German Navy ExPack1.01 Released Plus Hotfix

[Cdre Gibs]

Xxxxx

[The Avon Lady]

And before you ask beery, the answer is No.
I've immediately lost interest in this mod.

I won't use it in principal.

Grow up.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

:rock: :rock: BEAUTIFUL STUFF CDR GIBBS!! WTG!!! :rock: :rock:

[oRGy]

Cool, that Vorpostenboot saves commander1980 a job.

Would it be possible to include these ships in IuB?

[oRGy]

Hey Gibs - sent you a PM.

[AG124]

:up:

Looks great - can't wait to try it. But what is the Vorpostenboot, is it a type of escort?

And before you ask beery, the answer is No.

I've immediately lost interest in this mod.

I won't use it in principal.

Grow up.

No loss

I must have missed something earlier, what is this all about. :-?

[LukeFF]

I won't use it in principal.

Grow up.

Ditto that

[CWorth]

Same goes for me.I wont use this mod at all.And I recommend no one else use this mod as well.


Grow up and stop being so childish...

[Marhkimov]

Same goes for me.I wont use this mod at all.And I recommend no one else use this mod as well.


Grow up and stop being so childish...

What are you (and the Avon Lady) talking about?????? Seriously. :roll:

Unless you cite specific facts as to why you disapprove of this mod, I don't think it is very nice that you are dissing Cdr. Gibb's hard work...

[oRGy]

Much appreciated Gibs. :)

[Marhkimov]

Can someone explain to me what all of this 'negative hooplah' is all about???

All of the negativity in this thread is scaring me from downloading it. As much as I want it, I'm not risking anything...

[oRGy]

Hi;

Don't worry, the drama is now over. It was over using the ships in RuB; Gibs didn't want this to happen originally as he felt that Beery has been overly rude to him in the past and so didn't deserve to use the models; however Gibs has now graciously agreed to unconditional use.

Regards

[Marhkimov]

Ok oRGy, thanks for clearing it up.

These boats look super awesome. Very good job!!! :up: :up: :up:

[Rubini]

Cdr Gibs,

Great work!

Can I use these new ships on HT mod?
Can you explain the differences between Bismarck and Tirpitz?
And about this new Type 36A and Type 34?
I already read your explanation about the Vorpostenboot. I guess that it is borrowed of the Armed Trawler, but what is the 3D objects/size differences for all these new units? (sorry for the dumb questions... :D )

Rubini.

[Marhkimov]

Don't worry, there should be very educational answers coming up. :up:

[Pants]

Thanks must also goto Cmdr Pants for his research into these ships.

no worries mate anytime ;)

[gdogghenrikson]

add those to The harbor traffic mod

[rulle34]

Awsome job :up:

[WolfyBrandon]

humm, I seem to be having a problem with this mod... :damn:

I'm useing JSGME to install mods and I have set it up like all the other mods I have and since I have the british southhampton light cruiser, additional merchants, and Flottenbogtlier unit mods installed I just made a copy of my EnglishNames.cfg and added the 3 new ship lines at the end of it. Placed the file in data/sea/ and installed the mod. Now when I go into my game when SH3 is at the loading screen when you first start SH3 up it gets about half way and then gives me an error that the program needs to close... I uninstalled the mod and its fine...

Any ideas what might of wen't wrong and how I can fix it? :cry:

Thanks,
Wolfy

[WolfyBrandon]

I set it up so that it will work with JSGME.

I only copyed the 3 entrys out of the .txt file, i didnt copy the text file itself, so I didnt replace it with the .txt file, and I double checked just in case and its fine.

I checked the folders and they all look correct, so I don't know whats going on, its kinda late I guess ill look into it tomarrow.

Wolfy

[Schultzy]

WOW!

It's about all i can think of to say!!

Great stuff! Thank you! :up:

[El Dude]

Oh yes great stuff!

Thanks.

[oRGy]

Tested it last night and works fine for me.

:up:

Rubini - there are good descriptions of the operational histories for all the 36 classes (and tirpitz, etc) on that german-navy.de site, if you don't know of it already.

[Sailor Steve]

Simply lovely. Can't wait to see more.

[Letum]

I won't use it in principal.

