damn - killed, but don't want to be dead

[Keelbuster]

I've got a dilemma. I have (had) a great team, on their 22nd patrol in June '42. Last 3 have been out of the La Spezia and we've been using this time as a vacation from the insanity out on the atlantic. This last patrol we ran into a task force in perfect weather (CN39) - King George and 4 destroyers. I sunk KG with 4 torpedoes at 3km. It was beautiful. I escaped without a single DC. Which is all fine and dandy.

On the way home from our distant patrol grid (CO69), I was between Valletta and Bengasi in that space that is supposed to be air-cover free (by the map that comes with the game). Well, at 512 time compression my warning thing went red and an aircraft was spotted. I jumped to the keyboard and pressed periscope, then crash dive. U-47 dove hard and was almost under (tail showing) when one of those wide-winged planes dropped 6 DCs on her. It was bad. Front four compartments were red and flooding. Radio room team dead. I hit periscope depth adn started allocating damage teams. I have a great damage team - 4 people with repair skill. Now, we would have been able to fix the damage, but we were sinking - fast. I was still at flank speed, and we were going down at 11 knots. Bad bad bad. 180m. 220m. Fast - speeding up. At about 340 (i think), the bow compartment crushed and the boat followed.

U-47 lost. I can't handle that. I've loaded. But now I'm feeling guilty - i had intended to play for keeps, and was, up until now.

I want to finish the war - it's mid-1942 and i feel like it's only begun (22 patrols until now).

What would you guys do, in my fish-eaten shoes?

K.B.

[wetwarev7]

I know, it's tough, but you just gotta let it go........

I just lost my first carreer (16 patrols I think) recently, and it was really hard to start over, but now that I have, I have become equally fond of my new ship and crew, and strive even harder not to become fish bait. I think it's much more intense knowing that if you die, you die, and you just have to start over. Saying it is one thing, having lost a ship and crew really brings it home.....

[FERdeBOER]

Everybody wants to survive the war... :yep:

[Marhkimov]

Just remember that real captains had no choice over the matter... So what if they wanted to live??? :yep: :yep: :yep:

[Serverdaemon]

Bad loss...

Only thing you can do is learn from it...

- Full reverse all engines (if you're going down bow first)
-Blow all ballast
-Set to "Surface"
-Have one of your officers qualified as repair, (Helps a LOT), and have him join the repair team.

Just my $.02 worth...

Good luck on your next sortie

S

[SteamWake]

War is hell.

But this is a game :yep:

Ultimatly it is up to you. But trust me if you decide to start anew each encounter will hold much more "weight" than they did before.

[Twelvefield]

As long as you don't delete the career files, you can always go back to your prized crew. I definitely play dead-is-dead, and it's become a bit like second nature. I have recently had a string of careers where the ship only lasts a mission or two before we get killed. I never even thought of re-trying them. Still, my original 16-mission crew under Kaleun Mannfred von Leermiester is still there if I ever want to go back.

[The Avon Lady]

If you go back in your career to restore your life, you're gonna go to hell.

So, what's the difference! :rotfl:

[Keelbuster]

intense. I agree. I've said goodbye to Carl and his crew, and the wonderful killing machine that was U-47. If you guys wanna check out the words I wrote for me boys, check out:

www.dontgethurt.ca

scroll down a bit to Latest Glogs, and you'll see the sad headline.

k.b.

[wetwarev7]

intense. I agree. I've said goodbye to Carl and his crew, and the wonderful killing machine that was U-47. If you guys wanna check out the words I wrote for me boys, check out:

www.dontgethurt.ca

scroll down a bit to Latest Glogs, and you'll see the sad headline.

k.b.

Heartwrenching...... :cry:

[Wolfram]

I admire your loyalty to your crew but the others I agree with - start over.

I checked your glog, nice..... :cool:

:lurk:

[Kissaki]

It's true that the actual commanders had no choice. But if they did, you can bet your hiney they'd reload. :arrgh!:

This is a game. I'm a sore loser. You do the math. :rock:

[BettingUrlife]

The chances of making it through the entire campaign without getting sunk is pretty low, either you have to be more than very good, or more than very lucky. I don't have any qualms about reloading the first time through a game, I'd like to see the endgame screen at some point (even though SH3's endgame screen leaves a lot to be desired). After seeing that, Ironman rules are okay.

