Morale = Could we Mod it to include other things?.

[gouldjg]

Wounded=-0.02
Dead=-0.05
SunkShips=0.1
TorpedoHit=0.05

So what about

torpedo Miss=-0.01
taking damage = ???? thats if it works at all


Can you suggest some that may work and I will test it out.

I will first try the torpedo miss as that will show if there is any chance at all.

Will report back soon

[Der Teddy Bar]

gouldjg,
We already have a Morale mod up and running as a work in progress. We hope to be able to 'road test' it shortly, and afterwards release it on the unsuspecting public.

torpedo Miss=-0.01
taking damage =
I am presuming that these are made up? Either that or I am blind, NOOoooooooo surely not.....

Remember, that morale is used in the compartment effeciency calculations as per my previous posts.

[Jungman]

I think the morale should be a harder hit if someone dies. It is too little change.

[gdogghenrikson]

does moral actually DO anything?

[Jungman]

Yes it does. Look at that formula for compartmet effeciency/repair rate. Tweak that and you can get some interesting results! hehe.

HOUR long repairs?? :hmm:

It main thrust is when someone/ person is injured or dead. It is a bit weak there. Plus mised torpedo is so lame, I would increase it. HINT HINT.

[gdogghenrikson]

what file is this that we are talking about?

[Marhkimov]

Basic.cfg

[Jungman]

Tweak some and if you get one or two guys dead/injured in a DC drop near the compartment which they are in, they will not work very well at all.

Even if a seaman is not showing injured or dead, their Resilience bar (heath) will be down to half what is was or less, and this will cause them to work very slowly until they can get an extended long rest. :arrgh!:

[Observer]

I think the morale should be a harder hit if someone dies. It is too little change.

In the mod Teddy mentions above, it does. Believe me it does. :o

One line in the Basic.cfg

TorpedoHit=0.05 doesn't appear to do anything as far as I can currently tell.

I have a Monte Carlo model for crew members and compartment efficiency. PM me if you are interested and I can send a link to the spreadsheet (Excel based).

[gdogghenrikson]

does moral even have a perpose, its not like A revolt could break out (like in the game Pirates! when you don't devide the gold.) funny thought, a sword fight with rapiers on a U-Boat :rotfl:

[Der Teddy Bar]

does moral even have a perpose, its not like A revolt could break out (like in the game Pirates! when you don't devide the gold.) funny thought, a sword fight with rapiers on a U-Boat :rotfl:
Here you go....
The formula used to calculate compartment efficiency is:
- if the compartment is not destroyed or flooded and all the men inside are healthy:
o Moral *(10fCoefMorale_per_grad) + fCoefMoral_per_grad*(1-fatigue*(1-CoefFatigue_per_grad)
- if there is a petty officer and has the right qualification for that compartment (e.g. if is a PO with Torpedo man qualification inside the Bow Torpedo Room)
o Moral *(10fCoefMorale_per_grad) + fCoefMoral_per_grad*(1-fatigue*(1-CoefFatigue_per_grad)* QualEffect

[gouldjg]

gouldjg,
We already have a Morale mod up and running as a work in progress. We hope to be able to 'road test' it shortly, and afterwards release it on the unsuspecting public.

torpedo Miss=-0.01
taking damage =
I am presuming that these are made up? Either that or I am blind, NOOoooooooo surely not.....

Remember, that morale is used in the compartment effeciency calculations as per my previous posts.

They are made up?

Just wondered if the devs may have tried something out but later abandoned it and it is still hardcoded somewhere.

Heres a thought for you guys though it may not work.

What if,

One was too higher the hp for each crew member but set their protection lower so we get more variation.

Does anyone know where the injury trigger is stored. Ahhh wait I think I may be onto something here guys.

Either I am thinking what Jungmann has already thought and he knows something I don't or may have just discovered.

I need to test something brb later

[Der Teddy Bar]

Oops, let the cat out of the bag! :oops: Had been hoping to keep this under wraps for a bit longer. Oh well ;)

The Morale mod (part of the Tonnage War mod) will make your success and actions a key component of how well your men perform.