Grow up.

Ditto that
ditto

[iambecomelife]

It's great to see a real Tirpitz. Now I can create a single mission to Russia where the Admiralty loses track of her whereabouts, panics, and gets most of a convoy sunk by ordering it to scatter... :hmm:

[Type941]

interesting mod. Who made that Tirpitz skin? Im asking because you are distributing the mod without any credits or readme - which is not cool by me.

[Cdre Gibs]

Yep its based off your skin, I had to fix it to get rid of the Bismark Ghost Camo marks in it. And your right, there is no readme because I forgot it and it Would have stated the above.

My apologies hey, Late night and I just plain forgot the readme :(

But its such a distinct skin that I feel there is no fear that ppl wont know its based on your skin. The reason I choose it should be self eveident, its just plain good. :)

BUT never fear, because I was so tired I actually made 3 blunders, 1 is the missing readme with your skin credit in it. The other 2 are IF u look real close, is that on the Type36A and the Vorpostenboot, the Flag is upside down. :lol:

I only noticed it today :-?

So soon there will be a hotfix with also due credit in the readme.

Again my apologies for the oversight.

[Type941]

didn't want to be a pain, just after that X software thingy, you kind of start watching things, thanks for the reply. Missing an alpha on it? Hmm.. totally forgot. :)

[oRGy]

Hi Gibs;

Played around a bit.

First, the reason some people are getting CTD's is because you included a reference for the Arado on the Tirpitz, which is from sergbuto's float planes mod. (I agree with this reference). If you have it installed (e.g. from IuB) everything works ok.

Secondly, I noticed that the stats for the Tirpitz vs the Bismarck aren't what are on that german-navy.de site. There are minor differences between the classes such as speed and tonnage.

Thirdly, I tried to delete the two rear lifeboats from the 36A as the reference schematics don't include them and it helps distinguish from the the Typ 34. Via pack3d, I learnt that these two boats are referenced as:

NDD_Type34_boat03.obj
NDD_Type34_boat04.obj

Via wings3d (crappy program, but seemed to import obj better than Max), I just deleted the objects, saved the obj (so its a 'blank' object) and used Pack3d to reimport them.

Worked fine, except... The two rear turrets seem to have disappeared in the process. Hm. I checked the 34 vs 36A eqp file and I noticed differences, but I'm not sure what to do about them or if they're relevant. Do you have any ideas on this? As I would really like to see the 36A without those rear lifeboats.

Fourthly, I'm concerned that I might be getting a crash with either the new VPBoot or the 36A in some situations. I set up a single mission which I uploaded here:

http://rapidshare.de/files/7132376/EinSeiteigeKampf.rar.html

Problem is, about 3 minutes into the game (I think when a ship comes in range), I get a crash every time, referencing sh3sim.act, offset 0000196a. However this is on top of Improved U-Boat which includes lots of stuff. Maybe you can test and see if there's anything the matter. (Would much rather it's a problem with your new boats than with my installation, which is the base for IuB v102...)

Cheers
oRGy

[Cdre Gibs]

I take it that the CTD is happening after you changed the type36A and deleted the boats and the guns went missing. We (the VTC team) did test after test in a mission with 4 x 36A's, 4 x 34's 4 x Hipper, 1 x Tirpitz and 1 x Bismark v's 4 x Somers 2 x Nevarda, 2 x Iowa and 1 x Essex with no dramas at all. Over 4 days we ran these test - at game night time, day time, rough seas, calm seas, fog, U name it we did it. The only issue we had was when we added planes to the mix and the amount of Flack that went up caused a FPS drop.

There for I strongly suspect its what you have done to the 36A thats causing your problem.

[Cdre Gibs]

No sweat Type941, we all forget things, just look at my goof above :lol:

[mw2000]

Thank you Cdr Gibs this is what I have been waiting for :D. I have made a mission involving german and british taskforces but I have a problem with the Tirpitz. If I set any speed of the ship in the editor, after 10 seconds in the mission the ships propellers will stop working and the ship eventually stops. It even does this at a setting of 30kts. I am also using the Bismarck in the mission and that works fine. Anyone else experiencing this? and are there any suggestions that I can use? :hmm:

Thanks again Cdr Gibs and to Type941 for the excellent skin. :up:

[Cdre Gibs]

Well bugger me, thats a new 1. I take it that you have set the same speed on all the way points an what not.