[Kissaki]

What is the endgame screen? "Game over - you lose"? :roll:

Never played that far. I have a bunch of early-war savegames and just a few late war savegames. I always start in '39, and like the initial development.

[Average Joe]

>>>U-47 lost. I can't handle that. I've loaded. But now I'm feeling guilty - i had intended to play for keeps, and was, up until now.

I want to finish the war - it's mid-1942 and i feel like it's only begun (22 patrols until now).

What would you guys do, in my fish-eaten shoes?

K.B.

Another way to approach if ship and crew is lost; load your last save, exit patrol, 'return to base', and dismiss your entire (previously lost) crew. Then 'enlist' a brand-new crew. Re-purchase another sub if the renown is high enough. Then move-on to the next patrol.

(another thing to do is keep purchasing subs, until renown drops down to 1500 or so. Then there's no excess renown points).

For me this is the best way to deal with a lost crew and sub. Everything is lost, but the time-period stays the same. The enemy is tougher compared to early-war patrols. More challenging too because of a stripped-down sub, and a bunch of newly enlisted 'noobs' on my boat :()1:

[BettingUrlife]

The other reason I think it is okay to reload is that this game just presumes you dead automatically, unlike Aces of Deep. AoD had several options, I think (someone correct if I'm mistaken please), you could abandon ship (if you were on the surface or could manage to get there) and either be captured (your war is over, but at least you weren't dead) or even picked up and rescued by another German ship which I thought was a pretty cool feature of that game. I think this automatic death feature is one of the few weak points in this game (in my opinion).

P.S. I think the above poster, Average Joe has a pretty good solution that would make you feel a lot better if you decided to reload and still felt guilty about it though.

[Keelbuster]

Yea, i hear ya. Maybe POW is better... But in the case of my captain, he was certainly crushed in deep water. It's hard to rationalize a way out of that. As for the war year, I've solved that problem by starting a new campaign in 41. This gives me some time to train up a crew before the crazy air threats kick up. I'd like to get to the later years, but damn - the air power is so aggressive. Anyhow, I'll tell you how it goes with my new boy - Fritz Hertin. Har.

K.B.

[Lane]

Do you have a save you could go back to ? Just before you lost boat?
I made a save the other night just before I attacked Convoy just in case :D
Lane :D

[Trav_R]

I'm sure he's got plenty of saves, he just wants to be realistic. It makes it more fun for him when he knows that if he "dies" in the game, then that game is over. It makes everything count for more. He doesn't get bored taking out single, unescorted merchants, he savors them because he knows that his next encounter could be much tougher, and could be his last. A lot of people play this way, it's called "DiD" - Dead is Dead. I just started playing, and I'm considering starting over and playing that way now that I sorta have the hang of things, but I don't know if I really want to play that way yet. I want to do dangerous things like duke it out with airplanes and sneak into ports, and playing it as DiD means I would play a lot safer. Anyway, yeah he does have some previous saves but he's choosing not to go back to them.

[JScones]

The other reason I think it is okay to reload is that this game just presumes you dead automatically, unlike Aces of Deep. AoD had several options, I think (someone correct if I'm mistaken please), you could abandon ship (if you were on the surface or could manage to get there) and either be captured (your war is over, but at least you weren't dead) or even picked up and rescued by another German ship which I thought was a pretty cool feature of that game. I think this automatic death feature is one of the few weak points in this game (in my opinion).
The next release of SH3Cmdr attempts to fill this void by giving players the option of "marking" dead careers as surrendered (ie if you were surfaced when you were sunk for example). The created Personnel Files will acknowledge that the Captain surrendered to the Allies, as opposed to dieing at sea. Not as good as being able to do it in the game, but...

[The Avon Lady]

I'm a member at WaW (http://wolvesatwar.com/). We play with an honor system that the clock can never be turned back.

Earlier this week, Uboot 93, commanded by Oblt. Z. S Avon von Vonnegut, was sunk at sea, with all hands lost.

