Important questions for Beery, Jungman etc on DD issues

[gouldjg]

Hi guys

I have been constantly testing the DDs in this game and need some clarification on this uber DD issue with regards to it not losing the player.

I have just re-installed the game and am now just testing on a standard 1.4b patch.

The only thing I have changed is the DC radius to 15 as per RUB.

Now I started the 505 mission and have had a much better experience than any other test when I have mods installed.

Some points I can confirm

1. I did escape by use of decoys and turning away.

2. All the DD came over to investigate and they hit on decoy spots after a few close shaves.

3. I was watching from external view and noticed better or more random attack methods from DD.

4. If I never would of tweaked the DC to 15 I most probably would be dead now that’s for sure.

5. When I surfaced some miles away, the 3 DDs came chasing me down again. As they were at a distance I then crash dived, set a few decoys and changed course. Again escaped.

6. I was attacked by a plane later on on third attack run it did in fact hit with bombs.

7. Please look below this picture as I have some question that may help clarify a few things under current knowledge.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4317/u5053ca.jpg



Q1 = Was the uber elite DD in the U505 mission?

Q2 = Can someone just refresh my memory as to what the evidence was that it was indeed uber?

Q4 = Is there a possibility that something that was pretty good is now corrupted and that we should try and track this down?.

I love the mods as everyone knows but something is amiss now and I need to know what everyone’s view is on this so I can go a hunting for the problem.

To that end, I first need to discover if in fact there ever was a uber DD or it was just in fact very good as it should have been.

Also I want to stress that I am not pointing any fingers here at all. I am however 100% sure something is not right and it is starting to get worse (is it time to take a step back and re-look at some issues?).

It could be the Hollywood mods, it could be the sensor tweaks, it could be the RND or scr layers, It could be the IC mod.

Can we not all discuss this and try to establish some route cause of the strange DD behaviour.

I am not just ranting here as I have spent the best part of this week evading DD and DC for damage purposes so it was obvious when I tried on stock game.

It is just that I do not really know what has actually been done to the files in other mods, so I am politely asking for some possible theories or solutions.

Thanks for any comments on this issue

:up: :know:

[oRGy]

Hey;

If you open the u505 mission with the mission editor, you should be able to check the skill levels of those dd's. If they're at elite, you could try and change to veteran and see if there's a difference.

Jungman's tweaks are the most comphrensive DD AI changes. IC would only change convoy composition and so on. There are also some minor changes in IuB which I might reverse - in the sim.cfg file if I recall.

[Marhkimov]

Try looking through AI_sensors.dat. Yes, it's a huge file, but it may hold what you are looking for.

But as for myself, I don't believe that the AI is buggy. They're probably behaving exactly as they should.

[CCIP]

Q1 = Was the uber elite DD in the U505 mission?

I can't confirm that, but I would suspect so.

Q2 = Can someone just refresh my memory as to what the evidence was that it was indeed uber?

1) Sonar lock achieved very quickly.
2) Sonar lock maintained until the ship passes over you.
3) Lock nearly impossible to break as long as ship's bow is within 90 degrees of you.
4) Depth charge explosions have no effect on the ship's ability to acquire sonar lock. Depth above 300m has no effect on the ship's ability to acquire sonar lock.
5) Two ships on attack, for all purposes, create a situation that is 100% unsurvivable.

Q4 = Is there a possibility that something that was pretty good is now corrupted and that we should try and track this down?

No, I don't believe that's the case. On the other hand, I'm sure tweaks to sonars could be made.

Mind you, I'm basing this on about a week of constant testing which resulted in values that are now in RUb. :hmm:

[gouldjg]

Back again

Ok here goes

I have opened up the mission with the editor and confirm that all DD were elite.

So why did I not die after I provoked them? I just used some decoys and got the hell out with 73% hull integrity easy peasy.

If I can remember back, I thought it was a particular ship that had the uber problem and maybe that DD was not in 505.

I am just curious about this immpossible to break lock and zero chance of escape.

Try looking through AI_sensors.dat. Yes, it's a huge file, but it may hold what you are looking for.

But as for myself, I don't believe that the AI is buggy. They're probably behaving exactly as they should.

Thanks, I will try the AI_sensors files though I will probably get confused.