See as stated in a few posts above we did test these and no real issues were found (besides my oversight on the flags lol). I really am perplexed as to why it would do that.
Can u do me a favour pls, start your game up and go to the Museum. Goto the German section and open up the Tirpitz. Then let it run in the Museum for say 20 minutes and see if it stops moving. Now beaware that the plotted course in the Museum is a circle and when the ship comes to the waypoint to turn she will slow right down. BUT she will speed back up again after the turn. The reason I ask this is mainly to see if its the Tirpitz thats broke or if something's wrong with your map.

Pls get back to me on what you find, thx

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Cdr. Gibbs... you have PM sir :)

[Cdre Gibs]

oRGy

Its the Map. You set the speed for the Vorpostenboots to 28Knt's and the ships can only do 15 top's. Each time they got to the first way point - CTD, and guess what, thats 2-3 minutes into the mission.

I dunno how the hell you did it but you did.

See below for full mission run with map speeds fixed:

Over by the Vorpostenboots - No Problems detected.
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/01.jpg

I also noticed that you were trying to test the KGV Long Range Arty.

KGV Firing.
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/02.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/03.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/04.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/05.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/06.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/07.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/08.jpg

As you can see its affective
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/09.jpg

Now the fun bit - Revenge :)
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/10.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/11.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/12.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/13.jpg
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/14.jpg

End Mission
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/15.jpg

The only thing's I changed was the speed given to all the Vorpostenboots, placed the map into multimissions rather than single play (dont have a single play folder anymore I deleted it) and the flag fix, this does not include the removal of the boats off the Type36A however.

Here is the map redone.
http://www.git.com.au/~voyager_tek/EinSeiteigeKampf.zip

[andy_311]

I d/load the mod a few days ago and i think it's great,but I have 1 question.
How do I get the Tirpitz to appear in the campaign any help would be appreciated.

[mw2000]

Cdr Gibs

The tirpitz works fine in the museum and in the editor. But when I use the Bismarck in the same mission as the Tirpitz, the propeller problem starts. The mission contains Bismarck, Tirpitz and Hipper for the germans and KGV, Nelson and Revenge for the brits. They are all set do a speed of 10kts and when they are close they battle it out. The Tirpitz seems to stop (no propellers and no smoke coming from the stack) but it has a set waypoint like the other ships. The only thing I done to the files was to remove the Arado plane info because I don't use that mod. Can anyone verify this problem? :hmm:

[oRGy]

Ah - thanks for the update Gibs. Silly me! That's a relief though.

Anyway, do you have any idea if the 36A can have the rear lifeboats removed? They'd be the main thing for me now.

(Also, it would be nice if the 36A had a different camo scheme to the type 34, there are several interesting ones on that german-navy.de site: I would try to do it myself but for time)

Oh - btw, what overlay mod are you using in those map shots?

Cheers

[Marhkimov]

Definately a different camo scheme is needed to differentiate between the 34 and the 36A. As they are right now, making them look intentical beats the purpose of calling them different models...

[Marhkimov]

Definately a different camo scheme is needed to differentiate between the 34 and the 36A. As they are right now, making them look intentical beats the purpose of calling them different models...

Well heres the thing, The Type36A wili use multiple skins, so guess what, get skinning :)

Knock ya self's out :lol:

Oooh, even better... Thanks Gibs! :up:

[sergbuto]

Cdr Gibs,

It is increasingly starting to look like you avoid giving appropriate credits when you use somebodyelse´s work unless you are pointed out. The second (grey) skin in the Type36 folder is also made by Type941 but it is not mentioned in readme. In turn, I also think that Type36 is based on multi-skinned version of Type34 from my mod of multi-skinned warships.

[oRGy]

Thanks for the update Gibs.