I'll post my final patrol's story soon.

[gdogghenrikson]

just reload a previos save

[svenks]

Well, er, um...

<Very small letters on>
I reloaded :oops:
<Normal letters ON>

I go in for dead is dead, but on the other hand last wednesday:
March 1940. Big convoy chased and heard. Not sighted due to fog, but it appears that I'm right in front of it. Hmm, could be bad since an escort is almost sure to come close, so I turn north. Sure enough, Warship at xxx dist yyy. Up scope - whoops can't be far away! Down scope, silent running, new depth 50. He's getting closer! Try to turn tail towards him, 1 knot - and then I accidentally hit Enter! Torpedo away since I havent got much deeper. He heard that...the rest is history. But I convinced myself it was OK to reload just-this-once, since this woulden't happen in real life: The captain orders Shoot by mistake, and doesnt react when his order is confirmed, the doors open and the shot goes off...

Yeah, I know - that was pathetic - but such a big convoy - just this once??? Please??? :roll:

BRGDS
Sven

[Wolfram]

...Earlier this week, Uboot 93, commanded by Oblt. Z. S Avon von Vonnegut, was sunk at sea, with all hands lost....
:hmm: a relative of Kurt?

:up:

:lurk:

[The Avon Lady]

...Earlier this week, Uboot 93, commanded by Oblt. Z. S Avon von Vonnegut, was sunk at sea, with all hands lost....
:hmm: a relative of Kurt?
Maybe I should have used the name Kissinger. :hmm:

[Wolfram]

@ Avon Lady

:D

:lurk:

[Laughing Swordfish]

Man, that was an epic and brilliantly written link from Keelbuster which I've just read.

I was enthralled , and couldn't agree more.

Damn, I nearly went out and bought the game again!

Laughing Swordfish

[Twelvefield]

I don't know if Dead-Is-Dead has made me a more cautious Kaleun... I suppose it has. I can recall a few situations where I have decided that it's better to run away and fight another day, leaving behind some big, juicy convoys. But as I have said before, I have had a real string of 1 and 2 mission careers. I don't think I'm making obvious mistakes, but when I get killed, it's due to greed for targets. In a morbid, fascinating way in the SHIII game, I am beginning to define that awful line that we all must cross in real life where one moment we are counted among the living, and then the next moment something happens that means we will irrevocably be dead. Brrr!

That being said, if you are making a mechanical mistake due to the way the game is programmed, like accidentally hitting the Enter key, then I would suggest it is possible to make an exception to the Dead-Is-Dead rule. Although, accidents happen all the time at sea, and I would expect that many of them would be fatal, even if all that happened was that the wrong button got pressed. Certainly, after you decide for yourself if you should reload after accidentally pressing the wrong key, were I you, I would consider modding my SHIII keyboard layout.

[klmmicro]

I am still a noob on my first career, but I am playing the Dead is Dead rule. I have 14 deployments so far and it is sort of funny you bring up walking away from target rich waters Twelvefield. I found myself doing that last night when I started counting the destroyers gaurdinga convoy I was eying. With only 75% hull integrity left I decided to err on the side of caution.

I would hate to have to start "over" again, but that seems like the "ethical" thing to do.

[Sailor Steve]

(another thing to do is keep purchasing subs, until renown drops down to 1500 or so. Then there's no excess renown points).

For me this is the best way to deal with a lost crew and sub. Everything is lost, but the time-period stays the same. The enemy is tougher compared to early-war patrols. More challenging too because of a stripped-down sub, and a bunch of newly enlisted 'noobs' on my boat :()1:
Or you could just use SHIII Commander, which allows you to start a new career any month of the war.

[quote="svenks"]and then I accidentally hit Enter! Torpedo away...
You can change that so 'Enter' doesn't fire torpedoes anymore.

[ICBM]

When I die in SH3 I feel somewhat 'down' for some time. I can't just start over again right away. I need some time to realize that I just lost my boat,crew and career.. :cry:

[Keelbuster]

Thanks swordfish - glad you liked the tale. I had a lot of love in that boat and now it's all soggy.