Reckless actions where your men are injured or die will effect your crew's morale, which in turn effects thier performance. Sadely, bad luck will also have an impact, life is hard as a captain.

Go a long time between sinkings and again, this will impact upon your mens performance. Not in a way to punish you, but it will be an impact.

Sink ships and your men will be in top spirits keeping your mens performance at it peak within the limits of thier 'Effeciency', Observer's new name for fatigue, a word that shall from here forth not be spoken of :rotfl:

[Jungman]

Sounds like a winner! :up:

What does the "f" in the formula mean??

fCoefMoral_per_grad

Is it function? I have a college degree in calculus and never seen this except as 'it is a function of'. Thanks.!

AM I missing an ")" at the end of the formula?

Moral *(10fCoefMorale_per_grad) + fCoefMoral_per_grad*(1-fatigue*(1-CoefFatigue_per_grad) ")"

[gouldjg]

Well

That certanly sound very interesting and exciting.

I was scrathching my head for that as I thought there was possibilities.

I look forward to it.

We all know what a powerful tool sh3 commander is when it comes to giving people choices in CFG files.

If you look on Jscones thread for sh3 commander you will see where Jscones has advised me on how to have different settings in the medals cfg.

That is where I stored the compartment interval changes and it worked.

I feel guys,

That soon with the help of Jscones, a player will be able to use whatever fatigue model, whatever work rates, whatever morale model and also new injury models.

I have one thing to say about the future of sh3 crew.


Their Alive their Alive

[Jungman]

QualEffect in my finding only seems to work in whole Integer numbers. ??

Example setting a seaman to 0.5 from the default 1 does not make any difference (or 2.5 is truncated to 2 it seems). Only whole numbers. 1, 2, 3. I used that to help slow repairs. Even more exciting is the way you could really get the morale and fatigue coeffiecent which will accept a fractional number, to tweak the 'repair' effect so it just barely balance 100% effeciency.

Then any problems leads to very long repairs, if any at all! :arrgh!: That is what I was working/trying on in a new repair/damage model with a stronger hull. (I never got it finished though :( ). I got a new game to play...taking up my time..plus moving into a new house. (Die Hard is on hold but not 'dead' yet lol).

Then adding in effects from medals for bonus should be accounted for also (saves the day with the bonus to stats). Alot of possibility.

[gouldjg]

Oops, let the cat out of the bag! :oops: Had been hoping to keep this under wraps for a bit longer. Oh well ;)

The Morale mod (part of the Tonnage War mod) will make your success and actions a key component of how well your men perform.

Reckless actions where your men are injured or die will effect your crew's morale, which in turn effects thier performance. Sadely, bad luck will also have an impact, life is hard as a captain.

Go a long time between sinkings and again, this will impact upon your mens performance. Not in a way to punish you, but it will be an impact.

Sink ships and your men will be in top spirits keeping your mens performance at it peak within the limits of thier 'Effeciency', Observer's new name for fatigue, a word that shall from here forth not be spoken of :rotfl:

That sounds great

Bye the way

I am sitting back for a while on sub damage mods now as these discoveries of both yours and Jungmanns own projects are too imprortant to be continulally hampered by varying zones and damage mods.

I am happy in the fact that for the first time, I can set off on a campaign choosing my own crew model and having a better sub.

I just had to release the Hollywood so other hardcore simmers can enjoy some benefit and retain some interest in the game while we wait for the Big projects to complete their work.

I know Jungmann has a better head for maths than I do and is doing a lot of work in this area. He also hold more historic knowledge on the subject of sonars etc.

Can I suggest that unless someone else is looking at the ships damage model in the game, that I start tweaking those files and seeing if anything pops up that is worth looking at.


This way I am not in either of your ways as far as the sub damage model is concerned. I will always pop in if anything is found but I just do not have the time to single handed go through the whole lot as well as not having the patience to test every minute detail.


Like you guys, I just know that SH3 still has loads more potential and it is just a matter of discovering new things.

I also feel that the new SH3 commander interface is fantastic in the way it allows modding these type of files to be optional i.e. crew fatigue models.