[Type941]

@ Gibs, I know you probably don't mean bad, but please, before you make releases, make sure that if there's anything YOU haven't personally made, find out who did and credit them properly. Just because it's 'popular' mod doesn't mean it's generic, if you know what I mean. In other words - please don't use my work unless you credit it properly. I've spent time and research doing certain skins, and when it's just 'thanks to whoever made this' - sorry, that's not good enough. Attitudes like that would cause me personally to stop releasing any future projects and pull the current ones off line - it's black and white really when it comes to that. It's all about giving respect to people that did something you didn't or couldn't do yourself.

The second (grey) skin in the Type36 folder is also made by Type941 but it is not mentioned in readme. In turn, I also think that Type36 is based on multi-skinned version of Type34 from my mod of multi-skinned warships.

I've made this - though I don't think I've used your skin Serg, as a base otherwise I'd have said that. I use a 'clone-tooled' desaturated, and added proper color hues version of original Bismarck/KGV skins for all my Kreigsmarine Mod and Home FLeet mod.


http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9200/previewtype34c5ny.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/6854/previewtype34c2preview22yg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[sergbuto]

It could very well be, with so many mods out nowdays its easy to loose track of who has done what.

If it is indeed another Type941 skin then I'm more than happy to say so in the readme. I was however under the impression it was the standed skins, but as I said, to many mods to keep track of.

Same deal with the multiskin issue sergbuto, if it is indeed yours cool, but to be honest I have no bloody idea. What with me D/Ling bits I like and tinkering myself with other ppls mods, my mods, standed files I'm not surpised that I can't keep track of it all.
That is not a good excuse for mis-presenting somebodyelse's work so that ppl would think it was done by you.

I think that from now on I'm just gonna use a blank broad statement to say something alone the lines of "To any/all mods that I have expanded on and you know who you are that made them - Thank you" , and not have to bother trying to work out what was bloody what !
I guess it is a good idea for the X1-Software company so that they can use any mod they wish for their purposes.

I also dont care for your tone Sir.
That's okay as long as you care for respecting somebodyelse's work.

[Marhkimov]

Not that I care or anything, but is it TOO MUCH to ask that you mention one or two names? I would totally understand your dilemma if the credits came out something like this:

The original ship was created by Jack, who modified Greg's Delta file and reskinned Howard's textures. Also, Mark added cranes to the ship and alterred the config settings. Tom and Jason remodelled the tower, and Zach added the reflections. So all in all, thank you to Jack, Greg, Howard, Mark, Tom, Jason, and Zach for making such a beautiful ship.

But credits are usually never like that. I mean, at the very least you could have mentioned Sergbuto and Type941. You know, they aren't asking for a whole lot...

Type36A cloned from Sergbuto's multi-skinned Type34.
Tirpitz and Type36A skins by Type941.

Or if that's still too much for you, you could always simply mention them...

Thanks to Sergbuto and Type941 for their fine work, which I have modded.



Really, they aren't asking for very much other than some recognition. For all of their hard work, they deserve at least something...

[andy_311]

I have 1 question. How do I get the Tirpitz to appear in the campaign any help would be appreciated.

To do that you would need to edit the Campain files, noticably the SCR file. However I believe that the HT mod is using the Bismark as a subsitute Tirpitz. If you have this mod just do a search of the HT Mods SCR file and look for the Tirpitz group. Inside that group you will see the ship BBBismark, change that to BBTirpitz and it will now show up in campain mode whenever the Tirpitz group is run. This can all be done with notepad.

Thanks for the info the only HT mod i got is 1.46 but when I installed it Iwas in early 44 hope this is the mod your talking about.,

the other thing I would like to know is where is this mission you are all going on about? is it d/loadable at the momment and where can I get it from.
thanks

[JScones]

This is the Standed Credit Statement from now on in all my mods:

VTC Standed Credit Statement:
If any other Mods/skins/Tools are included in this Mod or were used to create this Mod, all credits for those said Mods/Skins/Tools goes to the original creater of those Mods/skins/Tools. There are to many to state/List and we/you all know who they/you are.

Its not subject to change.
Disgusting. :nope:

I'm with marhkimov et al. It's not too much to ask that you respect those that have taken the time and effort to create the original piece of work by taking the time and effort yourself to appropriately credit their work.

Otherwise, well, you know what backlash a certain software company has received here...