I will do some more tests with various mods on the same mission doing the exact same things. As it stands now for me anyway, is the fact that the vannilla DD experience is better than the modded ones. I do however want to use the mods so I need to establish what has changed the behaviour. It has changed that I am 100% certain.

Maybe it is just me being so used to RUB sonar nerf that without it the DD seem inttelligent again.

I just find it funny that everything was so different when comparing stock 1.4b 505 mission to Modded versions of the mission.

Maybe I have just played that mission so many times one way that I am finding it new and exciting the other way.

I am going to try again and get really obvious for the DDs and see if I can escape without decoys.

[Marhkimov]

Even though I am somewhat in doubt about the wiggy AI, I appreciate all of your testing on the issue.

I think as long as you keep an open mind, that should benefit all of us. :up:

[gouldjg]

I was in doubt untill I played 50 times one way and 3 times the other.

I do not want to use Vannilla game but it does in fact look like the DD behaved better in the missions that I have done upto now.

1. I need direct confirmation that there is in fact a situation that late war elite DDs are immpossible to escape from. I do not care if they are harder, its the word immpossible that has always had me using the sonar nerf.

If in fact it is just very hard to escape then my mind can accept a death by late war elite as a good way to die.

If in fact it was supposed to be impossible, why am I escaping from 5 elite DD that came hunting or me?

I know the decoys do do something to confuse DDs and maybe there were just too many of them DC ing for them to get a good lock with 4 decoys in the water.

p.s. when I set silent running, I always also mannually set speed back to 1-2 knots and risk the sinking. Maybe it is that.

Maybe it is the fact that I turn into or directly away from DD to hide broadside. Maybe it is just tactics.

I was going to edit all elite DD out of game and just use vetererns but now I am not so sure about their uberness as evidenc is showing that you can escape them unless of course the offending ship is indeed not in 505 mission.


It is also worth pointing out that every DD came hunting for me in Vannilla 505 mission and when playing modded games only 1 or2 stick around.

Also note that when I surface more than 7000 km away the DD seemed to have me on some radar and came chasing me. That was a good effect of the game as I looked back and saw 3 puffs of smoke on the horizan. I used freecam and whipped over only to discover 3 DD in a line heading my way. Again I have not experienced this in the modded games I have played.

I just need hard nosed factual evidence that their is indeed a uber DD that is immpossible to escape from.

I will investigate further on this issue by tracing all work done on it.

[Beery]

1. I need direct confirmation that there is in fact a situation that late war elite DDs are immpossible to escape from. I do not care if they are harder, its the word immpossible that has always had me using the sonar nerf.

Over time, they tend to be impossible to escape from, and that's the main problem. But they have never been absolutely impossible to escape from. For example, if you use the threat indicator you can quite easily escape from any escort. However, the game's elite and veteran AI are far more deadly than any destroyer ever was in real life. 95% of the time you will die if an elite or even a veteran AI DD gets a fix on your boat. Plus, there are so many of them around that every career is likely to encounter an elite at some point.

If in fact it was supposed to be impossible, why am I escaping from 5 elite DD that came hunting or me?

If they don't have good equipment, they will fail to find you. It's not just the AI level, it's the equipment level too.

As for the U-505 mission, for some reason it's much easier to avoid the DDs in this mission than it is in a campaign. I don't know whether they are elite or not, but it's a whole different ballgame.

By the way, RUb is not meant to make the game suit a specific difficulty level, nor is the goal to make the game suit a certain level of excitement. It's supposed to similate reality as much as possible in the campaign game. The game's destroyers are far more efficient U-boat killers than their real life counterparts were. RUb seeks to lower their efficiency to realistic levels.

[gouldjg]

Beery

Thankyou for the responce, it helped me digest it it more.

Just to confirm, 505 mission does have elite DDs on but that is now irrelevent if what you say about the campaign DD is true.

I remember your old thread but could not find it, I do recall it was tested very deeply and took some time to come up with todays solution. I was just confused as to why I was escaping without any sonar nerfs (easy confusion)

Now I did not think about the difference between the mission and campaign and will look at it when the time comes in my career.

I hope you never felt RUB or any other mod was being blamed as I was just testing the differences noticed through trialing the damage mod changes.

I merely wanted some points of view on this subject for my on benefit as I was starting to wonder if My modded Zones.cfg may actually have been affecting the DDs behaviour.