Anyway enough chat

Got things to test

[Der Teddy Bar]

Can I suggest that unless someone else is looking at the ships damage model in the game, that I start tweaking those files and seeing if anything pops up that is worth looking at.
This also has been under way for some time as part of the Tonnage War mod. It has been longer than I care to remember.

While I have had success, such as a coastal or small merchant taking 25 minutes to sink with no notification of 'Enemy Unit Destroyed' until the moment that it slides under the water, the other ships such as the C2, C3, Liberty, Victory etc are proving difficult.

Hopefully we can manage to work out a satisfactory compromise.

[gouldjg]

Hi Der Teddy

Thats great news about the 25 min etc. I will be happy with that for sure.

Have you done anything to effect surface battles? in case someone later adds more visible surface battle in missions or campaigns.

Also have you played with resilience.

I have just been playing with it with some results but these are not game worthy results untill I establish the formular, the max and min and the link between morale.

I know that morale step can be changed and am guessing that HP recovery step can be established and altered i.e. the following line

HpStep=10
HpStep1stClass=15

I am wondering what would happen if I put a -10 instead of ten. Maybe men will start getting ill :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: maybe it has no effect until men are actually injured.

I am especially looking forward to how you have a different approach to long term at sea affecting morale.

Do you forsee any problems with current damage or fatigue models or will these changes be easy to compensate for and incorporate into these types of mods.

Basically I would much prefer if only one group works on this issue and you obviously are the best group to do it.

I think we do not want to see a bunch of incompatible mods because we are all using different methods to achieve the same end.

So all in all I think I will just support the latest Hollywood so as many player's have something to keep them going till yours or either Jungmanns new mods are done.

I am now taking a back seat and enjoying the game for a bit so will not be doing any further Hollywoods as it looks like you have pretty much got it all in hand.

Everyone has access to what I have done previously and therfore they can access and usy any file etc etc the usual stuff about not for sale and a little credit etc.

Maybe you guys should share Ideas with Jungmann as he has made some very interesting discoveries of late.

Ps

Please try to make it possible to use different actual drain rates i.e. 24 hours. I am now a converted realtime fan :88) and love it having to plot my daily shifts on the nav map.

If there is anything I can do, Just shout and i will do some testing. In the meantime I will just be tweaking crew HP a little to see if I can get a sick man :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Nedlam]

EDIT: Dumb joke erased.

Please continue with the real important discussion. :)

[gouldjg]

A harder hit would definetly put people of duelling with planes thats for sure.

Der Teddy, Observer & Jungmann

I am in the process of chaning All Crew models in SH3 commander to accommodate any changes you guys or anyone else wish to reccomend or create or to make it easier to accomodate and test new things via commander i.e. example shown below. Saves time having to open different CFGs once we get used to it.

If you wish I can do this for all current available models and post the file for you guys. It saves times when testing different situations.

I need to ask Jscones if he can make his next version of Sh3 commander so that we can get the same choices when it comes to selecting different things via his new medals_crew file in the options Interface of SH3 commander.

At the moment I have my changes with compartments intervals and damage protection levels stored in here though I am sure as Jscones mentioned, we could have a multitude of different Basic.CFG changes in this file.

Would this be helpful to you guys or not? :up:


[7]
Desc=Living Crew Holl
;CREW_ block
0_MoraleMin=0.30
0_MoraleMax=0.60
0_FatigueMax=0.90
0_FatigueStep=0.0175
0_CoefFatigue=0.21
0_QualEffect=1
0_Hp=10
0_Wounded=-0.02
0_Dead=-0.05
0_SunkShips=0.1
0_TorpedoHit=0.05
0_Experience=0
1_MoraleMin=0.30
1_MoraleMax=0.60
1_FatigueMax=0.87
1_FatigueStep=0.0174
1_CoefFatigue=0.21
1_QualEffect=1
1_Hp=11
1_Wounded=-0.02
1_Dead=-0.05
1_SunkShips=0.1
1_TorpedoHit=0.05
1_Experience=20
2_MoraleMin=0.30
2_MoraleMax=0.60
2_FatigueMax=0.85
2_FatigueStep=0.0175
2_CoefFatigue=0.24
2_QualEffect=1
2_Hp=12
2_Wounded=-0.02
2_Dead=-0.05
2_SunkShips=0.1
2_TorpedoHit=0.05
2_Experience=50
3_MoraleMin=0.40
3_MoraleMax=0.70
3_FatigueMax=0.83
3_FatigueStep=0.0176
3_CoefFatigue=0.3
3_QualEffect=1.5
3_Hp=12
3_Wounded=-0.02
3_Dead=-0.05
3_SunkShips=0.1
3_TorpedoHit=0.05
3_Experience=100
4_MoraleMin=0.40
4_MoraleMax=0.70
4_FatigueMax=0.81
4_FatigueStep=0.0178
4_CoefFatigue=0.32
4_QualEffect=2
4_Hp=13
4_Wounded=-0.02
4_Dead=-0.05
4_SunkShips=0.1
4_TorpedoHit=0.05
4_Experience=150
5_MoraleMin=0.40
5_MoraleMax=0.70
5_FatigueMax=0.79
5_FatigueStep=0.0179
5_CoefFatigue=0.34
5_QualEffect=2.5
5_Hp=14
5_Wounded=-0.02
5_Dead=-0.05
5_SunkShips=0.1
5_TorpedoHit=0.05
5_Experience=200
6_MoraleMin=0.50
6_MoraleMax=0.80
6_FatigueMax=0.77
6_FatigueStep=0.0180
6_CoefFatigue=0.4
6_QualEffect=1.5
6_Hp=14
6_Wounded=-0.02
6_Dead=-0.05
6_SunkShips=0.1
6_TorpedoHit=0.05
6_Experience=300
7_MoraleMin=0.50
7_MoraleMax=0.80
7_FatigueMax=0.75
7_FatigueStep=0.185
7_CoefFatigue=0.4
7_QualEffect=2
7_Hp=15
7_Wounded=-0.02
7_Dead=-0.05
7_SunkShips=0.1
7_TorpedoHit=0.05
7_Experience=400
8_MoraleMin=0.50
8_MoraleMax=0.80
8_FatigueMax=0.70
8_FatigueStep=0.0190
8_CoefFatigue=0.42
8_QualEffect=2.5
8_Hp=15
8_Wounded=-0.02
8_Dead=-0.05
8_SunkShips=0.1
8_TorpedoHit=0.05
8_Experience=500
;FATIGUE_COEF block
RegularFactor00=0.00001
SpecificFactor00=0.00675
BadWeather0=0.000001
RegularFactor10=0.00001
RegularFactor11=0.00001
SpecificFactor10=0.00666
SpecificFactor11=0.00634
BadWeather1=0.0000001
RegularFactor20=0.00001
RegularFactor21=0.00001
SpecificFactor20=0.00666
SpecificFactor21=0.00631
BadWeather2=0.000000001
RegularFactor30=0.00001
RegularFactor31=0.00001
SpecificFactor30=0.00666
SpecificFactor31=0.00222
BadWeather3=0.000001
RegularFactor40=0.00001
RegularFactor41=0.00001
SpecificFactor40=0.00222
SpecificFactor41=0.00666
BadWeather4=0.0000000001
RegularFactor50=0.00001
RegularFactor51=0.00001
SpecificFactor50=0.023
SpecificFactor51=0.020
BadWeather5=0.0002
SpecificFactor60=-0.00000000000018
SpecificFactor61=-0.00000000000025
SpecificFactor70=-0.00000000000018
SpecificFactor71=-0.00000000000025
RegularFactor80=0.00001
RegularFactor81=0.00001
SpecificFactor80=0.023
SpecificFactor81=0.020
BadWeather8=0.0002
RegularFactor90=0.00001
SpecificFactor90=0.020
BadWeather9=0.002
RegularFactor100=0.00001
SpecificFactor100=0.020
BadWeather10=0.002
RegularFactor110=0.00001
RegularFactor111=0.00001
SpecificFactor110=0.0450
SpecificFactor111=0.0330
BadWeather11=0

[Observer]

Sounds like a winner! :up:

What does the "f" in the formula mean??

fCoefMoral_per_grad

Is it function? I have a college degree in calculus and never seen this except as 'it is a function of'. Thanks.!