[Beery]

...all credits for those said Mods/Skins/Tools goes to the original creater of those Mods/skins/Tools. There are to many to state/List and we/you all know who they/you are...

How many are there? RUb has over 150 credit listings. How many is too many?

[Marhkimov]

RUb has over 150 credit listings.

Of all people, I would be perfectly ok with letting Beery off the hook... yet even he still manages to give credit where credit is due...

[The Avon Lady]

There's a pattern here. :down:

I think it' worth repeating my original post at the top of this thread:
And before you ask beery, the answer is No.
I've immediately lost interest in this mod.

I won't use it in principal.

Grow up

[sergbuto]

This is the Standed Credit Statement from now on in all my mods:

VTC Standed Credit Statement:
If any other Mods/skins/Tools are included in this Mod or were used to create this Mod, all credits for those said Mods/Skins/Tools goes to the original creater of those Mods/skins/Tools. There are to many to state/List and we/you all know who they/you are.

Its not subject to change.

In that case, I warn you, do not use any of my material or my mods.

[sergbuto]

There's a pattern here. :down:

Yes.

It is one thing to present screenies of 3d models from Espona collection or Battlefield 1942 and in a way to give an impression that they are made by a presenting person by ignoring direct questions from people who do not know. This only causes a smile from people who are aware of the model origin.

And it is another thing to take advantage of somebodyelse's work and actually release that as presenter's own creation and when pointed out to blame own memory like the material used is not available any more and it is impossible to look up the info about authors.

[Marhkimov]

Lets say Tom builds a house and so does Harry, and they live next door to each other, Now lets say 1 day Tom decides to put in a french bay window in the front of his house, Harry after seeing how good this looks decides to do the same. Now I ask you, did Harry use Toms window ??

The answer is of course NO.

The answer is YES... Although no windows were physically taken, the idea of Tom's windows were planted into Harry's mind. I am an english lit major so trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about copyright laws and copyright infringement. You might think it is obsurd, but even ideas should be credited.

I'm not here to bust your chops about what you've done in the past, because quite frankly that doesn't even matter. I just hope that in the future you would consider writing a short reference to certain people and mods. It really shouldn't matter if you took directly or just took their ideas, just leave them a thank you note...




Honestly, Gibbs, I don't even know why I care so much... :nope:

Oh, that's right... Some bastard in real life took some "ideas" from one of my thesis papers, and needless to say, he gained some acclaim... Also needless to say, I got didly squat for it. Not even a worthless thank you...

[JScones]

IIRC I looked at what serg had done ealier and did the same, for that I get all this CRAP!!! I always work off a set of original vanilla backed up files so as NOT to get any corruption when I do my tweaking. This does not stop me or any1 else LOOKING at what some1 else has done and utilised that very same technique. This is how it can get confusing. And just because I or any1 else may not remember every damn lil thing that they looked at and decided to use that same technique does not give any1 the right to get prissy.
Oh, so you merely plagiarised serg’s work. Well, that’s different…NOT!

You see, the difference is, Harry realised that having his window too similar to Tom’s may create friction, so he modified it sufficiently, so that the thought of merely copying Tom was not as obvious.

Remember Bright Tunes Music Corp. v. Harrisongs Music, Ltd. et al, 420 F. Supp 177 (1976)? Or, more commonly, My Sweet Lord v He's So Fine?

Here’s all that is needed (taken from the next release of SH3 Commander):
- Added ability to randomise gramophone tracks (based on original concept of JXP's)
- Added ability to adjust wave height (based on original concept of TimeTraveller's)

Clear conscience.

[chaos]

i have a clean vanilla version of sh3 and i've been modding it with our team with no other peoples mods, because we wanted to add new ships and skins merchant and warships.so far we have ship pack 1 with 15 new ships.
Well i was going to release our mod..but with all this back biting and complaining i dont think i'll bother now :down:

[Type941]

Gibs = Unless you credit me properly for the skins I made - you do not have a permission to use them.

This is as simple as they come. Either respect my request or make it on your own.

[sergbuto]

I dont see what all the fuss is about.
That is presicely the problem.