About Did, yeah - I exempt myself from glitches, crashes, or mistakes unrelated to _decisions_ I make as a commander. The accidental torpedo firing is a borderline case. In some mods, the Enter key is disabled which I am very happy about. On the other hand, there's a bug I mentioned once to do with setting a nav waypoint - it automatically sets you to 'ahead standard' which can be a fatal move in some cases. Not sure how to deal with those situations. If an escort finds you and kills you, I would say that yer dead. If a plane bombs you, even in TC, yer dead. My first encounter with a mine, I was killed under 512 TC, and I exempted myself, because the mines had been introduced by a mod and I didn't know they were even possible. Now I avoid high TC in mine-probable areas. And hence now if I hit a mine, DiD.

That leaves crashes, accidental Alt-tabs, power failures, girlfriend intervention as possible grounds for exemption.

Enjoying this thread - Twelvefield - that's a really cool concept - identifying your risk/comfort threshold in the context of a war simulation. I think you are getting to the heart of this exciting issue with that line of thought.

klmicro - good work on those patrols. Keep it up, and keep safe - remember that in 1942, day time is death for surfaced subs. That's what got me on patrol 21.

KB

:arrgh!:

P.S. U-77 is my new sub (VIIC out of Nazaire, '41), and on Patrol 3. I'll let you know if anything hairy happens.

[wetwarev7]

, there's a bug I mentioned once to do with setting a nav waypoint - it automatically sets you to 'ahead standard' which can be a fatal move in some cases. Not sure how to deal with those situations.

I allways remove my nav from duty(put him on repair duty) while in combat

[Marhkimov]

I once accepted DiD when I TC'd straight into port at flank speed. That's the price I paid for falling asleep at the helm... But by golly, those damn WO's are useless. For God sakes, wake me up if we are about to DIE!!! :stare:


Oh well, after I screamed at my computer for a few minutes, it was actually pretty funny. :D

[Trav_R]

If you count TC'ing into a mine as a valid reason to allow your career to end, how do you avoid random death without going at 1x TC all the time and constantly keeping an eye out for mines? Since I'm considering doing a DiD type game, these are some of the issues I'm going to have. There's no way I'm playing at 1x TC the whole time, and naturally there are serious risks at high TC that wouldn't be present in real life. So, is there something you as a captain can do to make it safe to cruise at high TC without worrying about mines/planes? If not, then there's no way I'm going to let my career end just because of a random TC-induced death. That's a little hard for me to swallow.

For instance, TC'ing into port and hitting a wall, I would definitely reload my save on that. Although it was a mistake that you could have avoided, it's so inconceivable that I just couldn't let my career go like that. I can imagine the conversation if it happend in real life back in WWII. "Did you hear about Herr Trav? He sailed his sub straight into the wall at Brest at 17 knots! His watch crew was aware of the collision course with the wall for approximately an hour and a half, but they didn't bother to tell him." I would have a hard time letting that career go because of something like that. Matter of fact, I think any TC-related death would be tough for me not to reload, mainly because I wasn't in control at the time and it would piss me off dying due to a computer introduced element that would not have happened in real life.

An exception to this rule would be dying while TCing in a dangerous situation. For example, if I was TC'ing while waiting for a destroyer to lose contact with me, and got DC'd and died, that would be my own fault for being impatient, and I'd let that career go.

So, back to my original question after giving my 2 cents. Why do you consider TC related deaths to be valid reasons to let the career end? How do you justify it? I'm not calling you a moron, you sound like a pretty reasonable guy and I'm sure you have reasons. I want to know them so I can consider them for myself.

[Keelbuster]

hmmm. It drops TC when your crew spots a plane (unless yer at 1024 and there's no reason to be there). So, planes can be dealt with. Dive time is the really important factor, as it was in real life. That's a genuine Uboat threat, if you want DiD, you want to think about it.

As for the wall....there's no excuse.

KB

[Trav_R]

Yeah I agree about the wall, that's some pretty negligent submarining :yep: From what you said about the game slowing time down when planes are spotted, as long as it is instant and not a second is lost after slowing down, I'll go with that too. I'm still stuck on mines though. Are they in vanilla or do they just show up with mods? If and when they do enter the game, are they just randomly placed about or are they *only* near harbors? If they're only in "hot spots" then I'll be at 1x or very low TC anyway, and I'll be sure to keep an eye out for them, and this won't be an issue for me anymore. Thanks for understanding and thanks for replying!