I have been hooked on RUB since day 1 and I will just make my own changes if I want more or less realism/thrill factor.

I am not griping at mods as I have also noticed how poor vannilla is in certain aspects.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and I look forward to RUB next version.

[Jungman]

The sonar nerf is for people play at 100% realism with no Noise meter or Free camera on. It blinds them by 200m and reduces the sonar angle from 90 degree +- bow to only 60 degree +- bow.

The original mission was set up in vanilla SH3 so that they detect you within 20 seconds set in Sim.cfg.

With the sonar nerf, you are in their angle blind spot and thus very easy to escape and never get detected. You can just sit there and do nothing and they will keep moving on.

I would like through in combo with oRGy depth limitation, to place the blind spot and angle back incremental in tougher for early, middle, late war sonars of which there are 7 models. Ending with the orginal setting of zero blind spot and 90 degree angle (stock game value) for the Type 147A sonar which those DD in U-505 mission have. Then it will be same as stock game to kill you.

I too, can avoid DD easy since I played it hundreds of times testing DC drops and know the DD behaviour so well, it is not a challenge to escape anymore.

[Totenkopf]

I have to agree with you on your concern of the various tweaks to the DD's. I like the sensor config from RUB as it provides a more accurate error margin altho the dumbing down of weapons is IMHO not accurate AFAIK. I have set DC to 30m and reinstated shell damage to stock settings. I find this to be a most challenging encounter especialy with multiple ships and shallow water.

I have been trying different settings with AI Sonar settings as even with RUB the sensors can function through a DC pass. I have also been looking to find a means to use sunk ships as a decoy, they would have shown up as a signal for sure and sitting beside one, for instance, would easily confuse a sonar contact. Also heavy seas and thermal layers would have confused readings as well as the speed of the hunter.

In Sonar.cfg I am trying the current settings and have found a bit of success in that the hunter looses contact more quickly

;Sonar active.
Sonar range factor=1 ;[>=0]
Sonar fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar light factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar waves factor=0.5 ;was 0 ;[>=0]
Sonar speed factor=0.2 ;was 0 ;[>=0]
Sonar aspect=1 ;[>=0]
Sonar enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar noise factor=0.5 ;was 0 ;[>=0]
Sonar sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
Sonar decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Sonar uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

I am unsure weither this has caused the discrepancy or my tweaking of the AI-Sensor.dat. I will test further..

Keep up the good work mate! :up:

[Beery]

I have to agree with you on your concern of the various tweaks to the DD's. I like the sensor config from RUB as it provides a more accurate error margin altho the dumbing down of weapons is IMHO not accurate AFAIK.

I think the RUb sensors are probably still more accurate than real life sensors were. Saying that they're 'dumbed down' is wrong because they'd need a lot more dumbing down if they were to be as useless as the real things. If the standard game had historically accurate and realistic sensor models, the 'dumbed down' label might be accurate, but the standard game had super sensors that were probably more efficient than modern sonar.

In my experience with RUb, RUb's sensors still help destroyers get a far higher kill rate than real life sensors achieved. Either that, or I'm a terrible U-boat sim player.

[Jungman]

Totenkopf (DeadHead or Skull? ) cool nickname. :D

In Sonar.cfg I am trying the current settings and have found a bit of success in that the hunter looses contact more quickly

;Sonar active.
Sonar range factor=1 ;[>=0]
Sonar fog factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar light factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar waves factor=0.5 ;was 0 ;[>=0]
Sonar speed factor=0.2 ;was 0 ;[>=0]
Sonar aspect=1 ;[>=0]
Sonar enemy speed=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar noise factor=0.5 ;was 0 ;[>=0]
Sonar sensor height factor=0 ;[>=0]
Sonar already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
Sonar decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Sonar uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]


Nope. :know: This is the Sensors.cfg file, there is no Sonar.cfg file, except the part inside the file. This Sensors.cfg file applies to YOUR crew active sonar, not the hunter DD active sonar. So you crew will be more sloppy at detecting a ship, which may be fair enough. Heavy seas should make it harder for your crew to detect.

The decay time is how long the sonar guy will continue to track your contact before losing it after it was lost. Leads to the magic active sonar working on the surface for a minute or two.

Was you want to change is found within Sim.cfg. look for the Sonar entry. :yep: That is the Enemy active sonar of DD.