IIRC I looked at what serg had done ealier and did the same, for that I get all this CRAP!!! I always work off a set of original vanilla backed up files so as NOT to get any corruption when I do my tweaking. This does not stop me or any1 else LOOKING at what some1 else has done and utilised that very same technique. This is how it can get confusing. And just because I or any1 else may not remember every damn lil thing that they looked at and decided to use that same technique does not give any1 the right to get prissy.

One thing is to use the same technique and another to use the same file from somebodyelse's mod. There are some ways to tell that by f.e. leaving certain changes in the file, although admittingly they can be also presicely copied by a simple comparison of the two files. But somehow I find hard to believe you after mentioned above "memory losses" and failure to give appropriate credits in obvious cases, such as Type941's skins. Why did not you apply the same technique to any other model, f.e. Vorpostenboot which needs the multi-skin option much more than Type36?

[sergbuto]

i have a clean vanilla version of sh3 and i've been modding it with our team with no other peoples mods, because we wanted to add new ships and skins merchant and warships.so far we have ship pack 1 with 15 new ships.
Well i was going to release our mod..but with all this back biting and complaining i dont think i'll bother now :down:

Why would anyone be afraid of back biting and complaning with respect to credits and author rights after a mod realease which was made from scratch by the releasing person?

OR

Why would anyone be afraid of back biting and complaning with respect to credits and author rights after a mod realease where somebodyelse's work is appropriately credited?

[oRGy]

Excuse me, but I see an extreme lack of politeness and respect on all sides here.

Modders seem to think that because cdr gibs forgot / was careless about credits in a readme, that he's the new X1 Software and deserves to be flamed to hell and back.

This is lame. While credit should be given where it's due, whatever happened to just asking in a polite tone to add the credit? Or via PM? Instead of having a ****ing ridiculous flame war and creating huge divisions?

Some modders here seem to forget that unless you make a wholly original work (like a new texture, sound, or text), Ubisoft owns your work, you do NOT. This is why no-one has sued X1 Software and never will.

Therefore if someone forgets to credit you for discovering say, multiple skin textures or some fatigue tweak, it's not a legal issue. It's a moral one, if you feel you deserve recognition. But the way to sort this out is privately and with respect, in a spirit of cooperation etc. But I am not seeing this here.

This reminds me precisely why mod communities are at the end of the day a bad idea - people have the illusion of ownership and get the idea that they're some sort of real game developers. They're not - they're fiddlers and tweakers with somebody elses game and to develop flaming egos as a result is pathetic.

I'm sure people have noted that I try to be constructive around here. But if some people here are stirring the pot in order to suit their own personal agendas, I simply will not work in such an environment.

[Type941]

@ Orgy - first of all, game makers need modders. Those who sue them are shooting themselves in a foot.

About your tirade - yours, is the first actual flaming post here actually. What serg and myself are a bit amuzed by, is the lack of response to a particular question - "will you give me credit for my work"? Because the answer we go thus far was "I'll just give credit to all, as it's too bothersome to look up who did what". And clearly we are not OK with that since we easily see our work, as part of mod, but not credited properly. If you think that's an attitude problem, I suggest you go get yourself a perspective.

Again, all Gibs had to do was to answer to the previouspolite requests. His answer is not satisfactory thus far, and neither is it respectful of the requests. Requests! So if people stop answering to requests, than indeed why bother with game modding full stop? don't generalise that all this is illegal. Not all mods are illegal, many game makers produce their products in a way that they are mod friendly, releasing SDKs with the games, etc. It's actually encouraged. I can name you a few games from different genres where it's a normal practice.

[oRGy]

Of course its normal practice - well except maybe for Ubi - but what I'm saying is that modders shouldn't invoke legal threats against other forum members when the legal basis for such threats dont exist in reality.

For your skins (which are excellent btw) such a legal basis probably does exist.

I agree you have been reasonably polite here. But there are others, who consistently adopts a sour and insulting tone guaranteed to aggravate someone with a short temper.

As I said before, the best way to resolve these situations is through PM or email, politely. Making snide remarks in public like "Disgusting" or "Oh, so you merely plagiarised serg’s work." just because Gibs is irritated by the tone of some members and hence counter-reacts is counter-productive as hell.

It's easy to be self-righteous and brand others as just evil, as 'community outcasts' or whatever - but it's also stupid, unnecessary, and pointless. It just aggravates whoever you're trying to "teach".

Gibs produced new units - you'd think it would be a good thing. Not here though...

[sergbuto]

Forums are forums. They are created for a discussion of different things and moral issues are not an exception. X1 Software was brought up exactly because of signs of similarity between the moral behind the X1 Software thing and this situation.

How many times one should ask politely for a deserved correction? Is one time should be enough? Or should it be two or maybe five times?

The basis for cooperation is indeed respect which was broken in the very beginning and repeatedly denied.

[chaos]

Why would anyone be afraid of back biting and complaning with respect to credits and author rights after a mod realease which was made from scratch by the releasing person?

OR

Why would anyone be afraid of back biting and complaning with respect to credits and author rights after a mod realease where somebodyelse's work is appropriately credited?
i am not afraid of anything because this mod was made by our team and no outside mods, it's just put me off releasing it to this comunity because of a few people who act childish and argue and spam up forums when a simple PM could suffice.

[oRGy]

Forums are forums. They are created for a discussion of different things and moral issues are not an exception. X1 Software was brought up exactly because of signs of similarity between the moral behind the X1 Software thing and this situation.

How many times one should ask politely for a deserved correction? Is one time should be enough? Or should it be two or maybe five times?

The basis for cooperation is indeed respect which was broken in the very beginning and repeatedly denied.


Huh? X1 was selling modders work for profit.

Gibs is releasing new units for free.

What a ridiculous comparison!

As far as I can see it - anyone can check the thread for themselves -, the history goes like this:

1) Gibs releases units, but doesn't mention that he used type941's skins
2) type941 immediately tells gibs that he hasn't included credits and that this 'is not cool by me'
3) Gibs apologises, saying:


My apologies hey, Late night and I just plain forgot the readme. But its such a distinct skin that I feel there is no fear that ppl wont know its based on your skin. The reason I choose it should be self eveident, its just plain good.

And that


soon there will be a hotfix with also due credit in the readme. Again my apologies for the oversight.

Where's the "disrespect from the beginning" here?

4) After about a page of fruitful and respectful discussion, you launch in with the comment that

It is increasingly starting to look like you avoid giving appropriate credits when you use somebodyelse´s work unless you are pointed out. The second (grey) skin in the Type36 folder is also made by Type941 but it is not mentioned in readme. In turn, I also think that Type36 is based on multi-skinned version of Type34 from my mod of multi-skinned warships.

That rather snide quote is precisely what caused the furore.

5) Gibs responds that

I was however under the impression it was the standed skins, but as I said, to many mods to keep track of.

Then he suggests that



I think that from now on I'm just gonna use a blank broad statement to say something alone the lines of "To any/all mods that I have expanded on and you know who you are that made them - Thank you" , and not have to bother trying to work out what was bloody what!

Which is an understandable response. I know quite well personally from putting together IuB that it's a head-wrecker trying to keep all the credits and documentation up to date.

What does he get for this? Instant condemnation from again, you that


That is not a good excuse for mis-presenting somebodyelse's work so that ppl would think it was done by you. ... I guess it is a good idea for the X1-Software company so that they can use any mod they wish for their purposes.


Again, you imply malice where there was none, and compare him to X1 software. This gives the go-ahead for JSCones and Avon Lady to issue their waves of condemnation, which further inflames the situation.

Need I go on?

About the best thing I can say about your behaviour is that you no tact.

Also note that you have also sucessfully dissuaded others from releasing units to this community. (Previous poster)

[Beery]

There's a pattern here. :down:

I think it' worth repeating my original post at the top of this thread:
And before you ask beery, the answer is No.
I've immediately lost interest in this mod.

I won't use it in principal.

Grow up

Hehe, this Cdr Gibs guy is his own worst enemy. Apparently he's a pretty talented modder, but he's managed to alienate a lot of people, and for some reason his mods don't get much word-of-mouth attention. A pity he doesn't want to be part of the wider community. A pity he's not willing to share, because apart from anything else it would gain him more respect. But, as he likes to say, it's no loss. I'm certainly not crying about not being able to use his models in RUb - I wasn't looking for new ship models anyway, and RUb is almost at the end of its development cycle. People will just have to figure out how to install over RUb themselves. One thing's for sure, if it comes down to a decision about which mod to install, RUb or Gibs's ships, I'm pretty sure I know which one people will choose, LOL.