[ENtek-IO]

Well, i tend to plot the whole sortie ahead, the whole patrol is ploted inclusive the last waypoint at a spot in front of the harbour entrance where ,when the engine gets disengaged, i gently float into the docking zone.
If i need to deviate from the curse, i do it via the helm/ruder control.
I made it a habit to
setting the engines to Kleine fahrt voraus , that way they dont go auto standard ahead,if i feel the need to follow the waypoints again.
And i spare me embarrasing moments with the escorts.;)

[svenks]

slowing time down when planes are spotted, as long as it is instant and not a second is lost

Ah, but therein lies the problem: The time that goes from the aircraft sights YOU and to your crew discovers HIM: That will not bring you out of TC, and an aircraft can cover a LOT of distance at TC > 32.

What I do is to have the 'Danger Indicator' (don't remember it's true name) enabled. The second it changes color, I go to TC=1. I got to the bridge and start looking for him. If I see him OR hear him (has only happened once in medium fog - he must have flown right over me at low altitude), THEN I do something about it! Otherwise I will just wait for my nearsighted crew to alert me!

BRGDS
Sven

[Sailor Steve]

In the Main.cfg you can change the times. Anytime anything is spotted mine instantly drops to x1. That didn't help me last night when my watch crew spotted an armed tug-at 800 meters! What did save us was a quick crash dive and his poor shooting.

[Trav_R]

Well most of my questions are answered now, and I'll definitely have to drop that time down to 1x in the Main.cfg. Only thing left is still the minefields. I'd like to have an idea of when I need to be on alert for them, ya know?

[Keelbuster]

Trav,

there's a post somewhere on minefield whereabouts. If you really want to know, you could load the campaign file in the editor and see them all.

Here's what I know:

Somehwere in 1940 they mine the channel and the east coast of england. So, you can't really get close to the shoreline. You can still get through the channel, but there are mines, so it's a bit dicey. Otherwise, ports are mined and subneted. At some point they mine the **** out of the north sea around scotland making it hard to get from the north sea to the atlantic without taking a risk.

kb

[Trav_R]

Do the mines only come with a mod or are they in vanilla too? I'm asking because I had a random explosion that caused some minor damage to my stern area while I was just cruising about 75km off England's coast, and I assume it was a mine.

[Keelbuster]

sounds like it. where?

and no - vanilla - few mines. RuB = MINES

[zombiewolf]

...Earlier this week, Uboot 93, commanded by Oblt. Z. S Avon von Vonnegut, was sunk at sea, with all hands lost....
:hmm: a relative of Kurt?

:up:

:lurk:

Whoa I am tripping I asked the same question somehwer else :|\

[Trav_R]

The only "big" mod I've installed is Harbour Traffic 1.46. I haven't checked out RuB enough to decide whether I want it or not yet, and I need a new vid card before I add too much to my game anyway. It's slow enough getting in/out of port as it is with the harbour mod. Anyway, I noticed the harbour mod put some mines around my port of Kiel, but I have as yet to notice any anywhere else.

[Keelbuster]

Actually, RuB isn't too hard on the graphics. I don't have the harbour traffic mod because of the slowdown. i

About mines, hmmm, I'm pretty sure they came with RuB. I played a campaign without RuB and never ran into mines despite being wickedly aggressive. I suppose we could figure this out by checking the campaign before and after in the editor.

KB

[von Buelow]

Keep going if this is your first go at it... until you cant stand it! :yep:

Then, you can play dead-is-dead on your next command(s) :dead:


That's what I'm doing :rock:

[ENtek-IO]

Well, i dont accept stupid tc kills,if that happens i dont touch anything exept for the windows key to minimize SH, and then i kill the sh3 thread via task manger.
After that i reload the last save game.
My time is to valuable to loose hours if not days due to Software related difficulties.
IF i go down in realtime or up to tc 8 i take the bitter pill.