[Marhkimov]

Gouldjg,

I play tested a modified version of the 'U-505' siingle mission, and my results were much different than yours. A picture summary should suffice...

The red mark is my u-boat and direction. The orange arrows are the destroyer directions.



A minute after I sink the carrier, all DD's are frantic and disorganized.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/3738/214ig.th.jpg (http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=214ig.jpg)

15 minutes later, a few DD's make passes at me. (my red mark is a little off)
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/6507/222tx.th.jpg (http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=222tx.jpg)

2 minutes after, four DD's gain simultaneous sonar lock.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/457/241ch.th.jpg (http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=241ch.jpg)

Soon after, all five DD's are in on the action.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/6210/239vs.th.jpg (http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=239vs.jpg)



My personal conclusion... These guys are professional u-boat murderers. :o

I run a hybrid version of RUb 1.44, IUB 1.01, SH3Cmdr with your newest hollywood damage pack, Atmosphere mod 2.0, HT 1.46, and a million other mods and personal tweeks. That probably won't help you much, so you might be interested in examining my files. Just gimme a specific list of whatever files you want to see, and I'll put them up on rapidshare.

[gouldjg]

Yes

I think I was scared by rumours and when I played stock it must be the fact that they behaved differently because of the sonar being back on default.

I reinstalled mods and like you say, there is not enough difference to worry about as they can still kill.

Also the fact that I have played 505 100s of times one way then swapped to the other.

Pannic over :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Thanks for info

[ICBM]

Gouldjg,

I play tested a modified version of the 'U-505' siingle mission, and my results were much different than yours. A picture summary should suffice...


I don't get it with Taskforces...sometimes they act OK and hunt you don't like a dog after sinking a Cap.ship (VERY rarely in my case), but mostly they just break formation , move around and doing nothing.

See my topic about another example of bad DD behavure:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=44959
Something's still fishy with the DD's

Mods used: RuB 1.44, Hollywood, latest convoys mod.

[Hartmann]

I did a test with u-505 mission and now i think that something is really wrong .

first i tried to shink the carrier with two electric torps , but failed.
the scorts don´t react well and continues his course. :huh:
i know tha electric torps don´t make trail and i decided to surface an see what happens.

Only one destroyer start firing and running to my position, so i crash dive. but the destroyer was unable to reach my position despite i full raise the periscope and the snorkel. he was circling and dropping charges at 3 km :nope:

i decided to aproach to the destroyer with the mast out.

some planes passed over me and nothing, Afortunately a plane see my periscope and did the first attack run but after of several minutes .

only in this moment the destroyer change his course and start to chase me, i left the periscope and the snorkel out and i was able to fire two torpedos to the destroyer , with one hit.

finally i was destroyed , but with a very bad tactics. if i launch the torpedos and crash dived to 100 meters in silent running perhaps i could scape easly.

And only one destroyer come to chase, the others continues his course.

It was suposed that all come to me looking for destroy me, but not ..

could be that some mod , or my instalation makes dds stupid or confused :roll:

rub 144 +hT milk cows + 16 km visibility mod

The early and mid (maybe till 1944) war DD's seem pretty deaf, especially at wind faster than 7-8 m/sec. I regularly attack convoys and leave undetected. Even being detected I usually manage to escape unpunished, escorts (elite!) make one more or less precise DC run and almost always loose me which is rather boring and unreal. History tells the contrary: usually uboats suffered n-hours DC attacks even in early period of war. I tried to change AI_sensors.dat and Sim.cfg, but did not succeed. How can I tweak sensitivity of hydrophone?

[Jungman]

There is a value that seems to be the sensitivity in AI_Sensors.dat.

It is about .01 to .03 for all seven passive sonar. try using a bigger number. they end in the letter "P" such as search for "QCEP" =(0.027) It follows a word called "sens" in hex single point float.

Also in Sim.cfg try these.

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1) make bigger
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0] lessen to zero
Speed factor=15 ;[kt] increase.
Noise factor=1.0 ;[>=0] ???

Mant times the DD are moving faster than 15 kt and they will not hear you. Increase this higher.

The one DD will come look for you, as an escort, moving so fast, he cannot hear you, then turns around and moves fast back to the convoy above 15 kt and no longer hears you at that speed.