[oRGy]

Uhh, Beery, in case you didn't notice, he retracted that statement a good while back and has allowed unconditional use.

[Beery]

Uhh, Beery, in case you didn't notice, he retracted that statement a good while back and has allowed unconditional use.

I didn't notice. I only caught this thread in the last 24 hours. Unfortunately once you post something, if it gets quoted you don't get to do a full retraction. Anyway, as I said, I'm not looking for new models for RUb at the moment, so Gibs's original wish is respected.

[oRGy]

I propose that in future forum members follow these steps:

If you think that your work is not being credited appropriately

1) Email or use the boards private messaging system and politely request that said person credit you appropriately in an updated version.

2) If this fails (wait a day or two), you can bring up the matter in a forum thread. Respectfully request that they credit you appropriately.

3) As a last resort, you can publicly state that you will not grant permission for them to use your work if they do not credit you. Be firm but polite.

[The Avon Lady]

That has to be one of the most repugnant posters popularly posted on the Internet by people who should have a bit of consideration. :down:

[Beery]

Yes, it's rather unfortunate that certain forum members tried to bring that up...

Perhaps some consideration needs to be given to the fact that Gibs said it in the first place. Once it's said, it's said. If people like Gibs don't want what they say taken at face value, maybe they should think about that before posting. Retracting it is only okay if ALL affected parties agree. You can't unilaterally retract a statement. It's disingenuous.

It's not like Avon Lady did anything 'wrong' by responding to it.

[Gizzmoe]

Yes, it's rather unfortunate that certain forum members tried to bring that up. Trying to create friction amongst members is in my book dishonourable behaviour. There should be no room for stirring up trouble on these boards.

Gibs has started that whole thing and it wouldn´t have come so far if he had shown some professional behaviour. He has created that friction, not the others! That "Credit Statement" was a joke and I simply cannot understand that you even tried to defend that statement, saying that it was also difficult to track everything in your IUb project. As if his tiny mod is comparable to IUb...

I don´t think it´s very nice that you try to shift the blame!

[Kaleun]

@orgy


..get a life, that poster is totally unacceptable! To mock the less fortunate than yourself, for a minor spat on a forum.

To post such a thing makes you the retarded one! not the people that are unfortunate enough to be born (or develop) conditions/syndromes that leave them less able than the rest of us!

Grow up

Kaleun

[Marhkimov]

Sorry gibbs... I didn't mean to bash or anything. I think I'll just be quiet next time.

[Type941]

I'd say this should be the message of this mess: In short, in future don't be LAZY and include all the work you haven't done in the credit readme. thtats all. It's so simple that indeed it's stupid to actually debate about this.


And about not PMing.

Here's the thing. you do it in forum because this happens to be a very good forum which lacks flame wars, etc, and this is probably the first one (except the X1 thing). But the issue is more important than a PM. Many should read this, so they understand what's considered ok or not by the public, so that, for example, I don't have to send a PM EVERY time that i see something i've done appear without any credit. So it had to be done here, well, it wasn't out of nothing, there was a reason for it. So you can agree to disagree, but to say you are fed up with tracking things down is just laziness.

[martes86]

Orgy, don't post such pictures again here in Subsim. Next time, as I've previously said, I'll delete your entire post with no warning.

[oRGy]

Hi;

My apologies for offending people with the "Arguing on the internet is retarded" picture. I honestly thought it would be a rather standard internet joke by now - but apparently not.

I also apologise for losing my temper at anybody - this was unprofessional. And of course it should be standard knowledge and noted that we should credit each other for work and maintain a good working attitude first, and avoid being lazy about attributions.

As Kaleunt says, there's no point in degrading ourselves for minor internet spats, especially myself - as a the author of a major mod (and a professional game developer), I should be setting an example and not the opposite!

:oops:

Anyway, lets hope thats an end of all this flaming and everyone can get on in a cooperative attitude in future.

Ciao,