AM I missing an ")" at the end of the formula?

Moral *(10fCoefMorale_per_grad) + fCoefMoral_per_grad*(1-fatigue*(1-CoefFatigue_per_grad) ")"

Boy...this thread has taken off.

The formula is not quite right, but it's pretty close. From what I've been able to tell comparing actual results to those obtained by the formula, the formula should actually be written:

individual crew value = Moral * 10 * CoefMorale + CoefMoral * (1 - fatigue * (1 - CoefFatigue))

AND

individual crew value = Moral * 10 * CoefMorale + CoefMoral * (1 - fatigue * (1 - CoefFatigue)) * QualEffect

Therefore:

Compartment Efficiency = Sum individual crew values from 1 to n

where n = number of crew in the compartment including officers

From what I can tell, the "fCoefMoral_per_grad" represents the variable used in code and has no mathamatical meaning. Therefore fCoefMoral_per_grad = CoeffMoral for each rank.

[Observer]

QualEffect in my finding only seems to work in whole Integer numbers. ??

Example setting a seaman to 0.5 from the default 1 does not make any difference (or 2.5 is truncated to 2 it seems). Only whole numbers. 1, 2, 3. I used that to help slow repairs. Even more exciting is the way you could really get the morale and fatigue coeffiecent which will accept a fractional number, to tweak the 'repair' effect so it just barely balance 100% effeciency.

Then any problems leads to very long repairs, if any at all! :arrgh!: That is what I was working/trying on in a new repair/damage model with a stronger hull. (I never got it finished though :( ). I got a new game to play...taking up my time..plus moving into a new house. (Die Hard is on hold but not 'dead' yet lol).

Then adding in effects from medals for bonus should be accounted for also (saves the day with the bonus to stats). Alot of possibility.

The QualEffect observation is very interesting. It helps explain some of the discrepancies between my model and the actuals in game. They are very close, but not exact.

Now that I think of it, Crew_3 has always behaved oddly when having the required compartment qualification. I think this perfectly explains why. I'd written it off to maxed moral and efficiency, but that doesn't explain the behavior.

I'll have to update the model to take this into account. Just to explain the model a bit, it runs 250 random variations in crew morale and efficiency for each rank, both qualified and non-qualified. I then use these values to randomly populate compartments running about 1500 different variations for crew efficiency and compartment configuration. I then pick off the compartment efficiency numbers (min, medium and max) and build the compartment portion of the basic.cfg. It sure beats the heck out of running 7 million different test cases in game...

[gouldjg]

If you two are pretty agreed on this issue of qualification effect being only able to recognise whole numbers, I may just need to update my settings in sh3 commander.

I thought that if the default game had 1.5 then surely it did account for partial numbers. :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:

&Observer

I did not understand one word of what you said about all those millions of calculations but I like the sound of it :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I am just no good at Maths, Point to to a safety concern and thats a different matter but maths sucks for me.

[Observer]

If you two are pretty agreed on this issue of qualification effect being only able to recognise whole numbers, I may just need to update my settings in sh3 commander.

I thought that if the default game had 1.5 then surely it did account for partial numbers. :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:

Me too. I'm going to make a few changes and check the result.

&Observer

I did not understand one word of what you said about all those millions of calculations but I like the sound of it :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I am just no good at Maths, Point to to a safety concern and thats a different matter but maths sucks for me.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

[Jungman]

It is a very fast way to balance out the numbers to get what you want. Instead of someone like me doing it by 'trial and error' and careful observation. It is taking forever! :D

He knows a numeric program to crunch the simulation fast. The outputs affect the inputs in a feedback way. IE Only a computer program can really beta test it propperly. After a few hundred trials for me, my eyes are bleeding. :rotfl: