
to another suitable value (eg, =10, ship will be nearly visible anyway, to =50 allows simulated accurate DF-ing).
I agree with Runyan99 that these contacts occur unrealistically often in the stock game (with or without RUb). However, I keep them on anyway, to observe the pattern of ship movements thus simulating agents' reports. But for realism one should only rarely choose to intercept single-ship contacts.
I totally agree - and thanks for the tip on disabling this 'feature'
Shelton.
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